what paths to post primary teacher?

bovril

I am an Information Technology professional with an honours Degree in IT and 17 years industry experience in IT. I currently work as a senior software engineer. I have read recently that there is a shortage of post primary teachers in the STEM subjects. What are my options for a career change to be a post primary teacher mainly in technology subjects?
I have looked at the PMEs from Trinity, DCU and UCD. None of them provide options with subjects around technology.
Is a two year PME the only way to qualify?

Exiled1

First you might check the status of your degree with the Teaching Council. They will tell you if you have the subject qualification.
No way past a two year PME or UK equivalent course for teacher training.

ec18

Exiled1 wrote: »

First you might check the status of your degree with the Teaching Council. They will tell you if you have the subject qualification.
No way past a two year PME or UK equivalent course for teacher training.

They won't actually, they'll tell you they only about subject qualification after you've done the PME

bovril

Exiled1 wrote: »

No way past a two year PME or UK equivalent course for teacher training.

Sorry or the silly question I am very new to this. I understand that as a post primary teacher you teach two subjects so assuming my degree is ok for teaching IT I would do a PME in my "other" subject? Are there any part time options for the PME? Is Hibernia the only online option?

dory

bovril wrote: »

Sorry or the silly question I am very new to this. I understand that as a post primary teacher you teach two subjects so assuming my degree is ok for teaching IT I would do a PME in my "other" subject? Are there any part time options for the PME? Is Hibernia the only online option?

What do you mean by teaching IT? The new Computer Science course? A lot of schools do Computers but it's taught by any teacher who's good at computers. The new CS course will be taken on by very few schools initially. It's a gamble really. You'll be doing the two year PME, paying €10,000 and hoping there's a large uptake of that new course. I know my school won't, we've too many subjects as it is. I saw a job advertised for the new Politics and Society course today. 7 hours. That's all CS would be to you as well. So that's 7/22's of a salary. You really need another subject.

That said, the government might do something about the fact that hardly anyone is going to be qualitied to teach Computer Science and another subject. Maybe you could do top up modules for maths?

doc_17

bovril wrote: »

Sorry or the silly question I am very new to this. I understand that as a post primary teacher you teach two subjects so assuming my degree is ok for teaching IT I would do a PME in my "other" subject? Are there any part time options for the PME? Is Hibernia the only online option?

The PME doesn’t teach you another subject. Your degree is where you learn subjects. The PME teaches you how to teach. In theory.

Sesame

I posted a similar question as the OP. Im an IT professional who always harboured a desire to teach, and after seeing about coding coming part of the curriculum, now may be the time. I have much to offer in the way of industry experience and real world application.
To learn to teach appears to require us to take two year out of work to take a full time course, as far as I know.
Not sure how they will intice IT people with that proposal. I can't take a two year unpaid break. Who can?
An online course or intensive block course with essential on the job (paid) experience should be an option, if there is a crisis in finding these teachers.

evolving_doors

bovril wrote: »

I am an Information Technology professional with an honours Degree in IT and 17 years industry experience in IT. I currently work as a senior software engineer. I have read recently that there is a shortage of post primary teachers in the STEM subjects. What are my options for a career change to be a post primary teacher mainly in technology subjects?
I have looked at the PMEs from Trinity, DCU and UCD. None of them provide options with subjects around technology.
Is a two year PME the only way to qualify?

Is technology a subject?

Anyway, see if any of these subjects are desirable to you. And then see the degree requirements.
http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/en/Publications/Registration/Documents/Curricular-Subject-Requirments-after-January-2017.pdf

evolving_doors

Sesame wrote: »

I posted a similar question as the OP. Im an IT professional who always harboured a desire to teach, and after seeing about coding coming part of the curriculum, now may be the time. I have much to offer in the way of industry experience and real world application.
To learn to teach appears to require us to take two year out of work to take a full time course, as far as I know.
Not sure how they will intice IT people with that proposal. I can't take a two year unpaid break. Who can?
An online course or intensive block course with essential on the job (paid) experience should be an option, if there is a crisis in finding these teachers.

