Colleague outperforming me because she works out of hours.

9to5247

Long story short, myself and a colleague work under the same manager.

Our hours are regular office hours - 9 to 5 Monday to Friday.

She excels at her job compared to me as she continues work when she gets home and all through the weekend.

There are a million examples but a recent one is replying to queries on our Facebook page at 11pm tonight (like an hour ago). This is what made me create this thread.

So what happens usually is we come in on a Monday morning and she has some great updates to share, whereas I have been enjoying my weekend and have nothing to show.

After a few months of this it's beginning to make me feel like I'm under-performing. I'm thinking that perhaps the only way to meet the expectations of my manager (set by my never logged out colleague) is to never log out myself and basically carry my work in my phone wherever I am, even on holidays. (Yes she was working during Christmas).

Anybody else in this situation? What would you do or what should I do? It feels like I'm starting to fall behind.

Another part of me is thinking: if you love your job it doesn't feel like a job. She could be one of those lucky mother effers!

drunkmonkey

Don't worry about it there heading for a management role, if that's not your intention right now there's no need to go toe to toe with them. They also might be heading for disappointement if they get passed over.

Cash_Q

I love my job and it doesn't feel like a job but I do not carry on like her. My job requires me to do a discretionary amount of work after hours but I know when to draw the line. You're not under performing unless your manager tells you so, and if they do then ask them to suggest ways you could be more productive inside working hours. If they compare your performance to hers then tell them how she achieves her work and explain you're not prepared to do this. Work is Work, you do it so you can have a nice life, don't let it intrude on your free time. Sounds like she will burn out soon. Her manager should be discouraging her if anything.

9to5247

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Don't worry about it there heading for a management role, if that's not your intention right now there's no need to go toe to toe with them. They also might be heading for disappointement if they get passed over.

It is my intention to eventually become a manager. I'm not prepared to log in to work on days off though.

drunkmonkey

9to5247 wrote: »

It is my intention to eventually become a manager. I'm not prepared to log in to work on days off though.

When you a manger you may have to. Right now you don't so don't. There is a possibility this person becomes your manager in the future though.
Should make for some interesting meetings about overtime and your right to party.
Your doing nothing wrong, enjoy yourself.

TimeToShine

All power to her. Don't know what you expect to happen here, you are not under-performing but she is welcome to work extra hard if she thinks it'll get her to where she wants to be. And if she gets a promotion ahead of you then she deserves it, all you can do is decide if your work/life balance matches up with what you want to achieve and if not then do something about it.

the_pen_turner

how about pointing out that the employer is failing to enforce mandatory breaks from work . arnt they supposed to make sure you take your breaks

Pat Mustard

the_pen_turner wrote: »

how about pointing out that the employer is failing to enforce mandatory breaks from work . arnt they supposed to make sure you take your breaks

Whoah. Obviously not trying to win friends and influence people here.

ED E

9to5247 wrote: »

It is my intention to eventually become a manager. I'm not prepared to log in to work on days off though.

This is classic shift worker vs salaried worker.

She's in the next mindset, you're not.

the_pen_turner

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Whoah. Obviously not trying to win friends and influence people here.

what why

9to5247

TimeToShine wrote: »

All power to her. Don't know what you expect to happen here, you are not under-performing but she is welcome to work extra hard if she thinks it'll get her to where she wants to be. And if she gets a promotion ahead of you then she deserves it, all you can do is decide if your work/life balance matches up with what you want to achieve and if not then do something about it.

I'd love to know your position in whatever company you work for. Are you speaking from a manager's or CEO's point of view for example?

By the way I agree with you. But that's approaching an American level of work ethic which I'm not comfortable with. I just can't imagine interrupting whatever I'm doing on my day off to catch up with work for a few hours. But that's the type of person I work with.

9to5247

ED E wrote: »

This is classic shift worker vs salaried worker.

She's in the next mindset, you're not.

Not sure I understand your comment. We're both on fixed salary. No overtime.

NinetyTwoTeam

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Don't worry about it there heading for a management role, if that's not your intention right now there's no need to go toe to toe with them. They also might be heading for disappointement if they get passed over.

+1 on this. I once worked at a factory on a fixed term contract where there were 2 day shift employees and 2 night shift employees in our position, we worked independently on a machine testing parts. Me and another guy were on the nights.

