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Stopped at a checkpoint, car taken due to no insurance for no tax!

  • 18-01-2018 1:46pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭


    Hi guys

    I've been stopped at a checkpoint today, and the car was taken on me. I was driving it on third party extension due to my own car dying in the cold weather a few days ago. Car is registered to my girlfriend. The tax is out, and it's NCTed until end of February.

    The guards took the car due to Aviva telling them that I'm not covered due to my tax being out. This is despite it not saying anything on my documentation about the car having to be taxed. What are my options here? In my opinion, I was doing everything right.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    Hi guys

    I've been stopped at a checkpoint today, and the car was taken on me. I was driving it on third party extension due to my own car dying in the cold weather a few days ago. Car is registered to my girlfriend. The tax is out, and it's NCTed until end of February.

    The guards took the car due to Aviva telling them that I'm not covered due to my tax being out. This is despite it not saying anything on my documentation about the car having to be taxed. What are my options here? In my opinion, I was doing everything right.

    A load of BULL.
    your tax being out does not mean your not insured


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    A load of BULL.
    your tax being out does not mean your not insured

    That's what I thought as well, but how exactly do I set about sorting this? Do I go to the Ombudsman?


  • Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hi guys
    The tax is out, and it's NCTed until end of February. In my opinion, I was doing everything right.

    How long is the tax out?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,778 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    A load of BULL.
    your tax being out does not mean your not insured

    But they can still take the car for having no tax.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    How long is the tax out?

    Since last summer. I know I know, but I was willing to take the chance on fines/impoundment for no tax while my own car is getting sorted...but not for no insurance! Aviva don't say anything in the documentation about it having to be taxed in order for the third party extension to be valid.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,778 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    Hi guys

    I've been stopped at a checkpoint today, and the car was taken on me. I was driving it on third party extension due to my own car dying in the cold weather a few days ago. Car is registered to my girlfriend. The tax is out, and it's NCTed until end of February.

    The guards took the car due to Aviva telling them that I'm not covered due to my tax being out. This is despite it not saying anything on my documentation about the car having to be taxed. What are my options here? In my opinion, I was doing everything right.

    apart from driving a car without tax.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭beechwood55


    Was the car insured under its own policy?
    And if the tax has been out for more than 2 months then they have the power to seize it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,923 ✭✭✭goochy


    the fact your tax is out so much is likely reason - don't think you have a leg to stand on.


  • Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There ya go
    simple answer


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,886 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    So the car hasn't had tax for half a year, the police would have taken the car regardless so what difference does it make to you?
    You say yourself that you knew the car would be taken if caught so I'm a little lost.
    Did they tell you that you'll be summoned to court now?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    Since last summer. I know I know, but I was willing to take the chance on fines/impoundment for no tax while my own car is getting sorted...but not for no insurance! Aviva don't say anything in the documentation about it having to be taxed in order for the third party extension to be valid.

    OK so there's your problem


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭dieselbug


    I think the insurance require the car to be "road legal" so that would cover a multitude of possibilities I would think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    Dakota Dan wrote: »
    apart from driving a car without tax.

    I'm not worried about motor tax. I was driving an NCT'ed and what I thought was an insured car. Being bould with tax isn't going to hurt anyone or get me disqualified.
    Was the car insured under its own policy?

    Nope, didn't need to be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭flc37ie6ojwkh8


    What kind of fines should you expect?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭beechwood55


    I'm not worried about motor tax. I was driving an NCT'ed and what I thought was an insured car. Being bould with tax isn't going to hurt anyone or get me disqualified.



    Nope, didn't need to be.

    There is your problem right there. Aviva make it a condition of their insurance that third party extension is only covered if the other car has its own insurance policy.
    So now you will be prosecuted for driving without tax and insurance.

    We are with Aviva and I asked this exact question at renewal last June.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,233 ✭✭✭LollipopJimmy


    Was the car insured under its own policy?

