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Government Expenditure - where is it all going?

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    #32
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    Tribunals and other legal nonsensical investigations get a lot and the pensions there remember that's not just to old folks that's the clowns like Bifo, Bertie(still my hero :p) and the others that ruined this country.


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    #33
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    A big problem is the amount of low income earners who pay no income tax and simultaneously foreign corporations who pay very little tax. Result? The squeezed middle. Social inequality? You're god damned right - too many net recepients, not enough net contributors.

    The cost of pensions is only going up - everyone needs to put the shoulder to the wheel. We need to dismantle the entitlement culture to protect core services.

    As for every aspect of the public service being in a constant state of crisis - you have a lot of people with their face in the trough or suckling the teat.


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    #34
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    GDP is vastly inflated in Ireland it is not a credible measure here.

    For cuts I would start with all expenditure used to ramp rents and property prices since 2010. Prices are high enough now, they should not need continous govt support.

    What measure would you suggest we use then?

    How would this work? Are your suggesting making thousands homeless?


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    #35
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    Our GDP is unique and inaccurate of the true reflection due to the shell companies
    enricoh wrote: »
    Ah, good aul gdp, so beloved of unions n quangos in Ireland when looking for more loot!
    They never mention the leprechaun economics article that summed it up perfectly. Strangely enough!!
    You're both missing the point. GDP in Ireland may be inflated by transfer pricing undertaken for tax avoidance reasons, but this has been so for a long time. What matters in this context is the trend; public expenditure has been steadily declining as a percentage of GDP. The significance of this is not altered by the fact that GDP is overstated. It contradicts Richards (evidence-free, we note) assertion that public expenditure is "out of control". It seems to be quite well controlled.


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    #36
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Cina wrote: »
    Pensions are the real issue here, almost €8bn. Yikes. Especially with ever improving health services and increasing average life expectancy.
    What would the right figure be, so?


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    #37
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,391 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    What measure would you suggest we use then?

    How would this work? Are your suggesting making thousands homeless?

    Measure the state's income tax receipts versus it's debt. Same as your income multiple for a mortgage, would your credit provider be happy for you to keep increasing your debt continously when your income is relatively fixed?

    How would reducing state support for high rents and property prices from 'crisis' levels lead to more people being homeless. This sounds alarmist and extreme. Will they demolish the properties or something.


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    #38
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Would love to see businesses starting to put the VAT take on transaction receipts in shops/fast food restaurants etc. The government will never enforce it because it doesn't look good on them but it will give the consumer a good note on how much tax we actually pay.


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    #39
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Measure the state's income tax receipts versus it's debt. Same as your income multiple for a mortgage, would your credit provider be happy for you to keep increasing your debt continously when your income is relatively fixed?

    How would reducing state support for high rents and property prices from 'crisis' levels lead to more people being homeless. This sounds alarmist and extreme. Will they demolish the properties or something.
    The Government has collected €19.4 billion in tax for the first five months of 2017, slightly below the Department of Finance’s projected total of €19.6 billion, but up nearly 3 per cent or €550 million on last year.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/tax-revenue-undershoots-government-target-again-1.3105833
    Tax revenues are 5.8% higher than at the same point last year - an increase of €2.6 billion.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/1204/924893-government-tax-revenues-back-on-target-in-november/

    Governments don't pay debts they inflate them away.

    If you stop paying rent allowcance people will have to move out


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    #40
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,391 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/tax-revenue-undershoots-government-target-again-1.3105833

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/1204/924893-government-tax-revenues-back-on-target-in-november/

    Governments don't pay debts they inflate them away.

    If you stop paying rent allowcance people will have to move out

    I would look towards the longer term trend myself. Rather than just using the previous 12 months for a baseline.

    It's awfully nice for the government to inflate away their problems. Is this while our wages are flat or near flat. Because some of us would take issue with negative real incomes amoung the working population.


    Nobody said that you stop paying rent allowance. I suggest that Noonan propped up the rents and house prices in the period 2011 to date. That stimulus is no longer required and landlords could be weaned off supports.


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    #41
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,614 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    How are things on Planet Right-Wing Fantasy, Richard? Here on Planet Earth, Irish government expenditure as a percentage of GDP has been declining year-on-year since 2010

    A convenient year to pick. What was the trend before the greatest financial crisis in nearly a century?

    Spending had to decrease to avoid bankruptcy. It needs to decrease still further to reflect income.


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    #42
    BillyBobBS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭BillyBobBS


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Yawn.

    Couldn't help yourself to try have a pop at varadkar in some way which is irrelevant to the discussion.

    It's not irrelevant. Varadkar is the CEO of Ireland, the buck stops with him and he is failing on every level.

    Yawn


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    #43
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    I would look towards the longer term trend myself. Rather than just using the previous 12 months for a baseline.

    It's awfully nice for the government to inflate away their problems. Is this while our wages are flat or near flat. Because some of us would take issue with negative real incomes amoung the working population.


    Nobody said that you stop paying rent allowance. I suggest that Noonan propped up the rents and house prices in the period 2011 to date. That stimulus is no longer required and landlords could be weaned off supports.
    How long term? 10 years? 20?

    What's you suggestion to counter flat wage growth? I one am a fan of lowering the cost of living.

    What exact supports are you referring to? Perhaps if you are more specific I would agree with you?


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    #44
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,391 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    How long term? 10 years? 20?

    What's you suggestion to counter flat wage growth? I one am a fan of lowering the cost of living.

    What exact supports are you referring to? Perhaps if you are more specific I would agree with you?

    The levels of rent allowance paid out, the soft treatment of buy to let landlords who are strategically defaulting, the cgt treatment of property assets, the beneficial tax treatments of reits, the lack of taxation on the hoarding of land, including land banks, the continuing concentration of jobs in Dublin, including the lack of a serious attempt by the government to decentralise govt jobs outside Dublin.

    There are plenty more things that can be done I'm sure.


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    #45
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Measure the state's income tax receipts versus it's debt. Same as your income multiple for a mortgage, would your credit provider be happy for you to keep increasing your debt continously when your income is relatively fixed?
    Yes, as long as your income was sufficient to allow you to service the increased mortgage. You only have a problem if you started right off at the beginning by borrowing the maximum loan that could be serviced with your income.

    (Which is where the analogy with government borrowing breaks down. Most new homebuyers do take out the largest mortgage that their income will support, or as near as dammit, and they can't borrrow more unless and until their income goes up. But very few governments are in this position.)


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    #46
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Nermal wrote: »
    A convenient year to pick. What was the trend before the greatest financial crisis in nearly a century?
    Richard Hillman's claim wasn't that spending was out of control before the greatest financial crisis in nearly a century; it was that it is out of control now. I don't see any evidence of this and, despite me having asked, he hasn't produced any. He hasn't even produced an argument, never mind a fact.


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