The other night shift guy was always asking what numbers I had done so he could one up me, because they were dangling 2 permanent jobs in front of us (out of the 4 of us 2 would be kept). I didn't want to be kept on so I didn't care, and I thought the day shift ones would get anyway but I did wonder how it was he was always doing more than me. I then found out he was not following procedures on the machine to load it faster. This eventually led to him breaking the machine, requiring an expensive part to be replaced and testing had to stop.

He was upset then, because he thought that would kill his chance at the permanent job, and I said to him, 'Listen the day shift testers work alongside the managers all day, while the managers don't know who we are. They're on the tag rugby team with them because they're off in the evening, and one of them is a nice looking woman. They were always gonna be the ones kept on, regardless.'

But he was still adamant he should get it as he always had the best numbers.

Anyway, the day shift ones got the 2 jobs and he flipped out because he thought he was the best, and they fired him due to this out burst.

So having good relationship with your colleagues is often just as important as productivity, and as long as you are reliable and proficient, having a life outside of work like a normal person should be perfectly acceptable. When someone is trying to do too much it can be detrimental to a group and even annoy the managers, because they can mess things up.

I also had a boss tell me if someone stays late or takes work home, that doesn't impress him, that makes him think the person lacks competency or time management skills, that he expects the work to be done within business hours because he doesn't want things happening overnight he's unaware of and he doesn't want people to be burnt out.

Purple Mountain

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

I also had a boss tell me if someone stays late or takes work home, that doesn't impress him, that makes him think the person lacks competency or time management skills, that he expects the work to be done within business hours because he doesn't want things happening overnight he's unaware of and he doesn't want people to be burnt out.

This is absolutely the voice of reason!
There would be no work/life balance otherwise and this is imperative.

seamus

Purple Mountain wrote: »

This is absolutely the voice of reason!
There would be no work/life balance otherwise and this is imperative.

+1

Someone who'll jump in out of hours every now and again is valuable. Someone who is permanently online every hour of the day is a breakdown or a walkout waiting to happen. They're also setting themselves up for a fall - they'll log into the work facebook page at 2am one Saturday after a feed of pints and do something stupid.

In all seriousness if you're getting your work done inside your normal hours, you don't need to compare yourself to her.

Manager want to promote peers; people they feel they can get along with. Someone who is online working 24/7 may not be that person, especially if the manager is the kind to leave in the evening and disconnect.

Diziet

Focus on process improvement and on specific projects with tangible benefits rather than the day to day operations that are simply a function of hours worked. If you can do that, then you are creating value without being tied to your phone all day. 
The expectation to work all hours is a slippery slope, but of course if a colleague does this then it is their choice.

Jimbob1977

My wife has brought home work in the evenings for most of her career.

It has aged her dramatically. Face straining and staring at the screen when she should be relaxing. 5pm becomes 9pm.

Her colleagues and her manager don't work a second beyond 9am to 5pm. She knows this, but she is ultimately a workaholic.

Has she risen to a senior level? Yes!! Through her natural talent.

Does anyone remember you for your great overtime ability? No

Sunny Dayz

OP why is she doing so much overtime? Why can't she get all of her work done during work hours? Is her work load too large or are yours and hers both the same? I'm assuming that your department workload isn't too large or you would be under pressure too and would have mentioned it in your post. I'm also assuming she doesn't get paid or time in lieu for the extra hours.


Is what's she doing outside work hours adding value? I wouldn't expect any business to respond on facebook at 11pm on a weekend night, except maybe a bar/nightclub.


Is your manager aware of how much out of hours work she is doing? I know if I was doing a lot of overtime my manager would be asking questions of me, why I need to. If I'm still at my desk 30 mins after my finishing time he asks me why I'm still there and if the work cannot wait until the following morning.


As others have said a work/life balance is important, you need to have down time from work. A trend I've seen in the past year or two is young women fresh out of college a couple of years and trying to get ahead in their career as quick as possible, trying to impress management etc.

Sunny Dayz

9to5247 wrote: »

So what happens usually is we come in on a Monday morning and she has some great updates to share, whereas I have been enjoying my weekend and have nothing to show.

Her "great updates" and your "nothing to show" are just work related.
You don't have nothing so show. Talk about your enjoyable weekend, especially if your boss is in earshot. Talk about the social things you did (not that you got hammered on Sat night). But things like I had a match, we lost but went with the rest of team for a few pints. Mention if you volunteered, went to the cinema, went for dinner, visited the parents or gran etc. Show that you are social, personable, interesting, a team person, using skills outside of work etc. If you are going for management you need to be a people person, an all rounder as well as a hard worker.