There isn't really a crisis in finding IT teachers. The new syllabus will be taken up very slowly.

Paid experience whilst on teaching practice... why would they need to do this when the department of education are saying there is no overall problem with teaching supply?
I'd agree with the principle though. Nurses and Garda get something whilst training. Teachers have to pay extra to train.

rainbowtrout

Sesame wrote: »

I posted a similar question as the OP. Im an IT professional who always harboured a desire to teach, and after seeing about coding coming part of the curriculum, now may be the time. I have much to offer in the way of industry experience and real world application.
To learn to teach appears to require us to take two year out of work to take a full time course, as far as I know.
Not sure how they will intice IT people with that proposal. I can't take a two year unpaid break. Who can?
An online course or intensive block course with essential on the job (paid) experience should be an option, if there is a crisis in finding these teachers.

It already exists through Hibernia. As for payment as a student teacher - forget it. Remember you are taking over another teacher's classes when you go into a school as a student teacher. They are already getting paid for the job, the department isn't going to pay two people for the same job.

bovril

doc_17 wrote: »

The PME doesn’t teach you another subject. Your degree is where you learn subjects. The PME teaches you how to teach. In theory.

I was under the impression post primary teachers taught two subjects. I wrongly assumed then that when doing your PME you would chose a subject other than your primary degree. I have heard of teachers teaching say maths and french. How are they qualified to teach both subjects? Is it that they are qualified to teach from the PME, and then they study the curriculum for the other subjects and apply their knowledge?

bovril

Sesame wrote: »

I posted a similar question as the OP. Im an IT professional who always harboured a desire to teach, and after seeing about coding coming part of the curriculum, now may be the time. I have much to offer in the way of industry experience and real world application.
To learn to teach appears to require us to take two year out of work to take a full time course, as far as I know.
Not sure how they will intice IT people with that proposal. I can't take a two year unpaid break. Who can?
An online course or intensive block course with essential on the job (paid) experience should be an option, if there is a crisis in finding these teachers.

I did not see your question previously sorry. It's very confusing for me in that I am reading in the media that there are shortages and that there is a new drive to teach IT to kids but there doesn't seem to be a way in from the industry yet. I thought I was reading things wrong when I saw 10k and two years full time course. I do appreciate that I would need to learn how to teach etc and that it's not something that could be learnt in a few months but I thought there would be another path to teaching for people working in other industries.

bovril

evolving_doors wrote: »

Is technology a subject?

Anyway, see if any of these subjects are desirable to you. And then see the degree requirements.
http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/en/Publications/Registration/Documents/Curricular-Subject-Requirments-after-January-2017.pdf

I have seen this document and on page 21 it lists Computer Science/ Information Technology as a subject and the degree requirements. My degree would cover the first few points. The third point is to do a PME. From what I can see from looking at UCD, DCU, Trinity etc there is no option to pick Computer Science/IT as a PME subject. There lies my confusion.

bovril

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It already exists through Hibernia. .

From what I can see with Hibernia it is still a two year course so it's not very intensive if it's the same time as the other full time PMEs.

rainbowtrout

bovril wrote: »

I was under the impression post primary teachers taught two subjects. I wrongly assumed then that when doing your PME you would chose a subject other than your primary degree. I have heard of teachers teaching say maths and french. How are they qualified to teach both subjects? Is it that they are qualified to teach from the PME, and then they study the curriculum for the other subjects and apply their knowledge?

No. They do an Arts degree in two subjects. Most teachers in Ireland have two subjects because that’s what they study in their degree. Some only have one, and that makes them less employable because they don’t have as much to offer a school so they will struggle to fill their timetable.

The PME, as already stated in another post is a teaching qualification does not qualify you in a subject, your degree does. The PME qualifies you to teach

rainbowtrout

bovril wrote: »

I have seen this document and on page 21 it lists Computer Science/ Information Technology as a subject and the degree requirements. My degree would cover the first few points. The third point is to do a PME. From what I can see from looking at UCD, DCU, Trinity etc there is no option to pick Computer Science/IT as a PME subject. There lies my confusion.

