The myth of 'the happy hooker' is dispelled

Flower124

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5376077/Amsterdam-call-time-myth-happy-hooker.html

A female prostitute in Amsterdam speaks out about being trafficked, being held against her will, forced to have sex with out condoms for 12 hours a day, and speaks of people urinating on her and hurtig her and beating her. Very sad.

Dr_serious2

One person's experience is hardly proof that it is a myth.

It is unfortunate what she went through but prostitution should be legal. What purpose does it serve to make it illegal for two adults to have sex for money?

Fr_Dougal

Maybe you should speak to this happy hooker, OP. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057719737

anewme

I read that this morning earlier and thought it very sad.

It was a lot more than one persons experience.

The ad with the dancers was very very powerful..

Another horrible story in the news was this one.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5540224/romania-pimp-brothers-metal-balls-penis-rape-more-painful/

Odyssey 2005

Happy memories reading Xaveria Hollanders book

eviltwin

Well she was trafficked so I imagine being raped daily wouldn't make her happy. Maybe compare it to the experience of a woman or man who has chosen to do the job of their own free will.....

c.p.w.g.w

Sure all nail technician's are trafficked sure if we are looking at one story

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/02/trio-trafficked-girls-work-nail-bars-jailed-slavery-laws-uk

Flower124

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

One person's experience is hardly proof that it is a myth.

It is unfortunate what she went through but prostitution should be legal. What purpose does it serve to make it illegal for two adults to have sex for money?

She was working in a country where prostitution was legal. She was held illegally and was working against her will. So making prostitution legal did not work for her.

everlast75

I'd say there's at least one happy hooker in Ireland after the win yesterday...

Flower124

eviltwin wrote: »

Well she was trafficked so I imagine being raped daily wouldn't make her happy. Maybe compare it to the experience of a woman or man who has chosen to do the job of their own free will.....

The point is that many of these people are trafficked and are working against their will.

One eyed Jack

Flower124 wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5376077/Amsterdam-call-time-myth-happy-hooker.html

A female prostitute in Amsterdam speaks out about being trafficked, being held against her will, forced to have sex with out condoms for 12 hours a day, and speaks of people urinating on her and hurtig her and beating her. Very sad.

I don't think the idea of the happy hooker was ever a myth in the conventional sense of the word, so there was never really anything to dispel, and nothing has been dispelled by one persons account of their experiences, whether they were either positive or negative. It's long been widely acknowledged that the sex industry is rife with misery and exploitation, but it is also a fact that there are people who exist who will never acknowledge that perspective of the industry exists, because it ruins the fantasy. That's not to mention the number of people who simply don't care that the sex industry is rife with misery and exploitation, for some people that's exactly what they get off on, is having that power over other people to exploit them.

eviltwin

Flower124 wrote: »

She was working in a country where prostitution was legal. She was held illegally and was working against her will. So making prostitution legal did not work for her.

Why are you surprised? There will always be people who exploit others for profit. How does making it illegal for everyone help people like that lady? The exploitation will still exist.

Flower124

Flower124 wrote: »

She was working in a country where prostitution was legal. She was held illegally and was working against her will. So making prostitution legal did not work for her.

Working as a postman is legal. Should we make it illegal if a story comes out today that a postman was kidnapped while delivering the mail?

Jack Kanoff

Flower124 wrote: »

She was working in a country where prostitution was legal. She was held illegally and was working against her will. So making prostitution legal did not work for her.

Nothing to do with prostitution...she's a sex slave... very, very different things.

RustyNut

Flower124 wrote: »

She was working in a country where prostitution was legal. She was held illegally and was working against her will. So making prostitution legal did not work for her.

So if the law as it stands was enforced she would have been saved.
If prostitution was illegal how would that have helped this woman?
How many otherwise law abiding people would be criminalised for having fully concentual sex if prostitution was made illegal?

Neyite

Flower124 wrote: »

She was working in a country where prostitution was legal. She was held illegally and was working against her will. So making prostitution legal did not work for her.

