IT Article - ‘Collapse’ in numbers applying for teacher-training courses

deiseindublin

‘Collapse’ in numbers applying for teacher-training courses

Decline comes as mounting concern felt over impact on students of unqualified tutors

about 17 hours ago Updated: about 8 hours ago
Carl O'Brien

The survey noted that at primary level special needs teachers are being redeployed as class teachers.

Numbers applying for teacher-training courses have “collapsed” by more than 60 per cent over the past five years, new figures show.

The dramatic fall-off comes as concern mounts over the educational impact on students of teacher shortages in schools across key subjects.

Surveys and reports compiled by school management organisations and teacher unions – seen by The Irish Times – state that Leaving Cert students in some schools are being left with unqualified tutors for subjects such as maths and Irish for months on end.

At primary level, they note that special needs teachers are being redeployed as class teachers, resulting in reduced access to special education among pupils with additional needs.

In some cases, classes which do not have a full-time teacher are being taught by individuals with no qualifications, who may teach for a maximum of five days, under employment rules.

Substitute teachers
The Catholic Primary Schools Management Association – which represents about 2,800 primary schools – has found that 90 per cent of principals are having difficulties finding qualified or substitute teachers.

At second level, some voluntary secondary schools are now offering accommodation to applicants for key positions.

Shortages of teachers are most acute in subjects such as Irish, maths, European languages and science.

A report compiled by the Education and Training Board Ireland found that just one of four Irish teachers at one of its secondary schools was qualified to teach Irish.

The Association of Community and Comprehensive Schools, which represents 96 community and comprehensive schools, has also found in a survey that many of its schools are engaging unqualified personnel to teach key subjects.

It has found that there were no applicants for key positions, despite advertising and readvertising vacancies.

The Joint Managerial Body, which represents 374 voluntary secondary schools, says there has been “political drift” for too long over what it now a “crisis” facing many secondary schools.

One principal said: “Why is Irish a compulsory subject when it is almost impossible to find a substitute teacher for this subject?”

Schools also report curtailing sports, games and other extra-curricular activities due to shortages.

In response, a spokeswoman for Minister for Education Richard Bruton said more than 5,000 extra teachers have been hired since he was appointed.

“All of these positions have been filled or will be filled very shortly,” said the spokeswoman.

She acknowledged that some schools have reported shortages in recruiting teachers in specific subjects at post primary level.

The spokeswoman added that the Minister was considering a range of measures to resolve pinch points in certain subjects and that announcements on this were due shortly.

Worrying trend
Latest figures on applications for teaching-training courses at second level, in particular, however, show cause for concern.

The majority of applications are processed through the post-graduate applications centre.

The number of applications for these courses has fallen from 2,824 in 2011 to 1,068 last year, a 62 per cent drop.

Teacher unions say the trend is linked to a combination of factors such as difficulties for young teachers accessing full-time permanent posts and lower pay for new entrants.

The high cost of completing a new two-year professional master of education course – which has replaced the old one-year higher diploma – is also seen as a major issue.

The number of graduates has also fallen, down from 1,1116 to 818 over the same period, a drop of almost 30 per cent.

The department, however, noted that the salary of a newly qualified teacher straight out of college in January 2018 will be €35,958.

“This is a very competitive graduate salary,” said the spokeswoman.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/collapse-in-numbers-applying-for-teacher-training-courses-1.3347607?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

spurious

The chickens are coming home.

I love how out of touch with reality the Department 'spokeswoman' is.

happywithlife

Competitive salary my a**e
Not when you have "jobs" that are "hours" and hence only a fraction of that "competitive" salary
Totally out of touch.
Those 5000 "jobs " were only down to population growth anyway and in fact didn't keep pace with thst growth so class sizes have actually gotten worse

enricoh

All the whinging about new entrants pay by the unions is probably putting school leavers off applying. If they knew that they'd kick off on 36k in their early 20s I'd say a lot more would apply imo.

amacca

Chickens are definitely coming home to roost.