Bredabe

If she is working unpaid for those extra hours, she is breaking the law. she may find herself in deep dodo when colleagues with an agenda formally complain to management.

CruelCoin

the_pen_turner wrote: »

what why

Someones eager to work hard and/or enjoys their job, but you want management to put a spoke in her wheels because of breaks?

I can imagine how that would go:
Person a - "Boss, you need to do something. Person B is working really hard, and you should totally stop them"
Boss - "WUT"

seamus

CruelCoin wrote: »

Someones eager to work hard and/or enjoys their job, but you want management to put a spoke in her wheels because of breaks?

I can imagine how that would go:
Person a - "Boss, you need to do something. Person B is working really hard, and you should totally stop them"
Boss - "WUT"

Or...

"Boss, I'm concerned that the amount of work B is doing is in contravention of the working time act. If she were to go on stress leave or quit, she could bring a claim against the company for overworking her. "

A good manager puts the well being of their staff above any company priorities. Any manager or company who is happy to look the other way while staff do 80 hours a week is not the kind of place you want to work anyway. So if the OP were to highlight this problem and the boss said, "So what", I'd suggest they go find a new job in a better company.

the_pen_turner

seamus wrote: »

Or...

"Boss, I'm concerned that the amount of work B is doing is in contravention of the working time act. If she were to go on stress leave or quit, she could bring a claim against the company for overworking her. "

A good manager puts the well being of their staff above any company priorities. Any manager or company who is happy to look the other way while staff do 80 hours a week is not the kind of place you want to work anyway. So if the OP were to highlight this problem and the boss said, "So what", I'd suggest they go find a new job in a better company.

exactly/
an employer has a duty of care to the employee. the employer must make sure that the employee takes the mandatory amount of breaks. this is law. the employer could be reprimanded for it

WhatsGoingOn2

Bredabe wrote: »

If she is working unpaid for those extra hours, she is breaking the law. she may find herself in deep dodo when colleagues with an agenda formally complain to management.

There is no such law!

Jimbob1977

Bredabe wrote: »

If she is working unpaid for those extra hours, she is breaking the law. she may find herself in deep dodo when colleagues with an agenda formally complain to management.

If the overtime hours are voluntary, I can't see any law being contravened.

If she is being bullied into overtime, then it would be a different issue.

We'd all be in court if unpaid overtime was a crime

cruizer101

CruelCoin wrote: »

Someones eager to work hard and/or enjoys their job, but you want management to put a spoke in her wheels because of breaks?

I can imagine how that would go:
Person a - "Boss, you need to do something. Person B is working really hard, and you should totally stop them"
Boss - "WUT"

Bit off topic but I have heard of this happening in public sector and the reaction being to tell the person to slow down as they are showing up others.

In relation to OP if she is doing this of her own bat there is not much you can do, if she wants to put in extra hours to make herself seem better fair enough. Some managers may not view it in a good light but that is down to them.

mloc123

Thread is pretty funny reading... people think that doing anything beyond the bare minimum 9-5 hours is breaking the law People that work hard and put in *some* extra hours will get ahead in any company and move up, anyone that does the bare minimum generally will not. Some people enjoy what they do and don't see it as a chore, possibly have nothing else on in the evening and decide to get some extra work done to keep busy.. shocker.

In my experience it is the people that but in the bare minimum that are the most vocal about not being promoted, getting a pay increase etc..

davo10

mloc123 wrote: »

Thread is pretty funny reading... people think that doing anything beyond the bare minimum 9-5 hours is breaking the law People that work hard and put in *some* extra hours will get ahead in any company and move up, anyone that does the bare minimum generally will not. Some people enjoy what they do and don't see it as a chore, possibly have nothing else on in the evening and decide to get some extra work done to keep busy.. shocker.

In my experience it is the people that but in the bare minimum that are the most vocal about not being promoted, getting a pay increase etc..

