VW and dieselgate: compelling watching on Netflix

n97 mini

Anyone with Netflix have a look at Dirty Money S01E01: Hard NOx. Absolutely shocking stuff. VW claimed to have discovered the "clean diesel" car holy grail which eventually, as we all know turned into "dieselgate".

Well worth watching but some key points (spoilers!):
- VW cars monitor the steering angle sensor. If the wheels are faced straight ahead, as they would be on a rolling road, the emissions control systems are engaged. As soon as the steering wheel is turned, it's a free for all... up to 80 times the stated level of harmful emissions.
- The big 3 German manufacturers (VW, BMW, Mercedes) colluded in cheating the system.
- Laterally all European diesel car makers got in on the act. They're all at it.
- EU legislation more or less mirrors US legislation... but... the EU legislation allows for emissions control systems to be dis-engaged "if there is a risk to engine components". Hence VW cars in their thousands are awaiting their fate at and abandoned Detroit Lions Stadium in the US as the govt ruled they had to be off the roads, but via the loophole they're still very much on the roads in Europe.

I would love to see the NCT emissions tests done with this dirt bag cars on a rolling road where the front wheels can be turned off dead centre.

unkel

The problem is not modern cars cheating though. On my first bike commutes in this country into the city centre in the early 90s I struggled for breath because of the Dublin bus diesel pollutants. Thankfully almost all cars were petrol at that stage. The Green Party :rolleyes: forced normal rational families to ditch their petrol car and go for a diesel car. The Irish Green Party has done more environmental damage than any other political party in history. They are directly responsible for many people unnecessarily dying.

Thankfully we are moving ahead now. Most cars will be EVs soon and most or all of the electricity needed to power all those EVs will be renewable soon enough. Great leap forwards it is!

Atlantic Dawn

n97 mini wrote: »

I would love to see the NCT emissions tests done with this dirt bag cars on a rolling road where the front wheels can be turned off dead centre.

The total insanity of the situation is not a single diesel cars emissions are actually measured at the NCT, crazy. How can the most harmful emitting fuel to human health be allowed avoid having the emission measured, pure EU scandal supporting German and French car jobs.

matrim

And people on here will be all for the eGolf or the i3. It's the same manufacturer and you can bet they are doing the similar things for electric cars. Whether it is increasing stated range, battery lifetime, or something else they will do any amount of number fudging to get around legislation and make their cars more attractive to people.

goz83

matrim wrote: »

And people on here will be all for the eGolf or the i3. It's the same manufacturer and you can bet they are doing the similar things for electric cars. Whether it is increasing stated range, battery lifetime, or something else they will do any amount of number fudging to get around legislation and make their cars more attractive to people.

While I agree with you, I have to add that neither of the electric related meddling will be harmful to everyones health

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

The Green Party :rolleyes: forced normal rational families to ditch their petrol car and go for a diesel car. The Irish Green Party has done more environmental damage than any other political party in history. They are directly responsible for many people unnecessarily dying.

While I acknowledge their massive responsibility in this, it's kind of like blaming the banks for reckless lending, without recognizing there was also reckless borrowing.

I had (and still have) the opportunity to buy a "chape" diesel, but didn't and never will. A walk down the main street in any town in Ireland is enough reason not to. In my personal experience the air quality in Dublin is far worse than it is in Chicago.

lawred2

unkel wrote: »

The problem is not modern cars cheating though. On my first bike commutes in this country into the city centre in the early 90s I struggled for breath because of the Dublin bus diesel pollutants. Thankfully almost all cars were petrol at that stage. The Green Party :rolleyes: forced normal rational families to ditch their petrol car and go for a diesel car. The Irish Green Party has done more environmental damage than any other political party in history. They are directly responsible for many people unnecessarily dying.

Thankfully we are moving ahead now. Most cars will be EVs soon and most or all of the electricity needed to power all those EVs will be renewable soon enough. Great leap forwards it is!

And the environmental cost of batteries?

Shefwedfan

matrim wrote: »

And people on here will be all for the eGolf or the i3. It's the same manufacturer and you can bet they are doing the similar things for electric cars. Whether it is increasing stated range, battery lifetime, or something else they will do any amount of number fudging to get around legislation and make their cars more attractive to people.

Show me one company in the World that doesn't have a history or something dodgy about them?