Its probably not as much a factor at the stage when you are considering entering teacher training or looking for a job but I'd imagine some potential applicants in the know (have teacher in the family etc) are looking at working conditions while you are actually doing the job fulltime/resourcing and so called "reforms" when making their decision to steer clear as well.

Thats even a factor in the UK with existing teachers who have been doing the job for 15/20 years are leaving as well due in large part to working conditions...I'd imagine its only a matter of time until that chicken comes home to roost here too.

Still I wouldn't expect those chickens to actually improve the depts approach ..particularly under Bruton.

doc_17

enricoh wrote: »

All the whinging about new entrants pay by the unions is probably putting school leavers off applying. If they knew that they'd kick off on 36k in their early 20s I'd say a lot more would apply imo.

36k after 6 years in college? And it’s 36k for those few who get a full time job for the whole year. You clearly don’t have a grasp of the situation.

But let’s look at your claim that those starting in 2018 would get 36k. They would have had to apply to a teacher training course in Nov 2014 in order to be qualified now to apply for that job. What was the starting salary for a full time teacher in Jan 2015? Because that’s what they were basing their decisions on. And would that have enticed them?

deiseindublin

Moot point about the €36k because nobody gets full hours. Not much point in getting 1/3 of a €36k wage and expecting to be able to pay rent. Lots are on even less hours.

Terri26

And this is the argument ASTI have been making for years. This is why we had Industrial Action. Unfortunately because we were alone in this we eventually succumbed to external and some internal pressure. We weren't doing it for the craic. Hopefully people realise this now. The working with the Government didn't work.

userb

Has anything been mentioned about advertising jobs at for example 9 hours for Irish etc....
Again this is not mentioned....

deiseindublin - exactly right

why is this point never highlighted, it has too be maybe people have actually wised up now.

happywithlife

Just checked Irish on education posts out if interest - in Dublin there us one 11 hrs two 16 hrs one 22 hrs and one 22.01 (not sure how but anyway)
One can barely manage in Dublin on the 22 hrs ! And if those are mat leave you're screwed over the holidays- doubt you'd get somewhere to rent short term so woukd need a relative to stay with or rent longer term but dunno how you'd pay for it

userb

It's shallow coverage from Media;

mtoutlemonde

I have said this for a while - we are getting more and more like the English system where the government have to give big bursaries to attract graduates into teaching. I can see the day when we have to have a stack of paperwork to do everyday before and after teaching.

From my experience of different schools and principals and the disrespect that is shown to applicants to jobs would be a major factor into staying away from teaching. The fact that you apply for a job and the principal does not have the decency to thank an applicant for applying and unfortunately they were unsuccessful. There will come a time when schools are biting the hands of applicants. The politics involved in getting work is also a major turn off.

The two year dip has had a major impact on applicants - who in there right mind would spend €12000 and two years hard slog to end up subbing for a few years or getting a CID for a small amount of hours where in reality, LPTs would be better off on the dole. I love the way the press give the €36000 starting salary - I wonder if a recent graduates were given a questionnaire, how many would be able to say that they were lucky enough to get 22 hours straight out of the dip - not many I would assume.

userb

I agree 100%

Also feel that media aren't examining this either- WHY?
Is it like this really?

dory

enricoh wrote: »

All the whinging about new entrants pay by the unions is probably putting school leavers off applying. If they knew that they'd kick off on 36k in their early 20s I'd say a lot more would apply imo.

Took me 6 years to start making that much. And I teach Irish. The subject they "can't get subs for". I didn't want to be a sub. Slogged it out in one school so I'd have a better chance of getting full hours. Graduated in 2012 and getting my full time CID next summer. :rolleyes:

I was second last year of one year Dip. No way in the world I would have done the 2 year.

evolving_doors

userb wrote: »

I agree 100%

Also feel that media aren't examining this either- WHY?
Is it like this really?

