Let go after almost 8 years.

Mr. Rahm

Hoping someone can help me with this.

I was approached by my new manager yesterday and told I'm being let go as a restructure will mean I am no longer needed. I work in a large shed with one other person and I approached him for a warm jacket one day and he basically told me to go get my own despite numerous other employees being given one. We had a bit of a disagreement on this and I believe he's now getting rid of me to teach others a lesson as he's new. He says I'm always late and I am because I work thorough breaks on busy days and my previous boss told me if I worked through breaks or had to stay a little late some days to take the time off the following morning. Which was fine by me. But this guy does not like it. He has no idea of my working times as he's in his office on a site opposite to where I work. I only see him 2 or 3 times a week. I told him a few weeks previous that I had a interview for another job (job relating to and evening degree I'm currently doing) coming up and that I was hoping to leave at the end of January. He didn't like this either.

He told me I can see out my time until January 30th then I'm out of a job. I told him what he was doing was illegal and he said if you're threatening legal action against the company, "you can fcuk off now". I worked out my day as I wanted to say goodbye to a few colleagues. I was distraught and shocked.

I work 8-5 mon-thurs and 8-3 on Fridays. I get paid €375 (shocking wages after almost 8 years) every week but for some reason I got €360 for this week. I've no idea why. I also get a fill of diesel from my workplace every second week which is worth about €40 per week. Also, I was never given a contract of employment by this company and when I mentioned this to him yesterday he said "So what? I don't have one either".

I text him last night asking him to reconsider as I just want my job back. He never replied.

I'm scared and worried now as I've bills and college fees to pay. What next?

Atlantic Dawn

Has there been any official warning given to you previously?

milltown

Did you ever get payslips or P60s? Do you know if your PRSI was being paid?
I ask because the employer's attitude suggests that he is sure you have no rights, maybe because you were never on his books. Does this guy own the business?

At a minimum you are entitled to notice, or pay in lieu of same, and redundancy pay of 2 weeks per year of employment. If you can't sort this out with his boss or the owner then I think legal advice and probably the Workplace Relations Commission is your best bet. Hopefully once you make noises about fighting for your rights they'll come around and either reinstate you or pay you your dues. Otherwise the legal route could take a while.

Avatar MIA

Mr. Rahm wrote: »

Hoping someone can help me with this.

I was approached by my new manager yesterday and told I'm being let go as a restructure will mean I am no longer needed. I work in a large shed with one other person and I approached him for a warm jacket one day and he basically told me to go get my own despite numerous other employees being given one. We had a bit of a disagreement on this and I believe he's now getting rid of me to teach others a lesson as he's new. He says I'm always late and I am because I work thorough breaks on busy days and my previous boss told me if I worked through breaks or had to stay a little late some days to take the time off the following morning. Which was fine by me. But this guy does not like it. He has no idea of my working times as he's in his office on a site opposite to where I work. I only see him 2 or 3 times a week. I told him a few weeks previous that I had a interview for another job (job relating to and evening degree I'm currently doing) coming up and that I was hoping to leave at the end of January. He didn't like this either.

He told me I can see out my time until January 30th then I'm out of a job. I told him what he was doing was illegal and he said if you're threatening legal action against the company, "you can fcuk off now". I worked out my day as I wanted to say goodbye to a few colleagues. I was distraught and shocked.

I work 8-5 mon-thurs and 8-3 on Fridays. I get paid €375 (shocking wages after almost 8 years) every week but for some reason I got €360 for this week. I've no idea why. I also get a fill of diesel from my workplace every second week which is worth about €40 per week. Also, I was never given a contract of employment by this company and when I mentioned this to him yesterday he said "So what? I don't have one either".

I text him last night asking him to reconsider as I just want my job back. He never replied.

I'm scared and worried now as I've bills and college fees to pay. What next?

There's so much in this and no one comes out looking like Einstein here. Not sure if I'll cover all the points, but here's some.

