Upgrading a HKC SecureComm to a new panel

ukoda

I have the above alarm and it has 6 zone and 6 tamper terminals. I’m looking to upgrade this to a new panel, the one I have my eye on doesn’t have tamper terminals, it just has 9 zones.

Is it possible to wire the tampers into he zones or wire them all into 1 zone, or even not use the tampers at all? There’s also a “tamper return” terminal on the old board beside the Int/ext Bell terminals.

From what I can tell, the tamper circuits are for the case covers of the shock sensors on all the doors / windows.

Mr. G

ukoda wrote: »

I have the above alarm and it has 6 zone and 6 tamper terminals. I’m looking to upgrade this to a new panel, the one I have my eye on doesn’t have tamper terminals, it just has 9 zones.

Is it possible to wire the tampers into he zones or wire them all into 1 zone, or even not use the tampers at all? There’s also a “tamper return” terminal on the old board beside the Int/ext Bell terminals.

From what I can tell, the tamper circuits are for the case covers of the shock sensors on all the doors / windows.

Just to clarify the HKC SecureWatch 610 is probably the panel you have. The next upgrade would most likely be a HKC SecureWave 1070 panel or GSD/Siemens.

SecureComm is HKC's remote management offering/app. I don't think SecureComm works on the 6/10, but you can get a card for the 8/12 which is also a slightly newer (but EOL) panel.

Not sure what panel you are looking at. You can wire tamper in series not parallel. Yes it's possible to combine them and just have one tamper but IMO each zone should have its own tamper, please don't combine them! Are you sure you don't have tamper terminals on each zone?

Take a look at Siemens, GSD and HKC. Which panel to choose is a religious argument so have a look through this forum for discussions and comparisons.

ukoda

Mr. G wrote: »

Just to clarify the HKC SecureWatch 610 is probably the panel you have. The next upgrade would most likely be a HKC SecureWave 1070 panel or GSD/Siemens.

SecureComm is HKC's remote management offering/app. I don't think SecureComm works on the 6/10, but you can get a card for the 8/12 which is also a slightly newer (but EOL) panel.

Not sure what panel you are looking at. You can wire tamper in series not parallel. Yes it's possible to combine them and just have one tamper but IMO each zone should have its own tamper, please don't combine them! Are you sure you don't have tamper terminals on each zone?

Take a look at Siemens, GSD and HKC. Which panel to choose is a religious argument so have a look through this forum for discussions and comparisons.

Yes sorry it’s the SecureWatch.

The tamper terminals appear to be seperate if that’s what you mean, the panel is wired as:

Z1, Z2, Z3... etc and then T1, T2, T3... etc and Zones have 2 terminals as does the Tamper

Mr. G

ukoda wrote: »

Yes sorry it’s the SecureWatch.

The tamper terminals appear to be seperate if that’s what you mean, the panel is wired as:

Z1, Z2, Z3... etc and then T1, T2, T3... etc and Zones have 2 terminals as does the Tamper

Yep so each zone runs it's own tamper, so you replicate this in the new panel. The 6/10 has tampers so it's the same config.

Every zone should have a tamper always!

ukoda

Mr. G wrote: »

Yep so each zone runs it's own tamper, so you replicate this in the new panel. The 6/10 has tampers so it's the same config.

Every zone should have a tamper always!

The panel I want doesn’t have tampers, just 9 zones, is there a way to wire it in or is it just not compatible and I need a panel with tampers?

Mr. G

ukoda wrote: »

The panel I want doesn’t have tampers, just 9 zones, is there a way to wire it in or is it just not compatible and I need a panel with tampers?

What panel are you looking at?

Get a panel that has individual tampers for each zone. You should find one that is suitable for EN50131.

ukoda

Mr. G wrote: »

What panel are you looking at?

Get a panel that has individual tampers for each zone. You should find one that is suitable for EN50131.

