Am I a rapist?

chickenmoscow

I know the title sounds provocative but I am, quite sincerely, wondering whether I have in the past committed an offence.
There are two episodes I'd like to sketch out:
First, there was an episode where I traveled with a friend of mine. He is straight and I am gay; I was attracted to him when I was 18 (I'm now 27). There was an occasion in which I came home drunk to find him in his hostel bed. The next thing I remember is waking up cuddling up to him while he's sleeping (both of us are just wearing boxer shorts at this point). Eventually he woke up, realized I was cuddling him and touching his body, and asked me what I was doing in his bed. At that point, it dawned upon me that I shouldn't even be there. I left the bed and went into my own. Can this be considered a sexual offence?
Second, I was visiting a friend of mine in Germany about 6 years ago. Again, we got drunk and I can vaguely recall unbuttoning his shirt when he was asleep and touching his torso and face. In both cases, I never went near the genitalia (if I did, I've no recollection). In both cases, it was straight friends. When I 'snapped' out of it, I realized I shouldn't be doing what I was doing and immediately left. But during a drunken haze, it's almost as if I didn't really know what I was doing until I 'snapped' out of it. In both cases, both guys never said anything about it. We have stayed friends since etc. But, in the back of my head, I always wonder whether what I did on those two occasions is actually a sexual offensive act. 
I'm not hear to receive lawyers advice. I'd just like you to help me understand my actions in their proper context. 
Thank you.

eeguy

No

xabi

That’s a sexual offense in my eyes.

Tenigate

It's not rape but definitely a form of predatory behaviour and sexual assault... What were you expecting to hear?

On the other hand, no harm done. If you still have an attraction to straight men, or you're not able to control your impulses when drunk, i reckon you should seek professional help.

Otherwise, learn from your mistakes and move on.

splinter65

I think if your doing these things when your drunk, then you definitley need to stop drinking before something very serious happens.
You behaviour was inapproprite and borderline predatory on both these occasions and you need to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

chickenmoscow

The people in question didn't take it personally at all. In fact, one found it humerus and the other expected it from why I was attracted to him. They literally didn't consider it predatory, more like drunken stupid behavior. One guy even found it flattering. I'm not justifying it as it shouldn't have happened in either case.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Not rape but you might have a drink-related issue.

Tenigate

chickenmoscow wrote: »

The people in question didn't take it personally at all. In fact, one found it humerus and the other expected it from why I was attracted to him. They literally didn't consider it predatory, more like drunken stupid behavior. One guy even found it flattering. I'm not justifying it as it shouldn't have happened in either case.

It was stupid drunkenly behaviour. And sure, some might find it funny. Lucky you.

That's not the advice you sought. You asked was it rape. It wasn't.

But the acts you committed were not consensual and your behaviour was predatory.

xabi

chickenmoscow wrote: »

The people in question didn't take it personally at all. In fact, one found it humerus and the other expected it from why I was attracted to him. They literally didn't consider it predatory, more like drunken stupid behavior. One guy even found it flattering. I'm not justifying it as it shouldn't have happened in either case.

Then count yourself lucky, if you did it to me you wouldn’t be so lucky.

odyssey06

Guilty of sexual assault.

Thats the verdict I would vote for if I am on jury for these incidents.

You need to take responsibility for your actions before it ends up in court.

dellas1979

chickenmoscow wrote: »

drunken stupid behavior.

Did you break any laws? According to your story, no. But it is very borderline. Do you understand? Drunk or not, you own your behaviour and what you did.

Bordering molesting someone? Yes.

Were you acting weird and predatory? Yes.

You are making moves on people who are asleep (and youre drunk), thats pretty creepy. The person is not consciously aware of what is going on. You are taking a decision and choice away from them.

It's off the rocker to get a kick from this, drunk or not (what is the pay off/the reward in doing this? Is the feeling excitement?).

Youve repeated the inappropriate behaviour, so do you want to do something about it, or have it become a pattern?

chickenmoscow

xabi wrote: »

chickenmoscow wrote: »

The people in question didn't take it personally at all. In fact, one found it humerus and the other expected it from why I was attracted to him. They literally didn't consider it predatory, more like drunken stupid behavior. One guy even found it flattering. I'm not justifying it as it shouldn't have happened in either case.

Then count yourself lucky, if you did it to me you wouldn’t be so lucky.

I don't consider myself lucky. If I did, I wouldn't be here many years later reflecting on it.
Perhaps I was "lucky". At the same time though, I feel that I wasn't conscious or aware of what I was doing. I "awoke" in these situations and, once it dawned on me, I quickly left. I in no way intended to exploit a situation. Blackening out and doing things I wasn't aware is not something I'm proud of.

chickenmoscow

dellas1979 wrote: »

chickenmoscow wrote: »

drunken stupid behavior.

Did you break any laws? According to your story, no. But it is very boarderline. Do you understand? Drunk or not, you own your behaviour and what you did.

