Is lack of competition going to slow down mass adoption of EVs?

redlead

We often see stats that mass adoption of EVs is right around the corner i.e there will be a jump by 2020 and a very large percentage by 2030 etc. I'm pretty sure I'm going switch my second car to a fully EV around 2020 but when I look at the way the motor industry is approaching EVs I can't see many people doing likewise.

Nissan/Renault and hyundai seem to be the only companies making an effort. To obtain mass adoption you need most big manufacturers to be producing affordable EVs like the Leaf or Zoe which will drive on the technology. The chevy Bolt looks impressive but not sure if that's going to make its way over here with the sale of GM?

The attitude of Volkswagen and Toyota leaves a lot to be desired. Why is the egolf so expensive? This costs 30k in the US and is 45 here after incentives as far as I can see. This is for a golf. A company Volkswagens size should have a direct competitor for the leaf. Not a rip off golf no one is going to buy or a niche up. Toyota only seem interested in pushing non plug in hybrids. Their current advertising campaign highlights the fact that you don't have to plug it in as a good thing. It's a totally different technology and not one going in the right path.

Companies making expensive luxury EVs are only ever going to be niche. I applaud Tesla for making the model 3 but their lack of availability is a major issue. We need the the big companies to start making and promoting affordable EVs and most don't seem overly interested. Is there a lot more in the pipeline that I am not aware of?

goz83

The others are only starting to crawl out of the oily cesspool they have been inhabiting for decades. Nissan/Renault and Hyundai are the only manufacturers to have produced affordable, practical EVs so far on any real scale for western availability.

The Golf is expensive, I agree...when you consider a Model 3 should be around the same money when it lands here next year. BMW have done a stellar job with the i3, but it too is expensive and a bit too quirky for my taste (not that the Leaf 1/1.5 is sexy). The new Leaf is much more attractive though and something I would like to have.

Kia & VW do have some EVs coming around the corner, but it will take time for people to shift. Most people buy used cars, so it will also take time for used EVs to filter down the market to a price point that suits the second hand buyer. I am one of those people.

The lack of competition will of course slow the uptake, but there are a lot of factors behind the delay, including vested interests and political balls will.

thierry14

Supply and demand

If EVs could do 5/5/5 ( 500km/5min charge/5000 cycles) at the same price point demand would be so high Toyota and the giants would be dropped so fast they would have to make EVs

Product would be superior to ICE

Batteries are nearly there now and demand will increase soon to see the battery plants going up to meet it

https://pushevs.com/2018/01/22/best-ev-prismatic-battery-cells-chinese/

Toyota and VW can easily move over to EVs when they are ready

Battery giants will take the orders from the biggest players in the game

Personally I think that Tesla are the single biggest game changer making the EVs actually fully compete with conventional vehicles. It may not look that way in Ireland just now but things will look radially different in a few years, if they survive.

It will be all about the batteries going forward and Tesla and Nissan are the only two with manufacturing capacity or guaranteed supply to as many cells as they need.

redlead

samih wrote: »

Personally I think that Tesla are the single biggest game changer making the EVs actually fully compete with conventional vehicles. It may not look that way in Ireland just now but things will look radially different in a few years, if they survive.

It will be all about the batteries going forward and Tesla and Nissan are the only two with manufacturing capacity or guaranteed supply to as many cells as they need.

Is a 30k dollar model 3 going to magically turn into a 50k car in Ireland though? That's my concern. God I'd love to get my hands on one haha

I just feel we need more cars at an ioniq / leaf price range before people start moving en masse towards adopting. I think its safe to assume the range issue will be resolved for most people in the next ten years.

feichin

I don't get this obsession with Tesla.
In two years and 115K driving an EV I can say I that I see numerous Leaf's almost every day and plenty of Zoe's, I3's and Ioniq's on a regular basis.
In that two years I have seen a total of two Tesla's.
Even if they are the future (and a distant future at that) at what they cost they should not be compared to your average family saloon / hatchback but should only be compared to similar top of the range luxury cars made by BMW, Audi, Jaguar and the like.

Shefwedfan

I have said since day one the selection of electric cars is one of the main reasons why people are not moving to them. Also the fact the Leaf is quirky does not help sell to some people. They have resolved this with a more standard Leaf 2.0

Couple of points, the eGolf is expensive but it is not priced to be competition for Leaf/Zoe. Would you expect to pay the same money if buying Petrol/Diesel Golf as you would a Clio/Pulsar? No you wouldn’t.