Then the laws need to target traffickers and pimps. Life sentences for those who enslave and torture others for money. Make pimping of others illegal. Seize all their assets and put it towards healthcare for sex workers.

Prostitution will unfortunately always exist. But the way forward is to let the workers be independent and self employed with licences, health checks, security, and maybe even a union with standardised pricing.

Galwayguy35

Flower124 wrote: »

She was working in a country where prostitution was legal. She was held illegally and was working against her will. So making prostitution legal did not work for her.

Women are trafficked into Britain and Ireland as well, both countries were prostitution isn't legal.

Cases like this are terrible but overall I think the system in Holland works where most of the sex workers are operating in a safe legal environment.

strandroad

I seriously wonder what would "happy hooker" people say upon hearing that their daughter is gearing up for the career? Interning as a sugar baby? Sure if it's such a happy profession.

Prostitution can be just a job if legalised but the "happy hooker" myth requires some serious blinkers as to what it actually entails.

anewme

Education and respect is also key for the next generation.

Different conversation I know but as my sister recently had to have had an open conversation with her 2 daughters as to why they used to go Greyhound racing with Granda and we don’t go any more.

Maybe teach children as they grow up to respect the other sex, it’s not ok for gangs of lads to go to Amsterdam and piss on a Prozzie for a laugh.

I believe we don’t realize now, but we will look back in time and see these years as a massive era of change for women.

The fall of Harvey Weinstein is the trigger point for this and is a historic milestone.

Ulysses Gaze

Flower124 wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5376077/Amsterdam-call-time-myth-happy-hooker.html

A female prostitute in Amsterdam speaks out about being trafficked, being held against her will, forced to have sex with out condoms for 12 hours a day, and speaks of people urinating on her and hurtig her and beating her. Very sad.

Banning prostitution will not stop trafficking cases such as this happening.

The Happy Hooker myth is a construct of Hollywood anyway.

biko

Why don't people focus on the problems at home?
We have plenty trafficking and sham marriages here, no need to read about Dutch? prostitutes in English newspapers.

Harry Palmr

The Happy Hooker was written by Xaviera Hollander in the early 70s and was very much her life and no one elses. It's not a term that should be applied to the sex for sale business.

Fann Linn

Didn't think anyone took the Daily Mail seriously.

Galwayguy35

At least in Holland they made it legal because they know banning something won't put a stop to it.

People have always been willing to pay for sex and will continue to do so long after all of us here are dead and gone.

If it's legal people will feel safe working in the sex industry and if they experience problems they can go to the police.
It's worth mentioning that Romanians are doing the same thing to girls here where it's not legal.

Here in Ireland we just pretend things like prostitution don't exist and refuse to even debate the issue.

Ulysses Gaze

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

At least in Holland they made it legal because they know banning something won't put a stop to it.

People have always been willing to pay for sex and will continue to do so long after all of us here are dead and gone.

If it's legal people will feel safe working in the sex industry and if they experience problems they can go to the police.
It's worth mentioning that Romanians are doing the same thing to girls here where it's not legal.

Here in Ireland we just pretend things like prostitution don't exist and refuse to even debate the issue.

Exactly.

And anyway, who are we to be telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies?

If they want to enter the job, no matter what we think of it, we should make it as safe as possible for them.

anewme

biko wrote: »

Why don't people focus on the problems at home?
We have plenty trafficking and sham marriages here, no need to read about Dutch? prostitutes in English newspapers.

So no Irish people go to Amsterdam and visit prostitutes? So as a result could be supporting this.

Very small minded parochial attitude.

And if you actually read the article before you commented you will know she wasn’t Dutch.

GarIT

Neyite wrote: »

standardised pricing.

Can we standardise the price of houses and cars too? There are some prostitutes you couldn't pay me enough to go near and others I'd happy give up my life savings for a relationship with.

anewme

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Women are trafficked into Britain and Ireland as well, both countries were prostitution isn't legal.

