Stopped at a checkpoint, car taken due to no insurance for no tax!

MortGoldman

Hi guys

I've been stopped at a checkpoint today, and the car was taken on me. I was driving it on third party extension due to my own car dying in the cold weather a few days ago. Car is registered to my girlfriend. The tax is out, and it's NCTed until end of February.

The guards took the car due to Aviva telling them that I'm not covered due to my tax being out. This is despite it not saying anything on my documentation about the car having to be taxed. What are my options here? In my opinion, I was doing everything right.

demanufactured

MortGoldman wrote: »

Hi guys

I've been stopped at a checkpoint today, and the car was taken on me. I was driving it on third party extension due to my own car dying in the cold weather a few days ago. Car is registered to my girlfriend. The tax is out, and it's NCTed until end of February.

The guards took the car due to Aviva telling them that I'm not covered due to my tax being out. This is despite it not saying anything on my documentation about the car having to be taxed. What are my options here? In my opinion, I was doing everything right.

A load of BULL.
your tax being out does not mean your not insured

MortGoldman

demanufactured wrote: »

A load of BULL.
your tax being out does not mean your not insured

That's what I thought as well, but how exactly do I set about sorting this? Do I go to the Ombudsman?

MortGoldman

MortGoldman wrote: »

Hi guys
The tax is out, and it's NCTed until end of February. In my opinion, I was doing everything right.

How long is the tax out?

Dakota Dan

demanufactured wrote: »

A load of BULL.
your tax being out does not mean your not insured

But they can still take the car for having no tax.

MortGoldman

BrownFinger wrote: »

How long is the tax out?

Since last summer. I know I know, but I was willing to take the chance on fines/impoundment for no tax while my own car is getting sorted...but not for no insurance! Aviva don't say anything in the documentation about it having to be taxed in order for the third party extension to be valid.

Dakota Dan

MortGoldman wrote: »

Hi guys

I've been stopped at a checkpoint today, and the car was taken on me. I was driving it on third party extension due to my own car dying in the cold weather a few days ago. Car is registered to my girlfriend. The tax is out, and it's NCTed until end of February.

The guards took the car due to Aviva telling them that I'm not covered due to my tax being out. This is despite it not saying anything on my documentation about the car having to be taxed. What are my options here? In my opinion, I was doing everything right.

apart from driving a car without tax.

beechwood55

Was the car insured under its own policy?
And if the tax has been out for more than 2 months then they have the power to seize it.

goochy

the fact your tax is out so much is likely reason - don't think you have a leg to stand on.

There ya go
simple answer

bear1

So the car hasn't had tax for half a year, the police would have taken the car regardless so what difference does it make to you?
You say yourself that you knew the car would be taken if caught so I'm a little lost.
Did they tell you that you'll be summoned to court now?

demanufactured

MortGoldman wrote: »

Since last summer. I know I know, but I was willing to take the chance on fines/impoundment for no tax while my own car is getting sorted...but not for no insurance! Aviva don't say anything in the documentation about it having to be taxed in order for the third party extension to be valid.

OK so there's your problem

dieselbug

I think the insurance require the car to be "road legal" so that would cover a multitude of possibilities I would think.

MortGoldman

Dakota Dan wrote: »

apart from driving a car without tax.

I'm not worried about motor tax. I was driving an NCT'ed and what I thought was an insured car. Being bould with tax isn't going to hurt anyone or get me disqualified.

beechwood55 wrote: »

Was the car insured under its own policy?

Nope, didn't need to be.

flc37ie6ojwkh8

What kind of fines should you expect?

beechwood55

MortGoldman wrote: »

I'm not worried about motor tax. I was driving an NCT'ed and what I thought was an insured car. Being bould with tax isn't going to hurt anyone or get me disqualified.



Nope, didn't need to be.

There is your problem right there. Aviva make it a condition of their insurance that third party extension is only covered if the other car has its own insurance policy.
So now you will be prosecuted for driving without tax and insurance.

We are with Aviva and I asked this exact question at renewal last June.

LollipopJimmy

beechwood55 wrote: »

Was the car insured under its own policy?