Bordering molesting someone? Yes.

Were you acting weird and predatory? Yes.

You are making moves on people who are asleep (and youre drunk), thats pretty creepy. The person is not consciously aware of what is going on. You are taking a decision and choice away from them.

It's off the rocker to get a kick from this, drunk or not (if that's what the pay off is).

Youve repeated the inappropriate behaviour, so do you want to do something about it, or have it become a pattern?

It has only happened on those two occasions. Nothing has happened since.

Samuel T. Cogley

Both would be sexual assault, seek help on the drink side of things and don't let the label bother you. There is no assault with consent*.

*assuming the person can give consent.

dellas1979

chickenmoscow wrote: »

It has only happened on those two occasions. Nothing has happened since.

Another excuse. "Only happened twice. I was drunk....."

Once is a mistake. Twice is becoming a pattern.

You either start to learn and take responsibility for feeling up people who are asleep, and figure out why you do it/want to do it (what is the pay off?), or keeping going.

I'd be beyond horrified if a friend of mine did that to me. Thats not a friend, its taking advantage of someone's state. That is not right. No matter if your friends laughed it off or not.

How would you like if you were asleep and someone unwelcome started feeling you up? Really. Does that give you a kick? Is this where its coming from? You can answer those questions yourself. But you'll have to dig a bit deeper to understand why you are doing this.

rob316

Not a rapist but I advise you stay off the booze if you can't keep your hands and perversions to yourself. Lucky your friends are understanding id smash 7 shades of **** out of ya.

xabi

chickenmoscow wrote: »

It has only happened on those two occasions. Nothing has happened since.

Then let it go and move on. Have a look at your drinking habits.

chickenmoscow

dellas1979 wrote: »

chickenmoscow wrote: »

It has only happened on those two occasions. Nothing has happened since.

Another excuse. "Only happened twice. I was drunk....."

Once is a mistake. Twice is becoming a pattern.

You either start to learn and take responsibility for feeling up people who are asleep, and figure out why you do it/want to do it (what is the pay off?), or keeping going.

I'd be beyond horrified if a friend of mine did that to me. Thats not a friend, its taking advantage of someone. No matter if your friends laughed it off or not.

I completely understand. If the shoe were on the other foot, I'd be equally horrified.
The dilemma I'm having is this - yes, I drank alcohol to excess and need to take responsibility for that. But when people 'black out' and literally become robots who are unaware of their actions, to what extent are they responsible for the acts they commit? For example, imagine if someone blacked out and jumped off a bridge. Ordinarily, they wouldn't do that as they understand how unreasonable it is but in extreme circumstances when they're out of their mind, how do we apportion guilt for a) the alcohol they consumed (100% in my view) and b) the acts they commit (which they're unaware of).

lubie76

I would say borderline assault but as it it was unintentional due to alcohol and the fact that your friends didn’t hold it against you, they must know it’s not in your character so don’t beat yourself up over it.

I’m not sure how your drinking habits are now but I would be very concerned about blacking our and waking up in situations when you don’t know how you got there. It could have been a lot worse if you had attempted on another person.

Stay safe

Samuel T. Cogley

chickenmoscow wrote: »

I completely understand. If the shoe were on the other foot, I'd be equally horrified.
The dilemma I'm having is this - yes, I drank alcohol to excess and need to take responsibility for that. But when people 'black out' and literally become robots who are unaware of their actions, to what extent are they responsible for the acts they commit? For example, imagine if someone blacked out and jumped off a bridge. Ordinarily, they wouldn't do that as they understand how unreasonable it is but in extreme circumstances when they're out of their mind, how do we apportion guilt for a) the alcohol they consumed (100% in my view) and b) the acts they commit (which they're unaware of).

Legally as a man you're responsible.

dellas1979

chickenmoscow wrote: »

I completely understand. If the shoe were on the other foot, I'd be equally horrified.
The dilemma I'm having is this - yes, I drank alcohol to excess and need to take responsibility for that. But when people 'black out' and literally become robots who are unaware of their actions, to what extent are they responsible for the acts they commit?

A person is responsible for their own behaviour. And all their behaviour. Whether drunk or not.

Put you in front of a judge for sex assaulting someone, alcohol wouldnt be considered an excuse for bad behaviour.

There are circumstances where someone has a break from reality/mental issues. That is different than to choosing to get drunk, to where you pass out, or dont know what youre doing.

chickenmoscow

To those individuals who say I'm guilty of sexual assault, are you saying I should walk into a station and admit my crime? If that's what I need to do, I'm willing to do it.

Samuel T. Cogley

chickenmoscow wrote: »

To those individuals who say I'm guilty of sexual assault, are you saying I should walk into a station and admit my crime? If that's what I need to do, I'm willing to do it.

No don't be silly - just get help for your drinking. More people than care to admit it have probably been guilty of sexual assault. You can sexually assault someone without touching them. Without a report you're probably doing more harm to your 'victims' than good.