Media education correspondents can get nice cushy advisory rolls if they tow the party line.

Anyhow they'll bring in some 'jobsbridge' teachfirst initiative soon to firmly put the boot in.

And fempi hasn't gone away you know! so best keep on that mouldy green jersey you threw on 10 years ago and lie back and think of Ireland :pac:


All jokes aside, Having SNA's take classes on a long term basis though is scandalous.
Students should be just sent home, if that SNA isn't allowed look after the physical care needs of it's allocated pupil(s) then that's open to legal scrutiny of something happens.

The solution is simple.
Kill the 2 years and bring back the masters allowance once you commence teaching. This will allow for a better quality 'in the field' masters too.

Acknowledge the hours culture is NOT going to change, it's been a part of the system for the last 30+ years. Just help those starting out with decent sub work (aka abolish S&S).

mtoutlemonde

dory wrote: »

Took me 6 years to start making that much. And I teach Irish. The subject they "can't get subs for". I didn't want to be a sub. Slogged it out in one school so I'd have a better chance of getting full hours. Graduated in 2012 and getting my full time CID next summer. :rolleyes:

I was second last year of one year Dip. No way in the world I would have done the 2 year.

+1 for that - I didn't slog it out and put a serious investment into my education to be a casual sub whether it be long or short term. Just because you have a language doesn't mean you'll walk into a job - was talking to a person I did the dip with and still on the subbing scene - granted never out of work but nothing of their own. Congrats on getting your CID next year - I don't know if I'll ever get one but I'm so far in, I wouldn't know what else I could do.

mtoutlemonde

evolving_doors wrote: »

Media education correspondents can get nice cushy advisory rolls if they tow the party line.

Anyhow they'll bring in some 'jobsbridge' teachfirst initiative soon to firmly put the boot in.

And fempi hasn't gone away you know! so best keep on that mouldy green jersey you threw on 10 years ago and lie back and think of Ireland :pac:


All jokes aside, Having SNA's take classes on a long term basis though is scandalous.
Students should be just sent home, if that SNA isn't allowed look after the physical care needs of it's allocated pupil(s) then that's open to legal scrutiny of something happens.

The solution is simple.
Kill the 2 years and bring back the masters allowance once you commence teaching. This will allow for a better quality 'in the field' masters too.

Acknowledge the hours culture is NOT going to change, it's been a part of the system for the last 30+ years. Just help those starting out with decent sub work (aka abolish S&S).

Some schools in some parts of the country with difficult to fill subjects will start advertising CID positions ... or can they do that?

endacl

enricoh wrote: »

All the whinging about new entrants pay by the unions is probably putting school leavers off applying. If they knew that they'd kick off on 36k in their early 20s I'd say a lot more would apply imo.

They'd be very lucky to. Most start of with a few hours here and there. Many spend a good chunk of years pro-rata, at a fraction of 22 hours.

userb

EXACTLY

evolving_doors

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Some schools in some parts of the country with difficult to fill subjects will start advertising CID positions ... or can they do that?

Yup you can offer a position as CID straight off the bat.
Although it would have to get dept. approval I think!

deiseindublin

No point in feeding the trolls.

Anybody that is interested knows that nobody gets 22 hours ALL YEAR in the first few years unless it's a total fluke.

mtoutlemonde

evolving_doors wrote: »

Yup you can offer a position as CID straight off the bat.
Although it would have to get dept. approval I think!

Well it will happen - many jobs are readvertised on educationposts especially in particular parts of the country and in demand subjects - but I think at the moment all subjects are in demand.

TheQuietFella

A few I know who graduated a number of years ago have now gone abroad
to work as the earnings are a whole lot better and who could blame them!
Much like the nursing sector, better earnings abroad!

NufcNavan

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Some schools in some parts of the country with difficult to fill subjects will start advertising CID positions ... or can they do that?