Also at the moment VW have no reason to decrease the price of eGolf, they are selling them out the door. They cannot keep them in stock, the local VW dealer had put up their demo eGolf and had to take it down as no replacement available to order from VW.

All of this will become irrelevant in 2019/2020 as VW will announce the ID range which will be a full end to end electric car option. Once they announce you will see Seat/Audi/Skoda release their versions so they will be able to provide full price range to market.

Nissan have done very little to be honest, they had jump on other manufacturers and instead of taking the advantage they sat back and nearly let the LEaf die. Only for Tesla coming out and pushing the other vendors then Nissan decided to get act together and release Leaf 2 and maybe??? Release another electric car

Toyota picked hybrid over electric and have the full range as hybrid. Fairly impressive in my eyes. Also Lexus are the same, pity Nissan didn’t do the same.....

All other vendors bar a few have announced details of electric cars. By the looks of it 2020 will be the time to change into an electric car as the choice will be massive.....

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Couple of points, the eGolf is expensive but it is not priced to be competition for Leaf/Zoe. Would you expect to pay the same money if buying Petrol/Diesel Golf as you would a Clio/Pulsar? No you wouldn’t.

Also at the moment VW have no reason to decrease the price of eGolf, they are selling them out the door. They cannot keep them in stock, the local VW dealer had put up their demo eGolf and had to take it down as no replacement available to order from VW.
.
.
.

All other vendors bar a few have announced details of electric cars. By the looks of it 2020 will be the time to change into an electric car as the choice will be massive.....

Choice will be massive but, like Ioniq, availability will be crap as they wont be able to (or maybe wont want to) get access to high volumes of batteries.

Its the same with the eGolf. You say they are selling out the door but in relative terms they aren't really... its just a tiny pin prick of what VW sell.

You're sticking to your view that the eGolf is priced right because its not a competitor to the Leaf. For sure it isn't a competitor but thats because of the price, not because its a significantly better car. They deserve a premium price over Nissan but not at the level they have pitched it.

They simply priced it high because they can. They don't have battery volume to sell more so they have no reason to drop the price yet... but they will when the market forces them. You can buy an entry level petrol Golf for the same money as a entry level Leaf or a Pulsar so this idea that VW wont lower themselves to Nissan's level is something I just don't buy into. The eGolf is priced high because they can't make anymore of them so supply is low, hence price is high. Just my alternative view to yours!

cros13

Yup, battery supply is the biggest issue... and when Toyota et. al finally wake up they simply won't be able to purchase batteries on the open market at prices that would keep their cars competitive.

redlead wrote: »

Is a 30k dollar model 3 going to magically turn into a 50k car in Ireland though? That's my concern. God I'd love to get my hands on one haha

Well here's the thing.... in LHD markets the base model 3 is €10k cheaper than the base BMW i3 after VAT but before any VRT-style taxes. So it's hard to see it falling outside the €30-40k range in Ireland.

redlead wrote: »

I just feel we need more cars at an ioniq / leaf price range before people start moving en masse towards adopting. I think its safe to assume the range issue will be resolved for most people in the next ten years.

For the vast majority of people the range issue is in their heads. With 150,000km on my i3 and a daily portlaoise to dublin motorway commute in a 22kWh EV I'm fairly confident that the vast majority of people would have no issues with a 40kWh EV like the 2018 Leaf. Apart from cutting down on stop for long distance trips that most people take every year the only reason for 60kWh+ EVs are for people without home charging to switch. But since most people in Ireland either have a driveway or designated parking for an apartment block the main issues in terms of range/home charging are consumer ignorance and the odd touch of regulatory/institutional inertia (i.e. management companies ignorance).

feichin wrote: »

I don't get this obsession with Tesla.
In two years and 115K driving an EV I can say I that I see numerous Leaf's almost every day and plenty of Zoe's, I3's and Ioniq's on a regular basis.
In that two years I have seen a total of two Tesla's.
Even if they are the future (and a distant future at that) at what they cost they should not be compared to your average family saloon / hatchback but should only be compared to similar top of the range luxury cars made by BMW, Audi, Jaguar and the like.

Tesla has come to Ireland rather late, and due to VRT and other barriers we tend to buy less premium cars anyway. If you go to somewhere like netherlands, switzerland or austria, the Model S is the best selling car in it's class (which includes the MB S-Class, BMW 6 & 7 series etc. etc.). Tesla has sold a similar number of Model S worldwide as the Leaf.

