People winning races now wouldn't have a look in 30 years ago

Djoucer

https://www.buzz.ie/amp/sport/irish-athletes-dont-hard-edge-past-269743?__twitter_impression=true

Excellent, wide ranging interview with Patsy McGonagle.

Some choice quotes.

"It might be an old school way of thinking, but Ireland has got soft,'' he said.

"But the people winning the races now wouldn't have got a look-in 30 years ago."

Worth a read.

Chivito550

Love the way he cherry picks distance running for his comparison with 20 and 30 years ago. What about sprints and hurdles and 800m? National records plummeting, 5 medals for Derval O’Rourke and a world 4th, Olympic 4th for Thomas Barr, World 6th for David Gillick and 2 European Indoor golds, World indoor medals for Paul McKee and Irish 4x4. Irish 4x4 5th in European Outdoors twice, Paul Hession in top 12 at global outdoor level 3 years in a row, 2 European medals for Mark English.

What were we achieving 20 or 30 years ago in sprints and 800? Before Susan Smith arrived on the scene, sweet F all.

And what about all the medals won in the race walk since 2003?

Field events, we are not much worse than 30 years ago. Deirdre Ryan and Eileen O’Keefe both top 6 at Worlds in recent years.

So frustrating to consistently hear this rubbish about Irish athletics being in decline based on one discipline.

No no, Irish DISTANCE RUNNING is in decline.

Testosterscone

Not the biggest fan of Patsy but I have to say I do agree with him. The sheer number of races and self gratification element of social media coupled with the general ignorance of race performances to an extent mean that it is too easy to avoid competition and get adulation. You get more praise from winning a local 10k in 38 min than you do for coming 50th in 35 min or the likes.

The world is changing and instant results are expected to the point that perception of hard work is alien to most. People want to know the secret to success be it types of sessions, shoes, gels, recovery aids but switch off when you talk about things like long term approach or consistency.

Give you an example. Eliud Kipchoges marathon training plan is available free on line and goes largely unnoticed while the Vaporfly shoes (not his particular ones but the version released to the public) have been sold out pretty much the last 3 months in many places across the world.

Chivito550

Testosterscone wrote: »

Not the biggest fan of Patsy but I have to say I do agree with him. The sheer number of races and self gratification element of social media coupled with the general ignorance of race performances to an extent mean that it is too easy to avoid competition and get adulation. You get more praise from winning a local 10k in 38 min than you do for coming 50th in 35 min or the likes.

The world is changing and instant results are expected to the point that perception of hard work is alien to most. People want to know the secret to success be it types of sessions, shoes, gels, recovery aids but switch off when you talk about things like long term approach or consistency.

Give you an example. Eliud Kipchoges marathon training plan is available free on line and goes largely unnoticed while the Vaporfly shoes (not his particular ones but the version released to the public) have been sold out pretty much the last 3 months in many places across the world.

His points are valid regarding one specific part of the entire sport which he was involved in.

OOnegative

He is right on the ‘soft’ comment though, just the way the world is evolving. Most are looking for the quick way to running fast without all the hard work in between.

Testosterscone

Chivito550 wrote: »

His points are valid regarding one specific part of the entire sport which he was involved in.

Field event's are seeing less and less McDonagh's, McHugh's, O'Keefe's, Ryan's coming through though

I think the point is not as much single individuals but rather cultures. The people coming through are the exception. How many clubs or groups are regularly churning out athletes of a high calibre. Majority of AAI registered runners have an apathy for competition.

Sprints is bucking the trend a bit but again there is an element of softness there as well in that this are on the rise with facilities of greater comfort causing the higher workload resulting in better results or is it just a handful of coaches (The John Shields, Jeremy Lyons, Shane McCormack) instilling the exact type of cultures referred to that are slightly bucking this trend.

Chivito550

Testosterscone wrote: »

Field event's are seeing less and less McDonagh's, McHugh's, O'Keefe's, Ryan's coming through though

I think the point is not as much single individuals but rather cultures. The people coming through are the exception. How many clubs or groups are regularly churning out athletes of a high calibre. Majority of AAI registered runners have an apathy for competition.

