Jordan Peterson interview on C4

sbsquarepants

I'm trying, but you're not making it easy:D

At least I'm not named after a cartoon character..

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The Peterson fans are the oddest aspect of all of it..and especially the former atheists going back to mass.. pretty crazy really..

Not really.... this modern world of ours doesn't provide a lot of reliable foundations to stand upon. We've run headlong into destroying the foundations of the old without replacing them with anything except.. the illusion of freedom, and most people are aware enough to realize that it is an illusion. There's a growing apathy in young people in many nations when they realize that there's no structure to their lives except work, and rampant consumerism. Modern thought sought to tear down the spiritualism that humanity previously embraced and replaced it with sterile cold metal that doesn't care, in the slightest, for the individual. Values are being thrown aside in the name of freedom and equality, and they're not being replaced with anything positive..

And so people are starting to return to the older systems like religion because it does provide a framework of values and beliefs. I'd never do it myself, but I can understand their motivations. You gotta realise that many people are just incapable of establishing a framework of values for themselves. They've been raised in a world that hands everything to them in a pretty box with a ribbon on top. They don't want to research and struggle to find something meaningful.. they want the easy option.. and organised religion is very easy.

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really.... this modern world of ours doesn't provide a lot of reliable foundations to stand upon. We've run headlong into destroying the foundations of the old without replacing them with anything except.. the illusion of freedom, and most people are aware enough to realize that it is an illusion. There's a growing apathy in young people in many nations when they realize that there's no structure to their lives except work, and rampant consumerism. Modern thought sought to tear down the spiritualism that humanity previously embraced and replaced it with sterile cold metal that doesn't care, in the slightest, for the individual. Values are being thrown aside in the name of freedom and equality, and they're not being replaced with anything positive..

And so people are starting to return to the older systems like religion because it does provide a framework of values and beliefs. I'd never do it myself, but I can understand their motivations. You gotta realise that many people are just incapable of establishing a framework of values for themselves. They've been raised in a world that hands everything to them in a pretty box with a ribbon on top. They don't want to research and struggle to find something meaningful.. they want the easy option.. and organised religion is very easy.

Wait until the loneliness epidemic starts to bite....

We have lost the art of self awareness, self sacrafice, self discipline and delayed gratification (all central to religious beliefs)....we have coke epidemics/gambling addictions and social media anxiety everywhere at all ages in all parts of society...and we think we are progressing!!!

I'm starting to wonder!

ILoveYourVibes

Silentcorner wrote: »

Wait until the loneliness epidemic starts to bite....

Loneliness is not an epidemic its a natural human condition that you have to be strong enough to bear.

Aging is not for sissies. Because it doesn't matter how many kids you have nor how many friends you had ...you will be totally and utterly alone. And no one will want to talk to you. That is old age. And you have to be strong enough to deal with it.

That's the bear truth.

If you start seeing loneliness as something you have to avoid ...that's dangerous. Its something you have to embrace and maybe even celebrate.

The unpleasant emotional response to isolation ...is something we will all have to get through. Many of us will feel it for years in our lifetimes.

Its not just the coronavirus that will bring it about. :pac:

Its a part of life.

I've always known this. A lot of Life is isolation.

ILoveYourVibes

Eruption wrote: »

Liberals are STILL seething just because some young men see there is some value in Dr Peterson's teachings...

Absolutely. And with good reason. Not just seething. Disappointed.

What did you expect apathy? Its not a liberal trait. We are not cold and indifferent to young men unlike the Canadian is a very good salesman.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really.... this modern world of ours doesn't provide a lot of reliable foundations to stand upon. We've run headlong into destroying the foundations of the old without replacing them with anything except.. the illusion of freedom, and most people are aware enough to realize that it is an illusion. There's a growing apathy in young people in many nations when they realize that there's no structure to their lives except work, and rampant consumerism. Modern thought sought to tear down the spiritualism that humanity previously embraced and replaced it with sterile cold metal that doesn't care, in the slightest, for the individual. Values are being thrown aside in the name of freedom and equality, and they're not being replaced with anything positive..