There are around 50 Model S registered in Ireland, the last number I have for the UK is 13,452. So you can see why we don't have a good sense of Tesla's impact here.

Shefwedfan

KCross wrote: »

Choice will be massive but, like Ioniq, availability will be crap as they wont be able to (or maybe wont want to) get access to high volumes of batteries.

Its the same with the eGolf. You say they are selling out the door but in relative terms they aren't really... its just a tiny pin prick of what VW sell.

You're sticking to your view that the eGolf is priced right because its not a competitor to the Leaf. For sure it isn't a competitor but thats because of the price, not because its a significantly better car. They deserve a premium price over Nissan but not at the level they have pitched it.

They simply priced it high because they can. They don't have battery volume to sell more so they have no reason to drop the price yet... but they will when the market forces them. You can buy an entry level petrol Golf for the same money as a entry level Leaf or a Pulsar so this idea that VW wont lower themselves to Nissan's level is something I just don't buy into. The eGolf is priced high because they can't make anymore of them so supply is low, hence price is high. Just my alternative view to yours!

I didn't say it was priced right. I said it was priced with a premium as VW would see the Golf as a step up from Leaf/Zoe.

Of course I would prefer to see a lower price but it aint going to happen

IF VW was not selling the eGolf then potentially they might have reduced the price but they are selling at the current price so why reduce the price.

All articles on the ID refer to pricing that will be competitive against other manufacturer but most times they quote Tesla. I would guess Skoda etc will need to price to be competitive against Nissan

I dont think we have a massively alternative view....just different explanations of it :P

Next car won't be an eGolf, even if I ordered today I doubt I would have this year so pointless. Based on my current timelines to swap it will probably be ID Crozz. One of the main reasons for this is I doubt very much I would get a look at Tesla 3 till 2021.

A Hyundai Kona could be nice alternative IF they go on sale this year and the current information is correct:P

unkel

feichin wrote: »

I don't get this obsession with Tesla.

Is it because you is Irish?

Tesla Model S and Model X are the number 1 and number 2 top selling EVs in the Netherlands. The majority of new taxis in Amsterdam are now Teslas.

Teslas are big-ish money to buy, but like any EV, you will save massively from then on in. And you get the range of an ICE. And you get the performance car specs. And free electricity for life. For anyone doing the big miles, they make a lot of sense. You and me and every Dutch taxi driver know it

ethernet

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Next car won't be an eGolf, even if I ordered today I doubt I would have this year so pointless.

It sure won't seeing as VW said they're killing it off in favour of the ID
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/new-golf-lands-in-just-18-months-time-1.3365671

I watched a review of the Volt and that seems like a great hybrid.. 50 or so miles on battery and then engine. But don't know if it's in Ireland.

Shefwedfan

feichin wrote: »

I don't get this obsession with Tesla.
In two years and 115K driving an EV I can say I that I see numerous Leaf's almost every day and plenty of Zoe's, I3's and Ioniq's on a regular basis.
In that two years I have seen a total of two Tesla's.
Even if they are the future (and a distant future at that) at what they cost they should not be compared to your average family saloon / hatchback but should only be compared to similar top of the range luxury cars made by BMW, Audi, Jaguar and the like.

I don't think it is an obsession. I think Tesla are the first company to produce a car that is an alternative to Petrol/diesel. The Leaf just failed as the range was too low.

I didn't see a Tesla either for years, now I see them nearly every day around Dublin. The fact Tesla had no dealership in Ireland was always going to be an issue with the amount of units sold. People buying a premium car do not want the hassle of importing themselves.

Who is comparing the current Tesla range to your average family saloon?

The current range is for the premium customers, if the Tesla 3 every makes it to these shores in any great quantity then you will be able to do a proper comparison. I don't expect that to happen till 2020/2021

ELM327

redlead wrote: »

Is a 30k dollar model 3 going to magically turn into a 50k car in Ireland though? That's my concern. God I'd love to get my hands on one haha

I just feel we need more cars at an ioniq / leaf price range before people start moving en masse towards adopting. I think its safe to assume the range issue will be resolved for most people in the next ten years.