Sprints is bucking the trend a bit but again there is an element of softness there as well in that this are on the rise with facilities of greater comfort causing the higher workload resulting in better results or is it just a handful of coaches (The John Shields, Jeremy Lyons, Shane McCormack) instilling the exact type of cultures referred to that are slightly bucking this trend.

I agree field events is very poor, but it has been poor for a long time.

If you look at records at all age groups in all disciplines, indoor and out in sprints and hurdles, most of them come from the last 10 years or so (Susan Smith an exception). You don’t fluke that. We are streets ahead of where we were 30 years ago in those disciplines.

Testosterscone

Chivito550 wrote: »

If you look at records at all age groups in all disciplines, indoor and out in sprints and hurdles, most of them come from the last 10 years or so (Susan Smith an exception). You don’t fluke that. We are streets ahead of where we were 30 years ago in those disciplines.

Never claimed it was a fluke my point was that with change in facilities the trend of going from seasonal to all year round training can have an impact. Having these facilities as well as the likes of the groups mentioned trying to instill a mentality of excellence could contribute.

I think why distance is at the forefront in regard to this article is that it refers to the events we were competing at consistently at the highest level (the likes of the mile in particular) from other perspectives we were never at the world stage level.

As a whole though we are becoming softer;

- At general club level (the likes of you and me)
- At more competitive club level (migration up in distances aka the Jerry Kiernan approach)
- The emergence of a mass participation level
- The migration from 5k/10k to Steeple/Marathon
- The decline of cross country

Murph_D

Why is this happening?

There was a mass participation element in the 70s and 80s (Yogging, as Anchorman called it). :pac: So that's not it.

More AAI athletes, but less competitive. That seems the case alright - many of the people I train with at the club race rarely if ever.

I don't buy the social media and sense of entitlement argument - not that it doesn't exist, just that exists on a separate plane to the more competitive element. Shares the course and contributes much of the revenue to road races (big and small). It can be annoying but surely can be tolerated - a seperate issue from decline in distance performances. Besides, much of the non-competitive segment consists of people taking up the sport relatively late in life, certainly later than ideal for becoming a competitive force, even at masters level.

I'd imagine the real culprit is more general lifestyle change. Kids less likely to get involved due to more having more choices, digital gaming, combined with parents too busy to help out with the supervision that wasn't deemed necessary in ye olde days.

squinn2912

Testosterscone wrote: »

Not the biggest fan of Patsy but I have to say I do agree with him. The sheer number of races and self gratification element of social media coupled with the general ignorance of race performances to an extent mean that it is too easy to avoid competition and get adulation. You get more praise from winning a local 10k in 38 min than you do for coming 50th in 35 min or the likes.

The world is changing and instant results are expected to the point that perception of hard work is alien to most. People want to know the secret to success be it types of sessions, shoes, gels, recovery aids but switch off when you talk about things like long term approach or consistency.

Give you an example. Eliud Kipchoges marathon training plan is available free on line and goes largely unnoticed while the Vaporfly shoes (not his particular ones but the version released to the public) have been sold out pretty much the last 3 months in many places across the world.

Any links to that plan?

adrian522

http://www.sweatelite.co/eliud-kipchoge-full-training-log-leading-marathon-world-record-attempt/

Chivito550

Below is the year the Irish record was set in the following championship disciplines in sprints and hurdles:

I've highlighted the records which have occurred since the turn of the century in bold.

Outdoor Senior:

100m M 2007
200m M 2007
400m M 2009
110mH M 1999
400mH M 2016
100m W 2010/2014
200m W 2001
400m W 2007
100mH W 2010
400mH W 1998

Outdoor Junior:

100m M 2013
200m M 2013
400m M 2017
110mH M 2015
400mH M 2011
100m W 1978
200m W 2000
400m W 2003
100mH W 2013
400mH W 2013

Outdoor U23:

100m M 2017
200m M 2012
400m M 1986
110mH M 2012
400mH M 2014
100m W 1978
200m W 2002
400m W 2006
100mH W 2003
400mH W 2011

Indoor Senior:

60m M 2007
400m M 2007/2010
60mH M 1999
60m W 2007/2017
400m W 2002
60mH W 2006

Indoor Junior:

60m M 2015
400m M 2002
60mH M 2015
60m W 2017
400m W 2016
60mH W 2013

Indoor U23:

60m M 2002
400m M 2005
60mH M 2012
60m W 2017
400m W 1998
60mH W 2003

Just 7 of he 48 records have come from the last century. Yeh, those lads from 30 years ago were something else alright!