    Doesn't need to be with a lot of policies now. It certainly used to be the case, I seen a Guard dragged across the coals by a judge over this. The car needing to be in a 'roadworthy' condition is usually the only stipulation now. And roadworthy does not mean have a valid NCT

    As for the OP, check the policy document and see what it stipulates


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    There is your problem right there. Aviva make it a condition of their insurance that third party extension is only covered if the other car has its own insurance policy.
    So now you will be prosecuted for driving without tax and insurance.

    According to the conversation between myself, the guard and Aviva, the insurance status of the vehicle doesn't matter. It is solely due to the tax being out that they say I am not covered.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭beechwood55


    Have a read of this
    http://www.aviva.ie/media-library/MotorCare-Policy-Booklet.pdf

    Go to page 19, Section D - Driving other cars, clause no 4.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭dieselbug


    And the owner is likely to be prosecuted for allowing the car to be used without tax (unless she says you stole it :))


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    Have a read of this
    http://www.aviva.ie/media-library/MotorCare-Policy-Booklet.pdf

    Go to page 19, Section D - Driving other cars, clause no 4.

    My policy doesn't have that clause in it. I specifically checked when I renewed last summer, due to this car being sporadically used as a spare.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭alexlyons


    see here, must be insured on its own policy also. Page 17 point

    http://www.aviva.ie/media-library/MotorCare-Policy-Booklet.pdf


    439065.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭alexlyons


    My policy doesn't have that clause in it. I specifically checked when I renewed last summer, due to this car being sporadically used as a spare.

    It is in the standard policy document available to all even before you take out a policy. When you sign up you only get a schedule of insurance


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    alexlyons wrote: »
    It is in the standard policy document available to all even before you take out a policy. When you sign up you only get a schedule of insurance

    I'll have to check it when I get home so! I don't have any defense if that's the case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,886 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    My policy doesn't have that clause in it. I specifically checked when I renewed last summer, due to this car being sporadically used as a spare.

    Who is your actual insurer for the car that is being repaired?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    I'm affraid it looks like OP might get summons for driving with no insurance and tax, and his girlfriend might get summonsed for allowing someone to use her car untaxed and uninsured.

    Unless OP's policy was issued before Aviva included that condition mentioned above, but I doubt it, as I remember we intentionally changed insurer for my wife's car from aviva to different one, and one of the main reasons was fact that they wouldn't cover driving other cars when other car didn't have its own policy. That was a year ago, so the condition was there already then.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    bear1 wrote: »
    Who is your actual insurer for the car that is being repaired?

    Aviva. Really wish I had my documentation here with me, my stomach is a pit of nerves right now. I thought I had everything fine in terms of insurance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Aviva. Really wish I had my documentation here with me, my stomach is a pit of nerves right now. I thought I had everything fine in terms of insurance.

    Did you buy your policy through a broker or directly from Aviva?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭jimd2


    Which car did not have the tax up to date, your own car that had the insurance or your girlfriend's car that you were driving?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭jimd2


    CiniO wrote: »
    I'm affraid it looks like OP might get summons for driving with no insurance and tax, and his girlfriend might get summonsed for allowing someone to use her car untaxed and uninsured.

    Unless OP's policy was issued before Aviva included that condition mentioned above, but I doubt it, as I remember we intentionally changed insurer for my wife's car from aviva to different one, and one of the main reasons was fact that they wouldn't cover driving other cars when other car didn't have its own policy. That was a year ago, so the condition was there already then.
    I think this is true, I came across that before.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    CiniO wrote: »
    Did you buy your policy through a broker or directly from Aviva?

    Directly. Been with them a few years, and just renewed each year.
    jimd2 wrote: »
    Which car did not have the tax up to date, your own car that had the insurance or your girlfriend's car that you were driving?

    The one I was driving. This is what is worrying. If they don't cover an untaxed car on their third party extension and don't say that on their documentation, do they try withdrawing cover for the same reason when my tax is out on my normal car?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Directly. Been with them a few years, and just renewed each year.
    I'm affraid then it means bad news.
    Have a look at their policy booklet on their website.
    Part of it was quoted before up here.