There is no 30k model 3 though

The base price is 35k USD and that's before autopilot and other "options" that are really essential.
There was a great video on youtube at the weekend showing a review of the model3 and the various required options. I think it was carwow but I stand to be corrected.
The price of the tested car was $57k. Autopilot alone is a 5k addon. I can't see the car being available below 50k EUR here.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

There is no 30k model 3 though

The base price is 35k USD and that's before autopilot and other "options" that are really essential.
There was a great video on youtube at the weekend showing a review of the model3 and the various required options. I think it was carwow but I stand to be corrected.
The price of the tested car was $57k. Autopilot alone is a 5k addon. I can't see the car being available below 50k EUR here.

The Tesla 3 will not be and never be an alternative to a Leaf/Zoe.

It is aimed at the 3 series/5 series/A4/A6 market place.

The Tesla S is aimed at the 7 series /merc/highend 5 series market place.

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The Tesla 3 will not be and never be an alternative to a Leaf/Zoe.

It is aimed at the 3 series/5 series/A4/A6 market place.

The Tesla S is aimed at the 7 series /merc/highend 5 series market place.

I'm well aware of that thanks , that was in fact my point above which was directed at the poster wondering if there will be a 30k model 3.

The model 3 will probably come in between the price of a 330e and a 530e. That's their target market IMO.

Model S is a 7/S/A8 competitor.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

I watched a review of the Volt and that seems like a great hybrid.. 50 or so miles on battery and then engine. But don't know if it's in Ireland.

It is in Ireland - well as grey imports of the first gen. ~35-40 miles on battery.
It was sold as the Vauxhall Ampera/Chevrolet Volt.

goz83

ELM327 wrote: »

There is no 30k model 3 though

The base price is 35k USD and that's before autopilot and other "options" that are really essential.
There was a great video on youtube at the weekend showing a review of the model3 and the various required options. I think it was carwow but I stand to be corrected.
The price of the tested car was $57k. Autopilot alone is a 5k addon. I can't see the car being available below 50k EUR here.

The paddy equivalent spec is what we will see here. No autopilot, no extras at all. The bare bones Model 3 (which will still be a great car) is what we will see driving around here.

ELM327

goz83 wrote: »

The paddy equivalent spec is what we will see here. No autopilot, no extras at all. The bare bones Model 3 (which will still be a great car) is what we will see driving around here.

Oh god... we will be the laughing stock of Teslas... everywhere else gets fully autonomous Model3 capable of supercharging etc and we'll get nonAP models on steel wheels
The shame!

Ewan Hoosarmi

Anyway... I would be an EV driver today if there was any availability. Hyundai have screwed themselves over with supply of the Ioniq and Nissan are taking an absolute age to get the new Leaf to market here. The Zoe is available, but very poor value for what it is. Looking forward to see if the Kona will be affordable. Teslas used to be on my radar, but not now.

I just topped off with diesel yesterday. That'll do me for 1000 kms minimum. But I would much rather be plugging in my BEV tonight, or maybe tomorrow, or the next day...

cros13

goz83 wrote: »

The paddy equivalent spec is what we will see here. No autopilot, no extras at all. The bare bones Model 3 (which will still be a great car) is what we will see driving around here.

Nah... we'll get the same spec as everywhere else at least for the first 6-7 years. Most Tesla's are factory orders and the structure of the VRT system means that we;d still have an incentive to spec cars out. Same as the Leaf et. al. none of which are cut down for the Irish market, in fact in some trims of some EVs we get a better spec for less money than the UK does.

ELM327 wrote: »

Oh god... we will be the laughing stock of Teslas... everywhere else gets fully autonomous Model3 capable of supercharging etc and we'll get nonAP models on steel wheels
The shame!

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Autopilot is an essential. While ~60% of Tesla customers do order it, with the model that take-up is likely to be lower. Tesla has been very upfront about the first production run of the model 3 requiring both the premium package ($5000) and the long range battery ($9000). This was both to increase the initial margins until battery production volume had improved and so that they only had to manufacture one spec and had more predictable parts requirements. Nissan are effectively doing the same thing with the launch edition of the Leaf. That the initial production run was a high spec is causing some confusion with reviewers looking at the monroney sticker (the sticker which list official test data and fitted options) and the great uninformed masses stating "oh look it's not a $35k car it's really $57k".
But in a matter of weeks Tesla will be producing the base car and widening the selection of options. The $35k Model 3 will have a more basic interior but it's completing against a BMW 3-series at that price with hard pleather seats and plastic fake aluminium trim.

liamog

goz83 wrote: »

The paddy equivalent spec is what we will see here. No autopilot, no extras at all. The bare bones Model 3 (which will still be a great car) is what we will see driving around here.