Doesn't need to be with a lot of policies now. It certainly used to be the case, I seen a Guard dragged across the coals by a judge over this. The car needing to be in a 'roadworthy' condition is usually the only stipulation now. And roadworthy does not mean have a valid NCT

As for the OP, check the policy document and see what it stipulates

MortGoldman

beechwood55 wrote: »

There is your problem right there. Aviva make it a condition of their insurance that third party extension is only covered if the other car has its own insurance policy.
So now you will be prosecuted for driving without tax and insurance.

According to the conversation between myself, the guard and Aviva, the insurance status of the vehicle doesn't matter. It is solely due to the tax being out that they say I am not covered.

beechwood55

Have a read of this
http://www.aviva.ie/media-library/MotorCare-Policy-Booklet.pdf

Go to page 19, Section D - Driving other cars, clause no 4.

dieselbug

And the owner is likely to be prosecuted for allowing the car to be used without tax (unless she says you stole it )

MortGoldman

beechwood55 wrote: »

Have a read of this
http://www.aviva.ie/media-library/MotorCare-Policy-Booklet.pdf

Go to page 19, Section D - Driving other cars, clause no 4.

My policy doesn't have that clause in it. I specifically checked when I renewed last summer, due to this car being sporadically used as a spare.

alexlyons

see here, must be insured on its own policy also. Page 17 point

http://www.aviva.ie/media-library/MotorCare-Policy-Booklet.pdf

alexlyons

MortGoldman wrote: »

My policy doesn't have that clause in it. I specifically checked when I renewed last summer, due to this car being sporadically used as a spare.

It is in the standard policy document available to all even before you take out a policy. When you sign up you only get a schedule of insurance

MortGoldman

alexlyons wrote: »

It is in the standard policy document available to all even before you take out a policy. When you sign up you only get a schedule of insurance

I'll have to check it when I get home so! I don't have any defense if that's the case.

bear1

MortGoldman wrote: »

My policy doesn't have that clause in it. I specifically checked when I renewed last summer, due to this car being sporadically used as a spare.

Who is your actual insurer for the car that is being repaired?

CiniO

I'm affraid it looks like OP might get summons for driving with no insurance and tax, and his girlfriend might get summonsed for allowing someone to use her car untaxed and uninsured.

Unless OP's policy was issued before Aviva included that condition mentioned above, but I doubt it, as I remember we intentionally changed insurer for my wife's car from aviva to different one, and one of the main reasons was fact that they wouldn't cover driving other cars when other car didn't have its own policy. That was a year ago, so the condition was there already then.

MortGoldman

bear1 wrote: »

Who is your actual insurer for the car that is being repaired?

Aviva. Really wish I had my documentation here with me, my stomach is a pit of nerves right now. I thought I had everything fine in terms of insurance.

CiniO

MortGoldman wrote: »

Aviva. Really wish I had my documentation here with me, my stomach is a pit of nerves right now. I thought I had everything fine in terms of insurance.

Did you buy your policy through a broker or directly from Aviva?

jimd2

Which car did not have the tax up to date, your own car that had the insurance or your girlfriend's car that you were driving?

jimd2

CiniO wrote: »

I'm affraid it looks like OP might get summons for driving with no insurance and tax, and his girlfriend might get summonsed for allowing someone to use her car untaxed and uninsured.

Unless OP's policy was issued before Aviva included that condition mentioned above, but I doubt it, as I remember we intentionally changed insurer for my wife's car from aviva to different one, and one of the main reasons was fact that they wouldn't cover driving other cars when other car didn't have its own policy. That was a year ago, so the condition was there already then.

I think this is true, I came across that before.

MortGoldman

CiniO wrote: »

Did you buy your policy through a broker or directly from Aviva?

Directly. Been with them a few years, and just renewed each year.

jimd2 wrote: »

Which car did not have the tax up to date, your own car that had the insurance or your girlfriend's car that you were driving?

The one I was driving. This is what is worrying. If they don't cover an untaxed car on their third party extension and don't say that on their documentation, do they try withdrawing cover for the same reason when my tax is out on my normal car?

CiniO

MortGoldman wrote: »

Directly. Been with them a few years, and just renewed each year.