    The one I was driving. This is what is worrying. If they don't cover an untaxed car on their third party extension and don't say that on their documentation, do they try withdrawing cover for the same reason when my tax is out on my normal car?

    It's not a tax which is a problem. Insurer have no legal grounds to refuse cover based on fact that car was untaxed.
    But their policy document explicitly excludes "driving other cars" cover, if other car doesn't have its own policy.


    I wish you good luck. Hope it ends best for you.
    Insurance law and regulations make it very difficult to stay all legal, and allow to be caught in situations like that very easily. It's a joke of a system when it comes to car insurance in Ireland.\


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    CiniO wrote: »
    I'm affraid then it means bad news.
    Have a look at their policy booklet on their website.
    Part of it was quoted before up here.




    It's not a tax which is a problem. Insurer have no legal grounds to refuse cover based on fact that car was untaxed.
    But their policy document explicitly excludes "driving other cars" cover, if other car doesn't have its own policy.


    I wish you good luck. Hope it ends best for you.
    Insurance law and regulations make it very difficult to stay all legal, and allow to be caught in situations like that very easily. It's a joke of a system when it comes to car insurance in Ireland.\

    OK, let's assume that my policy doesn't have that clause on it (My certainty that it doesn't is diminishing by the minute). There is nothing on there to say that the car has to be taxed. They can't say the car wasn't roadworthy as it has a valid NCT. If my policy doesn't specify the car has to be insured separately, then I am obeying all their rules, aren't I?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 529 ✭✭✭conor2469


    CiniO wrote: »
    It's not a tax which is a problem. Insurer have no legal grounds to refuse cover based on fact that car was untaxed.
    But their policy document explicitly excludes "driving other cars" cover, if other car doesn't have its own policy.


    But according to the OP, the Gardai and Insurers aren't taking issue with the lack of insurance due to no main policy on the driven vehicle, they are focusing entirely on the lack of tax?
    According to the conversation between myself, the guard and Aviva, the insurance status of the vehicle doesn't matter. It is solely due to the tax being out that they say I am not covered.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    conor2469 wrote: »
    But according to the OP, the Gardai and Insurers aren't taking issue with the lack of insurance due to no main policy on the driven vehicle, they are focusing entirely on the lack of tax?

    This is correct. The guard actually sympathised with me, and said that he understood the frustation as I appeared to be within Aviva's rules - apart from the lack of tax on the car.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    OK, let's assume that my policy doesn't have that clause on it (My certainty that it doesn't is diminishing by the minute). There is nothing on there to say that the car has to be taxed. They can't say the car wasn't roadworthy as it has a valid NCT. If my policy doesn't specify the car has to be insured separately, then I am obeying all their rules, aren't I?

    I'd say so. Obviously except from driving untaxed as you can still be done for it.
    But insurancewise it all should be clear based on your assumptions.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    conor2469 wrote: »
    But according to the OP, the Gardai and Insurers aren't taking issue with the lack of insurance due to no main policy on the driven vehicle, they are focusing entirely on the lack of tax?

    There's absolutely nothing in avivas policy document about requiring car to be taxed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,831 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Hi guys

    I've been stopped at a checkpoint today, and the car was taken on me. I was driving it on third party extension due to my own car dying in the cold weather a few days ago. Car is registered to my girlfriend. The tax is out, and it's NCTed until end of February.

    The guards took the car due to Aviva telling them that I'm not covered due to my tax being out. This is despite it not saying anything on my documentation about the car having to be taxed. What are my options here? In my opinion, I was doing everything right.

    Everything except the motor tax that the rest of us scrimp and save to pay because it’s the law.

    Your options are pay up the arrears and get the car back.

    Will you be charged for driving with no insurance ??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭beechwood55


    Have you been asked to produce documents at the Garda station?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭riemann


    third party extension is only covered if the other car has its own insurance policy.

    That is the exact same rule applied by every other insurer I know of.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    Have you been asked to produce documents at the Garda station?

    Yes. Actually, if I pay the tax on it right now, would that then mean I was insured according to their rules?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 358 ✭✭Alan_007_


    riemann wrote: »
    That is the exact same rule applied by every other insurer I know of.