Don't say Tesla....just google and you might find some surprises under the huge PR engine it has

Shefwedfan

matrim wrote: »

And people on here will be all for the eGolf or the i3. It's the same manufacturer and you can bet they are doing the similar things for electric cars. Whether it is increasing stated range, battery lifetime, or something else they will do any amount of number fudging to get around legislation and make their cars more attractive to people.

Just to add. I am not saying VW etc are right. I am just making the point if you start to close down manufacturers with dodgy dealing then no car manufacturer would be left in World.

Also if you look at any multi national company in the World, they are all the same, all as crooked as a local dodgy video sales man, they just have millions to spend on PR to make them look good

goz83

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Just to add. I am not saying VW etc are right. I am just making the point if you start to close down manufacturers with dodgy dealing then no car manufacturer would be left in World.

Also if you look at any multi national company in the World, they are all the same, all as crooked as a local dodgy video sales man, they just have millions to spend on PR to make them look good

Their smugness was actually quite sickening. It’s disgusting that they are still getting away with it here, in Europe. The USA rightly put VW in their place. Back in Europe, not even a slap on the wrist in comparison.

Shefwedfan

goz83 wrote: »

Their smugness was actually quite sickening. It’s disgusting that they are still getting away with it here, in Europe. The USA rightly put VW in their place. Back in Europe, not even a slap on the wrist in comparison.

That's European law, we do not have the option to bring a class action against a company like VW but they do have in the US....

Also they won't get slap on wrist because it is Germany manufacturer. They are probably funding half the German government to make sure this goes away.....Merc/BMW are not far behind either

Colonel Claptrap

Interesting documentary. I learned a lot. But it was far too dramatized and one sided. The documentary maker had an agenda, which is fine. But I would have liked more of a focus on what needs to change in the car industry in the future.

Also the regular comparison with Nazism was a bit much. If you want people to sit up and take notice, your argument should be strong enough, without the need to point at VW and then point at Hitler.

Vronsky

I actually watched this at the weekend. I didn't think it told me anything new really.

Shefwedfan

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Interesting documentary. I learned a lot. But it was far too dramatized and one sided. The documentary maker had an agenda, which is fine. But I would have liked more of a focus on what needs to change in the car industry in the future.

Also the regular comparison with Nazism was a bit much. If you want people to sit up and take notice, your argument should be strong enough, without the need to point at VW and then point at Hitler.

Was it done my Americans?

The emissions regulations in the E.U are far less strict than the USA, this is the only reason there was no consequences for VW in Europe and they probably wouldn't get any fines here anyway even if they were in breech.

For decades the E.U car companies successfully lobbied against stricter emissions regulations and even after diesel gate there is nothing to indicate stricter emissions regulations because E.U legislators care only about companies and not the health of it's citizens.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

The emissions regulations in the E.U are far less strict than the USA, this is the only reason there was no consequences for VW in Europe and they probably wouldn't get any fines here anyway even if they were in breech.

For decades the E.U car companies successfully lobbied against stricter emissions regulations and even after diesel gate there is nothing to indicate stricter emissions regulations because E.U legislators care only about companies and not the health of it's citizens.

The Netflix documentary follows the standard line fed to the public

Whats interesting is to go back to the source documents that the CARB ( California Air Research Board ) published at the time 2014, 2015

The run up to the issue , was that sample road testing in Europe of Diesels , was done by a small consulting firm, it rigged up on the road testing of diesels

What that demonstrated is that on the road , these diesels emitted far more toxins then the NEDC allowed, The NEDC of course is a laboratory test, designed for approvals purposes and is mostly carried out at low speeds on a dynamometer .

The car industry then and now , knows full well as does the testing houses , that the law does not regulate on-road emissions , the car is free to do what it likes outside the NEDC . The NEDC was never designed as a means of regulating emissions, its original idea was to construct a standardised test bed, where manufactures specification claims could be compared , particularly on fuel consumption

The consultancy firm, having got nowhere in Europe, then approached the US and formed up with Virgina University and sought to perform the same tests on road diesels in the USA, where the NOX emissions standards are much lower ( half of Europe )

Since there was only a few cars on the US markets , they were forced to just cover VW and BMW X-series

What they discovered was that these cars ( the BMW was best) also exceeded the test results when on the road, sometimes very significantly


The University provided the details of the tests to CARB , arguably the most strict regime in the US