Cases like this are terrible but overall I think the system in Holland works where most of the sex workers are operating in a safe legal environment.

I think the point of the article is though that it’s not a safe legal environment. Legal yes, safe, no. And what would be the definition of “most”

By making it legal, it’s allowed the traffickers and pimps operate under a cloak of legality. But it hasn’t made it safe and protected the vulnerable like those in the article. It’s protected the punters, not the workers.

Agree that there needs to be stronger sentences for traffickers.

The article references the increasing number of trafficking cases coming up before the Dutch Courts so much so that they are finding it necessary to look into and possibly revise the legislation. They are doing this not because it’s working, but because clearly it’s not.

One eyed Jack

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Exactly.

And anyway, who are we to be telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies?

If they want to enter the job, no matter what we think of it, we should make it as safe as possible for them.

Making prostitution legal hasn't had the intended effect of making prostitution safer either for the women or the men who work in the industry. It's not a question of telling people what they can and can't do with their own bodies, people are free to do whatever they want with their own bodies, and other people are free to campaign for an end to prostitution by means of not allowing for it to be facilitated by the State. If people still want to do whatever they want to do with their own bodies, knowing that the State does not facilitate prostitution, then that's their responsibility, and not something that the rest of society can be held responsible for.

Obi_Wan_Kenobi

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Maybe you should speak to this happy hooker, OP. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057719737

Exactly, doubt she will though - it won't fit her narrative.

Yamanoto

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

And anyway, who are we to be telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies?

Odd how so many proponents of 'Repeal the 8th' on the Left are the very same folks who'd shout down, dismiss & label as gullible victims, women who freely choose sex work as something that suits them for however long they so wish.

Seems you can only be a strong & independent woman, once it fits in nicely with prevailing third-wave orthodoxy.

Ulysses Gaze

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Making prostitution legal hasn't had the intended effect of making prostitution safer either for the women or the men who work in the industry. It's not a question of telling people what they can and can't do with their own bodies, people are free to do whatever they want with their own bodies, and other people are free to campaign for an end to prostitution by means of not allowing for it to be facilitated by the State. If people still want to do whatever they want to do with their own bodies, knowing that the State does not facilitate prostitution, then that's their responsibility, and not something that the rest of society can be held responsible for.

As compared to prostitution being illegal?

Do you have any proof of this? Any statistical evidence to back it up?

Blitzkrieger

Flower124 wrote: »

The point is that many of these people are trafficked and are working against their will.

Prove it.

The last time we were told about the huge numbers of women being traded as sex slaves in Holland it was made up. They found a few, reasoned that there must be some they didn't find, then picked a massive number out of the air that suited their agenda. It doesn't work that way.

Prove it.

There are women (and men) who want to be prostitutes. Without being forced or coerced. Who are intelligent and educated and have other options and still want to be paid (large amounts of) money for sex. Not everybody in the world shares the moral view that this is wrong. I think they should be allowed to do what they want with their own body.

Now if this was only about slavery and trafficking we'd all be supporting you. If you tell us how we can help fight against that rather than preach at us we'll all be a lot happier.

GritBiscuit

Yamanoto wrote: »

Odd how so many proponents of 'Repeal the 8th' on the Left are the very same folks who'd shout down, dismiss & label as gullible victims, women who freely choose sex work as something that suits them for however long they so wish.

Seems you can only be a strong & independent woman, once it fits in nicely with prevailing third-wave orthodoxy.

Is it any odder than the pro-prostitution/anti-repeal lot? Or the pro-8th/anti-welfare lot? Or any of the other weird and wonderful pairings voters convince themselves aren't at complete odds with each other?

