Tramps fighting in Waterford

Wanderer78

greenspurs wrote: »

But since when did being placed in prison mean having to be rehabilitated ?
It was supposed to be a deterent ? If you commit a crime, we will put you in a prison cell for years, and deprive you of your liberty.

Its only since the 'Do-Gooders' decided that those imprisoned should be helped/educated/rehabilitated that this has become the 'ultimate issue' , but if you get 5/10/20 years in prison, and then are released , and go back to reoffending, well then I think, that person is beyond help if their previous time in prison didn't put them off breaking the law again!.

I know socio-economic issues are a factor, but those that want to be a criminal will be, regardless.

ive met many criminals throughout my life, and continue to do so, conversations with them and with those that have and continue to work with them are interesting to say the least.

the root causes of criminality are extremely complex, to the point, we dont actually truly understand them, but there has been astonishing research done over the last few decades, but unfortunately our social systems and institutions are extremely slow to adopt these findings. you will find, a large proportion of criminals will suffer with complex issues that cause behavior such as involuntary negative outcomes, i.e. they conduct in behavior that they dont necessarily have total control over, this would be common in complex behavioral problems such as autism, adhd comes to mind, but there are others. ive also been recently informed, and this is from peer reviewed research, some individuals show no response to incarceration, and i suspect, some in fact show a net negative response. so therefore, incarceration doesnt truly work in dealing with these complex social issues, and may actually be exasperating them, but failing to try understand these issues, is more likely to cause more harm than good.

so do we just ignore those that cannot be 'rehabilitated', and lock them away, what is this person becomes you, or someone close to you?

BelovedAunt

greenspurs wrote: »

Anyone argue with my original point about sterilising these scumbags ??

No argument here but it would be impossible to implement something like that.

greenspurs

To be honest, I would ignore them.
Harsh maybe, but why try our hardest for those that wont/cant be bettered or rehabilitated.
Can you save those that don't/wont want to be saved ?

BBM77

Wanderer78 wrote: »

is there actually any evidence to support this statement? our current rehabilitation rates of inmates is roughly 40%, i.e roughly 60% of inmates will engage in criminal activities after release, thats the sign of deep systemic failure, i.e. theres no conclusive evidence to support, incarceration resolves our criminal activities, and i have reason to believe, it in fact, in some cases, exasperates them

This is where your argument falls apart. “systemic failure” is just a worn-out buzz word that absolves the people in question of their personal responsibility. If a difficult upbringing and poor economic circumstances was the cause of this kind of behaviour more people would be doing it. Of course, there are people who have hard upbringings for various reasons who turn to drugs etc as a way to escape it. But the fact is that some people are just a waste of space and have nothing better to do with themselves than fight on the street.

fuzzy dunlop

Wanderer78 wrote: »

greenspurs wrote: »

But since when did being placed in prison mean having to be rehabilitated ?
It was supposed to be a deterent ? If you commit a crime, we will put you in a prison cell for years, and deprive you of your liberty.

Its only since the 'Do-Gooders' decided that those imprisoned should be helped/educated/rehabilitated that this has become the 'ultimate issue' , but if you get 5/10/20 years in prison, and then are released , and go back to reoffending, well then I think, that person is beyond help if their previous time in prison didn't put them off breaking the law again!.

I know socio-economic issues are a factor, but those that want to be a criminal will be, regardless.

ive met many criminals throughout my life, and continue to do so, conversations with them and with those that have and continue to work with them are interesting to say the least.

the root causes of criminality are extremely complex, to the point, we dont actually truly understand them, but there has been astonishing research done over the last few decades, but unfortunately our social systems and institutions are extremely slow to adopt these findings. you will find, a large proportion of criminals will suffer with complex issues that cause behavior such as involuntary negative outcomes, i.e. they conduct in behavior that they dont necessarily have total control over, this would be common in complex behavioral problems such as autism, adhd comes to mind, but there are others. ive also been recently informed, and this is from peer reviewed research, some individuals show no response to incarceration, and i suspect, some in fact show a net negative response. so therefore, incarceration doesnt truly work in dealing with these complex social issues, and may actually be exasperating them, but failing to try understand these issues, is more likely to cause more harm than good.

so do we just ignore those that cannot be 'rehabilitated', and lock them away, what is this person becomes you, or someone close to you?