Now, the big difference in the US, is that the EPA does not require manufactures to perform independent emissions testing , ( which is required in Europe) , They allow manufactures to " self-certify " that they have applied the EPA test criteria and the car passed

On this basis , The 2014 golf/passat with NOX Trap technology was allowed to be imported into the US, i.e. VW self certified it passed ( there was NO need to have funny software )

ON a similar basis the 2015 Golf Passat was allowed an import license, This engine is cleaner and has a Adblue SCR system

ON receiving the data from Virginia , The CARB decided they would put the two VW cars through their own tests , applying the EPA criteria

What they found first was the 2014 car failed the test . They DID NOT discover any funny software mode . The car simply failed

They then wrote to VW ( this is matter of public record ) and requested a explanation and what VW intended to do

VW stated the cars needed an upgrade and that it would upgrade all 2014 cars , no mention was made of the 2015 car

VW did the upgrade too cars in California

CARB retested the 2014 and then also tested the 2015 car,
what they found was that the 2014 car still failed ( even though it was better) and the 2015 car also failed ( though only marginally ) . The CARB then extended the EPA test ( i.e. extended the time ) and discovered that after a certain length off time , the 2015 car greatly increased its emissions . Again no claim was made of the existence of a " defeat device " by CARB or the EPA

AT this stage the EPA wrote to VW ( USA) and said that in the absence of a satisfactory explanation , and the failure to fix the 2014 cars, the EPA was not prepared to approve the importation of the 2016 model, despite it again being self certified as within the limits by VW.

Now , VW was faced with a complete suspension of its north american business

Its clear that VW was falsifying the certification process, but to admit that would open VW to systemic corporate fraud claims , so VW dreamed up a plan they thought would mitigate the fallout.......

VW then wrote to the EPA , and admitted the existence of a " defeat device " designed to circumvent the EPA test cycle. Note that , at this time , the CARB and the EPA had not detected any such system.

Since VW , admitted, the device , initially blaming it on some " rogue engineers " , the EPA then wrote back accusing VW of breaking the EPA law and installing a defeat device

Nobody at this stage had verified such a thing existed

The whole issue of the 2014 car has been overlooked in this debacle , the car never did , didnt and wouldn't pass the test , defeat device or not , yet the media missed this whole point, that VW were in-effect fraudulently mis-certifying the car

To this date , noone has actually verified the existence of such software , there have been some attempts and various claims , but none has seen it , other then VW claiming it exists, even Bosch denied it.

for example , VW have never published the source code , showing the existence of the software

Hence , you can only conclude that the real crime , was corporate fraud is certifying the cars when VW clearly knew they could not pass the EPA test
the software issue was in my view a side show that VW dreamt up to deflect attention away from the bigger issue

The situation didnt apply in Europe at at all, as the cars passed the weaker NEDC test , carried out independently by test houses, and to this day I do not know why VW was required to bring in the engines for " upgrades ", I suspect it was a smoke screen that VW used to convince europe, that " it was doing something "

The bigger picture got lost in the media frenzy

(a) The evidence that there actually was a defeat device , this was never confirmed
(b) Given the 2014 Nox Trap car never passed , how did VW certify it in the first place
(c) why had the EPA allowed car companies to self certify anyway !

Nice bit of reading there BoatMad.

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

The bigger picture got lost in the media frenzy

(a) The evidence that there actually was a defeat device , this was never confirmed
(b) Given the 2014 Nox Trap car never passed , how did VW certify it in the first place
(c) why had the EPA allowed car companies to self certify anyway !

You've a lot of detail in there around timelines etc but ultimately they are changing cars here in how they operate. If, as you suggest, there is no confirmed defeat device they wouldn't be updating the software and causing EGR's and other issues to be going faulty as a result, which is happening!

Clearly their software updates are doing something. If all they needed to do was give the impression of removing a defeat device surely they could do that without stressing part of the emissions system?

I don't buy your suggestion around the defeat device not existing. As I understood it, the whole thing was originally blown open by an independent lab testing the car under normal test conditions and on the open road and it was found that the car detected the test by virtue of the fact that the steering wasn't moving in the lab. I don't have a link to hand but I'll go look for it again.

The self-certification is another issue as well, but I didn't think the existence of the defeat device was under question.

