Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

q85dw7osi4lebg

What about offsetting losses for gains. Any ideas ?

Kickstart1.3

cnocbui wrote: »

No, I'd like you to enlighten me. I suspect you don't know what you are talking about, but no doubt your reply will address that.

Yes I do know what I am talking about. I am holding Crypto long before revenue even knew what a crypto currency is.
I suspect cnubutt you along with that 99% of other folks haven't made any Tax declaration with regard to Crypto holdings.
masterofbrake it isn't enough to just go and pay the tax once you realise the profits into fiat, you have to declare your holdings on your tax returns regardless

Kickstart1.3

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

What about offsetting losses for gains. Any ideas ?

see what I mean about the 99%

q85dw7osi4lebg

Kickstart1.3 wrote: »

see what I mean about the 99%

I'm talking about losses in other asset classes silly

Bob24

Kickstart1.3 wrote: »

Yes I do know what I am talking about. I am holding Crypto long before revenue even knew what a crypto currency is.

The original statement was “I see that some Governments are starting to come after bitcoin hodlers for taxes owed”.

From what I gather the other posters were saying that governments aren’t going after pure hodlers for taxes owed, as a pure hodler would never have sold anything and this never been subject to to CGT, which I think is unquestionable.

Everything else is probably just misunderstandings on wording.

makeorbrake

Kickstart1.3 wrote: »

masterofbrake it isn't enough to just go and pay the tax once you realise the profits into fiat, you have to declare your holdings on your tax returns regardless

I was talking about capital gains tax. I didn't refer to what gets itemised in terms of assets on a tax return.

Kickstart1.3

Your Crypto trading activities have to be very accurate for revenue, they are now well up on the subject. I was able to get away with a lot a few years back but now its a different story.
I don't know of any hodler out there that hasn't at least sold off or converted the freecoins like Bitcoin cash, bitcoin Gold and the multitude of other forks. Like who the fook would be hodling Bcash at $1000?
And no InstaSte you were just showing you were part of that 99% not me being silly.
But if you think I'm being silly give revenue a ring.......

Arrival

Kickstart1.3 wrote: »

Well 8% drop isn't unknown here, but it has been going sideways for sometime. 6k should be the next support but that failed in the past too.

Who knows, I think all this regulatory scrutiny isn't good. The same buzz and excitement about Bitcoin and Crypto in general is gone. It promised so much but hasn't delivered.
You need that herd mentality, fear of missing out to drive this, otherwise its just plain price manipulation by the likes CME Bitcoin, and scam coins and exchanges.
On top of which I see that some Governments are starting to come after bitcoin hodlers for taxes owed. So much for the financial freedom eh!

Does this apply to Irish tax residents and Revenue? You're aware we don't have to pay taxes on unrealised gains at least, right? Plus lots of people are going to emigrating before realising gains because of the ridiculous CGT rate, can't blame them either

Kickstart1.3

Arrival wrote: »

Does this apply to Irish tax residents and Revenue? You're aware we don't have to pay taxes on unrealised gains at least, right? Plus lots of people are going to emigrating before realising gains because of the ridiculous CGT rate, can't blame them either

I think if you read what I said you would know I am well aware.

Elessar

Arrival wrote: »

Does this apply to Irish tax residents and Revenue? You're aware we don't have to pay taxes on unrealised gains at least, right? Plus lots of people are going to emigrating before realising gains because of the ridiculous CGT rate, can't blame them either

You are aware that a realised gain is any gain you make from exchanging, selling or gifting cryptocurrencies, not just converting into fiat right?

I.e. you must declare and pay CGT on the gain if you, say, bought bitcoin at €3k and converted it into any altcoin when it was anything over €3k, even if you don't convert to euro. Same for any other exchange for any other cryptocurrency.

I think a lot of people are going to get caught out badly by this.

Elessar

makeorbrake wrote: »

Tax is paid once crystalised into FIAT. If you have a paper gain right now but have not traded back into FIAT, then there has been no gain in the eyes of Revenue.

There's a guidance document here.

Incorrect. Tax is payable on gains from any disposal and not just the selling into fiat. I.e. if you are trading and sell a coin that is worth more than you bought it for but you just buy other coins, you owe capital gains tax on the profit from that disposal. That document doesn't say anything of the sort re: tax to be paid only for FIAT disposals.

q85dw7osi4lebg

I'll be off to Portugal long before BTC gets to €1m.

