Coast Guard Banned from Beamount

TallGlass

http://www.thejournal.ie/coast-guard-beaumont-3781640-Jan2018/#comment-6836490

Seems the residence association have managed to get a ban on the helicopter landing in there field. They now can only land at Dublin Airport, adding 20 mins to transportation.

I think that even if Beaumont hospital put in for a helicopter landing spot on the site they would still log a complaint with DCC.

Collie D

The association said it was “only a matter of time before someone gets knocked down, running across the road to see the action”.

“Or worse still, there’s a wobble on landing and a crash.”

I think those odds are much longer than somebody ending up dead because the chopper had to land at the airport.

Can't see their point of view at all.

NickNickleby

Appalling situation. I live within 10 minutes walk of the place, and the helicopter often passes over my house. When I hear it, my first thought is always for the poor person who is in such a serious situation that they had to be helicoptered in.

To be fair though, I always assumed the helicopter was landing on top of the hospital.

Landing should be reinstated immediately, and facilities then built within the hospital to permit landing there.

afatbollix

Disgusting.


Looks like the backlash is starting on the facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Beaumont-Woods-Residents-Association-763445410465490/?hc_ref=ARQ1m0pL8ZNyNuzOAsTExcV9we4g7Gp6yELf4hjb8it35MmoDjsbn-TEXORG9CrjY-k

With head injuries, we are talking minutes to permanent damage.

Sam Quentin

Ffs

evosteo

That's an absolute travesty. They better hope none of their families depend on a aerial medical emergency. F*cking curtain twitches

odyssey06

"One member of the association told TheJournal.ie that they had been given the impression the use of the football pitch would only be temporary, after the on-site heli-pad at the hospital was replaced with a staff car park. However, it has been years now and the hospital has not replaced the landing site on its grounds."

Should our emergency services really be using a football pitch?
In my opinion this comes back to Beaumont Hospital, why haven't they replaced the heli-pad?
A football patch is a temporary stop-gap only, this isn't the Vietnam War.
But I guess a staff car park is more important!

If the residents object to a proper heli-pad in the hospital, then they shouldn't have a leg to stand on.

BowWow

The real question here is why was the hospital allowed convert a helicopter landing pad to staff car parking spaces in the first place? This is no different from converting ambulance bays at Accident & Emergency to staff parking.

Will they convert an operating theatre to a staff rest room next?

I've always believed that hospitals are run to suit staff needs and not patient needs.

Ben D Bus

BowWow wrote: »

The real question here is why was the hospital allowed convert a helicopter landing pad to staff car parking spaces in the first place? This is no different from converting ambulance bays at Accident & Emergency to staff parking.

I found this a bit disturbing alright. I'd love an explanation! I've directed an incredulous tweet in the direction of Simon Harris!!! I expect a response shortly

vicwatson

Can’t they put a helipad on the top of the multistory car park in Beaumont? Prob solved

Riskymove

TallGlass wrote: »

Seems the residence association have managed to get a ban on the helicopter landing in there field.

It hasn't been banned

The Coastguard have decided to suspend doing it until they have completed a "suitablility survey"

Tabnabs

vicwatson wrote: »

Can’t they put a helipad on the top of the multistory car park in Beaumont? Prob solved

Having some experience of this in the past; the structural, fire fighting & control and access issues effectively rule out add-on locations for helipads. They have to be designed specifically from the very beginning. Unless you have a spare bit of flat ground that may be suitable.

neris

BowWow wrote: »

The real question here is why was the hospital allowed convert a helicopter landing pad to staff car parking spaces in the first place? .

theyve a serious lack of staff parking in the hospital and they arent allowed turn anymore of the hospital site into parking. that landing area was a football field used by the primary school aswell.

TallGlass

Riskymove wrote: »

It hasn't been banned

The Coastguard have decided to suspend doing it until they have completed a "suitablility survey"

Use whatever blurb you want to spout out, the fact of the matter is the helicopter is banned or 'suspended' from landing in Beamount and it's putting critically ill peoples lives at risk.

Why can't the survey be done at the same time and allow landing? It's fairly obvious without a survey that a helipad is needed on site and what perfect timing with the works to start on upgrading the A&E to get it done at the same time.