The problem with academic publicatiions none of which you have reffered us to is that that they have motivation outside of knowledge and understanding. I found this out from an MIT post doctorate researcher. A peer reviewed paper with your name on it is an end in itself. Plus the peer review system is incestuous in IVY league and English speaking countries in general.

The "What if it was your friend" nonsense is part of the problem. For too long this type of excuse making only justifies bad behaviour. Does prison work? Sure it does! 99% of people have managed to avoid it including the majority of people with the comditions you describe.

For the people who can't be rehabilitated? Should we lock them up forever? If they are violent or dangerous then yea absolutely.

Wanderer78

BBM77 wrote: »

This is where your augment falls apart. “systemic failure” is just a worn-out buzz word that absolves the people in question of their personal responsibility. If a difficult upbringing and poor economic circumstances was the cause of this kind of behaviour more people would be doing it. Of course, there are people who have hard upbringings for various reasons who turn to drugs etc as a way to escape it. But the fact is that some people are just a waste of space and have nothing better to do with themselves than fight on the street.

disagree of course, please be aware, i have some of the most common root causes of criminality in the form of autism(asbergers and add) and dyslexia, and have struggled with mental health issues for a very large proportion of my life. all these issues are common amongst prison populations, peer reviewed supported, and actually life supported. i can vouch for 'systemic failure' in dealing with these kind of issues, and i suspect others that have similar issues, or maybe parents that have kids with these kinds of issues, would probably also confirm. seriously, talk to people that struggle with things such as 'impulsive behavioral issues', common in various forms of autism, and mental health issues such as bipolar and borderline disorders etc.

fuzzy dunlop

Wanderer78 wrote: »

BBM77 wrote: »

This is where your augment falls apart. “systemic failure” is just a worn-out buzz word that absolves the people in question of their personal responsibility. If a difficult upbringing and poor economic circumstances was the cause of this kind of behaviour more people would be doing it. Of course, there are people who have hard upbringings for various reasons who turn to drugs etc as a way to escape it. But the fact is that some people are just a waste of space and have nothing better to do with themselves than fight on the street.

disagree of course, please be aware, i have some of the most common root causes of criminality in the form of autism(asbergers and add) and dyslexia, and have struggled with mental health issues for a very large proportion of my life. all these issues are common amongst prison populations, peer reviewed supported, and actually life supported. i can vouch for 'systemic failure' in dealing with these kind of issues, and i suspect others that have similar issues, or maybe parents that have kids with these kinds of issues, would probably also confirm. seriously, talk to people that struggle with things such as 'impulsive behavioral issues', common in various forms of autism, and mental health issues such as bipolar and borderline disorders etc.

Some of these disorders, there is a case to be made that sufferers should not be allowed mix with the general population. BPD for example.

Wanderer78

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Some of these disorders, there is a case to be made that sufferers should not be allowed mix with the general population. BPD for example.

so they should be segregated and somewhat excluded from society?

greenspurs

Fair enough points, but I don't think that :
"i suspect other" or "maybe" or Probably also confirm" isnt evidence/proof/excusing/reason for such behaviour in the criminals/scumbags.
I don't think there are stats/figures for the common cause of criminality. There are common points of reference , yes, such as family involvement, peers, drugs , money.

You are a scumbag or you are made one , or else you are a law abiding citizen. Simple.

Wanderer78

greenspurs wrote: »

Fair enough points, but I don't think that :
"i suspect other" or "maybe" or Probably also confirm" isnt evidence/proof/excusing/reason for such behaviour in the criminals/scumbags.
I don't think there are stats/figures for the common cause of criminality. There are common points of reference , yes, such as family involvement, peers, drugs , money.