Have to agree 100% with this. If the ops colleague was being made do the work by his/her employer, then there would be an issue. She is doing it of her own volition to get ahead, and seems to be doing a good job. Putting the op and his/her colleague side by side, the colleague is going the extra mile to be noticed and potentially move up the ranks. If he/she is promoted, it will be deserved.

sbsquarepants

There's people like that in every company - they usually do quite well....if you consider working all day and all night, weekends, holidays etc doing well that is.
I personally consider it a waste of a life, but sure each to their own.
All you can really do is leave her to it and do your own thing, she is going to look more productive than you for the simple reason that she is more productive than you!

daheff

In my experience the people who do this crazy amount of work get looked after for money, but not promotion.
Why? Well is the person is promoted the company might need to hire two people to cover the workload, so its not worth their while rewarding the work with a promotion...or if it is, its a bs one that effectively leaves them doing the same work(or more).

whippet

a decent employer can see though this sort of nonsense.

In theory I can be 'logged in' 24/7 but unless there is something out of the ordinary it would be seen as a problem if I felt I had to work in the evenings / weekends etc; my capacity / ability to do my role would be questioned and many times it is looked at in negative terms.

Did that facebook message have to be responded to on a sunday night? probably not - so it won't give any added kudos to your colleague; but if your employer feels that it's worthy of preferred progression you probably should consider if you want to continue on with them.

Just to note - I have worked many late nights, early mornings, all-nighters and on a very few occasions while I was on annual leave; but these were 100% necessary and a decent employer will always remember / respect those who will put in the extra when needed

seamus

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

If the overtime hours are voluntary, I can't see any law being contravened.

If she is being bullied into overtime, then it would be a different issue.

We'd all be in court if unpaid overtime was a crime

Ah you see, now you're into managerial territory.

The law doesn't really distinguish between "mandatory" and "voluntary" hours. Any time spent working, is time at work. It doesn't matter if you have decided entirely of your own volition to log in and do work at 10am on a Sunday morning, you are still "at work" for legal purposes.

However, obviously if the employee isn't complaining, then there's no issue. It's not going to become an issue unless the employee complains about it. And if the employee does make a complaint, the employer can legitimately say, "Well I didn't know she was doing ten hours every Sunday, and I never asked her to".

But that's where the employer in the OP has a conundrum - the work being done by her colleague is visible, and therefore the employer is aware that this employee is routinely working out of hours.

Every employer has a duty to ensure, as far as is possible, that employees do not work more hours than legally allowed. So if the colleague is doing these hours, and the employer is aware of this, then the employer can be landed in the brown stuff if the employee claims that they're overworked.

A court would rule that the employer should have told the employee to stop working out of hours, or even go as far as disabling her ability to access company resources out of hours.

Having a "don't ask, don't tell" policy in relation to unpaid hours, is a known way of subtly forcing employees to overwork themselves, and a court would be unlikely to accept "I didn't know" as an excuse. The manager/employer has a duty of care to the employee and a duty to raise concerns where an employee is going above "above and beyond".

heroics

ED E wrote: »

This is classic shift worker vs salaried worker.

She's in the next mindset, you're not.

No its not.

This is brought up all the time. Just because you are salaried does not mean that you do not get overtime or are expected to work long hours.

I have been salaried my entire career. I get overtime and am not expected to work outside of rostered/working hours without additional pay/time off.

And no I don't work in public sector.

There is a level that you can get to that you don't get paid additional per hour but this is senior management/executive level and usually paid enough to take OT into account.

Max Prophet

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

Her "great updates" and your "nothing to show" are just work related.
You don't have nothing so show. Talk about your enjoyable weekend, especially if your boss is in earshot. Talk about the social things you did (not that you got hammered on Sat night). But things like I had a match, we lost but went with the rest of team for a few pints. Mention if you volunteered, went to the cinema, went for dinner, visited the parents or gran etc. Show that you are social, personable, interesting, a team person, using skills outside of work etc. If you are going for management you need to be a people person, an all rounder as well as a hard worker.

Don't do this - you will look like a max sap.

the_pen_turner

is she efficient though. just because she puts in the hours doesn't mean that it is reflected in the output.

CruelCoin

seamus wrote: »

A good manager puts the well being of their staff above any company priorities.

That's a really narrow and one-sided view.

A manager has as much a duty of care to the company as he/she does to their staff.
Equally, a good manager should be a facilitator, and if someone wants to works their socks off to advance their career, then so be it, and more power to them.

I really cannot understand people who claim to want to advance while simultaneously refusing to do other than the minimum requirement.

the_pen_turner

the duty of care to the company also covers not opening the company to liability from overworking or facilitating overworking of employees

davo10

whippet wrote: »

a decent employer can see though this sort of nonsense.