The reason for the new car park, is a group of moanbags in Kilmore giving out stink about cars, legally parking on the roads around it. The thing is there still isn't enough parking for staff in the car parks. The solution, I would imagine would be to build a new staff multistory carpark with helipad on top, to stop all the moaners around both areas. That said they'll still give out stink about something else. Where they get the time for all this complaining is another question.

That said, Dublin Airport is a bit overkill, there are other fields closer to land in, Oscar Traynor fields are large enough to land or the OBI on the Malahide road actually lands crafts from time to time for training with DFB.

Riskymove

TallGlass wrote: »

Use whatever blurb you want to spout out......

steady on now.....I was simply pointing out the facts here...I am not defending anyone

I imagine the survey is about making sure the site is suitable and safe as a landing site .....not a survey to see if a helipad is required for Beamount ....clearly it is

markpb

vicwatson wrote: »

Can’t they put a helipad on the top of the multistory car park in Beaumont? Prob solved

You can't just land a helicopter on top of any building that happens to have a flat roof. It has to be strong enough to withstand all 7 tonnes of an S-92 being plonked on top of it. It also has to have enough space free of obstructions so that the helicopter doesn't crash on the way in or out. Even if the carpark did manage to meet those criteria, you still have to consider getting someone from the helicopter and into the hospital.

TallGlass

Riskymove wrote: »

steady on now.....I was simply pointing out the facts here...I am not defending anyone

I imagine the survey is about making sure the site is suitable and safe as a landing site .....not a survey to see if a helipad is required for Beamount ....clearly it is

Apologies, didn't mean to come across as harsh, reading back over the post.

I get what you mean about the survey, I was just getting a little hot at the thoughts of 10 committees and 20 reports on the issue, only to get it on the long finger of the government, we might see something built in 20 years. I do think a good solution is a multistory purpose build for staff parking and again purpose built helipad. Would solve two issues in one.

Out of interest can any of the major hospitals in Dublin accept aircraft landing?

Alun

As markpb says, one of the problems is that the size and weight of the S92's the CG use is such that a typical rooftop helipad would almost certainly be out of the question. These helipads are usually designed for smaller helicopters that would typically be used as Air Ambulances which are smaller and lighter. Also the diameter of the rotor and the safety area around it required determine the size of the landing area required.

vicwatson

markpb wrote: »

You can't just land a helicopter on top of any building that happens to have a flat roof. It has to be strong enough to withstand all 7 tonnes of an S-92 being plonked on top of it. It also has to have enough space free of obstructions so that the helicopter doesn't crash on the way in or out. Even if the carpark did manage to meet those criteria, you still have to consider getting someone from the helicopter and into the hospital.

Of course.

But why didn’t they do it when converting the old one to a car park? The roof of the existing car park is useless as is and could have been ideal. Beats landing in the hospitals neighbours football pitch so to speak

neris

TallGlass wrote: »

Out of interest can any of the major hospitals in Dublin accept aircraft landing?

I don't think threes any building in Dublin that can take a helicopter landing on it.

witchgirl26

BowWow wrote: »

The real question here is why was the hospital allowed convert a helicopter landing pad to staff car parking spaces in the first place? This is no different from converting ambulance bays at Accident & Emergency to staff parking.

The reason it was converted was because local residents complained about hospital staff parking in the area for the whole length of shifts. The hospital had to put additional parking on-site and unfortunately the only area available to them was the heli-pad.

The hospital has grown a huge amount since it was originally planned and built but unfortunately some of the auxiliary services such as car parks did not keep up.

And as for hospitals being run for staff.....seriously? Course staff should be a consideration. Without staff the patients are royally scr*wed!

RasTa

BowWow wrote: »

The real question here is why was the hospital allowed convert a helicopter landing pad to staff car parking spaces in the first place? This is no different from converting ambulance bays at Accident & Emergency to staff parking.

Will they convert an operating theatre to a staff rest room next?

I've always believed that hospitals are run to suit staff needs and not patient needs.

Ah yeah, those lazy hospital staff. Sitting around all day doing nothing.

lilblackdress

BowWow, if only hospitals did cater to their staff more then there would be more staff.... less issues. Hospitals unfortunately can't function too well without the staff and already have little enough as it is....