You are a scumbag or you are made one , or else you are a law abiding citizen. Simple.

are your or my opinions not valid in society? i would truly recommend talking to those that have i have suggested, this isnt as clear cut as some would make it out to be, im sure its even more complicated than i believe it to be. its also important to note, some laws are not actually there to truly benefit all in society, but only certain minorities, bill blacks work comes to mind here, but thats another matter.

fuzzy dunlop

Wanderer78 wrote: »

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Some of these disorders, there is a case to be made that sufferers should not be allowed mix with the general population. BPD for example.

so they should be segregated and somewhat excluded from society?

Yes I think so! I have met people like this. They are extremely dangerous.

Wanderer78

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Yes I think so! I have met people like this. They are extremely dangerous.

i both agree and disagree, ive worked with people with these kinds of issues, they are some of the most genuine people ive ever met, would go out of their way to help and try do the right thing, they most certainly were not extremely dangerous

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so they should be segregated and somewhat excluded from society?

Wanderer some people suffering from mental disorders are very dangerous albeit outside of their own control.
We should be able to expect to be free to go around about our business without fear of being harmed by someone who really needs full time professional medical care.

Wanderer78

splinter65 wrote: »

Wanderer some people suffering from mental disorders are very dangerous albeit outside of their own control.
We should be able to expect to be free to go around about our business without fear of being harmed by someone who really needs full time professional medical care.

oh i do agree, all citizens must be safe, from themselves and from the action of others, but are we approaching these issues in the right way?

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh i do agree, all citizens must be safe, from themselves and from the action of others, but are we approaching these issues in the right way?

We have a limited pot of money with which to pay for all public services. Over the last 30 years a lot of money has been spent on “care in the community” projects where people with moderate to severe mental health issues and addiction issues are no longer incarcerated in long term institutions.
Basically, it’s not working out.
Ill people need care and structure and proper support.
The idea of living independently while attending mental health outpatients and drop in centers on a voluntary basis is wonderful but in reality it has been a failure.
Most of the violent crime carried out in this country is by people who simply shouldn’t be walking the streets.
What do you think is the solution wanderer?

fuzzy dunlop

Wanderer78 wrote: »

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Yes I think so! I have met people like this. They are extremely dangerous.

i both agree and disagree, ive worked with people with these kinds of issues, they are some of the most genuine people ive ever met, would go out of their way to help and try do the right thing, they most certainly were not extremely dangerous

Nobody said they were all dangerous. The term "some of them". Did you pick that up in a "peer reviewed" journal? By the way, people were saying the same thing about Ted Bundy! I think you should read a few more "peer reviewed" publications especially about pyschopathy.  This type of positive behaviour is often used as a  mask by people like this.

AlekSmart

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Are your or my opinions not valid in society? i would truly recommend talking to those that have I have suggested, this isnt as clear cut as some would make it out to be, I'm sure its even more complicated than I believe it to be. Its also important to note, some laws are not actually there to truly benefit all in society, but only certain minorities, Bill Blacks work comes to mind here, but thats another matter.

This is a very interesting thread for sure.

Your point about the validity of Law is challenging in itself.

Are you in favour of abandoning our current concept of "Law" ?

If so,can you suggest a replacement,or do you favour abandoning such restrictive,repressive practices in total,due to the requirement to enforce them ?

You mention some Laws,as not being of benefit to "all in society,but only certain minorities".

Would you include such legislation as the Equal Status Acts 2000-2015 or the reworkings of other,similar legislation to specifically include "certain minorities" to the exclusion of the remainder of general society ?

Are you happy that such "certain minorities" recieve this added focus,at the expense of resourcing the protection of the "General" population,particularly those who have avoided becoming lawbreakers and even avoided becoming Prisoners (even as adults who have lived with Aspbergers and recieved no special supports or recognition) ?

There is a point,past which,organized general society cannot go in supporting and/or facilitating those who see that very society as problematic and contributing to their (often many) societal issues.