I’m looking at one nobody will know anything about because it’s not for sale here 😂 it’s a Honeywell 5800c2w which is designed to convert old wired systems to broadcast the zones as wireless to more modern keypads.
This is very experimental so just trying to figure if it’s possible at all.

Mr. G

Couldn't you go for a hybrid panel? What is your plan and what is it you need to do?

ukoda

Mr. G wrote: »

Couldn't you go for a hybrid panel? What is your plan and what is it you need to do?

I’m looking at the 5800c2w board as it will “talk” to the keypad I’m looking at, I.e. the Honeywell Lyric Controller, this keypad has z-wave and Apple HomeKit support and ultimately I want to automate the alarm features using HomeKit, I.e. using rules like “if everyone is out of the house, then arm the alarm” this alarm keypad is the only one compatible with HomeKit (for the moment anyway)

KoolKid

You can probably wire the zones using duel end of line resistors to give you separate tampers for each zone.

ukoda

KoolKid wrote: »

You can probably wire the zones using duel end of line resistors to give you separate tampers for each zone.

How would that work? The board comes with 9 resistors for each zone, would I be wiring the tampers into the corresponding zones? So 2 wires Z1 and T1 wired into Z1?

KoolKid

You would need to look at the how the zones can be configured in the panel programming.
If there is a option for Duel end of line wiring then tampers and alarm can be wired onto a single zone input.

ukoda

KoolKid wrote: »

You would need to look at the how the zones can be configured in the panel programming.
If there is a option for Duel end of line wiring then tampers and alarm can be wired onto a single zone input.

According to the panel instructions I downloaded, there is a calibrate button on the panel that will auto calibrate the zones but each zone must have an EOL resistor. There isn’t any other way to program it from what I can see

KoolKid

If there is no option for Duel end of line then you will need to series all tampers into an aux tamper input.

ukoda

KoolKid wrote: »

If there is no option for Duel end of line then you will need to series all tampers into an aux tamper input.

My fear is the board is too limited? See image below

There’s only the zones and power in and 12volt aux out to power PIR.

So the only options I can see are to wire the tampers into each zone or wire multiple tampers into their own zone

KoolKid

I think you would be better off upgrading to another system. Siemens Vanderbilt or GSDs i1070 would be my recommendations.

ukoda

KoolKid wrote: »

I think you would be better off upgrading to another system. Siemens Vanderbilt or GSDs i1070 would be my recommendations.

They are good systems but they are behind the times in terms of remote management and smart home integration features, I was really hoping to try the Honeywell. I’m sure there must be some way to wire it up that would work! Maybe wishful thinking?

KoolKid

To be honest for serious home automation I think you are better off using a dedicated system away from the alarm.
After that Siemens Vanderbilt will give you some good control using outputs, virtual outputs and X10.

ukoda

KoolKid wrote: »

To be honest for serious home automation I think you are better off using a dedicated system away from the alarm.
After that Siemens Vanderbilt will give you some good control using outputs, virtual outputs and X10.

I do have a dedicated smart home system, the plan was to allow my smart home to have access to my alarm, I don’t want the alarm to be my smart home if you know what I mean.

There seems to be very limited options in the Irish market for Connected or truely smart alarms, none of them can connect to Apple HomeKit / Amazon Alexa / google home etc, I know people can build their own z-wave or zigbee with something like Samsung’s smarthome but there is no professional level alarm system that will integrate with smart home tech. I’m sure it will come over time, Honeywell’s system is the first in the world to be a professionally installed alarm system capable of integrating with common smart home platforms. Others might follow maybe

KoolKid

Can you explain how you want or would like the alarm to integrate?
I think Google and some other systems have an option to hardwire triggers from the alarm panel etc.

ukoda

KoolKid wrote: »

Can you explain how you want or would like the alarm to integrate?
I think Google and some other systems have an option to hardwire triggers from the alarm panel etc.