Testosterscone

Murph_D wrote: »

Why is this happening?

There was a mass participation element in the 70s and 80s (Yogging, as Anchorman called it). :pac: So that's not it.

More AAI athletes, but less competitive. That seems the case alright - many of the people I train with at the club race rarely if ever.

I don't buy the social media and sense of entitlement argument - not that it doesn't exist, just that exists on a separate plane to the more competitive element. Shares the course and contributes much of the revenue to road races (big and small). It can be annoying but surely can be tolerated - a seperate issue from decline in distance performances. Besides, much of the non-competitive segment consists of people taking up the sport relatively late in life, certainly later than ideal for becoming a competitive force, even at masters level.

I'd imagine the real culprit is more general lifestyle change. Kids less likely to get involved due to more having more choices, digital gaming, combined with parents too busy to help out with the supervision that wasn't deemed necessary in ye olde days.

I agree with you that it is not the crux of it but I do believe that it does have an impact through the field. Even at the front end due to the eroding prize funds lads are avoiding each other to an extent to pick up easier prize money and in some cases are non existent on competitive field outside of races which serve their own purpose or brand.

I do believe lifestyle has a major factor in developing younger talent and bringing them tryw no denying that, but that being said I this has influenced culture and approach of those to who stay in the sport. The likes of Krusty Clown and Dublin Runner ; poster boys for improvement are seen as outliers in terms of training rather than the norm regarding consistency and hard work.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Below is the year the Irish record was set in the following championship disciplines in sprints and hurdles:

I've highlighted the records which have occurred since the turn of the century in bold.

Outdoor Senior:

100m M 2007
200m M 2007
400m M 2009
110mH M 1999
400mH M 2016
100m W 2010/2014
200m W 2001
400m W 2007
100mH W 2010
400mH W 1998

Outdoor Junior:

100m M 2013
200m M 2013
400m M 2017
110mH M 2015
400mH M 2011
100m W 1978
200m W 2000
400m W 2003
100mH W 2013
400mH W 2013

Outdoor U23:

100m M 2017
200m M 2012
400m M 1986
110mH M 2012
400mH M 2014
100m W 1978
200m W 2002
400m W 2006
100mH W 2003
400mH W 2011

Indoor Senior:

60m M 2007
400m M 2007/2010
60mH M 1999
60m W 2007/2017
400m W 2002
60mH W 2006

Indoor Junior:

60m M 2015
400m M 2002
60mH M 2015
60m W 2017
400m W 2016
60mH W 2013

Indoor U23:

60m M 2002
400m M 2005
60mH M 2012
60m W 2017
400m W 1998
60mH W 2003

Just 7 of he 48 records have come from the last century. Yeh, those lads from 30 years ago were something else alright!

Take a step back and look beyond the records though. He is not saying that we haven't gotten faster but that we have gotten softer (i.e less people wanting to work hard) which can't be denied. There are a number of factors which influence the improvement of sprinting in this country (access to online coaching resource, facilities etc) however that doesn't make it immune to the soft element. Take for example the Ton na Gaoithe meet, a great inititative which has been very successful and attracted large numbers based on the premise that you won't have to run into a headwind. Runners be it sprinters, distance etc are having to be coaxed into competition by making the external factors easier.

Chivito550

Testosterscone wrote: »

I agree with you that it is not the crux of it but I do believe that it does have an impact through the field. Even at the front end due to the eroding prize funds lads are avoiding each other to an extent to pick up easier prize money and in some cases are non existent on competitive field outside of races which serve their own purpose or brand.