Computer Science is being brought in as a leaving cert subject this September on a pilot scheme. That’s probably why it’s not on their list. No one would have been training for a non existent subject up to now

rainbowtrout

bovril wrote: »

From what I can see with Hibernia it is still a two year course so it's not very intensive if it's the same time as the other full time PMEs.

They have to do the same material as other PMEs. I presume it’s no different to doing a degree through open university. If you are working during the day you’ll have to do the necessary work for the course at night.

Sesame

I knew that coding didn't have a teacher shortage yet, it's maths and Science teachers that are in short supply. I forgot to add that in my post and that I would like to teach Maths and IT in my future career. But its a long way off, if ever and I'm not looking to leave industry at the moment.
I understand your point about it being impossible to pay a student teacher while the other teacher watches. What about using student teachers in rotation as resource teachers, would that work?
A teacher could get resource experience (and pay) which may not fit the bill of experience exactly but they would get to try out their new theories and practice leanings on real children. And the children would get exposed to some new fresh ideas and as far as I understand it, resource doesn't have the same need for continuation of teacher as mainstream. Its often job shared anyway or split between schools with part time posts.

rainbowtrout

Sesame wrote: »

I knew that coding didn't have a teacher shortage yet, it's maths and Science teachers that are in short supply. I forgot to add that in my post and that I would like to teach Maths and IT in my future career. But its a long way off, if ever and I'm not looking to leave industry at the moment.
I understand your point about it being impossible to pay a student teacher while the other teacher watches. What about using student teachers in rotation as resource teachers, would that work?
A teacher could get resource experience (and pay) which may not fit the bill of experience exactly but they would get to try out their new theories and practice leanings on real children. And the children would get exposed to some new fresh ideas and as far as I understand it, resource doesn't have the same need for continuation of teacher as mainstream. Its often job shared anyway or split between schools with part time posts.

Student teachers are out on day release to schools or on block release and attend college the rest of the year. It would be impossible to timetable lectures if some students were always missing.

evolving_doors

Sesame wrote: »

I knew that coding didn't have a teacher shortage yet, it's maths and Science teachers that are in short supply. I forgot to add that in my post and that I would like to teach Maths and IT in my future career. But its a long way off, if ever and I'm not looking to leave industry at the moment.
I understand your point about it being impossible to pay a student teacher while the other teacher watches. What about using student teachers in rotation as resource teachers, would that work?
A teacher could get resource experience (and pay) which may not fit the bill of experience exactly but they would get to try out their new theories and practice leanings on real children. And the children would get exposed to some new fresh ideas and as far as I understand it, resource doesn't have the same need for continuation of teacher as mainstream. Its often job shared anyway or split between schools with part time posts.

Resource teaching isn't like 'teaching lite'.
'Resource teachers' are the same as teachers. Same qualification requirements, same people sometimes! In fact a lot of regular teachers may have some resource classes on their timetable. It's every much a full on teaching job as regular teaching.
Although I noticed lately the dept. is starting to use the term 'special needs teachers' as if they are a separate entity, hence why confusion is created... teachers are teachers (but that's an argument for another thread).

As regards maths, I could take an educated guess that you wouldn't fulfill the requirements going by a Computer Science degree. Have a look at the maths section of that document.

Essentially the system is geared toward arts students (and maybe science) who jump from the degree into the pme. Once you move away from the non-BA profile then its difficult to match what the teaching council requires.

mtoutlemonde

evolving_doors wrote: »

Resource teaching isn't like 'teaching lite'.
'Resource teachers' are the same as teachers. Same qualification requirements, same people sometimes! In fact a lot of regular teachers may have some resource classes on their timetable. It's every much a full on teaching job as regular teaching.
Although I noticed lately the dept. is starting to use the term 'special needs teachers' as if they are a separate entity, hence why confusion is created... teachers are teachers (but that's an argument for another thread).

As regards maths, I could take an educated guess that you wouldn't fulfill the requirements going by a Computer Science degree. Have a look at the maths section of that document.