Yeah sure, most of my smart home tech is compatible with HomeKit, meaning I can centralise control of devices to 1 app (apples home app) this allows all devices to work together and take action if another device is activated. For example lights come on and off based on either timers or dusk till dawn settings or if my smoke alarm goes off all the lights come on.

If my alarm was compatible with Apple HomeKit I can do automations like:

-When the last person leaves the house - arm the alarm (uses geo fencing on my phone)
-When the first person arrives home - disarm the alarm
-if the alarm goes off - turn on all my lights in the house
- if the front door opens (using the alarm contacts as a trigger) then turn the hallway light on
- if all the windows are open (using the alarm contact sensors as triggers) then turn the heating off
- if it’s after 23:00 and I turn off all the lights - arm the alarm in “stay” mode
- when I turn my bedside lamp on in the morning, only between the hours of 6am and 9am (so it doesn’t turn alarm off if I need to pee in middle of night) - disarm the alarm

Also allows me to arm and disarm the alarm from the Apple Home app, again centralising all my tech in 1 place

You get the idea, some of the examples are more useful than others, there’s no alarm system out there (professional one) that is authenticated to work with home automation in this way

KoolKid

Siemens Vanderbilt could do a lot of that but it would be talking to the end devices & not your central control system.
Some examples I have set up.
If alarm is set turn off heating.
If alarm is part set turn off heating after 20 minutes.
If so many perimeter zones are open turn off heating.
If alarm is activated turn on certain lights.
If hall door is opened dusk-dawn turn on hall lights
If back door is opened dusk-dawn switch back external lights.
Conditions can be controlled by calendar,inputs, outputs user codes/fobs or any combination of all.

ukoda

KoolKid wrote: »

Siemens Vanderbilt could do a lot of that but it would be talking to the end devices & not your central control system.
Some examples I have set up.
If alarm is set turn off heating.
If alarm is part set turn off heating after 20 minutes.
If so many perimeter zones are open turn off heating.
If alarm is activated turn on certain lights.
If hall door is opened dusk-dawn turn on hall lights
If back door is opened dusk-dawn switch back external lights.
Conditions can be controlled by calendar,inputs, outputs user codes/fobs or any combination of all.

It would take a lot of effort! And it’s the centralison that’s key really, it would take someone like Siemens to implement the Apple software and push out a firmware update or a compatible panel. But it’s unlikely they are even looking at this.

As a matter of interest, the keypad I was looking at is an all in one device, in so far as you can directly wire 2 zones into the keypad. Would it be possible to combine all zones into 2 and wire directly into the keypad?! I know you’d lose the ability to tell them apart.

KoolKid

Although Siemens Vanderbilt has X10 compatibility this is not being promoted or supported.
I'd say if they come out with anything it would be their own protocol. I know this was the plan prior to Vanderbilt.

kub

I hope you do not have inertia shock sensors on your existing 6/10.
Because these will not work on the Honeywell panel you are considering

ukoda

kub wrote: »

I hope you do not have inertia shock sensors on your existing 6/10.
Because these will not work on the Honeywell panel you are considering

I think I do, it’s what I assume this is:

kub

ukoda wrote:

I think I do, it’s what I assume this is:

Ok you do, but that sensor head is fitted incorrectly so won't work anyway.

ukoda

kub wrote: »

Ok you do, but that sensor head is fitted incorrectly so won't work anyway.

Oh really?!

I could always bypass these and just have the zones using the contacts

ukoda

kub wrote: »

I hope you do not have inertia shock sensors on your existing 6/10.
Because these will not work on the Honeywell panel you are considering

Btw are you familiar with that panel or can you just tell form the diagram?

kub

ukoda wrote:

Btw are you familiar with that panel or can you just tell form the diagram?