Was there a disciplinary procedure, if not and it's not a redundancy take them to the WRC. If it was a redundancy then you are owed 17 weeks pay. Basically this manager is a clown.

There may be a customs and practice case to allow you to come in work late, but frankly you were not acting the smartest turning up late with a new manager, did you not think to run this by them? BTW, I wouldn't want you waltzing in later either.

WHY did you tell him you went for another interview - did you lose your cool with him? It's possible he may use this as you handing in your notice. No proof, but that's what he might say. Filling up with Diesel and not paying BIK unless you use it for work (but that's not what I'm getting from this) is not right either. So, your defrauding the state. Nothing major, but if you believe in karma :P

You should of course got a contract.

You should go over his head to his boss/company owner, ask for job back, get redundancy or sue for wrongful dismissal.

road_high

Straight to a solicitor. Sounds like a bunch of arseholes who think they can rail road over you and rob you of your statutory rights.
I wouldn’t normally recommend going immediately down the legal route but this sounds like one of those instances.

Toobz

You sound like a great worker OP.

Unfortunately with a new boss, the old promises are gone so showing up late was a bad habit to keep up without talking to the new manager.

Keep the head up there's loads of places that cry out for hard working people.

Good luck with whatever comes of this.

Mr. Rahm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Has there been any official warning given to you previously?

I got a final written warning last March as I was accused of stealing diesel but the changed their mind when they realised they had made a mistake. They never even apologised for this. This company treat their employees like dirt except the ones who are related to each other. There's a few people working here who are related to management.

milltown wrote: »

Did you ever get payslips or P60s? Do you know if your PRSI was being paid?
I ask because the employer's attitude suggests that he is sure you have no rights, maybe because you were never on his books. Does this guy own the business?

At a minimum you are entitled to notice, or pay in lieu of same, and redundancy pay of 2 weeks per year of employment. If you can't sort this out with his boss or the owner then I think legal advice and probably the Workplace Relations Commission is your best bet. Hopefully once you make noises about fighting for your rights they'll come around and either reinstate you or pay you your dues. Otherwise the legal route could take a while.

I get payslips every week. There's no problem that way.

He doesn't own the business. He took over from another manager in December (a relation).

NinjaTruncs

Have you actually been sacked? I'd be turning up for work on Monday, on time. If he tells you to leave get clarification on why and take it from there. If you have been sacked I'd go straight to a solicitor, sounds like you'd have a case for unfair dismissal.

Just for future reference never tell a current employer that you are looking for a new job, there is never a benefit to you in doing so and will most likely only piss of your current boss. Given you are doing a night course they would assume you are going to leave at some point.

koutoubia

Would I be wrong by saying it's got constructive dismissal written all over it? Docking wages. Been refused warm PPE. A change in established and accepted work practices even if they are unwritten.

Mr. Rahm

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

Have you actually been sacked? I'd be turning up for work on Monday, on time. If he tells you to leave get clarification on why and take it from there. If you have been sacked I'd go straight to a solicitor, sounds like you'd have a case for unfair dismissal.

Just for future reference never tell a current employer that you are looking for a new job, there is never a benefit to you in doing so and will most likely only piss of your current boss. Given you are doing a night course they would assume you are going to leave at some point.

He said go now or work until January 30th but then told me to fcuk off when I told him what he was doing was illegal.

I told my previous boss and he was fine with it. At the start he came up to me and said fair play for trying to better myself and if I needed a reference to put his name and number down but this new guy is trying to show who's boss by getting rid of me. He knows he could save €100 a week by getting someone else in as there's loads of non-nationals working here on minimum wage.

There's a was a stage here when 3 forklifts were being used but not one person on site held a forklift licence and I mentioned that staff should get training as the place was an accident waiting to happen. They've one old guy working here (another relation) and he's blind in one eye but is let drive machinery and has crashed into various things on numerous occasion. I refuse to work with this guy as I'm afraid he'll injure or kill me. They also did not like this.