As for the helipad. There are hospitals in Dublin that have applied for trauma centres, If one gets the go ahead, that where all the helicopters will be landing and a new helipad will be built.

As for Beaumont residents objecting to the coastguard landing.... I get that it's a nuisance but for fooks sake.... they are landing for someone who has an immediate danger to their life and require immediate treatment.

It makes no sense to me when people sit and give out about emergency services.... they usually have not YET required their services

Storm 10

markpb wrote: »

You can't just land a helicopter on top of any building that happens to have a flat roof. It has to be strong enough to withstand all 7 tonnes of an S-92 being plonked on top of it. It also has to have enough space free of obstructions so that the helicopter doesn't crash on the way in or out. Even if the carpark did manage to meet those criteria, you still have to consider getting someone from the helicopter and into the hospital.

The S92 is 12 tonnes.

Storm 10

TallGlass wrote: »

Out of interest can any of the major hospitals in Dublin accept aircraft landing?

Tallaght only.

Storm 10

Alun wrote: »

As markpb says, one of the problems is that the size and weight of the S92's the CG use is such that a typical rooftop helipad would almost certainly be out of the question. These helipads are usually designed for smaller helicopters that would typically be used as Air Ambulances which are smaller and lighter. Also the diameter of the rotor and the safety area around it required determine the size of the landing area required.

AFAIK the S92 is not certified to land on a rooftop pad in Ireland or the UK. The UK HMCG use the S92 also and they can not land on a rooftop pad either where as their previous aircraft used were the RAF/RN Seakings & they could land on a rooftop pad.

In the UK in order for an S92 to land on a rooftop pad it needs to be able to support the 12 ton weight, the rooftop pads were deisgned to support 9.7 ton, the Seaking max weight is 9.5 ton.

TallGlass

Could the top of the car park in Beaumont multistory not be retrofitted? It would easily hold 12 tonne. There's spaces for around 50/60 cars. So if fully loaded that roof should support about 60/70 tonnes?

I still don't think the people of the area will be happy. Not only the complaining about the landing of helicopters also complaining about low flying aircraft at night.

I do hope they protest that last one by never stepping foot on another aircraft.

Odyssey 2005

Moaning and complaining about any af the rescue helicopters landing in the vicinity of the hospital is akin to objecting to a garda car ,fire brigade or ambulances driving down their road on their way to an emergency. They should be told to fook off,it's an emergency vehicle and can go where it is deemed safe by the crew to go, they are trained to the nth degree and safety is foremost in their minds.
They fly out to sea in weather that the people of Beaumont wouldn't walk to the pub in,and yet they can't expedite the injured party's recovery ,bu bringing him/her directly to hospital because of the small mindness of a fwe moaners.
Boils my blood.

PhoenixParker

TallGlass wrote: »

Could the top of the car park in Beaumont multistory not be retrofitted? It would easily hold 12 tonne. There's spaces for around 50/60 cars. So if fully loaded that roof should support about 60/70 tonnes?

I still don't think the people of the area will be happy. Not only the complaining about the landing of helicopters also complaining about low flying aircraft at night.

I do hope they protest that last one by never stepping foot on another aircraft.

Very different loading scenario between a single point impact load of a helicopter landing vs cars with no impact loading distributed across the whole surface of the car park.

TallGlass

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Very different loading scenario between a single point impact load of a helicopter landing vs cars with no impact loading distributed across the whole surface of the car park.

Yeah I thought as much to be honest. I do think they should build one at Beaumont, but I suspect the objections from people would be quite high.

Now would be the time to do it, A&E is getting upgraded, across from A&E is a car park, they could fit a multistory car park for staff with helipad on top with access across to A&E from helipad. Problem there is helipad would be very close to houses.

Other option is to fit out a multistory staff car park with some office space toward top levels and helipad on top. On the car park site to the West of the site, only reason I mention office space is some of the offices/workers on site are still in prefab offices. How feasible it is to have a mix like that I don't know.

It will solve 3 issues faced by the hospital, IE helicopter landings, complaints from people in Kilmore over staff parking cars around the area and the prefab offices on site.