I'm affraid then it means bad news.
Have a look at their policy booklet on their website.
Part of it was quoted before up here.

The one I was driving. This is what is worrying. If they don't cover an untaxed car on their third party extension and don't say that on their documentation, do they try withdrawing cover for the same reason when my tax is out on my normal car?

It's not a tax which is a problem. Insurer have no legal grounds to refuse cover based on fact that car was untaxed.
But their policy document explicitly excludes "driving other cars" cover, if other car doesn't have its own policy.


I wish you good luck. Hope it ends best for you.
Insurance law and regulations make it very difficult to stay all legal, and allow to be caught in situations like that very easily. It's a joke of a system when it comes to car insurance in Ireland.\

MortGoldman

CiniO wrote: »

I'm affraid then it means bad news.
Have a look at their policy booklet on their website.
Part of it was quoted before up here.




It's not a tax which is a problem. Insurer have no legal grounds to refuse cover based on fact that car was untaxed.
But their policy document explicitly excludes "driving other cars" cover, if other car doesn't have its own policy.


I wish you good luck. Hope it ends best for you.
Insurance law and regulations make it very difficult to stay all legal, and allow to be caught in situations like that very easily. It's a joke of a system when it comes to car insurance in Ireland.\

OK, let's assume that my policy doesn't have that clause on it (My certainty that it doesn't is diminishing by the minute). There is nothing on there to say that the car has to be taxed. They can't say the car wasn't roadworthy as it has a valid NCT. If my policy doesn't specify the car has to be insured separately, then I am obeying all their rules, aren't I?

conor2469

CiniO wrote: »

It's not a tax which is a problem. Insurer have no legal grounds to refuse cover based on fact that car was untaxed.
But their policy document explicitly excludes "driving other cars" cover, if other car doesn't have its own policy.

But according to the OP, the Gardai and Insurers aren't taking issue with the lack of insurance due to no main policy on the driven vehicle, they are focusing entirely on the lack of tax?

MortGoldman wrote: »

According to the conversation between myself, the guard and Aviva, the insurance status of the vehicle doesn't matter. It is solely due to the tax being out that they say I am not covered.

MortGoldman

conor2469 wrote: »

But according to the OP, the Gardai and Insurers aren't taking issue with the lack of insurance due to no main policy on the driven vehicle, they are focusing entirely on the lack of tax?

This is correct. The guard actually sympathised with me, and said that he understood the frustation as I appeared to be within Aviva's rules - apart from the lack of tax on the car.

CiniO

MortGoldman wrote: »

OK, let's assume that my policy doesn't have that clause on it (My certainty that it doesn't is diminishing by the minute). There is nothing on there to say that the car has to be taxed. They can't say the car wasn't roadworthy as it has a valid NCT. If my policy doesn't specify the car has to be insured separately, then I am obeying all their rules, aren't I?

I'd say so. Obviously except from driving untaxed as you can still be done for it.
But insurancewise it all should be clear based on your assumptions.

CiniO

conor2469 wrote: »

But according to the OP, the Gardai and Insurers aren't taking issue with the lack of insurance due to no main policy on the driven vehicle, they are focusing entirely on the lack of tax?

There's absolutely nothing in avivas policy document about requiring car to be taxed.

_Brian

MortGoldman wrote: »

Hi guys

I've been stopped at a checkpoint today, and the car was taken on me. I was driving it on third party extension due to my own car dying in the cold weather a few days ago. Car is registered to my girlfriend. The tax is out, and it's NCTed until end of February.

The guards took the car due to Aviva telling them that I'm not covered due to my tax being out. This is despite it not saying anything on my documentation about the car having to be taxed. What are my options here? In my opinion, I was doing everything right.

Everything except the motor tax that the rest of us scrimp and save to pay because it’s the law.

Your options are pay up the arrears and get the car back.

Will you be charged for driving with no insurance ??

beechwood55

Have you been asked to produce documents at the Garda station?

riemann

beechwood55 wrote: »

third party extension is only covered if the other car has its own insurance policy.

That is the exact same rule applied by every other insurer I know of.

MortGoldman

beechwood55 wrote: »

Have you been asked to produce documents at the Garda station?