BoatMad

I don't buy your suggestion around the defeat device not existing. As I understood it, the whole thing was originally blown open by an independent lab testing the car under normal test conditions and on the open road and it was found that the car detected the test by virtue of the fact that the steering wasn't moving in the lab. I don't have a link to hand but I'll go look for it again.

There was NO independent lab testing of North american cars until CARB did so as a result of receiving information from International Council on Clean Transportation /Virginia University

Nor in the published correspondence did CARB claim it detected a defeat device, the first mention was a letter from VW admitting one existed

There is a huge amount of mis information , look at the Wiki entry on Dieselgate and then the one on International Council on Clean Transportation , both contradict each other


Again , you havent addressed the issue of the 2014 engine , which never passed , and which ultimately VW was forced to buy back in 2017 to remove them from the marketplace , that had nothing to do with software

The issue was the fraudulent certification of the cars in the first place, and thats why Oliver schmidt got 7 years jail

I never claimed the defeat device didnt exist , I merely claimed that its existence has never been proven , merely that VW admitted it.

Note again , vehicles are allowed to admit on the road , whatever they like, the tests only apply too the lab test. The new NEDC has a proposed OTR regulation , and its being hotly contested

Cordell

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-code-volkswagen-emissions.html

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

There was NO independent lab testing of North american cars until CARB did so as a result of receiving information from International Council on Clean Transportation /Virginia University

Nor in the published correspondence did CARB claim it detected a defeat device, the first mention was a letter from VW admitting one existed

There is a huge amount of mis information , look at the Wiki entry on Dieselgate and then the one on International Council on Clean Transportation , both contradict each other

So, is it your opinion that the defeat device doesn't exist and so the car tests the same in the test and on the road?

BoatMad wrote: »

Again , you havent addressed the issue of the 2014 engine , which never passed , and which ultimately VW was forced to buy back in 2017 to remove them from the marketplace , that had nothing to do with software

I don't know about that. As you said, self-certification is obviously not where it should be at. I'm not arguing that point, just that it seemed well documented to me that the cars behaved significantly differently under test relative to the open road... if that is true then thats all the evidence you need of a defeat device as it is the very definition of one.

I don't see why VW had to sell their TDI muck in the U.S anyway, fuel is much cheaper than here , it's a mistake that cost them a huge amount of money that could have been put into electric cars or building battery plants.

Cordell

I don't see why VW had to sell their TDI muck in the U.S anyway, fuel is much cheaper than here

Range is also a thing in the US, where you have very long drives. And without the range of the diesel the VW will be just another kind of Chevrolet.

Fine but that's not a big problem really as petrol stations are even in remote areas.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see why VW had to sell their TDI muck in the U.S anyway, fuel is much cheaper than here , it's a mistake that cost them a huge amount of money that could have been put into electric cars or building battery plants.

That was their idea how to get into the market. You simply need to find your niche and be best at it.

Cordell

Point is that this was their only advantage, the only selling and marketing point: a diesel that is economical, environmentally friendly but still fun to drive - approx quote of their marketing ****.

BoatMad

Cordell wrote: »

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-code-volkswagen-emissions.html

Very interesting , the actual paper they presented is here http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~klevchen/diesel-sp17.pdf and makes very interesting reading

This info is new to me as my interest was the documents released before 2017

turbbo

goz83 wrote: »

Their smugness was actually quite sickening. It’s disgusting that they are still getting away with it here, in Europe. The USA rightly put VW in their place. Back in Europe, not even a slap on the wrist in comparison.

Thats because they(VW) pay the bills - same way the US don't give a slap on the wrist to any of their big evil corps - it's called lobbying, US is far worse. It was a little bonus for them to make VW look unattractive - people might buy a chevy instead.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

So, is it your opinion that the defeat device doesn't exist and so the car tests the same in the test and on the road?

No , I accept it did , but that's not my point , the issue was the 2014 VW NOX trap DIDNT Ever pass the CARB run independent tests , yet VW had self certified that it did.

I don't know about that. As you said, self-certification is obviously not where it should be at. I'm not arguing that point, just that it seemed well documented to me that the cars behaved significantly differently under test relative to the open road... if that is true then thats all the evidence you need of a defeat device as it is the very definition of one.

Again , the law does not require the road output to be the same as the test , cars behave differently as per emissions in all sorts of driving cycles.