Ursus Horribilis

chickenmoscow wrote: »

To those individuals who say I'm guilty of sexual assault, are you saying I should walk into a station and admit my crime? If that's what I need to do, I'm willing to do it.

Melodramatic much?

This can't be for real, this thread. You know as well as anyone else that you're not a rapist.

splinter65

chickenmoscow wrote: »

To those individuals who say I'm guilty of sexual assault, are you saying I should walk into a station and admit my crime? If that's what I need to do, I'm willing to do it.

No. That would be ridiculous. And you definitely don’t need to beat yourself up about it.
But you need to be wary of getting into situations where this could happen again, in particular getting so drunk that you can’t control yourself, or you “black out” and “come round “ to find yourself taking advantage of someone’s “inertness”.
That’s not acceptable. It can very dangerous for you too.
Not everyman will appreciate being touched like that uninvited, gay or straight.

chickenmoscow

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

chickenmoscow wrote: »

To those individuals who say I'm guilty of sexual assault, are you saying I should walk into a station and admit my crime? If that's what I need to do, I'm willing to do it.

Melodramatic much?

This can't be for real, this thread. You know as well as anyone else that you're not a rapist.

How is it melodramatic? We've heard legitimate opinions on both sides - some say yes, some say no. Sexual offence is a crime, whether we like it or not. Yes - the circumstances I've outlined aren't 'black and white', but that doesn't excuse my behavior. The fact there isn't universal consensus on my circumstances reflects the confusion I have about this matter. To what extent do 'sexual assault' and 'rape' overlap? It's a legitimate question. Both involve sexual activity, both involve consent. The situations I've outlined tick both boxes.

Tenigate

chickenmoscow wrote: »

To those individuals who say I'm guilty of sexual assault, are you saying I should walk into a station and admit my crime? If that's what I need to do, I'm willing to do it.

No one's telling you to do that. I wouldn't!

I think you need to drop the "I was drunk and not responsible for my actions". You did it twice. Once is an accident.
So what's changed? Have you worked through your issues that caused this behaviour, have you stopped getting blackout drunk, or has the opportunity just not arisen since?

odyssey06

A black out doesnt mean you are no longer responsible for your actions.

It means your inhibitions and sense of self control are gone. It means you are not forming new memories.

You put yourself into that state... you are morally responsible for what you do in that state.

chickenmoscow

Tenigate wrote: »

chickenmoscow wrote: »

To those individuals who say I'm guilty of sexual assault, are you saying I should walk into a station and admit my crime? If that's what I need to do, I'm willing to do it.

No one's telling you to do that. I wouldn't!

I think you need to drop the "I was drunk and not responsible for my actions". You did it twice. Once is an accident.
So what's changed? Have you worked through your issues that caused this behaviour, have you stopped getting blackout drunk, or has the opportunity just not arisen since?

When these incidents arose, I was 18-22 years old or so and was irresponsible with my drinking. Since then, I've 'matured' and such situations haven't arisen (even in cases where I could easily have taken advantage, but I didn't).

Tenigate

chickenmoscow wrote: »

. To what extent do 'sexual assault' and 'rape' overlap?

Rape is sexual assault.
But rape also involves penetration.

odyssey06

And remember if you ever become famous prepare to be Al Portered.

Batgurl

You aren’t a rapist but you are incredibly lucky.

What you did was sexual assault. No two ways about it.

The reason you aren’t guilty of a crime is not because of anything you did but because your victims are choosing not to persue it. If they felt differently, and wanted to chase assault charges, you would be guilty of assault and would be rightly charged with the crime.

In terms of taking ownership for your actions, as an adult if you know you act inappropriately when you drink too much, you have a responsibility not to get blackout drunk if that’s how you react.

Bambi985

chickenmoscow wrote: »

I completely understand. If the shoe were on the other foot, I'd be equally horrified.
The dilemma I'm having is this - yes, I drank alcohol to excess and need to take responsibility for that. But when people 'black out' and literally become robots who are unaware of their actions, to what extent are they responsible for the acts they commit? For example, imagine if someone blacked out and jumped off a bridge. Ordinarily, they wouldn't do that as they understand how unreasonable it is but in extreme circumstances when they're out of their mind, how do we apportion guilt for a) the alcohol they consumed (100% in my view) and b) the acts they commit (which they're unaware of).

You are responsible for your actions and actions have consequences, regardless of what level of consciousness you were at when committing those actions.

If you jump off a bridge whilst drunk off your trolley, you likely end up dead. If you sexually assault a person whilst drunk off your trolley, you are potentially facing charges. Intoxication to the point of black-out doesn't serve as a buffer against those consequences or against your level of responsibility for them.

That being said, it's probably advisable to not get drunk to the point of blackout if you're prone to such drunken behaviour.

Neyite

Mod:

Closed thread - this is getting too much like legal advice, which isn't allowed on Boards.