Having analysed zones on a panel is very much an Irish requirement as we are one of the few countries in the world that utilise inertia shock sensors on systems.
Also I don't know of any home automation product that is really up to the task from a proper security system point of view.

kub

ukoda wrote:

I could always bypass these and just have the zones using the contacts

You could, but if someone smashed your glass and entered without opening a window or door, they could bypass your alarm system

ukoda

kub wrote: »

You could, but if someone smashed your glass and entered without opening a window or door, they could bypass your alarm system

True, the Honeywell system has wireless glassbreak sensors but I’m unsure how well they would work with double glazing

kub

ukoda wrote:

True, the Honeywell system has wireless glassbreak sensors but I’m unsure how well they would work with double glazing

Just looking at the diagram you put up earlier, I have my doubts that system would comply with EN50131, which is a benchmark that insurers use.
I would also suggest you consider the Vanderbilt system.

KoolKid

Any system that he installs himself will not conform to En50131-1 anyway.

ukoda

kub wrote: »

Just looking at the diagram you put up earlier, I have my doubts that system would comply with EN50131, which is a benchmark that insurers use.
I would also suggest you consider the Vanderbilt system.

Does the Vanderbilt have remote access?

KoolKid

ukoda wrote: »

Does the Vanderbilt have remote access?

Yes, via app and web browser

ukoda

Thanks for the help guys, I was aware I’d not be compliant if I did it myself, it going to be more of an experiment than anything. I’ll prob opt for the Vanderbilt eventually

ukoda

Is it the SPC Connect app for the Vanderbilt system?

KoolKid

Yes

https://itunes.apple.com/ie/app/spc-connect/id948318844?mt=8

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.siemens.spcconnect&hl=en

They are free to download & have a demo site to give you the feel of it.

ukoda

KoolKid wrote: »

Yes

https://itunes.apple.com/ie/app/spc-connect/id948318844?mt=8

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.siemens.spcconnect&hl=en

They are free to download & have a demo site to give you the feel of it.

actually looks pretty good, the HKC app is god awful looking!

For a professional install of this, would i be better checking the register of installers and getting an independent guy., if such a thing exists. from a quick google i don't see any company local to me (cork city) that installs vanderbilt, and i'm assuming they will only want to sell their own system to me

KoolKid

All installers will be listed in the register.

ukoda

KoolKid wrote: »

All installers will be listed in the register.

what are advantages of the Vanderbilt over say the HKC SecureWave, which seems to be much more common?

KoolKid

There are lots. See through the thread for more information.
The 2 main reasons are apps are free and there are no annual charges & network fail notifications can be as low as a minute vs 5 hours for HKC.

hatchman

Be careful what u say about HKC some on here take offence to any non positive comment regarding hkc :-)

ukoda

hatchman wrote: »

Be careful what u say about HKC some on here take offence to any non positive comment regarding hkc :-)

It was a fairly mild criticism their system seems to be highly rated and lots recommend it. I do think though the app is in bad need of a refresh and modernisation in design. I’m sure functionally is solid.

KoolKid

It's a fair comment when you look at the design of some of the free ones.

fred funk }{

hatchman wrote: »

Be careful what u say about HKC some on here take offence to any non positive comment regarding hkc :-)

You see, there's a lot of history in here with this stuff and I understand that if someone from "the outside" were to dip their toe into it they will get a sharp burn (maybe unfairly). Also, there are some in here with an orchestrated agenda against HKC who themselves have a commercial interested in another manufacturer.

KoolKid

There you go.. That didn't take long, did it ðŸ˜
For the record I have no commercial agreements with any manufacturer.

ukoda

i'm just a DIY'er and smart home enthusiast looking to make the right decision on my next upgrade (i.e. alarm) If you asked me 3 months ago what kind of alarm i had or who made it, i wouldnt have been able to answer.

Think i'm resigned to the fact that i'll go with a professional install and not a DIY and just looking to educate myself on the best options - interestingly i had a conversation with an installer who rates HKC higher than Vanderbilt due to after sales issues with Vanderbilt hes experienced, I'm tending to believe him as he said he will quote me for and source me any system i want. also advised me straight up that HKC is €60 a year for the SIM, meaning hes not even adding a margin to that so i trust him now!