And so people are starting to return to the older systems like religion because it does provide a framework of values and beliefs. I'd never do it myself, but I can understand their motivations. You gotta realise that many people are just incapable of establishing a framework of values for themselves. They've been raised in a world that hands everything to them in a pretty box with a ribbon on top. They don't want to research and struggle to find something meaningful.. they want the easy option.. and organised religion is very easy.

Excellent post.

We've gone quite a long way towards exalting the individual and liberty without much thought, if any given to what has been discarded. I find it mental that there are ads about loneliness in this day and age. Absolutely insane.

I'm not sure how it is in Ireland but here in the UK, there seems to be a lot less emphasis on community. Margaret Thatcher once said that there was no such thing as society. Religions, trade unions and so on might have been corrupt but they did provide a sense of purpose, something that was greater than oneself and thus something to dedicate oneself to. We've even ditched the family model for the next generation via extortionate rents so they don't even have that. Working men's clubs, youth clubs and social events outside the pub are just gone here.

The result is like some sort of videogame where you earn credits to buy stuff with but that's the apogee of what life can be about for many. It's unnatural. We're social creatures and things like loneliness are just the side effects of imposing an unnatural system on a society where it does not fit.

ILoveYourVibes

I wonder what Peterson thought of socialized healthcare ....even if he didn't use it ....he might have seen it in russia.

CtevenSrowder

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I wonder what Peterson thought of socialized healthcare ....even if he didn't use it ....he might have seen it in russia.

He supports Universal Healthcare such as that in Canada. I mean, you could've just googled this yourself. It's funny how you assume he must be against it just because he's not left-wing. You are aware he is Canadian yes?

nkl12xtw5goz70

Deleted User wrote: »

And so people are starting to return to the older systems like religion because it does provide a framework of values and beliefs. I'd never do it myself, but I can understand their motivations. You gotta realise that many people are just incapable of establishing a framework of values for themselves. They've been raised in a world that hands everything to them in a pretty box with a ribbon on top. They don't want to research and struggle to find something meaningful.. they want the easy option.. and organised religion is very easy.

I went back to religion after about 25 years as a hardcore atheist because I was getting married to a religious person. She wanted a religious wedding and wanted us to commit to raising our children as Catholics. So I went along, somewhat reluctantly at first, although I then got really interested because I was seeing it through adult eyes, rather than through the eyes of a 12-year-old making his Confirmation.

I will say this — religion is entirely different as an adult, at least if you take it seriously enough to do a lot of reading about it. It's much more than a list of "thou shalt nots," or about reeling off Hail Marys.

I'd describe religion at this point in my life as a sacramental space for encountering the infinite and figuring out one's own space within that infinite. It doesn't provide answers as much as it provides a space to ask questions. Ultimately, God is less the concrete and historicized entity of Hebraic scripture than what Heidegger might have called a poetic dwelling in Being, and all the rituals of religion are really just a gateway to that. So I don't see religion as a prefabricated solution but as more of a structured way to start the exploration.

ILoveYourVibes

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

He supports Universal Healthcare such as that in Canada. I mean, you could've just googled this yourself. It's funny how you assume he must be against it just because he's not left-wing. You are aware he is Canadian yes?

How does he support universal healthcare but oppose socialism??? You can't have universal healthcare without socialism.

yermandan

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

I went back to religion after about 25 years as a hardcore atheist because I was getting married to a religious person. She wanted a religious wedding and wanted us to commit to raising our children as Catholics. So I went along, somewhat reluctantly at first, although I then got really interested because I was seeing it through adult eyes, rather than through the eyes of a 12-year-old making his Confirmation.

I will say this — religion is entirely different as an adult, at least if you take it seriously enough to do a lot of reading about it. It's much more than a list of "thou shalt nots," or about reeling off Hail Marys.

I'd describe religion at this point in my life as a sacramental space for encountering the infinite and figuring out one's own space within that infinite. It doesn't provide answers as much as it provides a space to ask questions. Ultimately, God is less the concrete and historicized entity of Hebraic scripture than what Heidegger might have called a poetic dwelling in Being, and all the rituals of religion are really just a gateway to that. So I don't see religion as a prefabricated solution but as more of a structured way to start the exploration.

Fantastic post!

Gynoid

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

How does he support universal healthcare but oppose socialism??? You can't have universal healthcare without socialism.

What did communist countries use for light before candles?
Electricity.