What some schools are now doing is being deliberately vague about the hours/type of contract on offer so that they will widen the net of applicants. Some change from even 2 or 3 years ago where some had the neck to look for self addressed envelopes and the like.

They do this because they know even NQTs and other young teachers can now pick and choose the bitty jobs they get offered rather than be gracious for whatever crap gets thrown their way straight off the bat.

Noveight

The department have decided to bury their head in the sand once again. God only knows what gems they'll come up with when the situation is undeniably gone down the S-bend!

Irish Times: No overall problem with teacher supply, insists Department of Education

mtoutlemonde

Noveight wrote: »

The department have decided to bury their head in the sand once again. God only knows what gems they'll come up with when the situation is undeniably gone down the S-bend!

Irish Times: No overall problem with teacher supply, insists Department of Education

It's only a pinch point

Back to the Mammies/Carers and retired teachers to ease the situation ... sure till be grand!!!

FA NG

Just to add here im aware of schools that have hired unqualified teachers. I did my BA in fine art, a woman I went to college with went on to her masters in installation but has no teaching qualifications at all and has been offered a full time art teaching position in a secondary school, while many of my trained teacher friends cant get so much as a sub position. Whats the point if schools wont even support graduate teachers?

evolving_doors

FA NG wrote: »

Just to add here im aware of schools that have hired unqualified teachers. I did my BA in fine art, a woman I went to college with went on to her masters in installation but has no teaching qualifications at all and has been offered a full time art teaching position in a secondary school, while many of my trained teacher friends cant get so much as a sub position. Whats the point if schools wont even support graduate teachers?

Could be privately paid by the school,
Or else 're-appropriating;)' around resource/learning support hours to create 22hrs

evolving_doors

deiseindublin wrote: »

No point in feeding the trolls.

Anybody that is interested knows that nobody gets 22 hours ALL YEAR in the first few years unless it's a total fluke.

In fairness they might just be taking what is put out by govt/media as true!

feardeas

Looks like an army of chickens are coming home to roost. 22 hours is unheard of almost for NQT. I started nearly 14 years ago and just was lucky with to get 22 TWT. In fairness in our place they do their level best to up hours but in less of places they seem to be splitting jobs into hours. Young people are not going to stay around for that nonsense.

The 2 year 12k+ pme has to be a factor. Whatever official came up with that brainwave would be getting the door and a nice earner for the universities as well.

The pay scale inequality is also a factor and will have to be addressed.

So they can't get the nurses or teachers or doctors to stay. The guards can't get overtime in some instances. Soon the graduate entry to the civil service will run dry. Some one in DPER needs to wake up and see what's going on unless we want everyone with half a brain to be tip tapping in the silicon docks.

I'm feeling an Action Plan from Mr Bruton may be in the works.

Icsics

Yes, breaking one full time job into hours is definitely a problem. But as long as the P & DP is dependent on teacher nos & not student nos it's going to continue

feardeas

Icsics wrote:

Yes, breaking one full time job into hours is definitely a problem. But as long as the P & DP is dependent on teacher nos & not student nos it's going to continue

Interesting, thought it was whole time equivalents, if not then it is a scandal on full.

r93kaey5p2izun

[URL] https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=94993530[/URL]


P&DP salary depends on Whole Time Equivalents not just number of teachers employed so that's not the reason for splitting jobs.

It seems to me that management in a majority of schools have just been incredibly short sighted in seeing only the short term gains of the hours culture and haven't given much if any thought to the long term consequences. (I'm referring here to the undeniable practice of splitting jobs unnecessarily - not the situation of minority subject teachers on part time hours which is always going to be an issue).

I started a thread here about it before (see link above) to try to understand the rationale behind it and what research management were following that suggested this was a beneficial way to run schools. It's also something I have asked everyone I've come in contact with involved in managing and running schools over the past year. I've even asked our CEO. Incredibly it seems that there really is zero long term vision on this issue and that the short term benefits that come from being able to control desperate teachers lacking job security really was the only consideration all along.

userb

Yeap another great point there

Noveight

The 2 year Masters was the straw that broke the camels back when it came to driving people away from teaching. It'll be changed again before long once they realise that people just won't bite.