They cut corners constantly and do not care for employee welfare at all.

shafty100

definitely a case of unfair dismissal , get professional advise ,looks like this clown is chancing his arm and could maybe want to bring in one of his family or friends at your expense . this behaviour has become to common in the workplace in recent years and a lot of cases is illegal so good luck with everything

koutoubia

Op.
Write everything down that has happened and date it if possible.
Turn up for on time from now and don't take any more diesel.
In other words cover your arse and let this tool walk himself into trouble.

shafty100

a one eyed forklift driver with no ticket jesus their insurer would love to hear this and so would the h.s.a , do you have a safe pass

Mr. Rahm

koutoubia wrote: »

Op.
Write everything down that has happened and date it if possible.
Turn up for on time from now and don't take any more diesel.
In other words cover your arse and let this tool walk himself into trouble.

But I can't go back, he told me to fcuk off and said if I came back to work he wouldn't be paying me. The diesel is part of my wages. They get it cheap.

shafty100 wrote: »

a one eyed forklift driver with no ticket jesus their insurer would love to hear this and so would the h.s.a , do you have a safe pass

No, I don't have a safe pass. It's a commercial farm so not sure I need one.

One employee was almost killed about 3 years ago. He was filling up a large tank and the concrete beams collapsed underneath as the tank was too heavy. He broke his arm and has never been the same since. I'm not even sure this was reported to the HSA as I believe they paid him his wages for the year he missed. All hush hush.

jimmycrackcorm

road_high wrote:

Straight to a solicitor. Sounds like a bunch of arseholes who think they can rail road over you and rob you of your statutory rights. I wouldn’t normally recommend going immediately down the legal route but this sounds like one of those instances.

There is no point in going to the solicitor before being let go. Op you should go above the manager to the directors to let them know that the manager is getting to force you out illegally. A WC car would be a straight win, and your new manager sounds like he has no experience if he doesnt know the procedures that need to be followed.

Is be careful about taking the diesel fills off you don't have any way to prove that it is practice and approved. Can your previous manager back you up about that?

Mr. Rahm wrote:

One employee was almost killed about 3 years ago. He was filling up a large tank and the concrete beams collapsed underneath as the tank was too heavy. He broke his arm and has never been the same since. I'm not even sure this was reported to the HSA as I believe they paid him his wages for the year he missed. All hush hush.

If be reporting that to the HSA. It sounds like it's an unsafe operation with more potential life endangering accidents waiting to happen.

dreamers75

Think of it as an investment, you will get about 9k in 18 months time.

On Monday talk to a solicitor.

Mr. Rahm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

There is no point in going to the solicitor before being let go. Op you should go above the manager to the directors to let them know that the manager is getting to force you out illegally. A WC car would be a straight win, and your new manager sounds like he has no experience if he doesnt know the procedures that need to be followed.

Is be careful about taking the diesel fills off you don't have any way to prove that it is practice and approved. Can your previous manager back you up about that?




If be reporting that to the HSA. It sounds like it's an unsafe operation with more potential life endangering accidents waiting to happen.

The old manager and new manager are related so I doubt it. 6 or 7 people get the diesel fills and there's a tank there with a dial on it so I'd say it'd be easy to prove. I asked for more money about two years ago and the diesel was given to me instead of a wage increase. Saves them money.

Stheno

What else had happened that you ended up with a final warning?

It doesn't sound like you've a stellar record here to be honest

Mr. Rahm

dreamers75 wrote: »

Think of it as an investment, you will get about 9k in 18 months time.

On Monday talk to a solicitor.

I'd rather my job back as I need the money. It wouldn't be too bad because I don't see my manager very often. I also want to leave on my own terms and with a reference. (probably ask a supervisor for one).

Mr. Rahm

Stheno wrote: »

What else had happened that you ended up with a final warning?

It doesn't sound like you've a stellar record here to be honest

Verbal warnings for leaving early. I came in one day dying with a cold and left 30 minutes early to get to the chemist before it shut. And he warned me for it. Apart for a bout of glandular fever in 2016, I've never missed a day.