Btw - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_universal_health_care

ILoveYourVibes

Gynoid wrote: »

What did communist countries use for light before candles?
Electricity.


Btw - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_universal_health_care

Universal healthcare is socialist.

Its finally happened the alt right has discovered all it wants from the right is facism and bigorty.

Is universal healthcare really socialist?..Like, if you believe in the state is healthcare not perhaps one service it should provide?..I realise it's come to be one of the divisive left right issues, but like, surely the state has to provide certain things..
I suppose historically health was provided by the church really..

Why can't you be left economically anymore without the social issues?

CtevenSrowder

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Universal healthcare is socialist.

Its finally happened the alt right has discovered all it wants from the right is facism and bigorty.

What in the name of God are you talking about? He isn't alt-right. There is more to socialism them simply Universal health care. You can be politically on the right and be in favour of Universal Health care.

Gynoid

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Universal healthcare is socialist.

Its finally happened the alt right has discovered all it wants from the right is facism and bigorty.

Did you look at the countries with health care? You have been living in a social democracy for yonks.

Begorrah-try, surely, since I'm Irish?

Ipso

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

What in the name of God are you talking about? He isn't alt-right. There is more to socialism them simply Universal health care. You can be politically on the right and be in favour of Universal Health care.

No. No. No. No
Everyone’s ideas must fit into one of two camps. No in between, ever.

CtevenSrowder

Gynoid wrote: »

Did you look at the countries with health care? You have been living in a social democracy for yonks.

Begorrah-try, surely, since I'm Irish?

One thing I've noticed about people my age, particularly those that are leftwing, is that it's always a game of all or nothing. The concept of people picking bits of ideas from across the political spectrum seems to be alien to them. So if yiu are to be left wing you Have to be pro self I'd, pro choice, pro free-frees, pro immigration etc. Any deviation and immediately you are considered to be on the right, and in some cases alt-right.

The idea of someone being politically on the right, yet still in favour of USC, is unfathomable.

CtevenSrowder

Ipso wrote: »

No. No. No. No
Everyone’s ideas must fit into one of two camps. No in between, ever.

Haha I just posted a long winded version of this. This puts it nice and concisely!

Ipso

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You can't have universal healthcare without socialism.

Hmmm. European countries aren’t socialist but have universal health coverage.
The Danish pm on Denmark (as Denmark gets trotted out as a socialist country by the likes of the Bernie cult).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist/amp

The US has a form of welfare funded health care.

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

Wait until the loneliness epidemic starts to bite....

It's already hit. Social media doesn't reduce loneliness, instead, it emphasizes it. We were all promised the illusion that technology would bring us together, but instead, it's simply pushed us all further apart. We're all aware of going to a restaraunt/bar and watching our friends pull out phones to chat online or post photos, rather than engage in conversation. Then there's the major drop in dating habits, and the realisation for many males, that marriage isn't something that they can look forward to. Loneliness is something that has hit modern societies hard... Personally, I see it whenever I return to Ireland. People are almost frantic to engage with each other. (not that Asia is any better... if anything it's worse)

We have lost the art of self awareness, self sacrafice, self discipline and delayed gratification (all central to religious beliefs)....we have coke epidemics/gambling addictions and social media anxiety everywhere at all ages in all parts of society...and we think we are progressing!!!

I'm starting to wonder!

Regressing more like. TBH it's like the fall before any empire or major civilisation. That period of debauchery, and lack of values. The fragmentation of established norms, leading to a disintegration as external forces (other nations/peoples) take advantage of our weakened state.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Loneliness is not an epidemic its a natural human condition that you have to be strong enough to bear.

Aging is not for sissies. Because it doesn't matter how many kids you have nor how many friends you had ...you will be totally and utterly alone. And no one will want to talk to you. That is old age. And you have to be strong enough to deal with it.

That's the bear truth.

No. That's depression. That's the lie that's been fed to society and one they're eating up with relish, only feeling the heartburn later.

If you start seeing loneliness as something you have to avoid ...that's dangerous. Its something you have to embrace and maybe even celebrate.

I've been lonely twice in my life. Both times, it lasted a grand total of ten minutes, and then i got on with my life.

The unpleasant emotional response to isolation ...is something we will all have to get through. Many of us will feel it for years in our lifetimes.