I do believe lifestyle has a major factor in developing younger talent and bringing them tryw no denying that, but that being said I this has influenced culture and approach of those to who stay in the sport. The likes of Krusty Clown and Dublin Runner ; poster boys for improvement are seen as outliers in terms of training rather than the norm regarding consistency and hard work.



Take a step back and look beyond the records though. He is not saying that we haven't gotten faster but that we have gotten softer (i.e less people wanting to work hard) which can't be denied. There are a number of factors which influence the improvement of sprinting in this country (access to online coaching resource, facilities etc) however that doesn't make it immune to the soft element. Take for example the Ton na Gaoithe meet, a great inititative which has been very successful and attracted large numbers based on the premise that you won't have to run into a headwind. Runners be it sprinters, distance etc are having to be coaxed into competition by making the external factors easier.

Ah come on. He’s going on about guys winning races who would be nowhere 30 years ago. He’s going on about guys running way slower now than 30 years ago. This is what he is saying. It is right there in print.

Ton le Gaoithe is not soft, it is smart. Our sport has a stupid qualification system where it is based on time. Ireland is a very windy country and is rarely warm. Conditions here are rarely ideal for sprinting, and athletes have to go to Belgium to get good conditions. Why not give our athletes any kind of slight improvement in their chances of running a quick time? This sort of thing should be applauded.

Testosterscone

Chivito550 wrote: »

Ah come on. He’s going on about guys winning races who would be nowhere 30 years ago. He’s going on about guys running way slower now than 30 years ago. This is what he is saying. It is right there in print.

Ton le Gaoithe is not soft, it is smart. Our sport has a stupid qualification system where it is based on time. Ireland is a very windy country and is rarely warm. Conditions here are rarely ideal for sprinting, and athletes have to go to Belgium to get good conditions. Why not give our athletes any kind of slight improvement in their chances of running a quick time? This sort of thing should be applauded.

He is also talking about the world stage and we simply weren't competing in sprints at that level in the past so you could argue that distance running is implied in the article.

How many of the Sprinters at TNG meet realistically are chasing standards though? yet despite that numbers are up across all levels and how many won't be seen come nationals. I get what you are saying about giving them opportunities but my point is that there are many in the sport who want these conditions or they won't run meets.

Without picking on you here but its an example of the point I am trying to make, aren't there some races/ tracks you flat out won't run because they are percieved as slow tracks?

This is not a criticism of you by the way but just highlighting the point that in general we are all a bit softer these days. It's by design civilization has spent the last +50 years striving to make our lives easier to the point where hard work is not really something valued unless it has a monetary incentive.

youngrun

True for distance running and road races which is what I reckon he is referring too and not sprints/track events,

Id agree Local race of decent prestige was won in a poor time at weekend , average five k might only see 2/3 men sub 17 out of 300 etc etc .

A big part is the age profile. Typical race now is mostly vets 35+ . People are not doing decent mileage. All the focus is on the Marathon among a huge part of club members /non members also .

Very few running road/XC/marathon in their 20s at a good level

Athletics has lost the 20-35 age bracket runner and needs to market itself and target this generation eg the guy /girl who gave up at 15/16 ( I was one ) and get them back during/after college/early to mid 20s . There must be 50,000 on the AI Database in the last 10 years in that bracket

OOnegative

Testosterscone wrote: »

He is also talking about the world stage and we simply weren't competing in sprints at that level in the past so you could argue that distance running is implied in the article.

How many of the Sprinters at TNG meet realistically are chasing standards though? yet despite that numbers are up across all levels and how many won't be seen come nationals. I get what you are saying about giving them opportunities but my point is that there are many in the sport who want these conditions or they won't run meets.

Without picking on you here but its an example of the point I am trying to make, aren't there some races/ tracks you flat out won't run because they are percieved as slow tracks?

This is not a criticism of you by the way but just highlighting the point that in general we are all a bit softer these days. It's by design civilization has spent the last +50 years striving to make our lives easier to the point where hard work is not really something valued unless it has a monetary incentive.