The only reason we have paddy spec cars is that importers under spec the car to lower the VRT. For Tesla, their is no importer. They sell direct to the consumer, the only reason anyone will have a bare bones car is because that's what they ordered.

ELM327

@Cros13
I never said it was essential.
Quite frankly you've reworded my post to suit yours, and referred to my comments as those "of the uninformed masses".

We will not see a model 3 for sale here for the equivalent of $35k.. that's what, €30-32k?
Not a hope. Will be closer to €50k for even the base model. Possibly a bargain basement "XE" spec with steelies and windy windows, no AP or supercharging for €40k

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

The only reason we have paddy spec cars is that importers under spec the car to lower the VRT. For Tesla, their is no importer. They sell direct to the consumer, the only reason anyone will have a bare bones car is because that's what they ordered.

But there is an "import" of the car, and VRT will still be due. With a 5k subsidy still... there will be some VRT to pay when buying it new.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

But there is an "import" of the car, and VRT will still be due. With a 5k subsidy still... there will be some VRT to pay when buying it new.

Hyundai Ireland decided on the spec of the Ioniq Premium.
liamog decides on the spec of his Model 3.

daheff

I see 2 things preventing me from buying an EV for the moment

1- Range.
2- Charging. Time & availability of charging facilities


Get a reasonable range and charging facility network and more people will buy EVs.

goz83

daheff wrote: »

I see 2 things preventing me from buying an EV for the moment

1- Range.
2- Charging. Time & availability of charging facilities


Get a reasonable range and charging facility network and more people will buy EVs.

What is your driving pattern like? Commute to work and home? Motorway...national roads. How often do you drive outside of that range? How many seats do you need?

daheff

goz83 wrote: »

What is your driving pattern like? Commute to work and home? Motorway...national roads. How often do you drive outside of that range? How many seats do you need?

Its a bit of both....work round trip is circa 40km across motorway and back road/ through town too. But weekends away down country to family would be 150-200km+ each way, as well as driving around there.


Need a family car as well.

unkel

It's quite possible I'll be buying a new Model 3 in a few years time. But there's no way I would pay €5k for AP, which is essentially just a gimmick. It makes driving easier, is more relaxed and safer, but I just couldn't bring myself to spend that kind of money on it.

ELM327

It's not a gimmick now.
In 5 years time it will probably be level 5 fully autonomous... legislation allowing.

liamog

You have to love that Tesla AP is 1/6 of an Ioniq, which has pretty much the same features out of the box.

Tesla FSD (Full Self Driving) is the level 5 autonomy.

ELM327

1/6 of an Ioniq?
That's not a view confirmed by anyone online... eg Bjorn Nyland who drove both and described the Ioniq as having "autopilot-ish"

Greyian

ELM327 wrote: »

1/6 of an Ioniq?
That's not a view confirmed by anyone online... eg Bjorn Nyland who drove both and described the Ioniq as having "autopilot-ish"

I'd assume what he meant is that autopilot on the Model 3 costs about 1/6th of the price of an Ioniq.

The Model 3 looks like it will be a far superior car though, so no real point in comparing.

goz83

daheff wrote: »

Its a bit of both....work round trip is circa 40km across motorway and back road/ through town too. But weekends away down country to family would be 150-200km+ each way, as well as driving around there.

So an Ioniq, or Leaf 2 would easily cover your commute to work and would also work on the longer journeys at the weekend. You either top up at a fast charger before you arrive, or plug into a socket at your families....assuming there is access to electricity within 5m of where the car would be parked.

daheff wrote: »

Need a family car as well.

I have two 24kWh Leafs and 5 kids from 1 to 14. They are quite family friendly cars.....unless you mean you need a people carrier, or very large car for a family car?

liamog

Greyian wrote: »

I'd assume what he meant is that autopilot on the Model 3 costs about 1/6th of the price of an Ioniq.

The Model 3 looks like it will be a far superior car though, so no real point in comparing.

Thanks, that's exactly what I meant.
I wasn't trying to claim that the Ioniq was 6 times better than Tesla AP2.

Having said that, the assistive features are probably 2/3 of the current Tesla AP2 capabilities.

Mick ah

feichin wrote: »

I don't get this obsession with Tesla.
In two years and 115K driving an EV I can say I that I see numerous Leaf's almost every day and plenty of Zoe's, I3's and Ioniq's on a regular basis.
In that two years I have seen a total of two Tesla's. . . . . .