Its not just the coronavirus that will bring it about. :pac:

Its a part of life.

I've always known this. A lot of Life is isolation.

I find the coronavirus joke to be more than a bit ignorant/rude. There's people dying out there.

As for your life is isolation, absolute rubbish... but I'll leave you to your incredibly negative world/life view.

Still, I'll let you in on a little secret. Language structures consciousness, and your frame of reality is a choice. [nope. Not discussing it. If you get it, you get it, otherwise, you'll simply argue it, and that's utterly pointless]

Kassidy Savory Tick

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

I went back to religion after about 25 years as a hardcore atheist because I was getting married to a religious person. She wanted a religious wedding and wanted us to commit to raising our children as Catholics. So I went along, somewhat reluctantly at first, although I then got really interested because I was seeing it through adult eyes, rather than through the eyes of a 12-year-old making his Confirmation.

I will say this — religion is entirely different as an adult, at least if you take it seriously enough to do a lot of reading about it. It's much more than a list of "thou shalt nots," or about reeling off Hail Marys.

I'd describe religion at this point in my life as a sacramental space for encountering the infinite and figuring out one's own space within that infinite. It doesn't provide answers as much as it provides a space to ask questions. Ultimately, God is less the concrete and historicized entity of Hebraic scripture than what Heidegger might have called a poetic dwelling in Being, and all the rituals of religion are really just a gateway to that. So I don't see religion as a prefabricated solution but as more of a structured way to start the exploration.

I was brought up in a devout family, and i was a firm believer for a long time. Seriously considered the priesthood, and attended seminary lessons for a time. However, later I questioned, and developed my present viewpoint on religion. In that it's a human creation, and a political one at that. I respect other peoples belief in it, as the majority of my family are still very devout. For me though, while i do believe in God, I allow myself to follow my own ways of worship, through the mannerisms of my lifestyle. It works.

I can understand why people are turning back to it. I have very good memories of my time within it, and there's nothing really negative from my experiences. It's a club, and a very social club, especially once you meet up with the more modern priests. I still work with them when I return to Ireland to do community work like teaching.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Universal healthcare is socialist.

Universal healthcare (or welfare) is not socialist. It's simply a mechanism. In it's original form, it's a method to increase worker productivity, and reduce social unrest. It's only the modern concept that's gone beyond that (and shown just how dangerous it is, economically). If it was unique to socialism, then, all socialist countries would have embraced it, which they haven't, and capitalist countries would have avoided it like the plague, which they also haven't. It's just the rubbish that political parties throw around these days, like they have ownership over an idea. Which they don't.

Its finally happened the alt right has discovered all it wants from the right is facism and bigorty.

The biggest promoters for the existence of the Alt Right are those on the left who promote it as the ultimate boogeyman. For the most part, the extreme right was disappearing in western society, left behind in the most poorest of regions, and falling apart under the weight of education and logical thinking.

There was, and always will be a right... but people like yourself, cannot seem to acknowledge that the right balances the left. Instead, you feel the need to push everything even remotely "to the right of the left" as far to the right as possible. You're creating the problem you fear so much... You're giving them airtime, and feeding recruits into the far right, because you're removing a reasonable alternative to the left. You're encouraging a bitterness to develop, and that is why we're seeing such a massive rise in support or interest in far right parties. Hell, one can't even be remotely proud of their own country or culture, without being labelled a nationalist, and pushed to the right.

I find it amazing just how idiotic this desire to attribute so much power to the alt right or far right is. Why do you feel the need to push everyone who doesn't completely agree with you into a camp of extremists?

creditcarder

Deleted User wrote: »

It's already hit. Social media doesn't reduce loneliness, instead, it emphasizes it. We were all promised the illusion that technology would bring us together, but instead, it's simply pushed us all further apart. We're all aware of going to a restaraunt/bar and watching our friends pull out phones to chat online or post photos, rather than engage in conversation. Then there's the major drop in dating habits, and the realisation for many males, that marriage isn't something that they can look forward to. Loneliness is something that has hit modern societies hard... Personally, I see it whenever I return to Ireland. People are almost frantic to engage with each other. (not that Asia is any better... if anything it's worse)

I'm going to disagree with you there Klaz :P Men find it easy to marry as by the time a owman turns 30 ish she is just looking for somebody stable (barely stable) and a lot of younger girls who want to settle down early could be interested in an older guy for various reasons(few of them bad)


Tbh, you can even be flipping burgers and you can get married as long as you can do some form of your duty. Or do you mean it is not somthing that they 'should' look forward to? I would personally disagree, but I can see why some men would believe that.