The definition of a defeat device is not that it changes the car
On the road versus the lab test , its that the device alters the car by specifically detecting the test ,

Remember people get confused , there is no requirement that the car obey the test results limits while on the road ,

What triggered the carb , was the car FAILED their tests , defeat device or not was irrelevant

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

No , I accept it did , but that's not my point , the issue was the 2014 VW NOX trap DIDNT Ever pass the CARB run independent tests , yet VW had self certified that it did.

OK. You're initial post seemed to suggest that the defeat device was all a ruse.

I don't think the defeat device is under question at all.

The self-certification is just another weakness in the whole process that allowed it to go undetected for years.

BoatMad wrote: »

Again , the law does not require the road output to be the same as the test , cars behave differently as per emissions in all sorts of driving cycles.

Sure, no issue there.

BoatMad wrote: »

The definition of a defeat device is not that it changes the car
On the road versus the lab test , its that the device alters the car by specifically detecting the test ,

True, but there isn't much in the difference between those two things. Clearly they had to have a defeat device for it to be OK under test but then MASSIVELY fail when on the road.

A manufacturer can't explain away those differences by saying "things are different on the road". EGR, DPF's, Cats etc are in operation all the time (or supposed to be). For it to massively fail on the road it meant the ECU was making a decision to improve fuel economy and performance at the expense of emissions.

When under test they did the opposite..... its a defeat device no matter how you slice and dice it.

josip

Can't wait until there's an EV at a similar price point and capability as our current diesel.
(I'd settle for half the range and 5 times longer to recharge/refuel)



https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jun/06/impossible-to-cheat-emissions-tests-show-almost-all-new-diesels-still-dirty

Shefwedfan

josip wrote: »

Can't wait until there's an EV at a similar price point and capability as our current diesel.
(I'd settle for half the range and 5 times longer to recharge/refuel)



https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jun/06/impossible-to-cheat-emissions-tests-show-almost-all-new-diesels-still-dirty

Im shocked with those finding's....

Imagine a fuel that was developed to drive tractors, boats, tanks etc would be dirty and not really meant for the every day car.....

Shefwedfan

Also the whole VW and dieselgate.....it wasn't just VW....it was every other manufacturer......

See below
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/23/diesel-cars-pollution-limits-nox-emissions

goz83

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Also the whole VW and dieselgate.....it wasn't just VW....it was every other manufacturer......

See below
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/23/diesel-cars-pollution-limits-nox-emissions

It was how poorly they handled it which caused the most damage to their rep. It's much cleaner when you put your hands up, provide an honest explanation and take the slap on the wrist. VW chose the ignore, head in sand and finally the fat lies approach.

Shefwedfan

goz83 wrote: »

It was how poorly they handled it which caused the most damage to their rep. It's much cleaner when you put your hands up, provide an honest explanation and take the slap on the wrist. VW chose the ignore, head in sand and finally the fat lies approach.

I know.....and they sacked the majority of people that did that.....

But I haven't seen any car manufacturer come out and admit they have an issue?

Most have run for the hills and let VW be the fall guy

goz83

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I know.....and they sacked the majority of people that did that.....

But I haven't seen any car manufacturer come out and admit they have an issue?

Most have run for the hills and let VW be the fall guy

I would be more inclined to believe that they retired with fat pay-offs and redistributed many of the "sacked" people. It was known at a very senior level and the disciplinary actions were purely for optics.

The other manufacturers are hardly beacons of light and were never going to stand up for a flogging. VW were the high profilers who boldly and knowingly falsely advertised their cars as clean.

They remain to be as corrupt as ever in my view. There is a reason they got whipped in the USA and basically got away without consequences in Europe and I am thinking some brown envelopes were thrown around.

The most important outcome from the #dieselgate was that public awareness of dirty diesels has increased a lot. Back in 2014 people who bought a diesel thought that they did a good thing but now there is doubt in everybody's mind. Those drive by tests have been conduced in US since 80's to identify drivers with defective cars but it's a good approach to help the manufactures like FIAT and Renault-Nissan to act if some of their models turn out to be worst of the dirty bunch.

I hope there will be recall letters or toxicity trade-ins from some makes soon.

unkel

Hold on a second. It is one thing to make cars that pollute more than they do in laboratory tests (all diesels are worse in real life), but another altogether to code some software to deliberately alter the running of the engine when it knows it is being tested. The latter is cheating / fraud. Only VW is known to have done this.

josip

unkel wrote: »

Hold on a second. It is one thing to make cars that pollute more than they do in laboratory tests (all diesels are worse in real life), but another altogether to code some software to deliberately alter the running of the engine when it knows it is being tested. The latter is cheating / fraud. Only VW is known to have done this.