Over the course of the 2 years I'll have spent 44 weeks on school placement and 24 weeks in NUIG. Over the two years they're collecting 12k for 24 weeks of lectures/workshops and a few inspections scattered here and there, talk about lucrative!

It's no wonder the entry requirements have been consistently sliding lower and lower, they'll be begging people to sign up for a finish.

Seannew1

Noveight wrote: »

The 2 year Masters was the straw that broke the camels back when it came to driving people away from teaching. It'll be changed again before long once they realise that people just won't bite.

Over the course of the 2 years I'll have spent 44 weeks on school placement and 24 weeks in NUIG. Over the two years they're collecting 12k for 24 weeks of lectures/workshops and a few inspections scattered here and there, talk about lucrative!

It's no wonder the entry requirements have been consistently sliding lower and lower, they'll be begging people to sign up for a finish.

I'm one of the fools who stumped up for that course; If they do put it back to one year, I imagine the response we'd get if we asked to be re-imbursed!!

FA NG

Noveight wrote: »

The 2 year Masters was the straw that broke the camels back when it came to driving people away from teaching. It'll be changed again before long once they realise that people just won't bite.

Over the course of the 2 years I'll have spent 44 weeks on school placement and 24 weeks in NUIG. Over the two years they're collecting 12k for 24 weeks of lectures/workshops and a few inspections scattered here and there, talk about lucrative!

It's no wonder the entry requirements have been consistently sliding lower and lower, they'll be begging people to sign up for a finish.

Theyre supposedly introducing free springboard PME courses for home-makers.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2017/1020/913810-school-leaders-conference/

Can't see them reducing the masters to 1 year, too many people have already paid thousands for the new PME. Can you imagine the uproar it would cause? NQT's are already at breaking point with lack of permanent positions and reduced wages, id imagine that would push them over the edge.

amacca

Noveight wrote: »

The 2 year Masters was the straw that broke the camels back when it came to driving people away from teaching. It'll be changed again before long once they realise that people just won't bite.

Theres a lesson in that.....


Maybe if teachers stuck together and didn't bite when it came to other issues there would be a lot of other nonsense that the powers that be wouldn't attempt to foist on the profession.

deiseindublin

Yeah but the TUI folded early, and the anti democratic faction of the ASTI put paid to that.

ethical

Richard of Ed should cop on now and get teaching sorted! Give the two fingers to Paschal if needs be!
If only the Sh1theads at the top listened,there must be many methods to fix this problem.
How about the following as regards the 2 year Dip,keep it at 2 years BUT pay the student teacher for the teaching element on the second year,at least income would be provided and TAX would be paid(this should keep Paschal happy,if thats possible!).
How about phasing out (may not be the correct word!) any teacher with 30 years + service over a ,say,5 year period while the newly qualified Teacher takes over ,gradually,so that after the 5 years ,one teacher can retire gracefully having assisted a younger colleague to gain a permanent foothold in the profession.

Of course I do not expect this to even get consideration as some school managers are so far up their own HOLES that all they see is mé Féinism,cronyism and scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.It makes me sick to the bottom of my stomach the carry on that takes place in education management,and you can include ETBs and Voluntary Secondary schools in this.Forget the Unions, as they are no fcukin good at fixing anything!

userb

I agree pay the teachers for the second part of the year in the PME

rainbowtrout

ethical wrote: »

How about phasing out (may not be the correct word!) any teacher with 30 years + service over a ,say,5 year period while the newly qualified Teacher takes over ,gradually,so that after the 5 years ,one teacher can retire gracefully having assisted a younger colleague to gain a permanent foothold in the profession.