I came in on days off on a few occasions and they never paid me for some of them despite me constantly reminding them.

kirving

Go to work on Monday. Being told to F off is NOT the same as being told that you're fired. Subtle but key difference.

koutoubia

Being told to Fook Off is not an official way to be sacked.
Take it easy tonight and take stock tomorrow.
Put everything you said here and anything else in writing with dates.
Go into work on Monday as normal and if he tells you to Fook off ask why and then ask for it in writing.
Then get up to the dole office and then get in touch with a solicitor the same day.

sdanseo

Sounds like you're better off without this absolute joke of an employer.

Too much of this sort of behaviour in some industries, a lot of people running small businesses with half a notion of how their staff are protected and unfortunately a lot of employees who don't realise either.

But I would turn up on Monday and if they are firing you insist on it in writing.

After that straight to a solicitor and start looking for a new job. Both you and employer will get what's owed to them, let the legal experts guide you as to how.

Alkers

Go back to work Monday.
You need to find out if you're being made redundant (as suggested by the restructuring comment), in which case you're entitled to a minimum of two weeks pay per year you've worked there. If you're not being made redundant and you're being fired, you should look at bringing a case for unfair dismissal.

CeilingFly

Back in on Monday.

If anything is said, ask if you are being sacked.

Ask for it im writing.

Meet with a solicitor - they usually give initial consultation free.

I assume you are some form of labourer - sign onto an agency and you'll be back with a better job and more pay in a week.

I presume they are paying you redundancy - 8 years = at least 16 weeks pay. If they refuse, you simply fill out an rf50 form and send it via the wrc.

Tenigate

Secretly record the conversation on your phone.

amcalester

Tenigate wrote: »

Secretly record the conversation on your phone.

And before anyone says that’s illegal.

It isn’t illegal to record yourself having a conversation with someone else even if they aren’t aware of the recording.

judeboy101

amcalester wrote: »

Tenigate wrote: »

Secretly record the conversation on your phone.

And before anyone says that’s illegal.

It isn’t illegal to record yourself having a conversation with someone else even if they aren’t aware of the recording.

The gerry mccabe maneuver

amcalester

sugarman wrote: »

On another note, is that before or after Tax?

Minimum wage is €9.55 p/h since the first of January this year. Working 43 hour weeks means youre roughly on €8.70 p/h which would have met minimum requirements of €8.65 8 years ago when you first started your job but you would have been due rises year on year since 2015.

9.86 per hour if you deduct 1 hour for breaks per day.

Avatar MIA

Mr. Rahm wrote: »

No, I don't have a safe pass. It's a commercial farm so not sure I need one.

They get cheap diesel you say, and you take some as wages. Hmmm what colour is the diesel?

kurtainsider

Tenigate wrote: »

Secretly record the conversation on your phone.

100% definitely record the meeting. Practice today to make sure that you'll get a decent recording in your shirt pocket or in your hand - wherever you can put the phone without drawing attention to it. Don't fiddle with it or look at it - get all that out of the way beforehand.
Don't tell him that you're recording - even after the meeting. Put it away and produce it only after this tool of a boss has gone on record with what will be presumably a dishonest account of what was said.

Rehearse your questions and what you're going to say in the meeting and DO NOT GO OFF SCRIPT any more than you can avoid.

AndrewJRenko

I'm pretty sure there is an obligation on the employer to provide warm clothing under H&S legislation. I can't find anything with a quick search on HSA.ie but it might be worth contacting them to confirm this.

The diesel fill issue raises tax and BIK issues for the employer and possibly even for yourself. If things get rough, you might be able to use this in negotiations. It would cost them if Revenue cracked down over these under the counter payments to employees for an extended period.

Avatar MIA

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The diesel fill issue raises tax and BIK issues for the employer and possibly even for yourself. If things get rough, you might be able to use this in negotiations. It would cost them if Revenue cracked down over these under the counter payments to employees for an extended period.

Almost certainly would accuse the OP of stealing so wouldn't go down that road.

