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Cam footage - who is at fault here?!

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    #32
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    If it was me I would have let him go unless he was completely stopped and it was clear that he wasnt going to proceed.

    On the other hand (and legality aside), what kind of s**thead turns across a cyclist and then continues to drive into him even when its clear he's proceeding? If you are driving in that situation the only safe thing to do is to wait until the cycle lane is clear before turning.


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    #33
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,020 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Coming back to the video, I'd say that as soon as the bike moves clear in front of the car's front bumper it has right of way, regardless of what happened before.

    So whilst we don't know who was wrong in the initial pass (no front footage), there is only one person definitely in the wrong in this video, and that's the driver.
    droidus wrote: »
    what kind of s**thead turns across a cyclist and then continues to drive into him even when its clear he's proceeding?

    Exactly.


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    #34
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    Yeah, you could take the initial turn as being a mistake - he technically has right of way, and maybe he hadn't checked his mirrors again before he started turning - but to continue on as if the cyclist wasn't there when he's right in front of you?


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    #35
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,960 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Leaving aside any legal rights, the car driver should have stopped when it was clear that a more vulnerable road user was in his turning line.


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    #36
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    Leaving aside any legal rights, the car driver should have stopped when it was clear that a more vulnerable road user was in his turning line.

    BMWs aren't occupied by drivers, just giant phalluses.


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    #37
    Wildsurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭Wildsurfer


    A little poem thought to me by my late Dad that I will share with you now OP:
    "Here lies the body of Benjamin Gray,
    who died maintaining his right of way,
    He was right, dead right, as he cycled along,
    But now he is dead as though he was wrong"


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    #38
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    comanche_cor wrote: »
    As a driver I would let a cyclist through in this scenario as I don't trust them if they are up my inside at a junction. No clue what the rules of priority are in this scenario, but common sense should prevail!
    Precisely, the driver of the larger or vehicle capable of causing most harm/danger should be acting in the most risk adverse in every scenario. Not giving carte blanche to smaller vehicles and cyclists to not give a sh1t but just sort of saying, you know what, maybe the thing that causes the danger should be handled with more care.
    I trust no one anymore, its just easier. I wave thank you to people who stop to let me through but I nearly always indicate and go around them if there is even a hint of turning.
    When I started commuting more and more on the N11, I quickly learned to take the lane at the bottom of Fosters Avenue to stop left hooks. Most mornings I end up in the driving lane. The first few weeks I got some angry huffs from bus drivers but now, more people are doing it, cars can turn left earlier and buses get through quicker as well.
    jon1981 wrote: »
    There was a car in front that was slow to take off going straight ahead when the light turned green, hence the car slowing down beside me. When I came alongside him due to him having to slow down for the car ahead, he actually accelerated slightly to make the turn once the car moved off. He saw me.
    Nothing excuses the behaviour, being in the right is not a card that lets you off the hook for being a c*****g.


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    #39
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    OP,

    Did you cut across the BMW driver to exit through a pedestrian crossing (green man)? And you want to know who is in the wrong?


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    #40
    jon1981
    Registered Users Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭jon1981


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    OP,

    Did you cut across the BMW driver to exit through a pedestrian crossing (green man)? And you want to know who is in the wrong?

    Yes I did to avoid being f**king run over. As you can see there was no pedestrian in the vicinity of the crossing. What did you expect me to do?!


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    #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Legally:
    If the driver was at the turn, indicating, and moving before you got to them, then they had the right of way as I think, and could be wrong, that cycle tracks on road are not separate lanes.

    Just on a point of fact pausing the video at 7 seconds the bicycle is firmly alongside the car which is indicating (I think) but not yet at the turn and certainly not yet 'moving' (if by moving we mean executing the turn).

    Don't disagree with the general sentiment and I would also hold back, but I think the driver is far more 'guilty' here.


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    #42
    jon1981
    Registered Users Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭jon1981


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just on a point of fact pausing the video at 7 seconds the bicycle is firmly alongside the car which is indicating (I think) but not yet at the turn and certainly not yet 'moving' (if by moving we mean executing the turn).