Yes. Actually, if I pay the tax on it right now, would that then mean I was insured according to their rules?

Alan_007_

riemann wrote: »

That is the exact same rule applied by every other insurer I know of.

In my experience it's the exception for the other car to need insurance in it's own right.

Liberty definitely don't require it.

MortGoldman

Alan_007_ wrote: »

In my experience it's the exception for the other car to need insurance in it's own right.

Liberty definitely don't require it.

Same. I've never actually encountered a third party extension that requires a car to be insured by itself before. Sure there would hardly be a point to it if that was the case.

Seve OB

MortGoldman wrote: »

This is correct. The guard actually sympathised with me, and said that he understood the frustation as I appeared to be within Aviva's rules - apart from the lack of tax on the car.

its possible the guard just said tax but meant insurance.

i was with hibernian/aviva for donkeys. they always had the policy that to drive other cars the other car had to be insured. i actually thought it applies to all companies.

think about it.

get a quote for a seriously nice powerful Lambo. insurance cost is ridiculous, even for the basic third party. so go and get cheap insurance on a different car, so now you can drive the Lambo! doesn't make sense does it?

Alun

MortGoldman wrote: »

Same. I've never actually encountered a third party extension that requires a car to be insured by itself before. Sure there would hardly be a point to it if that was the case.

On the other hand, if the other car doesn't need to be insured, what's to stop someone buying and insuring a small, cheap runabout, but also have a fleet of uninsured high performance supercars belonging to their spouse, and merrily driving them around instead of the runabout? That doesn't make much sense to me either.

MortGoldman

Seve OB wrote: »

its possible the guard just said tax but meant insurance.

i was with hibernian/aviva for donkeys. they always had the policy that to drive other cars the other car had to be insured. i actually thought it applies to all companies.

think about it.

get a quote for a seriously nice powerful Lambo. insurance cost is ridiculous, even for the basic third party. so go and get cheap insurance on a different car, so now you can drive the Lambo! doesn't make sense does it?

Nope, specifically meant tax. We had Aviva on speakerphone and I heard the conversation. THe guy at the end of the phone said I was covered, as long as the car had valid NCT & tax. I had the NCT, but no tax.

TheChizler

Alun wrote: »

On the other hand, if the other car doesn't need to be insured, what's to stop someone buying and insuring a small, cheap runabout, but also have a fleet of uninsured high performance supercars belonging to their spouse, and merrily driving them around instead of the runabout? That doesn't make much sense to me either.

Nearly all if not all will exclude vehicles owned by a spouse, or a car you regularly drive.

bear1

MortGoldman wrote: »

Yes. Actually, if I pay the tax on it right now, would that then mean I was insured according to their rules?

No cause the event has already happened and so it will documented as driving without valid insurance.
Personally I think you need to get some legal advice as this will bite you hard.

CiniO

riemann wrote: »

That is the exact same rule applied by every other insurer I know of.

Not true.
Aviva seems to be the only one on Irish market making such requirement.
I haven't heard of any other insurer doing it.

Seve OB wrote: »

its possible the guard just said tax but meant insurance.

Everything is possible.

i was with hibernian/aviva for donkeys. they always had the policy that to drive other cars the other car had to be insured. i actually thought it applies to all companies.

No, Aviva only introrduced that requirement over a year ago as far as I remember.
We were insured with them since 2007, and never before they had this requirement.

think about it.

get a quote for a seriously nice powerful Lambo. insurance cost is ridiculous, even for the basic third party. so go and get cheap insurance on a different car, so now you can drive the Lambo! doesn't make sense does it?

Why not...

beechwood55

What do you have to bring to the garda station? Is it insurance documents for both cars or just for your own car?

john kinsella

OP, pay tax on it now and see what happens.

As the above posters have mentioned Aviva specifically state the car needs to be insured in it's own right. This is without question so you were technically not insured. There is no mention of Tax on their booklet whatsoever so I think between the Garda and Aviva there has been a bit of a miscommunication. The car does not have to be taxed to be insured.

If the Garda believes (incorrectly) the only reason you weren't insured is because of the tax I would be down to the station immediately with proof of tax on the car. They may well be lenient on you.