    In my experience it's the exception for the other car to need insurance in it's own right.

    Liberty definitely don't require it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    Alan_007_ wrote: »
    In my experience it's the exception for the other car to need insurance in it's own right.

    Liberty definitely don't require it.

    Same. I've never actually encountered a third party extension that requires a car to be insured by itself before. Sure there would hardly be a point to it if that was the case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,186 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    This is correct. The guard actually sympathised with me, and said that he understood the frustation as I appeared to be within Aviva's rules - apart from the lack of tax on the car.

    its possible the guard just said tax but meant insurance.

    i was with hibernian/aviva for donkeys. they always had the policy that to drive other cars the other car had to be insured. i actually thought it applies to all companies.

    think about it.

    get a quote for a seriously nice powerful Lambo. insurance cost is ridiculous, even for the basic third party. so go and get cheap insurance on a different car, so now you can drive the Lambo! doesn't make sense does it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,529 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Same. I've never actually encountered a third party extension that requires a car to be insured by itself before. Sure there would hardly be a point to it if that was the case.
    On the other hand, if the other car doesn't need to be insured, what's to stop someone buying and insuring a small, cheap runabout, but also have a fleet of uninsured high performance supercars belonging to their spouse, and merrily driving them around instead of the runabout? That doesn't make much sense to me either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭MortGoldman


    Seve OB wrote: »
    its possible the guard just said tax but meant insurance.

    i was with hibernian/aviva for donkeys. they always had the policy that to drive other cars the other car had to be insured. i actually thought it applies to all companies.

    think about it.

    get a quote for a seriously nice powerful Lambo. insurance cost is ridiculous, even for the basic third party. so go and get cheap insurance on a different car, so now you can drive the Lambo! doesn't make sense does it?

    Nope, specifically meant tax. We had Aviva on speakerphone and I heard the conversation. THe guy at the end of the phone said I was covered, as long as the car had valid NCT & tax. I had the NCT, but no tax.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,562 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Alun wrote: »
    On the other hand, if the other car doesn't need to be insured, what's to stop someone buying and insuring a small, cheap runabout, but also have a fleet of uninsured high performance supercars belonging to their spouse, and merrily driving them around instead of the runabout? That doesn't make much sense to me either.
    Nearly all if not all will exclude vehicles owned by a spouse, or a car you regularly drive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,886 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Yes. Actually, if I pay the tax on it right now, would that then mean I was insured according to their rules?

    No cause the event has already happened and so it will documented as driving without valid insurance.
    Personally I think you need to get some legal advice as this will bite you hard.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    riemann wrote: »
    That is the exact same rule applied by every other insurer I know of.

    Not true.
    Aviva seems to be the only one on Irish market making such requirement.
    I haven't heard of any other insurer doing it.


    Seve OB wrote: »
    its possible the guard just said tax but meant insurance.
    Everything is possible.
    i was with hibernian/aviva for donkeys. they always had the policy that to drive other cars the other car had to be insured. i actually thought it applies to all companies.
    No, Aviva only introrduced that requirement over a year ago as far as I remember.
    We were insured with them since 2007, and never before they had this requirement.
    think about it.

    get a quote for a seriously nice powerful Lambo. insurance cost is ridiculous, even for the basic third party. so go and get cheap insurance on a different car, so now you can drive the Lambo! doesn't make sense does it?

    Why not...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭beechwood55


    What do you have to bring to the garda station? Is it insurance documents for both cars or just for your own car?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 462 ✭✭john kinsella


    OP, pay tax on it now and see what happens.

    As the above posters have mentioned Aviva specifically state the car needs to be insured in it's own right. This is without question so you were technically not insured. There is no mention of Tax on their booklet whatsoever so I think between the Garda and Aviva there has been a bit of a miscommunication. The car does not have to be taxed to be insured.

    If the Garda believes (incorrectly) the only reason you weren't insured is because of the tax I would be down to the station immediately with proof of tax on the car. They may well be lenient on you.


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