Meh. Politics is chock full of hypocrites. IME wanting both legal, legislated for and safer would be the prevailing view of the repealers I know.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

I think the point of the article is though that it’s not a safe legal environment. Legal yes, safe, no. And what would be the definition of “most”

I find it interesting the way that people believe that just because something is made legal, that it will suddenly become safe for those involved. The legalisation of prostitution was a first step, with many more steps involved in providing protection to those people involved. But it's far better than what went before.

By making it legal, it’s allowed the traffickers and pimps operate under a cloak of legality. But it hasn’t made it safe and protected the vulnerable like those in the article. It’s protected the punters, not the workers.

Really depends on how it's done. There are major differences in how, say Germany approaches its prostitution (which frankly is far bigger than Holland), compared to other countries.

And it's silly to believe that legalising prostitution protects the punters, not the workers. The workers now have legal rights, have the ability to register as a business, can call for police protection, have legal forms of redress against "punters" who break the law etc. Never mind that they won't be arrested and abused by the police themselves.

The article references the increasing number of trafficking cases coming up before the Dutch Courts so much so that they are finding it necessary to look into and possibly revise the legislation. They are doing this not because it’s working, but because clearly it’s not.

If the cultural and economic landscape of Europe wasn't changing, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but Europe is seeing unprecedented migration which floods countries with people living on the borders of our societies. Oh, sure the government makes the gesture of providing limited resources or rights to migrants, but if you look at the sex industry, those most at risk tend to be those from other countries, or with uncertain legal rights.

The legalised prostitution system isn't perfect. It needs to be improved upon, not scrapped. But legalised prostitution at least sets a system in place to do the research needed, and determine what needs to be done... although more likely people will continue wanting to push it into the background rather than actually dealing with the problems.

Hector Bellend

everlast75 wrote: »

I'd say there's at least one happy hooker in Ireland after the win yesterday...

Even they have to sell their arse every now and again

Pepefrogok

Why is prostitution illegal yet making a porn movie is not? So you can pay a woman to have sex but only if you video it and sell the video? Dosent make sense.

Day Lewin

You can't prove any of this except by interviewing the sex workers themselves, a right-across-the-board representative sample. And in countries where it is illegal - (a lot) they won't be very willing to tell.

Nor will they be very eager to report abuse, since they can be prosecuted: this general secrecy feeds right into the hands of pimps and traffickers.

It can be very good money for a service that is always in demand: it is madness imo to keep it illegal.
Safer for everyone if it is regulated - and then they can also pay tax!

ToddyDoody

...good name fo a rugby pub tho

Sleeper12

I've met a couple few escorts over the years. I owned a security company doing pubs and nightclubs and you meet all sorts. I've never met one that said that they didn't love the job or the job was great. Having said that I've never met one that didn't have a serious coke or drink problem.

My own thoughts is that deep down they dislike what they do and & dislike themselves for doing it. The drink & coke are their way of coping. That's my amateur shrink diagnosis anyway.

I've no idea about trafficking. The girls I met were all Irish. I'm all for letting them earn money that way if they want but they definitely weren't happy hookers. All had serious issues. The happy hookers thing is in the clients imagination imo. It is easier to fool yourself that you aren't exploiting someone by believing she loves her job

One eyed Jack

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

As compared to prostitution being illegal?

Do you have any proof of this? Any statistical evidence to back it up?

Do I have any proof that making prostitution legal hasn't had the intended effect of making prostitution safer? Well yes, the evidence in other countries has shown that it was a well intended social experiment that appears to have gone horribly wrong -


Does legalised prostitution increase human trafficking?


Abstract


This paper investigates the impact of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows. According to economic theory, there are two opposing effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalized prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market, increasing human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked women as legal prostitutes are favored over trafficked ones. Our empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows.

_Dara_

Yamanoto wrote: »

Odd how so many proponents of 'Repeal the 8th' on the Left are the very same folks who'd shout down, dismiss & label as gullible victims, women who freely choose sex work as something that suits them for however long they so wish.

Seems you can only be a strong & independent woman, once it fits in nicely with prevailing third-wave orthodoxy.