You cpould use this in regards road running to, one of the first questions someone will ask when looking for info on a race "Is it hilly?". They will then choose to avoid that race as it does not offer PB potential or is to difficult.

Chivito550

Testosterscone wrote: »

He is also talking about the world stage and we simply weren't competing in sprints at that level in the past so you could argue that distance running is implied in the article.

How many of the Sprinters at TNG meet realistically are chasing standards though? yet despite that numbers are up across all levels and how many won't be seen come nationals. I get what you are saying about giving them opportunities but my point is that there are many in the sport who want these conditions or they won't run meets.



Without picking on you here but its an example of the point I am trying to make, aren't there some races/ tracks you flat out won't run because they are percieved as slow tracks?

This is not a criticism of you by the way but just highlighting the point that in general we are all a bit softer these days. It's by design civilization has spent the last +50 years striving to make our lives easier to the point where hard work is not really something valued unless it has a monetary incentive.

Point about me is irrelevant. Because of a lack of depth down to mid and lower levels here in sprinting, I’m never going to be competitive. I’d love there to be 50 guys in Ireland running 24-26 seconds but there aren’t. Distance runners of my standard on IAAF points have the luxury in the roads of running against vastly slower runners that they will always rank highly and always have people at their level or below their level to beat. I rarely have that, so I am 100% running for time. It’s not soft to pick the most optimal tracks/conditions in that scenario. It is smart.

I ran on many sh1te tracks in Melbourne. I was competitive in races there. Wasn’t running solely for time.

Ton le Gaoithe is very handy for those chasing junior and U23 qualification standards.

Testosterscone

OOnegative wrote: »

You cpould use this in regards road running to, one of the first questions someone will ask when looking for info on a race "Is it hilly?". They will then choose to avoid that race as it does not offer PB potential or is to difficult.

Completely and people do. That is the point I am making we are soft, we are looking for the easiest way to have credibility

Chivito550 wrote: »

Point about me is irrelevant. Because of a lack of depth down to mid and lower levels here in sprinting, I’m never going to be competitive. I’d love there to be 50 guys in Ireland running 24-26 seconds but there aren’t. Distance runners of my standard on IAAF points have the luxury in the roads of running against vastly slower runners that they will always rank highly and always have people at their level or below their level to beat. I rarely have that, so I am 100% running for time. It’s not soft to pick the most optimal tracks/conditions in that scenario. It is smart.

Ton le Gaoithe is very handy for those chasing junior and U23 qualification standards.

It's actually the point.

We 90% aren't training hard enough so we keep scaling back the benchmark rather than say right what do I need to do to get to that point. Most of us aren't willing to sacrifice that extra hour lie in of a winter morning to fit in an extra session, or that extra half hour in front of the TV. Most aren't willing to put in that extra 20 min of drills 2 to 3 times a week before sessions

Youngrun makes the point about the lost demographic but that ties into the fact that running to a higher level is seen as too much of a sacrifice or too much work for the reward so many quit.

Chivito550

Testosterscone wrote: »

Completely and people do. That is the point I am making we are soft, we are looking for the easiest way to have credibility



It's actually the point.

We 90% aren't training hard enough so we keep scaling back the benchmark rather than say right what do I need to do to get to that point. Most of us aren't willing to sacrifice that extra hour lie in of a winter morning to fit in an extra session, or that extra half hour in front of the TV. Most aren't willing to put in that extra 20 min of drills 2 to 3 times a week before sessions

Youngrun makes the point about the lost demographic but that ties into the fact that running to a higher level is seen as too much of a sacrifice or too much work for the reward so many quit.

Obviously if I train like a full time athlete, and make athletics 100% my life, I’d run a little quicker. It’s not realistic though, unless JP McManus wants to fund me to train as a full time athlete for a year.

Increased sacrifices doesn’t always result in better results. My most disappointing season was the year when I made all those sacrifices you talk about. The only year I didn’t run any meaningful PBs. Nothing went right that year.

Anyway, I’d prefer not to be making this discussion about my own running. Patsy is talking about elite athletes.

thierry14

Chivito550 wrote: »

Below is the year the Irish record was set in the following championship disciplines in sprints and hurdles:

I've highlighted the records which have occurred since the turn of the century in bold.