    Don't disagree with the general sentiment and I would also hold back, but I think the driver is far more 'guilty' here.

    You know, I can accept the partial blame , the behaviour of the driver afterwards is what shocked me.


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    #43
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    OP why did you stop? It seems to me that if you had kept going, you would have cleared the junction and the BMW could have turned behind you? To me, it looks like you stopped so you could confront the driver?


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    #44
    jon1981
    Registered Users Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭jon1981


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    OP why did you stop? It seems to me that if you had kept going, you would have cleared the junction and the BMW could have turned behind you? To me, it looks like you stopped so you could confront the driver?

    No way, if I hadn't stopped I definitely would have been across the bonnet. I wasn't confident I would have cleared him. I could see him continuing his move as I was passing the corner so I slowed down in case he did clip me.


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    #45
    twowheelsonly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭twowheelsonly


    jon1981 wrote: »
    Actually what you don't see is the queue of cars ahead of him. We reached the junction at the same time.

    IMO, and given that there's only rear cam footage, you only reached the junction at the same time because you came up inside him as he was indicating to turn. You should have hung back and given him time to do so, just as the cyclist who was following you did. If that was a truck or a bus you were toast...

    Expect the unexpected and look after yourself. Don't expect others to look after you out there.

    BTW, if the video showed that the car wasn't indicating I would be 100% on your side but it doesn't. If that video was shown at your inquest then I'd bet that it would be 'death by misadventure' due to the fact that you took a chance by trying to undertake a vehicle that was turning left.


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    #46
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    jon1981 wrote: »
    No way, if I hadn't stopped I definitely would have been across the bonnet. I wasn't confident I would have cleared him.

    Then you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The BMW driver was an ass! Regardless of legalities, there’s no excuse for deliberately driving at someone.


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    #47
    ford2600
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    To answer OP (had there being injuries to warrant it) in a civil court you are getting paid in a criminal case he doesn't get convicted


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    #48
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    jon1981 wrote: »
    Yes I did to avoid being f**king run over. As you can see there was no pedestrian in the vicinity of the crossing. What did you expect me to do?!

    It's a bit confusing looking at it from a rear camera angle, and you probably weren't thinking straight because of the BMW driver's actions (if I understand it correctly now), but you technically should have dismounted crossing the pedestrian crossing.


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    #49
    jon1981
    Registered Users Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭jon1981


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    but you technically should have dismounted crossing the pedestrian crossing.

    Yeah, i could have killed someone, sorry about that.


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    #50
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    jon1981 wrote: »
    Yeah, i could have killed someone, sorry about that.

    No, but if you're on an internet forum complaining about who was right and who was wrong it's to be highlighted.

    Cyclists (not all) can sometimes pick and choose the traffic legislation that suits them rather than what is expected. That's the point.


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    #51
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    MOD VOICE: To save this going down the rabbit hole, lets focus on the turning car and the cyclist going straight through, and the incident involving them alone. While people may be correct about ped crossings, or the cyclist behind on the footpath, it is not the point of the thread and it is only trying to take away from the discussion point. Any questions via PM


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    #52
    jon1981
    Registered Users Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭jon1981


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    No, but if you're on an internet forum complaining about who was right and who was wrong it's to be highlighted.

    Cyclists (not all) can sometimes pick and choose the traffic legislation that suits them rather than what is expected. That's the point.

    I willingly put my experience up here for discussion. I'm asking about the junction. What I did to protect myself after was in the heat of the moment.

    However I did ensure I wasn't going to kill someone in order to get out of the way of the car.


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    #53
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,180 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Guys, I've seen a guy getting wiped out on the road. He was in the right and couldn't avoid anything but that didn't matter one bit, he was dead by the time that I got to him.

    It's not f#cking worth it.

    Seemingly too much sense in this post for the OP.