Essentially the system is geared toward arts students (and maybe science) who jump from the degree into the pme. Once you move away from the non-BA profile then its difficult to match what the teaching council requires.

Yes OP, you will only register for IT/ICT - I am the holder of a similar degree and as it's under the faculty of engineering - it's not deemed adequate for the teaching of maths. I added another subject (one of the sought after ones) and have never taught IT/Computers since I completed my dip a good few years ago.

I would be thinking very carefully before leaving your well paid permanent career to train and look around for 'hours' in maths. As said previously, coding is only being rolled out next year and that will be a small amount of schools.

If you want to experience teaching, why not approach a school and see if they would be interested in having coding as a subject for TY before committing your time and a lot of money into a teaching qualification. Best of luck anyway. PM me if you want to.

leadersway

Hi all. Could i ask a related question please. When transferring from another public sector job into dept of education and teaching (with necessary qualifications to teach) does one hold their salary or do you drop to a starting point on the teaching scale. Thanks for your help.

rainbowtrout

leadersway wrote: »

Hi all. Could i ask a related question please. When transferring from another public sector job into dept of education and teaching (with necessary qualifications to teach) does one hold their salary or do you drop to a starting point on the teaching scale. Thanks for your help.

Depends on the job. You would normally start at the bottom, but if say you had worked as an accountant and had retrained as a business/accounting teacher you can apply for your years of service to be recognised for points on the scale.

grainne.obrien

As the computer subject is new for leaving cert there are no teaching methodologies for it as of yet in any of the PMEs ( I rang Hibernia and Teaching Council yesterday)
So the teaching council says that you don't need to have studied a methodology for computer studies in order to teach it, as it is none defined yet.

You do need to have PME. So to get on a PME you will have to have 1 or 2 methodologies to study. Her advice yesterday was to first get onto one of the master courses, fill out the subject assessment forms for maths and computing. They will then notify me during the first year what credits I'm sort for teaching maths and I can top them up via open university or take extra modules if going to UCD.

As my degree is Computer Systems from UL from 2005 it does not have the credits associated with it so my subject assessment form has to include certified module descriptions from UL.

I'm trying to decide between Hibernia and UCD. I'd rather UCD but if you don't get paid for the school days it's no good. Anyone know if you get paid for hte 2 half days and one full day?

Gráinne

Alqua

grainne.obrien wrote: »

I'm trying to decide between Hibernia and UCD. I'd rather UCD but if you don't get paid for the school days it's no good. Anyone know if you get paid for hte 2 half days and one full day?

You don't get paid on any teacher training course, this was never the case (unless you happen to pick up some paid subbing while on placement in a school, think you can provisionally register with the TC for this).

mtoutlemonde

grainne.obrien wrote: »

As the computer subject is new for leaving cert there are no teaching methodologies for it as of yet in any of the PMEs ( I rang Hibernia and Teaching Council yesterday)
So the teaching council says that you don't need to have studied a methodology for computer studies in order to teach it, as it is none defined yet.

You do need to have PME. So to get on a PME you will have to have 1 or 2 methodologies to study. Her advice yesterday was to first get onto one of the master courses, fill out the subject assessment forms for maths and computing. They will then notify me during the first year what credits I'm sort for teaching maths and I can top them up via open university or take extra modules if going to UCD.

As my degree is Computer Systems from UL from 2005 it does not have the credits associated with it so my subject assessment form has to include certified module descriptions from UL.

I'm trying to decide between Hibernia and UCD. I'd rather UCD but if you don't get paid for the school days it's no good. Anyone know if you get paid for hte 2 half days and one full day?

Gráinne

One of my subjects is Computer Studies/ICT (as the TC state on my registration) and when I did my dip a few years ago, we did have a methodology - albeit two full days but the same amount of time I had for my other subject. Was it beneficial - absolutely not but that was due to the incompetence of the lecturer and he doing his own thing. Two of my inspections were IT classes and I submitted the the same plan as my other subject.

With relation to maths, definitely find out now what you need and do them while you are in university as it will be far less expensive than doing it with the Open University etc. If you do get a job in the future (ICT only being offered in a number of schools so it will be a while before you vacancies arising) and are given maths classes to teach, you will qualify for the free maths programme offered in UL but again how long will that last?