There are many areas in our Country,where the people who are working and paying a grossly disproportionate amount of their Income,towards keeping these "supportive schemes" in operation,then find themselves cast adrift without any support,when those who are being supported decide to lash out,often repeatedly and violently.

You are correct,in that the issues are not clear cut,however,that lack-of-clarity is often somewhat contrived,and tends to benefit the "certain monorities" ahead of the silent majority,who's job is to keep working and paying the taxes to pay for the beer'n crisps of the remainder ?

Boooourns

They should set up a little pop-up style station in the middle of town like you see in other European cities. Just needs to be man'd by a couple of Gardai during the day.

dzilla

Boooourns wrote: »

They should set up a little pop-up style station in the middle of town like you see in other European cities. Just needs to be man'd by a couple of Gardai during the day.

Wouldn't even need to be as fancy as a pop up station. A paddy wagon with a desk would suffice. Something like community policing for that area. Needs to be done because there's no point in doing all the nice work in the city with the Viking piece, Waterford walls and the greenway if all that image work is spoiled by a couple of the local mensa brigade scrapping in town

BBM77

dzilla wrote: »

Wouldn't even need to be as fancy as a pop up station. A paddy wagon with a desk would suffice. Something like community policing for that area. Needs to be done because there's no point in doing all the nice work in the city with the Viking piece, Waterford walls and the greenway if all that image work is spoiled by a couple of the local mensa brigade scrapping in town

As always seems to be the case the problems Waterford has to deal with has its root cause in not getting our fair share from government. I was listening to a member of the Waterford policing commission, not sure if that is its correct title. But he was saying that Waterford has 20% less Garda’s than the rest for the country. With these reduced numbers and other duties this apparently often leaves as little as three Garda’s to police the entire city with a population of over 53000!

Mossy Monk

That's incredible. How are the government allowed to get away with treating us like crap.

Boooourns

Saw two of the girls in that video off their heads on stuff this evening, shouting and roaring walking down by Celtic squash court. Some beauties them.

Boooourns

.

Wanderer78

Boooourns wrote:

Saw two of the girls in that video off their heads on stuff this evening, shouting and roaring walking down by Celtic squash court. Some beauties them.

If this is the case, there's more than likely some very serious issues going on there, that need addressing

friendlyfun

Look, I'm absolutely disgusted by the carry-on in this town centre. I have read the previous posts and I wouldn't construe them as been hyperbolic. There is a serious social problem in our town centre and its a lot more visible due to a lack of Garda presence.

There are beggars, vagrants of sorts. People sharing heroin in the Cathedral of all places! Fella got stabbed in the head about a month in broad daylight for **** sake!

dartboardio

Emm there’s plenty of people with serious mental disorders that aren’t violent junkies! Don’t blame this on mental health. As someone said above, you’re either a scumbag, made into one or a law abiding citizen. Simple as.

I tend to not feel sorry for these people when I pass them on the street as they would rob you blind.

I’m sorry but I don’t give beggars or drug addicts money. Maybe food, that’s it. Don’t let them trick you with their stories.

Majority of the people in this situation in Waterford it’s all down to being dragged up, mixing with the wrong people and it going way past the point of experimenting with drugs

PTH2009

Seen a video on Facebook of an attack way worse than the ****e happening here

Anyone else see it ??

PTH2009

PTH2009 wrote: »

Seen a video on Facebook of an attack way worse than the ****e happening here

Anyone else see it ??

Where did it happen?

Do you have a link?

davyboy1975

https://www.facebook.com/TheLiberal.ie/videos/1964020363642592/

davyboy1975

davyboy1975 wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/TheLiberal.ie/videos/1964020363642592/

That was a terrible beating alright but what does a beating in Belfast have too do with a Waterford forum?

BBM77

Deleted User wrote: »

That was a terrible beating alright but what does a beating in Belfast have too do with a Waterford forum?

It shows these kinds of things are happening everywhere and not just in Waterford like some seem to want to say.

BBM77

BBM77 wrote: »

It shows these kinds of things are happening everywhere and not just in Waterford like some seem to want to say.