And why should teachers be put on the scrapheap at the age of 52?

How about schools have to justify why they are advertising contracts for low hours, and make changes so this is phased out instead? How about the government decreases the pupil teacher ratio so more jobs can be created and students can get the benefits of being taught in smaller classes? The amazing Finnish system is waved in front of us at every opportunity, why not bring our pupil teacher ratio into line with theirs and have a ratio of 11:1 in our schools instead of 19:1?

Noveight

I don't see a PME student ever being paid for school placement classes. That would mean either paying both the student and the class teacher or else taking money from the teachers wage to allow for the student, neither of which will ever happen.

In regards to money the best thing a PME like myself can do is be available for doing after-school study or cover the odd class that pops up here and there. It helps to keep petrol in the car.

ethical

Fair play Rainbowtrout I'm with you all the way but I was just seeing it from Paschals side!!! and we all know his ilk prefer dealing with money rather than people!

feardeas

I remember hearing a few years ago that the Department felt the cuts in pay etc would bite but that it would be a few years. I think it has happened quicker than they thought. The PME seems to be as someone said the final straw. If the lauded teaching council allow some kind of springboard thing to happen then they should be disbanded.

The Times, God bless them talk about a good starting salary, it is IF a teacher is on full hours. We all know that that was always hard come by at the beginning and it's twice as difficult now.

The department must also know of the huge increase in numbers at post primary that we are having into especially in Dublin and surrounding areas. This is a perfect storm in many ways.

A small part of me wonders if they're preparing the ground to give on the payscale.

JohnnyJohnJohns

It's not talked about as much but there is a similar issue in third level (In ITs at least)- in particular piecemeal contracts that in my experience create headaches all the way up the chain.

And for any teaching post you need a masters (realistically PhD) and at least 3 years experience. This puts the most suitable candidates in a field like IT on about 50-60k so they're not likely to jump into lecturing given the significant pay gap between that salary and point 1 of the AL scale. It's proving difficult to fill a number of posts in our department which is forcing a reliance on part time hours that are getting harder and harder to fill.

I don't envy management in the IT's right now, caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to recruitment!

playedalive

Yes and I would be one of those that instead of applying for teacher training in Ireland, I went to the UK, well England where the system is in crisis and they are paying bursaries for shortage subjects like mine. €15,000 approx over 2 years with no way of or difficulty holding a part time job was the motivator for a career I always wanted despite many years in industry. With the introduction of everything synonymous with the English system, such as a strong/weak rating system, it seems Ireland will not learn from the English system. Though, you could agree Ofsted is a necessary evil. While the English system has its negatives, the major positives are a year's training, payment for it and good opportunities at getting a job and making a life. (leaving the workload and amount of assessment data collected through loads of testing and used to make teaching more corporate by establishing Key Performance Indicator and Targets.

Unless Ireland changes contracts and reforms work conditions, I shrug at thinking of the future. I doubt Ireland will do the Bursary thing, or the somewhat insulting Springboard course plan by Bruton.

doc_17

Part of me is delighted every time I hear about the teacher crisis (and yes, Minister, it is a crisis). Only when it bites hard will action be taken.

Seannew1

doc_17 wrote: »

Part of me is delighted every time I hear about the teacher crisis (and yes, Minister, it is a crisis). Only when it bites hard will action be taken.

Imagine if principals started ringing up parents at work to come in and collect their children, who cannot be supervised, without a teacher. There would be uproar.

evolving_doors

Seannew1 wrote: »

Imagine if principals started ringing up parents at work to come in and collect their children, who cannot be supervised, without a teacher. There would be uproar.

I'd say the default option prior to that would be to get someone in to just supervise (Secretary, SNA, caretaker, someone on the BOM, parents council, relatives).

Seannew1

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'd say the default option prior to that would be to get someone in to just supervise (Secretary, SNA, caretaker, someone on the BOM, parents council, relatives).

Johnny off the street could supervise too!