I don't understand what you are asking in your third point? You don't get paid for school placement. If you study with Hibernia, you can keep your job and do the dip as opposed to returning to full time education.

If you have other questions, don't hesitate.

grainne.obrien

Thanks mtoutlemonde

I'm going to apply to the teaching council and let them tell me what I'm short in maths.

I'll apply to hibernia as well, but by what they were telling me the last day I won't get on course as I don't have 60 credits in the maths yet.

I might have to go do one or two modules in open university next year and then apply again to Hibernia. Wish it wasn't the case. I just want to start it all now.

Does anyone know if UCD would accept me onto the PME while still studying to get the credits in maths? Not that I can afford full time anyway.

Thanks,
Gráinne

rainbowtrout

grainne.obrien wrote: »

Thanks mtoutlemonde

I'm going to apply to the teaching council and let them tell me what I'm short in maths.

I'll apply to hibernia as well, but by what they were telling me the last day I won't get on course as I don't have 60 credits in the maths yet.

I might have to go do one or two modules in open university next year and then apply again to Hibernia. Wish it wasn't the case. I just want to start it all now.

Does anyone know if UCD would accept me onto the PME while still studying to get the credits in maths? Not that I can afford full time anyway.

Thanks,
Grne

No, they won't, not in a million years. It would leave them wide open to all sorts of challenges if they let a person go through the PME to qualify as a maths teacher (or any other subject) that doesn't hold a maths qualification.

They cannot send you into a school to teach maths when you don't have a maths qualification. You must meet the subject qualification requirements to register for that subject on the PME in all colleges. There are no shortcuts.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No, they won't, not in a million years. It would leave them wide open to all sorts of challenges if they let a person go through the PME to qualify as a maths teacher (or any other subject) that doesn't hold a maths qualification.

They cannot send you into a school to teach maths when you don't have a maths qualification. You must meet the subject qualification requirements to register for that subject on the PME in all colleges. There are no shortcuts.

UCD used to though. When did that change?

I was told (albeit 4 years ago) that the college is not duty bound to assess everyone's degree? I thought it was up to you to seek full validation from the TC.

rainbowtrout

evolving_doors wrote: »

UCD used to though. When did that change?

I was told (albeit 4 years ago) that the college is not duty bound to assess everyone's degree? I thought it was up to you to seek full validation from the TC.

UCD requirements:

When applying for a place on the Professional Master of Education, the PME
Applicant will be required to make a formal declaration of studies undertaken in
at least one post-primary curricular subject area. He/she will be required to declare
that they
a. Hold an Honours Bachelor Degree NFQ Level 8 (or equivalent) carrying at
least 180 ECTS Credits.
b. Have studied the requisite number of ECTS credits in the subject(s) they
wish to have recorded on the Register of Teachers e.g. 60/80/90 ECTS
credits.
c. Have completed at least 10 ECTS credits at third year degree level or higher
d. Have met all the specific detailed requirements of the Teaching Council in
terms of mandatory areas of study
In all cases (a) – (d) the PME Applicant will be required to identify the specific
module/course code where requirements have been met.

The OP can probably register for IT, but not for maths.

GalwayGrrrrrl

Just thinking outside the box here- would the OP be able to teach in a further education college or on PLC courses without having a PME? There are lots of computer courses advertised by these types of colleges so that could be a way of trying teaching without a full commitment.
Also OP if you want to try out your skills on real kids you can volunteer at coder dojo clubs. Free coding classes for kids, lots around ireland so might be one near you.

mtoutlemonde

It is an applicants responsibility to ensure that they qualify for at least one subject so the university don't care. I think you have to check your subject and tick a box confirming that you can register. This wasn't there when I applied a few years ago hence there was an engineering student who wouldn't register for any subject so it's taking PAC/the university out of the firing line when the student can't register. I did the dip not fully registered for my other subject but I was doing further study and the education department were aware so I taught my other subject during TP. It's a long time since I looked at the registration for the PME.