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    #54
    knucklehead6
    Registered Users Posts: 6,746 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    jon1981 wrote: »
    I willingly put my experience up here for discussion. I'm asking about the junction. What I did to protect myself after was in the heat of the moment.

    However I did ensure I wasn't going to kill someone in order to get out of the way of the car.

    instead your bull headedness put yourself in a position where YOU could potentially have been killed.


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    #55
    site_owner
    Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭site_owner


    a few poeple mentioned that its only safe to pass on the inside if you can complete the pass before the turning vehicle turns.
    looking at the video i think you were in front of them before they reached the junction and before they began to turn there wheels.
    they got you becuase, i presume, traffic up ahead moved and they accelerated to get the turn they had been waiting for.

    i think they are wrong, no questions.

    for my own safety, at that junction and a few other left turns like that, i try to take the lane or filter on the right, which you may want to adopt in future.

    and my own guess, given how much of a rush he was in, he would be trying to rat-run through east wall and ossory road due to being pissed at stuck in traffic for too long. hardly anyone takes that left because it goes nowhere and alfie bynre is quicker


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    #56
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,110 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    jon1981 wrote: »
    What did you expect me to do?!
    Serious question, could you not have just stopped?
    Didn't look like either of you were moving at any great speed.
    comanche_cor wrote: »

    As a driver I would let a cyclist through in this scenario as I don't trust them if they are up my inside at a junction.
    There are many junctions where this approach would lead to the car not being able to make any progress while a stream of bikes overtake on the left. Then the lights turn red and another stream of bikes catchup and repeat.
    comanche_cor wrote: »
    I simply think that this could have been avoided by hanging back a few feet and waiting a few seconds.
    +1
    And no ones life would have been at risk.


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    #57
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,110 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    site_owner wrote: »
    a few poeple mentioned that its only safe to pass on the inside if you can complete the pass before the turning vehicle turns.
    looking at the video i think you were in front of them before they reached the junction and before they began to turn there wheels.
    they got you becuase, i presume, traffic up ahead moved and they accelerated to get the turn they had been waiting for.

    i think they are wrong, no questions.

    for my own safety, at that junction and a few other left turns like that, i try to take the lane or filter on the right, which you may want to adopt in future.

    and my own guess, given how much of a rush he was in, he would be trying to rat-run through east wall and ossory road due to being pissed at stuck in traffic for too long. hardly anyone takes that left because it goes nowhere and alfie bynre is quicker


    I disagree, if a car is indicating and moving then I dont go near them unless I am 100% sure that I will be long gone before they reach the junction.
    As someone else mentioned already, move in behind any indicating car and act like a vehicle, move back out once past the junction. Everyone lives.


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    #58
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,020 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    knucklehead6 wrote: »
    instead your bull headedness put yourself in a position where YOU could potentially have been killed.
    I really don't think there's any need for that kind of patronising, judgemental tone.

    The OP simply asked for opinions.


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    #59
    Cunning Alias
    Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Cunning Alias


    Gotta be fake, BMW’s don’t have indicators..



    Seriously though, I would have thought the car was at fault, even if it was indicating as you approached. I use a few left turns like this and always stop if there is a cyclist approaching behind. If I took it as "I can turn as long as I am a bit ahead and indicating" I’m pretty sure I would have a dent in my door within a few weeks.


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    #60
    jon1981
    Registered Users Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭jon1981


    knucklehead6 wrote: »
    instead your bull headedness put yourself in a position where YOU could potentially have been killed.

    I wouldn't call it bull headedness. More so a lapse in judgement. Be careful up there on your high horse.


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    site_owner wrote: »
    looking at the video i think you were in front of them before they reached the junction and before they began to turn there wheels.

    this is a fair point. The bike is actually ahead of the car and certainly must have been clearly visible when the car started turning.

    We may be largely in agreement that it is risky to go up the inside of indicating cars, however many of us probably still do when we are confident we will get ahead of them before any turn (ie they are stationary).

    It does look like the OP was ahead of the car on arrival at the actual turn.


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