Outdoor Senior:

100m M 2007
200m M 2007
400m M 2009
110mH M 1999
400mH M 2016
100m W 2010/2014
200m W 2001
400m W 2007
100mH W 2010
400mH W 1998

Outdoor Junior:

100m M 2013
200m M 2013
400m M 2017
110mH M 2015
400mH M 2011
100m W 1978
200m W 2000
400m W 2003
100mH W 2013
400mH W 2013

Outdoor U23:

100m M 2017
200m M 2012
400m M 1986
110mH M 2012
400mH M 2014
100m W 1978
200m W 2002
400m W 2006
100mH W 2003
400mH W 2011

Indoor Senior:

60m M 2007
400m M 2007/2010
60mH M 1999
60m W 2007/2017
400m W 2002
60mH W 2006

Indoor Junior:

60m M 2015
400m M 2002
60mH M 2015
60m W 2017
400m W 2016
60mH W 2013

Indoor U23:

60m M 2002
400m M 2005
60mH M 2012
60m W 2017
400m W 1998
60mH W 2003

Just 7 of he 48 records have come from the last century. Yeh, those lads from 30 years ago were something else alright!

Short distance

The easiest thing to train for with modern methods

RayCun

We had Jerry Kiernan out talking to the club a few weeks ago, he talked a bit about his training and racing. He (and Dick Hooper, and most of the people they were racing) worked full-time, but managed to fit in a huge amount of training around it. How many of today's distance runners do that? The attitude today seems to be that you can only commit to the sport if the sport also provides your livelihood, directly or indirectly. So lots of people who basically quit after college, because they don't think they can combine training with a 9-5 job.

Not so much of a problem for sprinters because they peak earlier, and sprinters don't need a strong training/competing group as much as they need facilities and coaches.

Testosterscone

Chivito550 wrote: »

Anyway, I’d prefer not to be making this discussion about my own running. Patsy is talking about elite athletes.

I was not trying to make it personal thing more just using that as an example. I am the same myself I cut corners as well. My point was and i refer back to the likes of DR and KC there training is viewed by many as excessive rather than the norm which highlight's the skewed perception of hard work.

His references are of elite athletes but that doesn't mean that they don't ring through on the ever eroding competitive club scene.

Annie get your Run

Testosterscone wrote: »

I was not trying to make it personal thing more just using that as an example. I am the same myself I cut corners as well. My point was and i refer back to the likes of DR and KC there training is viewed by many as excessive rather than the norm which highlight's the skewed perception of hard work.

I'm not so sure about that, certainly most conversations I've heard about Krusty (he gets talked about a lot ) are about his dedication and work ethic. I've never heard anyone say it was excessive - we can see the results he gets from the work he puts in so that drives home the point hard work = results. I think most people just aren't prepared to work quite that hard or possibly they don't have the support from family to be able to put in those hours etc but yes, I'd agree on the whole we have gotten very soft (in all areas of life).

Jakey Rolling

Article on CorkRunning blog by John Walshe, on the infamous 1984 Cork City Marathon. Kiernan vs. Hooper

Out of 800 finishers, slowest was 4:02, with 149 finishing under 3 hours

Testosterscone

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that, certainly most conversations I've heard about Krusty (he gets talked about a lot ) are about his dedication and work ethic. I've never heard anyone say it was excessive - we can see the results he gets from the work he puts in so that drives home the point hard work = results. I think most people just aren't prepared to work quite that hard or possibly they don't have the support from family to be able to put in those hours etc but yes, I'd agree on the whole we have gotten very soft (in all areas of life).

Poor choice of words but you nailed the point trying to make regarding people not willing to put in the hard work anymore.

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

We had Jerry Kiernan out talking to the club a few weeks ago, he talked a bit about his training and racing. He (and Dick Hooper, and most of the people they were racing) worked full-time, but managed to fit in a huge amount of training around it. How many of today's distance runners do that? The attitude today seems to be that you can only commit to the sport if the sport also provides your livelihood, directly or indirectly. So lots of people who basically quit after college, because they don't think they can combine training with a 9-5 job.