I wonder why not or if they considered placing a helipad on top of the new RCSI building?

markpb

TallGlass wrote: »

Yeah I thought as much to be honest. I do think they should build one at Beaumont, but I suspect the objections from people would be quite high.

I suspect the problem is not local objections (the field in Beaumont Woods was only used 20 times last year) but the difficulty and cost in building a helipad that isn't on the ground. For reference, the S92 helipad at Blacksod has a landing zone of 30m x 30m and a clearance of 50m x 50m. It's an incredible size, much bigger than most people imagine would be needed for a helicopter. The current multi-story car park at Beaumont isn't big enough for a helipad. It's almost 20m too narrow in one direction. Additionally, the supports underneath the landing zone would take up a big chunk of the usable space on the floor beneath and I'm guessing the supports on the other floors would also need to be bigger, further reducing the amount of space available for the car park. Putting a helipad on top of a future car park would take up a lot of space (possibly more than they have available), be very restricted in the amount of parking spaces left and cost a fortune because of that.

For reference, the Mater applied for permission to build a ground-based helipad in 2016. This would be for 7 years before being replaced by a rooftop based one on a new building. They provided three reasons for selecting the location that they did:

The applicant has submitted a letter from the Mater Hospital Estates and Facilities
Department which states that the roof of the Whitty Wing (Adult Hospital) had previously
been investigated as a possible location for a helipad. However, the foundations were
deemed to be structurally unsuitable.

It is further stated that the proposed location has been
chosen as it is the only area that is sufficiently large enough to accommodate the full extent
of the downwash area generated bay an operating helicopter.

The applicant goes on to state in their response that there is no other location within the
campus that will allow an approach gradient that complies with the international standard
ICAO Annex 14 Vol 2.

This stuff is complicated and expensive. There could be many good reasons why Beaumont haven't built a helipad yet. Some commentators were claiming yesterday that they had applied for planning permission before but it had been turned down. I can't find any sign of this.

odyssey06

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Moaning and complaining about any af the rescue helicopters landing in the vicinity of the hospital is akin to objecting to a garda car ,fire brigade or ambulances driving down their road on their way to an emergency. They should be told to fook off,it's an emergency vehicle and can go where it is deemed safe by the crew to go, they are trained to the nth degree and safety is foremost in their minds.

The situation you describe would be accuate, if there was someone on the playing pitch injured and in need of emergency assistance and an ambulance had to go onto the pitch to get close to the situation. But this is not a public road, it is not a once off emergency situation... we know the helicopter is going to need to land again in future. Proper facilities need to be put in place for it. Someone else's football pitch is not a proper facility.

If it was so important that the helicopters be able to land on hospital helipads, one wonders why in the tender lighter displacement wasn't specified?

Skedaddle

The exact same thing happened at CUH which is the only other emergency neurosurgical unit in Ireland - The helipad was removed to make way for some buildings or car parking and never reinstated, resulting in a similar situation where patients need to be airlifted to Cork Airport which is a similar distance to CUH as Beaumont is from Dublin Airport and also suffers from traffic.

In Cork the same thing was happening - use of near by sports pitches for emergency traffic.

It isn't reasonable for the hospital to make permanent use of a football pitch, and while I don't agree with the residents blocking access entirely, I can see their frustration.

I find this a lot with the health service here, crisis situations become normality.
Even getting patients to and from a field seems crazy. A proper hospital helipad has all the facilities for getting people to and from the hospital on paved walkways and quickly.

We seem to have created a load of difficulties for hospitals with helipads for some reason. In a lot of other countries, they're on the roof.

Land --- > Stretcher to lift ---> Straight to trauma unit / theatre.

In Ireland land... stretchered across uneven bumpy, muddy field, through the carpark, across a big campus, in the door...

You're talking about a few million Euro that's been clipped on what is a really serious emergency facility that should be at these hospitals.

Both are huge (by Irish standards) over 800 bed acute hospitals with very specialised major trauma services, specifically needing helicopter access. If you get a brain injury you need to get to one of them FAST and there is nowhere else to go.

Both have budgets in the region of €360 million per year.

Helipad cost for the two of them maybe max 5 million in total for both.

Having no dedicated helipads is a complete and utter joke in 2018. There is no resource issue here and this has been rolling on and on and on and on....