Apologies, I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I have to address this point. And this isn't an attack on the poster. Just something that might not be obvious to everyone:


Despite the massive (and I mean massive) leaps that Ireland has taken in the areas of standard of living and wealth, we are not a wealthy country compared to the US.

Graduate engineers here are lucky to make 30k. They'd make double that in the US (that's just one example). There are hundreds of thousands of people in the US on 150k+ a year. There's massive amounts of money in the country. And so there's loads of Teslas there. Same in Norway, which is loaded.

We simply don't have the money to buy Teslas in any great numbers here. That's why you haven't seen many.

I went to Scotland with my job for 4 days and saw two Model S, pass each other.

Tesla is pushing the envelope and they've lit a fire under the big manufacturers. We won't see many. But they're a bigger contender in wealthier countries.

unkel

Nothing to do with money, Mick ah. One of the most common cars in this country is the BMW520d. This car costs as much to own over 3 years as a Tesla Model S for someone doing big miles. That's why most taxi drivers in Amsterdam are buying Teslas these days. Are these taxi drivers rich? Of course not.

And of course Tesla is American. The first interesting US luxury car that can compete with the best of Germany since probably before WW2. Of course the Americans are buying them!

Mick ah

unkel wrote: »

Nothing to do with money, Mick ah. One of the most common cars in this country is the BMW520d. This car costs as much to own over 3 years as a Tesla Model S for someone doing big miles. That's why most taxi drivers in Amsterdam are buying Teslas these days. Are these taxi drivers rich? Of course not.

I dunno about that. Our Dutch friends are from a country where logic rules. They did the maths and realised that a Model S would make business sense. And their bank manager agreed.

While you're absolutely correct about the 520d. I don't think most Irish people see it that way. The thought of dropping as much on a car as you would on a house in the Midlands is just too much for most people. Plus, access to credit would be another issue, how many BMWs do you think were bought for cash?

The point I was making was that we simply have a tiny potential pool of owners in this country. In absolute, and proportional terms there's a bigger pool in the US. Hence the small number on Irish roads.

cros13

ELM327 wrote: »

@Cros13
I never said it was essential.
Quite frankly you've reworded my post to suit yours, and referred to my comments as those "of the uninformed masses".

"the uninformed masses" I was referring to were the commenters on the reviews on general automotive sites.

ELM327 wrote: »

We will not see a model 3 for sale here for the equivalent of $35k.. that's what, €30-32k?
Not a hope. Will be closer to €50k for even the base model. Possibly a bargain basement "XE" spec with steelies and windy windows, no AP or supercharging for €40k

My long standing bet since 2 years ago is €35-40k base. And the base will be identical to the US/UK. Removing supercharging and AP for the Irish market would actually cost Tesla more than leaving it in. That represents a few hundred euro in sensors and copper cable. If they sold tens of thousands of model 3s in Ireland and left the prices the same they'd barely cover the tooling and design costs of making plastic blanking plates to cover the spaces where those sensors were removed and the costs of putting a different SKU on the production line and ordering system.

Again, the model 3 base price before taxes and incentives is substantially below the base i3's factory invoice price and the new i3's base price here is €36,330.
The base model 3 in the US is exactly $5,010 more than the equivalent of the base XE/Visia Leaf 2.0 (Leaf S - $29,990) that will be selling here for ~€25k.
So yeah... even a good chance of it hitting Irish roads for ~€31-32k

Shefwedfan

Something interested was posted in VW forum. A guy is saying why all the manufacturers have 2019 as release dates is because of new CO2 measures coming in for Europe. The manufacturers are lobbying to get this removed.

If they succeed then you will quickly see all of those dates disappear and no electric cars. I dont quick google and most european based car manufacturers have 2019 dates(Volvo, VW etc).

I tried to find the CO2 law but only found a reference to 2020?? any idea if correct or not?

thierry14

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Something interested was posted in VW forum. A guy is saying why all the manufacturers have 2019 as release dates is because of new CO2 measures coming in for Europe. The manufacturers are lobbying to get this removed.

If they succeed then you will quickly see all of those dates disappear and no electric cars. I dont quick google and most european based car manufacturers have 2019 dates(Volvo, VW etc).

I tried to find the CO2 law but only found a reference to 2020?? any idea if correct or not?

Germans are lobbying alright and hard, billions at stake

Why people buy from those [snip]
Let them try at their peril

I hope they get it removed.