Not so much of a problem for sprinters because they peak earlier, and sprinters don't need a strong training/competing group as much as they need facilities and coaches.

Why do you say sprinters don’t need a strong training group? That is completely false.

Testosterscone

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

Article on CorkRunning blog by John Walshe, on the infamous 1984 Cork City Marathon. Kiernan vs. Hooper

Out of 800 finishers, slowest was 4:02, with 149 finishing under 3 hours

Without even talking about standards I would look at % of people who suffer overuse injuries in a marathon build up between now and then.

Actually had a conversation with a lad over Christmas, his brother was a 2.22 man (actually knew the brother's name) back in the day. Told the coach he wanted to do the marathon and was told that he would not be allowed till he got miles into the legs so was put on a good bit of cross country and 10k training and built the mileage slowly.

Could you imagine that happening now? majority of runners would tell you to get the boat and find another coach/plan.

Chivito550

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

Article on CorkRunning blog by John Walshe, on the infamous 1984 Cork City Marathon. Kiernan vs. Hooper

Out of 800 finishers, slowest was 4:02, with 149 finishing under 3 hours

Interesting that we’ve won more major medals in 2000s than in 70s and 80s combined, and that’s excluding Euro Cross as it didn’t exist until 1994, so no point including it for comparison purposes.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Why do you say sprinters don’t need a strong training group? That is completely false.

I think it is less important for sprinters than for distance runners, while facilities and coaches are less important for distance runners than for sprinters.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

We had Jerry Kiernan out talking to the club a few weeks ago, he talked a bit about his training and racing. He (and Dick Hooper, and most of the people they were racing) worked full-time, but managed to fit in a huge amount of training around it. How many of today's distance runners do that? The attitude today seems to be that you can only commit to the sport if the sport also provides your livelihood, directly or indirectly. So lots of people who basically quit after college, because they don't think they can combine training with a 9-5 job.

Not so much of a problem for sprinters because they peak earlier, and sprinters don't need a strong training/competing group as much as they need facilities and coaches.

No offence but life has changed. It was easier to train harder back then, you didnt have the following:
- You didn't have both parents working
- Collecting kids from the creche,
- Bringing kids to sports in the evening, more sports to bring kids,
- Kids could go to sports on their own in the 80's ie cycling
- Smaller families, so more time needed to look after our parents compare to our parents families
- Alot of jobs back in the 80's were work your shift and off you go, there is no 9-5 jobs anymore

Duanington

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

Article on CorkRunning blog by John Walshe, on the infamous 1984 Cork City Marathon. Kiernan vs. Hooper

Out of 800 finishers, slowest was 4:02, with 149 finishing under 3 hours

This is great, slowing\stopping so many times and still grinding out 2.14 - they really were running right on the limit obviously

OOnegative

average_runner wrote: »

No offence but life has changed. It was easier to train harder back then, you didnt have the following:
- You didn't have both parents working
- Collecting kids from the creche,
- Bringing kids to sports in the evening, more sports to bring kids,
- Kids could go to sports on their own in the 80's ie cycling
- Smaller families, so more time needed to look after our parents compare to our parents families
- Alot of jobs back in the 80's were work your shift and off you go, there is no 9-5 jobs anymore

Another thing more common today, excuses!

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

No offence but life has changed. It was easier to train harder back then, you didnt have the following:
- You didn't have both parents working
- Collecting kids from the creche,
- Bringing kids to sports in the evening, more sports to bring kids,
- Kids could go to sports on their own in the 80's ie cycling
- Smaller families, so more time needed to look after our parents compare to our parents families

That assumes you have kids, and nearby parents you need to look after. I don't think that is true for most people immediately post-college.

(also, afaik, Krusty has kids, and his OH works, but he finds the time)

RayCun

Duanington wrote: »

This is great, slowing\stopping so many times and still grinding out 2.14 - they really were running right on the limit obviously

Have you heard about his marathon debut in Dublin in 82?

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

I think it is less important for sprinters than for distance runners, while facilities and coaches are less important for distance runners than for sprinters.