Oh ok that makes sense.

The poor girl got a really bad beating. No teenager should get beat like that That was very hard to watch

Deisegodeo

Jesus that was a shocking video. I dont know how she walked away from that

Deisegodeo

Deisegodeo wrote: »

Jesus that was a shocking video. I dont know how she walked away from that

The guy pouring the drink over her head when she is getting beat up All of those attackers should get jail time, I dont care if they are young. Psychopaths!

dartboardio

Totally agree. Everyone that was hitting or kicking her and the guys pouring alcohol on her face should be locked up. Justice system is ridiculous. They will probably walk free no bother .

dark crystal

Two arrested in that assault in N. Ireland.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/two-arrested-after-vicious-filmed-assault-on-teenage-girl-36831890.html

Hope they throw the book at the scumbags.

BBM77

Deleted User wrote: »

The guy pouring the drink over her head when she is getting beat up All of those attackers should get jail time, I dont care if they are young. Psychopaths!

Completely agree. This is more than just teenagers going of the rails. It’s Psyco kind of behaviour.

Johnboy1951

dark crystal wrote: »

Two arrested in that assault in N. Ireland.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/two-arrested-after-vicious-filmed-assault-on-teenage-girl-36831890.html

Hope they throw the book at the scumbags.

Only two?
Two females were involved in beating up the girl, as well as the guy 'egging' them on and pouring the contents of a drinks bottle into the victim's face.

At minimum those three should be taken off the streets!

In addition there were others watching who are also <somewhat> culpable .....

“All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing.”

Mossy Monk

Disgusting video. Anyone involved should be put down. Anyone watching and doing nothing to stop it deserve a hiding too.

splinter65

This is where feminism has brought us. A fella orchestrating a vicious fight over a fella between 2 women. The sisterhood need to be very proud. These people are worse then animals and the rest of us need to be protected from them.

Deiseen

splinter65 wrote: »

This is where feminism has brought us. A fella orchestrating a vicious fight over a fella between 2 women. The sisterhood need to be very proud. These people are worse then animals and the rest of us need to be protected from them.

Dont really see the feminism connection to be honest.

Surely feminists wouldn't be fighting over a man?

splinter65

Deiseen wrote: »

Dont really see the feminism connection to be honest.

Surely feminists wouldn't be fighting over a man?

My point is that despite all the #metoo #ibelieveher movement and the fight for equality and an end to the gender pay gap you will now have, more then ever before, 2 feral females punching each other’s lights out over who gets to be abused by some oik who hates both of them equally.

Johnboy1951

There are idiots and scumbags of both sexes ....... that is equality!

taytobreath

wow that video left me shaking, the ferocity of that beating, she should be up on an attempted murder charge not the other watered down charge.

And the lack of empathy, that poor girl was pleading for her life and for them to stop, "I'm sorry, sorry, sorry...." she can be heard say.

The world has changed, life is cheap now

splinter65

taytobreath wrote: »

wow that video left me shaking, the ferocity of that beating, she should be up on an attempted murder charge not the other watered down charge.

And the lack of empathy, that poor girl was pleading for her life and for them to stop, "I'm sorry, sorry, sorry...." she can be heard say.

The world has changed, life is cheap now

She clearly was afraid she was being beaten to death. The pig pouring the drink on her too. Terrifying.

deisemum

splinter65 wrote: »

She clearly was afraid she was being beaten to death. The pig pouring the drink on her too. Terrifying.

Another female in the North has made an allegation of being a victim of a horrific attack carried out by this victim back in December. Maybe this attack was in retaliation and that's why she was saying sorry, but that's no excuse for such a horrific attack.

Boooourns

deisemum wrote: »

Another female in the North has made an allegation of being a victim of a horrific attack carried out by this victim back in December. Maybe this attack was in retaliation and that's why she was saying sorry, but that's no excuse for such a horrific attack.

Read they were all a gang and used to beat up loads of people, then the blonde girl slept with someone she shouldn't have so they then jumped her.