Imagine paying 30% to Leo and co

makeorbrake

Elessar wrote: »

That document doesn't say anything of the sort re: tax to be paid only for FIAT disposals.

No problem at all. Is there a document then that sets that out (crypto to crypto trades resulting in a gain on disposal are to have CGT applied? I only ask as that document doesn't confirm this to be the case either. I know you asked exactly this question last year and there was a response to this effect. However, I'd like to see it from the beast itself (revenue).

cnocbui

Kickstart1.3 wrote: »

Yes I do know what I am talking about. I am holding Crypto long before revenue even knew what a crypto currency is.
I suspect cnubutt you along with that 99% of other folks haven't made any Tax declaration with regard to Crypto holdings.
masterofbrake it isn't enough to just go and pay the tax once you realise the profits into fiat, you have to declare your holdings on your tax returns regardless

Stop being cute and trying to make out you're a genius. The topic is revenue going after hodlers. A hodler is someone who buys and holds and doesn't sell. There not being a realised gain on which CGT is owing. Revenue won't be going after hodlers.

cnocbui

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

I'll be off to Portugal long before BTC gets to €1m.

Imagine paying 30% to Leo and co

New Zealand for me.

q85dw7osi4lebg

cnocbui wrote: »

New Zealand for me.

Wasn't aware of the tax setup in NZ, I may have to join your citadel over there instead.

Arrival

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

I'll be off to Portugal long before BTC gets to €1m.

Imagine paying 30% to Leo and co

Why Portugal in particular? Is that the best option in Europe?

q85dw7osi4lebg

Arrival wrote: »

Why Portugal in particular? Is that the best option in Europe?

Completely tax free for trading / gains and spending.

I just happen to already love the country also (silver coast in particular).

Only a matter of time before other EU countries sign up to a similar setup IMO, they will have too much to lose.

sabat

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

I'll be off to Portugal long before BTC gets to €1m.

Imagine paying 30% to Leo and co

So you're saying that you're quite confident that 1 BTC will be worth €1,000,000 at some point in the future, giving it a market cap of about $23 trillion at today's exchange rate? Making "Satoshi Nakamoto," whose true identity is unknown, a paper trillionaire? More money than the GDPs of Japan, Germany, India, France, Italy and the UK combined?

cnocbui

Arrival wrote: »

Why Portugal in particular? Is that the best option in Europe? But yeah anyone who stands to make mid to high six figures should definitely be considering their options to become non resident, 33% is outrageous, seriously how many people were involved with that original number actually coming into place?

CGT, Inheritance Tax, Vat - all near the top of the scale for OECD countries. Ireland has taxes other countries haven't even thought of yet. With CGT, you're not even allowed to account for inflation. If you explained DIRT tax to most foreigners, they would probably think you were pulling their leg and most wouldn't believe you. I just ordered some coffee from Luxembourg - 3% vat, not 23%.

Can't wait to get out of here.

Arrival

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

Completely tax free for trading / gains and spending.

I just happen to already love the country also (silver coast in particular).

Only a matter of time before other EU countries sign up to a similar setup IMO, they will have too much to lose.

Yeah it's a lovely country, very affordable as well. Didn't realise it was 0%, that's great. Wasn't there someone talking on here before about some way that you can back-date it or something so you could workaround the 3 years time requirement to become non resident in Ireland? That'd be handy out. Having to work in the 3 years to become non resident is a bit of a pain to consider as well

And yeah, for sure. It's kind of sad to have such unattractive rates that people want to leave the country specifically for it though. Like when you think about it, the potential profits from this industry are big enough to make normal, average people wealthier than they ever would have otherwise, a way for them to get ahead in life, and our government is essentially set up to punish those who take the risk and opening themselves up to losing out on tax revenue due to the emigration as a result.

cnocbui

I'd like to see someone explain how Revenue would go about trying to collect their 33%, if you sold even 1 month after moving to live elsewhere.

Arrival

cnocbui wrote: »

CGT, Inheritance Tax, Vat - all near the top of the scale for OECD countries. Ireland has taxes other countries haven't even thought of yet. With CGT, you're not even allowed to account for inflation. If you explained DIRT tax to most foreigners, they would probably think you were pulling their leg and most wouldn't believe you. I just ordered some coffee from Luxembourg - 3% vat, not 23%.

Can't wait to get out of here.

Ah shur, aren't we a great littul country punching above our weight!