This whole mess sounds typical of the HSE - one endless omnishambles.

Billgirlylegs

Coast Guard banned from Beaumont?
Grizzle, grizzle staff suiting themselves
Grizzle grizzle neighbours complaining about noise.

The hospital (like most of our attempts at infrastructure ) was planned, costed and designed by idiots and shoved into a corner of a massive site.
it was a dreadful excuse for a hospital when it opened and has been added to piecemeal ever since.

The 12 tonne helicopter lands on grass in the middle of a housing estate.
Do you think there are safety concerns at all?
These helicoptors have also used St Vincents GAA grounds to land, and are substantial pieces of equipment.

The previous "landing site" was also unsuitable and was re-allocated to provide parking for staff, to alleviate the pressure on public parking spaces.
The public were parking on suburban streets, blocking residents from access to their driveways, blocking roads, and parking dangerously.

The two groups of "nimbys" are on different sides of the hospital and have no connection with one another or indeed to the Staff.
Do you think three different groups having justified, civil issues might suggest the problem isn't a matter of moaning about inconvenience.

I don't live in the area and it does not affect me directly, but I am familiar with the site, and in my opinion, yes they are justified in their complaint.
As do the authorities.

Skedaddle

Multistory carpark with a helipad roof seems to be the solution that would work in both of those hospitals. You’d massively improve parking by removing reliance on wasteful surface parking and gain a useful helipad.

TallGlass

I forgot I actually got a video of the helicopter in said field during the summer.

Come to think of it the take off nearly blew me off sitting on my motorbike.

I'm on two sides here watching the video. The residence have a point, but I think they would have been smarter to ask it to continue landing there while pushing for a permanent solution. If I had a head injury and was in that helicopter. They could winch me down for all I care if it ment gain vital minutes.

Why Dublin Airport? There are plenty more fields closer that they could land in. OBI can land them there and is closer than Dublin Airport and also would be a distance from houses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Vo0X54h6s

Skedaddle

The problem here is that in the past we didn't really think 'big' about infrastructure. Everything was done on the cheap / small scale / piecemeal projects.

That's how most of our hospitals are shoehorned into small sites.

Dublin should really have several large medical campuses that have enough space for serious parking, helipads, big facilities and are pleasant to actually spend time on. Instead, it has a load of cramped sites and facilities scattered to the four winds with ambulances moving people around.

For example, if you look at something like cancer treatment in the Mater, they're constantly ferrying patients over to Beaumont and to St James by ambulance because they're missing key facilities. Every hospital in the region is in the same boat.

If you look at Ireland in total, there's only one hospital that classifies as a "Level 1 Trauma Facility" i.e. has all of the services it needs on one campus, and that's CUH in Cork and again some HSE bright spark decided to remove its helipad to makeway for buildings and then didn't replace it.

We need to also consider going up a lot higher on these campuses that we do have. There's no reason why many of them couldn't be significantly taller. Even 8 to 10 stories would be plenty. They are absolutely not in architecturally significant areas or areas of great natural beauty.

Tallaght - 70s suburbia.
Beaumont - 50s-70s suburbia.
Vincent's - 50s-60s suburbia.
Blanchardstown / Connolly - Almost open fields.
CUH - 50s-70s suburbia.


The Mater - Old historic area. No space.
James' - Old historic area. Limited space.

So naturally enough they squeezed the new children's hospital onto the site with no space at all for no logical reason.

If the HSE had any sense in Dublin you would be focusing development to create a major facility in Blanchardstown and also seeking to acquire lands somewhere around Dublin for another major facility which could be developed as a proper campus.

Dublin has a whole collection of small/medium hospitals none of which seem to be able to cover everything and it's all down to pandering to historical nonsense, sniffling snobbery and nonsense that goes on between three medical schools and various religious orders, trusts etc and nothing about creating a serious public health system in the region. It's like we look at every single vested interest before the overall outcome of the decision to plan a major health facility.

Cork's slightly less impacted because there's only one medical school and slightly less religious orders / trusts involved, but even there they tried to create a huge health complex at CUH and it's still not big enough as a site and they've managed to build into a corner.

Nekarsulm

While I accept the details posted about the size of area needed for a Sikorsky to land, the weight element is not a problem for a multi story car park to sustain.