AndrewJRenko

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Almost certainly would accuse the OP of stealing so wouldn't go down that road.

Is he going to accuse all the other employees who get the diesel of stealing too?

kurtainsider

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Almost certainly would accuse the OP of stealing so wouldn't go down that road.

Not necessarily. Any mediator would form a view on which party in the dispute is the more believable. If the OP sticks to the truth it sounds like they have a cast iron case which they should pursue.

Avatar MIA

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is he going to accuse all the other employees who get the diesel of stealing too?

Who's going to admit that, the other employees (unlikely) or take the word of a disgruntled employee with a disciplinary record against them for taking possibly Green Diesel.

upandcumming

amcalester wrote:

It isn’t illegal to record yourself having a conversation with someone else even if they aren’t aware of the recording.

I don't think that flies in an employment environment.

Avatar MIA

kurtainsider wrote: »

Any mediator would form a view on which party in the dispute is the more believable.

There's paperwork of the employee being disciplined for taking diesel.

AndrewJRenko

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Who's going to admit that, the other employees (unlikely) or take the word of a disgruntled employee with a disciplinary record against them for taking possibly Green Diesel.

It wouldn't be a huge job for Revenue to reconcile the 'official' diesel used against the quantities of diesel bought, and put the obligation on the business to explain the difference.

Avatar MIA

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It wouldn't be a huge job for Revenue to reconcile the 'official' diesel used against the quantities of diesel bought, and put the obligation on the business to explain the difference.

It depends on the quantities used legitimately and otherwise. It could be a huge job to prove.

AndrewJRenko

Avatar MIA wrote: »

It depends on the quantities used legitimately and otherwise. It could be a huge job to prove.

That's the joy of Revenue. They don't have to prove it. The business has to prove it.

kurtainsider

Avatar MIA wrote: »

There's paperwork of the employee being disciplined for taking diesel.

Perhaps. Paper has never been know to refuse ink. Again - a moderator would make their decision having heard both sides. It seems like a fairly simple job to show that this employer is an underhanded cowboy. Their disciplinary procedures would then be viewed in this context.

The decision would be to decide whether or not this employee took the diesel without permission (stole it) every second week and, following a disciplinary procedure for this theft continued to steal it every second week with no further action being taken. I can't see a bit of paperwork trumping this in fairness.

Anyway - that's only one small side issue in a bigger picture.

Avatar MIA

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's the joy of Revenue. They don't have to prove it. The business has to prove it.

And the employer may say 'It looks like the others may have been stealing it, and we'll need to take more care' Revenue will likely note it and take no other action.

In the context of this thread it doesn't seem like a clever thing for the employee to do seeing he seems to have them over a barrel on other issues of due process.

He has less than 8 years of service, so looks like he's entitled to 15 weeks salary at least and possible more under unfair dismissal. I'd not muddy the water by blackmailing them.

Avatar MIA

kurtainsider wrote: »

Anyway - that's only one small side issue in a bigger picture.

Agreed - go down the blackmail route and it could go pear shaped.

AndrewJRenko

Avatar MIA wrote: »

And the employer may say 'It looks like the others may have been stealing it, and we'll need to take more care' Revenue will likely note it and take no other action.

In the context of this thread it doesn't seem like a clever thing for the employee to do seeing he seems to have them over a barrel on other issues of due process.

He has less than 8 years of service, so looks like he's entitled to 15 weeks salary at least and possible more under unfair dismissal. I'd not muddy the water by blackmailing them.

How hard is it going to be to find one current or past employee who will back up the 'under the counter diesel for wages' story?

But in general, I don't disagree with you - which is why I prefaced it with 'if things get rough'.

kurtainsider

Anyhow:

What does the OP need to bring away from the meeting on their mobile phone recording?

"You're not fired - you're redundant"

"You're not redundant - you're fired"

"What the f*** are you doing here?"

What statement will hang this flute most and result in the best outcome for the OP? What questions should the OP ask? What shouldn't he ask?