How many people have you met that hold both of the above stances?

I don’t think many of the above people think women working in prostitution are gullible, it’s more that it’s likely that even many women entering it of their free will are probably not happy about that. It’s likely hastened by desperate circumstances in many cases. That doesn’t sit well with many people understandably. I certainly don’t judge any prostitutes and I’ve had some up close encounters with some. I did and still do wonder about their lives though and what got them to that point.

Stonedpilot

Flower124 wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5376077/Amsterdam-call-time-myth-happy-hooker.html

A female prostitute in Amsterdam speaks out about being trafficked, being held against her will, forced to have sex with out condoms for 12 hours a day, and speaks of people urinating on her and hurtig her and beating her. Very sad.

What a stupid law. Suspect of being trafficked?. How would someone know. Field day in courts

snotboogie

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Do I have any proof that making prostitution legal hasn't had the intended effect of making prostitution safer? Well yes, the evidence in other countries has shown that it was a well intended social experiment that appears to have gone horribly wrong -


Does legalised prostitution increase human trafficking?


Abstract


This paper investigates the impact of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows. According to economic theory, there are two opposing effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalized prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market, increasing human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked women as legal prostitutes are favored over trafficked ones. Our empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows.

What an interesting place to end your quote.... why don't I finish it for you:

Naturally, this qualitative evidence is also somewhat tentative as there is no “smoking gun” proving that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect and that the legalization of prostitution definitely increases inward trafficking flows. The problem here lies in the clandestine nature of both the prostitution and trafficking markets, making it difficult, perhaps impossible, to find hard evidence establishing this relationship. Our central finding, i.e., that countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger reported incidence of trafficking inflows, is therefore best regarded as being based on the most reliable existing data, but needs to be subjected to future scrutiny. More research in this area is definitely warranted, but it will require the collection of more reliable data to establish firmer conclusions.
The likely negative consequences of legalized prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favor of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking (e.g., Outshoorn, 2005). However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalization of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes – at least those legally employed – if prostitution is legalized. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky “freedom of choice” issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services. A full evaluation of the costs and benefits, as well as of the broader merits of prohibiting prostitution, is beyond the scope of the present article.

One eyed Jack

snotboogie wrote: »

What an interesting place to end your quote.... why don't I finish it for you:.

I only cited the abstract as a starting point, feel free to quote the other 49 pages if you like. It wouldn't be any more interesting than it wasn't before. The point is that human trafficking is only one aspect of legalising prostitution, and it's one of the most negative aspects of legalising prostitution, so in that respect, it certainly doesn't make prostitution safer for women, it puts women at even greater risk.

I could reference citations all day on the subject, and still those who believe legalising prostitution would make it safer for the women and men who work in the sex industry, and no amount of evidence will overcome that belief because hey, they can find one happy hooker on twitter or whatever. Well yes, if someone is selling you a service, it stands to reason that they're going to say they're happy to sell you that service. They'd be a shìt salesperson otherwise and wouldn't make a whole lot of money.

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I've no idea about trafficking. The girls I met were all Irish. I'm all for letting them earn money that way if they want but they definitely weren't happy hookers. All had serious issues. The happy hookers thing is in the clients imagination imo. It is easier to fool yourself that you aren't exploiting someone by believing she loves her job

I doubt anyone is suggesting that they're skipping down the street singing happily on the way to work.

I've also known a variety of escorts or hookers in a number of countries. Some were young students paying their own way through university, students looking for extra cash, or young women with little to no education just looking to survive. None of them ever described what they did in glowing terms. They spoke about what they wanted from life, their ability to get it (through sex), and the "nice" men they met through it. I've seen them with their bruises too, although they tended to dismiss those experiences as being rare.

I also know women who have married ugly/older men for the financial support that they or their families received. Or the women that dated men for the financial benefits rather than any actual liking of the guy (not that they're honest about it).