As a sidenote, people need to be happier alone. I don't think humans are as social as we think. Sure, we spend all our days around each other, we party with each other, and so on and so forht, but how many friends would you give a fiver too without questions? As in, you are standing in front of the coffee machine right before you buy the coffee and you are smelling the beans, and one of your work colleagues asks you for a fiver. How many would give it without asking any questions of any kind? :P



Eh, maybe I've spent too long in ex soviet union countries.

Zubeneschamali

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

I'd describe religion at this point in my life as a sacramental space for encountering the infinite and figuring out one's own space within that infinite. It doesn't provide answers as much as it provides a space to ask questions. Ultimately, God is less the concrete and historicized entity of Hebraic scripture than what Heidegger might have called a poetic dwelling in Being, and all the rituals of religion are really just a gateway to that. So I don't see religion as a prefabricated solution but as more of a structured way to start the exploration.

So you still don't actually believe in any gods?

It's just bafflegab to placate the missus?

creditcarder

creditcarder wrote: »

I'm going to disagree with you there Klaz :P

Please do. That's what I'm here for.

Men find it easy to marry as by the time a owman turns 30 ish she is just looking for somebody stable (barely stable) and a lot of younger girls who want to settle down early could be interested in an older guy for various reasons(few of them bad)

Hold on. I didn't say it was difficult for men to get married... I said that for many men there was less appeal. Financially and legally, there is a growing perception that marriage holds no benefits for males.

Tbh, you can even be flipping burgers and you can get married as long as you can do some form of your duty. Or do you mean it is not somthing that they 'should' look forward to? I would personally disagree, but I can see why some men would believe that.

Nope. I'm hopeful that someday I'll find the right person, and I'll settle down to get married. I'm a believer. Just referring to what I've read both online and heard in my debate classes. I act as a judge for a variety of debates which include both Asian and western students.

As a sidenote, people need to be happier alone. I don't think humans are as social as we think. Sure, we spend all our days around each other, we party with each other, and so on and so forht, but how many friends would you give a fiver too without questions? As in, you are standing in front of the coffee machine right before you buy the coffee and you are smelling the beans, and one of your work colleagues asks you for a fiver. How many would give it without asking any questions of any kind? :P

Ahh well, I have no/little appreciation for the value of money.. I'm pretty much a minimalist.. and I tend to use money/loans as a way to test other people (since most other people care too much about it)

Still, in regards to being social/alone, I've experienced it throughout my life, seeking to find a balance. I've noticed that I need private time after extended periods with others. At the same time though, too much time alone makes me antsy, and distracted. I feel that a balance of the two is needed, and that would happen naturally over time as we age. Technology and the lure of city lifestyles though interrupts that development. Community is important, and yet, it's something that is mostly ignored in modern society... which is destructive since without community, people have no connection, not just with others but also with the area they live in. There's no pride in their local area without the community that comes with being social.

Eh, maybe I've spent too long in ex soviet union countries.

I understand completely... although it's worth considering that those countries tend to be more community driven. At least until people become more wealthy, and community spirit dries up.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So you still don't actually believe in any gods?

What exactly does it mean to you to "believe in God"?

It's just bafflegab to placate the missus?

Not at all. At the very least, it's been an opportunity to read lots of philosophy and theology — including Plato, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Kierkegaard, Heidegger, etc. — and talk about ideas with a willing intellectual combatant, which is fun in itself.

Zubeneschamali

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

What exactly does it mean to you to "believe in God"?

There is a spectrum of beliefs among people who call themselves Roman Catholic.

At one end are the people who believe Saint Anthony found their car keys, Saint Jude helped little Johnny pass his Junior cert, and Aunty Mary's sciatica was cured at Lourdes. When these people say the Creed, they mean it in a simple and direct way: "I believe in one God...".

At the other are people who don't actually believe in God, miracles, the afterlife or anything supernatural, but do know a lot of long words.