I don't know much about these issues but I'm sure that the OP could use some sound advice in advance of what may be a painful encounter.

lightspeed

if your planning on leaving for another job related to your degree, would be happy about this outcome?

You can easily take a case for unfair dismissal by the sounds of it which I understand the awards can be up to 2 times your yearly salary.

If it was me id be delighted and heading straight to a solicitor or just talk to some at workplace relations committee to get the ball rolling on making the claim.

Your employer has not even given you a contract of employment. When he said if you are threatening legal action against the company you can leave now, I would have put it in an email that i am doing just that and cc myself in it for my own records.


You live in a country with powerful employment rights that allow employees to easily sue for unfair dismissal amongst other things. Why would you not be taking legal action? How is your employer that tick?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/labour_relations_commission.html

You mentioned that you are being let go due to restructuring. There is an onus on your employer to prove some restructuring does take place and is not just pulling that out of the air to get rid of you.

With regard to worrying about affording college in the short term, id recommend calling SUSI who deal with tuition grants as i they may be able to help out.

Mr. Rahm

The diesel is not green. They also gave me €250 in cash at Christmas which I think is avoiding tax?

I asked him numerous times on Friday was he sacking me but he would not say sack, he said "we're letting you go". He was very careful about that.

Another colleague has told me he is taking over my job on Monday.

Avatar MIA

kurtainsider wrote: »

Anyhow:

What does the OP need to bring away from the meeting on their mobile phone recording?

"You're not fired - you're redundant"

"You're not redundant - you're fired"

"What the f*** are you doing here?"

What statement will hang this flute most and result in the best outcome for the OP? What questions should the OP ask? What shouldn't he ask?

I don't know much about these issues but I'm sure that the OP could use some sound advice in advance of what may be a painful encounter.

If it were me I'd keep it simple. I'd turn up for work tomorrow. If told by El Supdido that I'm fired I'd ask for it in writing. If told again to FO, I'd go to the next manager level up and repeat - possibly up to the owner. If STILL the same I'd pay a visit to the solicitor.

The point being if I turn up for work and not given a termination letter then the clock is still ticking on my employment and will get paid (eventually), even if that time is spent sitting waiting in a solicitor's office.

Avatar MIA

Mr. Rahm wrote: »

The diesel is not green. They also gave me €250 in cash at Christmas which I think is avoiding tax?

I asked him numerous times on Friday was he sacking me but he would not say sack, he said "we're letting you go". He was very careful about that.

Another colleague has told me he is taking over my job on Monday.

In that case go to someone more senior. And then go to a solicitor. You're dealing with fools, and your solicitor will tear them a new entrance, so to speak. But, definitely go to higher up first, or you'll lessen your case or strengthen it more by doing so.

Mr. Rahm

lightspeed wrote: »

if your planning on leaving for another job related to your degree, would be happy about this outcome?

You can easily take a case for unfair dismissal by the sounds of it which I understand the awards can be up to 2 times your yearly salary.

If it was me id be delighted and heading straight to a solicitor or just talk to some at workplace relations committee to get the ball rolling on making the claim.

Your employer has not even given you a contract of employment. When he said if you are threatening legal action against the company you can leave now, I would have put it in an email that i am doing just that and cc myself in it for my own records.


You live in a country with powerful employment rights that allow employees to easily sue for unfair dismissal amongst other things. Why would you not be taking legal action? How is your employer that tick?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/labour_relations_commission.html

You mentioned that you are being let go due to restructuring. There is an onus on your employer to prove some restructuring does take place and is not just pulling that out of the air to get rid of you.

With regard to worrying about affording college in the short term, id recommend calling SUSI who deal with tuition grants as i they may be able to help out.

I want to keep this job until I have another job secured. Money is tight. The restructuring is BS, there's plenty of work for me there, but they can easily get another person to do it for minimum wage or even free as they take on a lot of students doing work experience throughout the year.

If I go in tomorrow and leave on the 30th of January it might look like I left of my own accord. They told me they won't be paying me after this date.