All of that yet our infrastructure and public services are shocking. I wouldn't even mind high taxes if we actually had fantastic public services, similar to how things are in Norway. It's so frustrating because when you even discuss these things with people here their usual response will be "why don't you leave so". So basically anyone who dares to simply consider issues we have which could be improved is encouraged to leave. How small minded and lacking critical thinking are we? It's actually kind of funny thinking about how we're such failures that we even manage to have a housing crisis with a population of less than 5 million. No forward and innovative thinking here at all, anyone who has such traits is shot down or shipped out.

Arrival

cnocbui wrote: »

I'd like to see someone explain how Revenue would go about trying to collect their 33%, if you sold even 1 month after moving to live elsewhere.

If you moved outside of the EEA and were willing to not return to live here for probably 10 years, they couldn't

cnocbui

Arrival wrote: »

Ah shur, aren't we a great littul country punching above our weight!

All of that yet our infrastructure and public services are shocking. I wouldn't even mind high taxes if we actually had fantastic public services, similar to how things are in Norway. It's so frustrating because when you even discuss these things with people here their usual response will be "why don't you leave so". So basically anyone who dares to simply consider issues we have which could be improved is encouraged to leave. How small minded and lacking critical thinking are we? It's actually kind of funny thinking about how we're such failures that we even manage to have a housing crisis with a population of less than 5 million. No forward and innovative thinking here at all, anyone who has such traits is shot down or shipped out.

On the bright side, the civil servants have comfortable incomes, there's plenty of them and they get generous pensions. Even if you and I don't quite see the value, there's plenty of others who do. /s

There is only a housing 'crisis' in Dublin. The capital/popular cities of most countries seem to have housing crises at the moment - it's pretty much universal.

unkel

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

I'll be off to Portugal long before BTC gets to €1m.

The world needs millions and millions of other Gerald Obedient Manicurist's who put away a hundred or two a week into BTC every week as their main / only pension fund, for it to go €1m

I'm far from saying this won't happen though. In fact if young people are starting to do this en masse world wide (and there are signs of it), that it is likely it will happen.

Elessar

makeorbrake wrote: »

No problem at all. Is there a document then that sets that out (crypto to crypto trades resulting in a gain on disposal are to have CGT applied? I only ask as that document doesn't confirm this to be the case either. I know you asked exactly this question last year and there was a response to this effect. However, I'd like to see it from the beast itself (revenue).

Crypto to crypto is treated the same as any other asset you're trading for tax purposes, i.e. FX, shares etc. Meaning tax is owed on profits from any disposal, even if you haven't ''realised" it into euro. There was a letter from a minister a few years ago which set out similar (can't find the link) but there is a lot of other stuff online like the links below:

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/ive-invested-in-bitcoin-but-will-there-be-tax-due-on-the-profits-37682148.html

https://liamburnsandco.ie/cryptocurrency-tax-guide/

Specifically :

(UPDATED – 31/01/2018) What constitutes a disposal of an asset?
Having published this post, I received the following query from a reader;

Hey Liam,

Great article you wrote on the tax implications for cryptocurrency investors.

The one touchpoint that doesn’t seem to be crystal clear though is what actually constitutes the disposal of an asset?

(You say ‘whether by way of GIFT, SALE or EXCHANGE’.)

A) Does the realisation of that profit depend on the profit hitting your bank account, or

Does an exchange on a trading platform count even though theoretically that profit could disappear with the next market dip?

Best regards,

David


The answers are thus;

A) The gain on the disposal of the asset is realised, whether or not the funds are transferred back into your bank account.

Yes. If you have assets on any particular platform, once your position is closed on that transaction (i.e. the profit/gain is allocated to your account on that platform) then the gain/profit becomes taxable.

You need to be careful - every transaction on any exchange has the potential for a tax implication. I use cointracking for automatically calculating everything I need. I've paid CGT twice now for crypto to revenue (with gritted teeth and despite never cashing out to euro) moreso because I genuinely believe I'll make some serious cash in the future from bitcoin and some other alts I have positions in and revenue are probably gonna do an audit! I want to make sure it's all kosher.

q85dw7osi4lebg

BTC up over 25% in a day, can it sustain ?

q85dw7osi4lebg

31% ...

sabat

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

BTC up over 25% in a day, can it sustain ?

What fundamentals are we supposed to look at to answer that question? Maybe find the instigators of the pump and ask them how much they intend to milk it?