Employee shows initiative and ambition by voluntarily doing extra work on their own time, I gotta tell ya, employers tend to like that kinda thing. By the ops own admission, he now looks bad in comparison, his colleague looks better, that's not nonsense.

davo10

the_pen_turner wrote: »

the duty of care to the company also covers not opening the company to liability from overworking or facilitating overworking of employees

I'm interested to know how a company would be liable for an employee doing work at home/after work hours voluntarily. I would suspect the government/public service/legal profession would be among the notable beneficiaries of extra working time practices. But hey, if there is a law to stop voluntary work, so be it.

the_pen_turner

seamus above has pointed it out.
there is a law there and the employer could get in trouble if the overworker claimed from them

El Tarangu

Op - many years from now, when you are on your deathbed, as you look back on a life well-lived, all the experiences and relationships that shaped your life, friends and lovers, joy and heartache, all of that stuff, do you think you will look back and say to yourself: "I really wish I had worked all those extra unpaid hours on the off-chance that I get promoted ahead of my colleague"?

If so, then by all means start working evenings and weekends for free. If not, don't.

seamus

CruelCoin wrote: »

That's a really narrow and one-sided view.

Perhaps. My personal view is that a manager who puts the company's balance sheet above the well being of their staff must be some kind of sociopath.

Just me though.

In any case, you can take the flip view that a manager who doesn't put the well-being of their staff first puts the company in jeopardy, either through the potential legal fallout, or the diminished morale and productivity that comes from overworked staff. And thus, a manager who's only focussed on delivering OKRs and KPIs and TPS reports regardless of how their staff are doing, is a liability to any company.

The well-being of a company is dependent on the well-being of its staff.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

davo10

the_pen_turner wrote: »

seamus above has pointed it out.
there is a law there and the employer could get in trouble if the overworker claimed from them

Does the OWA prohibit voluntary,unpaid work in an employee's own time? Again, every Government office, teacher, Doctor, Solicitor, accountant etc would fall foul of such a law. Perhaps Seamus would kindly link to the legislation, this being a very different situation from an employer requesting an employee to do the out of hours work.

To me this looks like a person wanting to highlight their willingness to go the extra mile and achieving better results in the process. This person either loves their work, has no life outside work, or more likely, wants to advance more quickly than those who just work the required hours. This person has the good sense to make her extra effort noticed by her manager, by the ops admission, she is now making the others look bad. More power to her, a strong will to advance a career is not for everyone.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

seamus

davo10 wrote: »

Does the OWA prohibit voluntary,unpaid work in an employee's own time? Again, every Government office, teacher, Doctor, Solicitor, accountant etc would fall foul of such a law. Perhaps Seamus would kindly link to the legislation, this being a very different situation from an employer requesting an employee to do the out of hours work.

Organisation of working time act:

“working time” means any time that the employee is—

(a) at his or her place of work or at his or her employer's disposal, and

(b) carrying on or performing the activities or duties of his or her work

Voluntary or not, an employee who makes themselves "at his or her employer's disposal" and is doing work, is "working" for the purposes of the OWA.

Now, there is plenty of scope for argument there, especially the bit about being "at your employer's disposal".

But you can be guaranteed that 99 times out of 100 the court will side with an overworked employee and not with a company shrugging their shoulders and pleading ignorance.

cruizer101

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

While I wouldn't say they should be punished as such why shouldn't someone else who decides to go the extra mile be recognised and given credit for it, and possibly get promoted first.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

cruizer101

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, and if it is the case that the other worker isn't getting their work done in work and is having to go over hours to get it done than that is a bad sign.
But if their effort and output is equal in work and the other worker does extra on top of that of course it is going to reflect better on them.
At the end of the day everyone has to find their work life balance. I could probably earn more money by working harder on in a more pressurized job but I personally don't think its worth it.
I don't disagree that it is annoying for the OP but realistically there is not much can be done. OP is spending their free time enjoying themselves which is good I would advocate doing that but a consequence of that can be earning less money.

o1s1n

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

'The extra mile' is dictated by whomever is managing the promotional role.

If an employer sees two people doing the same job, yet one is doing mountains of overtime for free on the weekend etc, of course they're going to promote that person. They're getting more out of them.

Fair? of course not. But then these things are rarely fair.

CruelCoin

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

To be fair, the hard working childless individual should not be handicapped either for putting career first.
In all but the most extreme cases, having children is a voluntary exercise, and that's a voluntary handicap. Those blessed with children (largely) gain their fulfillment through their kids, not work.