Any full size 4x4 or luxury car weights 2 tons.
Park 6 LandCruisers or Volvo SUV's in a row side by side in a multi story car park, and that's the weight of a Sikorsky sitting there, and no problems whatsoever.
Your average car park level probably has 40 to 60 tons of vehicles sitting on the area needed to set down a 12 ton chopper.

worded

RasTa wrote: »

Ah yeah, those lazy hospital staff. Sitting around all day doing nothing.

On their handy 12 hour shifts with 30 min hand over so it’s a 13 hour shift, or way longer, sometimes a few days in a row. Fcuk me I’d need a helicopter home after the hours some med people work

markpb

Nekarsulm wrote: »

While I accept the details posted about the size of area needed for a Sikorsky to land, the weight element is not a problem for a multi story car park to sustain.

Any full size 4x4 or luxury car weights 2 tons.
Park 6 LandCruisers or Volvo SUV's in a row side by side in a multi story car park, and that's the weight of a Sikorsky sitting there, and no problems whatsoever.
Your average car park level probably has 40 to 60 tons of vehicles sitting on the area needed to set down a 12 ton chopper.

Do those cars regularly drop from the ground in a controlled fall with all 12t being supported by six parking spaces?

If it was as simple as you say, do you think the coast guard would have thought of it already?

Nekarsulm

markpb wrote: »

Do those cars regularly drop from the ground in a controlled fall with all 12t being supported by six parking spaces?

If it was as simple as you say, do you think the coast guard would have thought of it already?

So just pour a second reinforced slab spanning 4 support columns.....
It's not like there's no suspension on a Sikorsky.
If you asked an engineer they'd have a solution in a couple of days, but when you involve politicians, "interest groups" and allow every dog and divil from Finian Cuba Libre McGrath to Dail finance committees and Richard Briers types (Ever decreasing circles)to stick their oar in, then nothing ever gets done.

Markcheese

If it was so important that the helicopters be able to land on hospital helipads, one wonders why in the tender lighter displacement wasn't specified

That kind of takes my breath away, maybe they tendered for the type of helicopters that could fly out to sea in all weather's 24/7.?

I know a lot of the car parking in CUH is surface parking (ie. Not multistorey, it shouldn't be impossible to find a section that is over 50meters by 50meters near the a and é and not impeded by buildings and power lines and place a single storey helipad above the car park.
Also don't need to put one at every hospital, one major hospital per city/region would do.

odyssey06

Markcheese wrote: »

If it was so important that the helicopters be able to land on hospital helipads, one wonders why in the tender lighter displacement wasn't specified

That kind of takes my breath away, maybe they tendered for the type of helicopters that could fly out to sea in all weather's 24/7.?

Not sure why it takes your breath away... earlier comments on the thread indicate that the Sea King could land on the helipads. I don't know the relative performances of the two helicopters in terms of range & all weathers. The Sea King was in use by the Royal Navy for search and rescue and the Irish coastguard which suggests rugged performance.

It seems reasonable to ask if helipad use was a criteria in selection of a replacement for the Sea King, or was it only realised after the replacement went operational that it could no longer use the helipads that were in situ.

Skedaddle

It's weird how these structural issues seem to only apply in Ireland. I assume we've different laws of physics here. Create a proper structure and you should be able to leave anything on it safely!

A helicopter could drop out of the sky, but they generally don't.

The other issue in Ireland is the use of inappropriate helicopters for air ambulance service.

There really should be a regional air ambulance service setup properly based at Dublin, Cork and probably Knock.

Heavy lift rescue helicopters shouldn't be getting used as regular air ambulance.

If you have to land occasional heavy copters on the ground, then yeah you have to do it. However, that should only be for air sea rescue and so on.

We need a small fleet or proper air ambulances, capable or landing on hospital helipads and landing in more restricted circumstances for emergencies too.

You absolutely need landing facilities at key trauma centres and you need to be able to land small helicopters at basically every other hospital so you can air lift someone to one of those centres should it be necessary.

We have plenty of money to get these things right, but we don't.

Nekarsulm

Skedaddle wrote: »

It's weird how these structural issues seem to only apply in Ireland. I assume we've different laws of physics here.