Electric is coming whether they like or not

[mod edit] Easy on the attitude.

daheff

goz83 wrote: »

So an Ioniq, or Leaf 2 would easily cover your commute to work and would also work on the longer journeys at the weekend. You either top up at a fast charger before you arrive, or plug into a socket at your families....assuming there is access to electricity within 5m of where the car would be parked.



I have two 24kWh Leafs and 5 kids from 1 to 14. They are quite family friendly cars.....unless you mean you need a people carrier, or very large car for a family car?

Thanks for this.

While I can get a charger fitted at home, the problem is moreso that there arent sufficient points around outside Dublin that would allow any kind of weekend travel (I don't want to spend half the weekend travelling to/from/waiting for a charge).


really a much more extensive charging network is required (possibly even requirements for all new housing to have them already installed)

Any 13A socket is a charger so there are plenty of destination chargers around. You might need to bring a cable reel.

Where in Ireland you would find it difficult to occasionally drive to with a car of say 200+ km of range? You'd probably need to spend 30 minutes to charge to reach a corner. This is a pretty small island.

daheff

samih wrote: »

Any 13A socket is a charger so there are plenty of destination chargers around. You might need to bring a cable reel.

Where in Ireland you would find it difficult to occasionally drive to with a car of say 200+ km of range? You'd probably need to spend 30 minutes to charge to reach a corner. This is a pretty small island.

try between clifden and westport.

66km between the two nearest charging stations there. Thats a third of your range (possibly more as its not flat terrain).

Or Belmullet to Westport ...80+km

https://www.esb.ie/our-businesses/ecars/charge-point-map



Edit - I'm not against the idea of EVs....I just think we have a long way to go to get the range and quick charging facilities in place. If people can rely on the car to go where it needs to go, or be reasonably confident in being able to quickly recharge it, then its a no brainer.....but the reasonably confident quick recharge isnt there yet.

Shefwedfan

daheff wrote: »

try between clifden and westport.

66km between the two nearest charging stations there. Thats a third of your range (possibly more as its not flat terrain).

Or Belmullet to Westport ...80+km

https://www.esb.ie/our-businesses/ecars/charge-point-map



Edit - I'm not against the idea of EVs....I just think we have a long way to go to get the range and quick charging facilities in place. If people can rely on the car to go where it needs to go, or be reasonably confident in being able to quickly recharge it, then its a no brainer.....but the reasonably confident quick recharge isnt there yet.

If you dont want to buy an electric cars you can always find 100 reasons not to buy one....the people that are interested will find the 100 reasons why they should buy electric car.

If you can't find any of those 100 reasons then electric is not for you.

If you are interested, then find which car you are buying. Check real world range and then draw a circle on maps from there, tool below. It will tell you all you need to know

https://www.freemaptools.com/radius-around-point.htm

P.S Ireland is bloody tiny....you will be surprised how far you can travel

JohnBoy26

redlead wrote: »

We often see stats that mass adoption of EVs is right around the corner i.e there will be a jump by 2020 and a very large percentage by 2030 etc. I'm pretty sure I'm going switch my second car to a fully EV around 2020 but when I look at the way the motor industry is approaching EVs I can't see many people doing likewise.

Nissan/Renault and hyundai seem to be the only companies making an effort. To obtain mass adoption you need most big manufacturers to be producing affordable EVs like the Leaf or Zoe which will drive on the technology. The chevy Bolt looks impressive but not sure if that's going to make its way over here with the sale of GM?

The attitude of Volkswagen and Toyota leaves a lot to be desired. Why is the egolf so expensive? This costs 30k in the US and is 45 here after incentives as far as I can see. This is for a golf. A company Volkswagens size should have a direct competitor for the leaf. Not a rip off golf no one is going to buy or a niche up. Toyota only seem interested in pushing non plug in hybrids. Their current advertising campaign highlights the fact that you don't have to plug it in as a good thing. It's a totally different technology and not one going in the right path.

Companies making expensive luxury EVs are only ever going to be niche. I applaud Tesla for making the model 3 but their lack of availability is a major issue. We need the the big companies to start making and promoting affordable EVs and most don't seem overly interested. Is there a lot more in the pipeline that I am not aware of?

It could be argued that ev's are not on the right path either. The cost of the battery and it's carbon footprint both in manufacturing and disposal is never taken into account plus the power they get to charge the batteries is in many cases coming from fossil fuel burning power stations but you never hear about that.