Is the reason that only VW did this because they were the only manufacturer trying to sell diesel in the US?
And only in the US did they have to declare the Nox and PM emissions?

The fact is that if some cars have emissions of 2-3 times higher than the best for NOx using similar technology but show similar emissions during the official emission cycle testing, they indeed detect the test situation and run differently there and on the road. It allowed but extremely durrty on their behalf.

The two biggest culprits don't sell any diesel engines (excluding trucks which FCA do) in North America so were not caught the way VW did.

zilog_jones

josip wrote: »

Is the reason that only VW did this because they were the only manufacturer trying to sell diesel in the US?
And only in the US did they have to declare the Nox and PM emissions?

It probably was a significant factor, as their emissions requirements for diesel cars are stricter than the EU's. But the EU emissions standards have set NOx and PM requirements for diesels since 2000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Emission_standards_for_passenger_cars

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Hold on a second. It is one thing to make cars that pollute more than they do in laboratory tests (all diesels are worse in real life), but another altogether to code some software to deliberately alter the running of the engine when it knows it is being tested. The latter is cheating / fraud. Only VW is known to have done this.

Bosch developed the software....Bosch are the largest car parts supplier in the World....

They supply everyone.....the software was tested in Fiat...

But a lot of manufacturers used it and Bosch sold it to all of them.....

When Bosch was asked, they turned around and said they had no idea what the car manufacturers would do with the software :P

goz83

If I legally buy a shotgun and ammo from Kildare Army Supplies, walk out onto the street and start pumping lead into passers by.....who is responsible?

Shefwedfan

goz83 wrote: »

If I legally buy a shotgun and ammo from Kildare Army Supplies, walk out onto the street and start pumping lead into passers by.....who is responsible?

I think you need to talk to the NRA on that one:p

ELM327

goz83 wrote: »

If I legally buy a shotgun and ammo from Kildare Army Supplies, walk out onto the street and start pumping lead into passers by.....who is responsible?

Some bearded lefties would tell you that lenient gun control was responsible.


In the heads of those with sense, of course it is your fault, which is I assume the point you were making.

josip

goz83 wrote: »

If I legally buy a shotgun and ammo from Kildare Army Supplies, walk out onto the street and start pumping lead into passers by.....who is responsible?

Are you comparing like with like?
A gun can have legitimate, legal uses such as pest control on a farm.
What legitimate purpose could the Bosch cheat software have been used for?

Buying heroin from a dealer would be a better comparison.

grogi

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Bosch developed the software....Bosch are the largest car parts supplier in the World....

P

What software? Did anyone actually see it in action?

goz83

ELM327 wrote: »

Some bearded lefties would tell you that lenient gun control was responsible.


In the heads of those with sense, of course it is your fault, which is I assume the point you were making.

Well you know what they say about opinions.

And yes, that was my point more, or less.

josip wrote: »

Are you comparing like with like?
A gun can have legitimate, legal uses such as pest control on a farm.
What legitimate purpose could the Bosch cheat software have been used for?

Buying heroin from a dealer would be a better comparison.

I think most people can see the point of the analogy. I am well aware of the legitimate use of firearms. But perhaps most of us are not aware of the potential legitimate use of the software. One could argue the software was designed to reduce harmful emissions when the vehicle was being tested in order to protect the tester in an enclosed environment. Of course, I would call that BS and was not the intended use. However, it may be a legitimate use.

josip

Did Bosch include the cheat software at the request of VW or some other manufacturer?
Or did they include the software of their own volition and tell the manufacturers the capability was there in case they needed it for 'some reason'?

liamog

According to the Guardian article and the TRUE rating, every manufacturer is exceeding NOX levels.

It would appear that every manufacturer is playing the test instead of by the rules.
The only real difference with VW is that they tried to push diesels into the petrol US market.

It's clear that the real fault here is with the European testing system.

Shefwedfan

grogi wrote: »

What software? Did anyone actually see it in action?

Maybe read this: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22830414-800-how-did-volkswagen-cheat-in-tests-and-can-it-fix-affected-cars/