Create a proper structure and you should be able to leave anything on it safely!

A helicopter could drop out of the sky, but they generally don't.

The other issue in Ireland is the use of inappropriate helicopters for air ambulance service.

There really should be a regional air ambulance service setup properly based at Dublin, Cork and probably Knock.

Heavy lift rescue helicopters shouldn't be getting used as regular air ambulance.

Go take a look at the old Central Bank on Dame Street.
8 slabs on a central spine.
Now plans are in for a bar/restuarant on the roof, with capacity for 300 people.
That's 20 tons, moving about and possibly all on one side of the overhang, jumping up and down to music .
But 12 tons on a multi story is impossible....
The lifts on car parks are probably too small for a stretcher trolley, though.

Skedaddle

Why would you build something this this on the central bank?!
You're talking about a purpose built facility with the appropriate structure. Not building a helipad on an existing building.

Also why would you build it with small lifts?! Unless of course you were the health planners in this country, who would probably specifically request escalators.

Even just building a simple tall multistory and clearing the necessary space for a helipad at ground level might be an idea.

There's no reason whatsoever there can't be way more parking at all of these hospitals by just stacking it and it clears tons of space.

I find planners here like to imagine everyone will go to hospital on public transport or a bike, so put in grossly undersized carparks.

Nekarsulm

I was commenting on the possibility of putting a heli-pad on top of an existing hospital multi story car park, and the load bearing capabilities of properly designed reinforced concrete.

Skedaddle

I'd be talking about taking say the flat surface visitors carpark and maybe going up 6 or more levels on half of it and clearing space for a helipad and massively improving parking.

They charge enough for the parking too so it's not like they wouldn't recoup the cost!

Looking at it on Google maps there is plenty of space for a surface helipad by just rearranging the carparks.

It's the same at CUH. They simply need to organise the space better and stack the parking to make more space on site.

We've a terrible fear of going beyond 1 story here. Big flat spread of hospitals on confined sites is a ridiculous use of space and surface parking is beyond nuts were space is clearly at a premium.

We can manage do this at shopping centres and airports but not hospitals for some reason.

With a bit of thought and architecture on both of those sites, you'd entirely solve the parking issues and the helipad lack of space.

You can also use structures on the ground around helipads to reduce their impact on the site using baffles / metal fins to ensure that the down thrust isn't being channelled towards buildings and passers-by.

markpb

Skedaddle wrote: »

It's weird how these structural issues seem to only apply in Ireland.

Maybe you're only aware of it being a problem in Ireland?

Patients face delays in receiving life-saving treatment because helicopters in the UK’s search-and-rescue fleet are barred from landing at many hospitals. Safety regulations prevent the new helicopters from landing on helipads on top of buildings, forcing pilots to set down casualties at alternative sites. [...] the Sikorsky S92 is not allowed to land on elevated helipads if the landing area is judged too small for the aircraft’s size in an emergency such as engine failure.

The Times

And for those people who still maintain that you can easily plop a helipad on the roof of a car park, here's what the UK CAA say:

However, heliports at rooftop level are generally more expensive to build as they require integral fire fighting facilities and have needed dedicated trained crews to operate the fire-fighting equipment (this dictated that the future ongoing operational costs were high)

Skedaddle

So clear surface car parks and stack the parking!

Multistory carparks aren't exactly mind blowing complex facilities and they would actually reduce people's need to walk long distances to the hospital, get wet in bad weather and so on.

Done right, you would potentially dramatically increase the availability of on site parking and also leave sufficient space for a simple helipad without the need for long walks through muddy sports fields and have a facility that's entirely in control of the hospital.

Ben D Bus

markpb wrote: »

Maybe you're only aware of it being a problem in Ireland?


The Times

And for those people who still maintain that you can easily plop a helipad on the roof of a car park, here's what the UK CAA say:

I don't know if anyone else ever watches 24 hours in A&E, a UK fly-on-the-wall documentary but whenever a heli lands on the rooftop helipad, there is always a fire crew fully kitted up for it's arrival. Rooftop helipads are not trivial.

I do agree that most air ambulance operations would ideally be operated by dedicated aircraft suitable to the task rather than heavy craft designed for long range SAR or military operations.