Have you ever trained as a 400m runner? It is soul destroying doing those sessions on your own. My performances dipped when my training group fell apart. Up until then I always had guys to chase. Suddenly I was on my own doing really tough sessions. I still had coaching and facilities. You can’t understand the difference unless you’ve actually done it.

Chivito550

thierry14 wrote: »

Short distance

The easiest thing to train for with modern methods

Explain.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Have you ever trained as a 400m runner? It is soul destroying doing those sessions on your own. My performances dipped when my training group fell apart. Up until then I always had guys to chase. Suddenly I was on my own doing really tough sessions. I still had coaching and facilities. You can’t understand the difference unless you’ve actually done it.

do I have to explain 'less' and 'more'?

Nermal

Is it not just the rise of gym culture? People don't want to look like elite endurance athletes anymore. Not the same for sprinters.

RayCun

Nermal wrote: »

Is it not just the rise of gym culture? People don't want to look like elite endurance athletes anymore. Not the same for sprinters.

elite endurance athletes look pretty damn fit if you meet them in person

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

do I have to explain 'less' and 'more'?

Hard to take your comments seriously about training for sprinting when you have never trained for sprinting.

Testosterscone

Nermal wrote: »

Is it not just the rise of gym culture? People don't want to look like elite endurance athletes anymore. Not the same for sprinters.

To be honest Strength and Conditioning is as much a part of distance running. Have never heard that ever cited by anyone who has ever left the sport (or indeed anyone who didn't wanna take up running)

Ironically despite the non competitive nature of many of these most actually have a better work ethic (making time for training before or after work etc)

The insta-gym crew show that commitment to training can be done even in the busy modern day lifestyle.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Hard to take your comments seriously about training for sprinting when you have never trained for sprinting.

Rank these three things in order of importance for sprinting:
Coach
Track
Training group

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

Rank these three things in order of importance for sprinting:
Coach
Track
Training group

Coach first, other 2 equal. We do a lot of training away from a track. Hills, steps, plyometrics etc.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Coach first, other 2 equal. We do a lot of training away from a track.

in the gym?

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

in the gym?

See edit above. You’re too fast with the posting.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

That assumes you have kids, and nearby parents you need to look after. I don't think that is true for most people immediately post-college.

(also, afaik, Krusty has kids, and his OH works, but he finds the time)

But didn't he start late as a runner after his kids became teenagers?

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

That assumes you have kids, and nearby parents you need to look after. I don't think that is true for most people immediately post-college.

(also, afaik, Krusty has kids, and his OH works, but he finds the time)

Anywhere in Ireland is consider nearby. For marathon runners, they don't peak till late 20's or 30's. At that stage parents become a concern for some. It's going to become a bigger concern going forward as people are having kids later, so parents will be older when kids leave college, for example I will be 65:eek:

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

Rank these three things in order of importance for sprinting:
Coach
Track
Training group

Would probably rank all 3 together in fairness. Sprinting on your own with nothing to chase!!!

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

But didn't he start late as a runner after his kids became teenagers?

average_runner wrote: »

Anywhere in Ireland is consider nearby. For marathon runners, they don't peak till late 20's or 30's. At that stage parents become a concern for some. It's going to become a bigger concern going forward as people are having kids later, so parents will be older when kids leave college, for example I will be 65:eek:

Everyone has things they could be doing instead of running. Everyone sets priorities. Some people have things in their lives that take up lots of time, and are higher priorities than running.

I find it hard to believe that days have become shorter since the 80s.

dublin runner

The 1980s vs 2018
Sprinters vs. Long Distance Runners

I am just waiting for the GAA to be thrown under the bus!

Perhaps, just perhaps, the large majority of people just don't want to become professional runners and athletes? Maybe they don't want to commit, maybe they don't think they have the talent. Maybe, just maybe, the incentives aren't there. Maybe there is very little attraction in grinding out years of training, usually getting very little media attention or financial support.

It's not rocket science why we don't have the quality of runners we had back in the 'good old days'. Another lazy article bashing modernity.