Toyota hybrid is a very good system and offers the best of both worlds. They have good mpg, low emissions and you don't have to rely on the poor network of charging stations to replenish the battery.

KCross

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

It could be argued that ev's are not on the right path either. The cost of the battery and it's carbon footprint both in manufacturing and disposal is never taken into account plus the power they get to charge the batteries is in many cases coming from fossil fuel burning power stations but you never hear about that.

Toyota hybrid is a very good system and offers the best of both worlds. They have good mpg, low emissions and you don't have to rely on the poor network of charging stations to replenish the battery.

There are plenty discussions on here about those things!

Its hard to accurately quantify a full end-end carbon footprint for manufacturing EV's or traditional combustion cars.

Some studies have been done and to be honest it usually favours EV but how do you trust any of these studies as the conclusions are usually related to who funded the study!



However if you are burning any petrol or diesel (even good quality hybrids) you are causing pollution at the point of use (which is a bad thing). I'd rather those emissions be in a controlled and regulated power station than on the street/schools etc from a car that has cheated on its emissions tests!!



The grid emissions in Ireland are well documented. We have quite a lot of renewable energy so I think the "dirty power stations" argument does not really apply here considering the emissions that are generated from creating a litre of petrol/diesel (extraction, refining, delivering) and then the emissions at the point of use. At least a good portion of EV energy is from renewable. None of a hybrids energy is renewable.

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105871559&postcount=135



The battery disposal thing is also usually over-stated. The batteries don't get dumped once the car reaches end of life(10+yrs). They get re-used in various other grid and home storage applications so they should get 20+yrs of use and then they can be further recycled down to their raw constituent parts and reused again to create new batteries.

https://youtu.be/cXan_-AawKs
https://cleantechnica.com/2017/08/31/renault-second-life-batteries-bring-ev-charging-less-connected-highways/
http://images.electricalsector.eaton.com/Web/EatonElectrical/%7B243ea2da-aa0a-4be2-a7e9-ff7b4cdb21a2%7D_xStorage_homeBrochure_september__LR.pdf

Shefwedfan

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

It could be argued that ev's are not on the right path either. The cost of the battery and it's carbon footprint both in manufacturing and disposal is never taken into account plus the power they get to charge the batteries is in many cases coming from fossil fuel burning power stations but you never hear about that.

Toyota hybrid is a very good system and offers the best of both worlds. They have good mpg, low emissions and you don't have to rely on the poor network of charging stations to replenish the battery.

It is argued and very poorly....as kcross mentions Ireland is pushing more towards renewable energy so that argument doesn't work.

I have sat with companies who work in EU and long term plans would be solar and wind to provide a super power highway for Europe.

No real proper information is available yet on batteries so unknown yet. Most people argue the batteries will be thrown away, this is incorrect as most companies will be able to reuse. I know for battery drills etc they have options to regenerate after they go dead.

Hybrid is not a good system, it is better than diesel but it is still spewing out fumes into the environment.

You dont need to rely on network, I have car 12 months now and in that time I had to use the charging system once. The one time I had to use it I was gone in 20 mins. Every other time I charged at home. Plus my car only does 120km per charge, Ioniq/Leaf 2 etc are all better mileage than I can do.

redlead

Even putting aside that a large percentage of Irelands energy is sourced from renenewables, if all our electricity was sourced entirely from coal, EVs would still be massively cleaner than petrol or diesel. The energy consumption used to create petrol is absolutely mind boggling. Robert Lewellyn visited a petrol refinery in Wales that needs its own power station just to run it. The general manager there said that they use more energy every year than the entire city of Coventry. Then there is the cost of drilling it and shipping it ........ And the wars and bloodshed. There's just no comparison.

ELM327

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

It could be argued that ev's are not on the right path either. The cost of the battery and it's carbon footprint both in manufacturing and disposal is never taken into account plus the power they get to charge the batteries is in many cases coming from fossil fuel burning power stations but you never hear about that.

Toyota hybrid is a very good system and offers the best of both worlds. They have good mpg, low emissions and you don't have to rely on the poor network of charging stations to replenish the battery.

What a silly, misinformed propoganda like statement.

It's been shown that even in the US in states where the electricity is 100% fossil fuel that an EV is a more efficient way of burning fossil fuels.

You still have batteries and all the carbon footprint in a toyota hybrid. Should we all go and buy austin princesses?