I think anyone that is offering sex for money is going to have some issues. I remember two women I knew who said they couldn't orgasm (or gain any pleasure) from sex but saw sex as being a great way to make money. It's definitely warped from my perception, but then I haven't had to live their lives.

snotboogie

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I only cited the abstract as a starting point, feel free to quote the other 49 pages if you like. It wouldn't be any more interesting than it wasn't before. The point is that human trafficking is only one aspect of legalising prostitution, and it's one of the most negative aspects of legalising prostitution, so in that respect, it certainly doesn't make prostitution safer for women, it puts women at even greater risk.

I could reference citations all day on the subject, and still those who believe legalising prostitution would make it safer for the women and men who work in the sex industry, and no amount of evidence will overcome that belief because hey, they can find one happy hooker on twitter or whatever. Well yes, if someone is selling you a service, it stands to reason that they're going to say they're happy to sell you that service. They'd be a shìt salesperson otherwise and wouldn't make a whole lot of money.

I quoted the conclusion, which acknowledges the blatently obvious fact that if prostitution is legalized there will be greater incidences of reporting trafficking. It also talks about the better working conditions under legalization. This paper does not say that legalization makes prostitution less safe, it says that legalization means greater incidences of reporting of human trafficking.

suicide_circus

Ideally we all have a chance at the pursuit of happiness. But actually attaining happiness is guaranteed to no one.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I only cited the abstract as a starting point, feel free to quote the other 49 pages if you like. It wouldn't be any more interesting than it wasn't before. The point is that human trafficking is only one aspect of legalising prostitution, and it's one of the most negative aspects of legalising prostitution, so in that respect, it certainly doesn't make prostitution safer for women, it puts women at even greater risk.

Only in terms of trafficking, whereas multiple studies/reports show that prostitutes are significantly better protected, that violence & abuse decreases, HIV spread decreases, etc. It's also noteworthy that rape cases drop by quite a percentage when Prostitution zones are in effect... so it suggests that prostitution does reduce the risk to women in general.

It makes sense increase the measures that are effective against trafficking while also encouraging a better environment for the existing population of prostitutes, which frankly, are not going to disappear simply because the law does.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Only in terms of trafficking, whereas multiple studies/reports show that prostitutes are significantly better protected, that violence & abuse decreases, HIV spread decreases, etc. It's also noteworthy that rape cases drop by quite a percentage when Prostitution zones are in effect... so it suggests that prostitution does reduce the risk to women in general.

It makes sense increase the measures that are effective against trafficking while also encouraging a better environment for the existing population of prostitutes, which frankly, are not going to disappear simply because the law does.

Well yeah, I would agree that in an ideal society that there would be no issues with prostitution, and of course there are multiple studies which provide evidence that better conditions make prostitution safer for some women, but those studies not only ignore the fact that we don't live in an ideal society, they also ignore the fact that for the vast, vast majority of people, the outcomes of prostitution whether legal or illegal, are overwhelmingly negative.

Of course prostitution isn't going to disappear simply because the law is changed to make the purchase of sex illegal, but what that does do is it tends to make prostitution a less viable prospect for people who are considering putting themselves at risk to earn some fast, easy money, and of course it criminalises people who seek to exploit those people who are considering prostitution as a way to make money.

professore

I think any stats on trafficking in legal vs illegal countries are going to be suspect. The illegal countries tend to be the more conservative sweep it under the carpet type countries like Ireland that don't keep proper stats whereas the legal countries actually care about keeping accurate stats. For example in 1950s Ireland there was no child sex abuse according to the official stats but we know now how untrue that was.

It's not Illegal to shag someone else's wife or husband and destroy a family in the process, so I fail to see why consensual sex for money should be illegal. The state has no more right to be involved than in the case of infidelity, except maybe for tax collection.

For the same reason drug addicts or selling drugs in a controlled regulated environment shouldn't be criminalised either.

Trafficking and coercion absolutely - this needs to be stamped on hard.