To trade or not to trade

TheDoc77

What factors influence your decision on when to trade in your old tractor for a newer version?

Grueller

TheDoc77 wrote: »

What factors influence your decision on when to trade in your old tractor for a newer version?

Finances

ganmo

How broken the current one is

simx

TheDoc77 wrote: »

What factors influence your decision on when to trade in your old tractor for a newer version?

If running/repair costs become higher than repayments on a new one

Dakota Dan

simx wrote: »

If running/repair costs become higher than repayments on a new one

Even with 30 year old tractors it would be impossible to see how that could happen. My 32 year old tractor is giving engine trouble if it isn't a cheap fix it will cost 2.4k to replace its engine with a reconditioned one. That will keep it going for many more years, to replace it with a new tractor same hp would cost way more in repayments.

mahoney_j

Repayment capacity
Cost of credit
Tax

patsy_mccabe

Maybe it's where I live or whatever, but none of my neighbours have ever traded in their old tractor. They've always kept them. A lot of nostalagia and memories with an old tractor.

tanko

Was mowing silage and a conrod came out through the side of the engine of the 165, bought a 590 then.

kay 9

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Maybe it's where I live or whatever, but none of my neighbours have ever traded in their old tractor. They've always kept them. A lot of nostalagia and memories with an old tractor.

Same with us, have the grandfather's tractor from his time, the father's and my own.
All still get used from time to time.
Wouldn't feel right selling them.
Others see them as iron, I as sentiments

Timmaay

mahoney_j wrote: »

Repayment capacity
Cost of credit
Tax

Had to get rid of the tractor here a month ago, priced up new for the craic, 40k with my own, dealer on about finance over 5yrs at a low interest rate etc. I could actually of afforded it (once milk prices don't utterly crash ha), but utterly no way in hell I could justify having a tractor sitting in the yard that stood me 70 to 75k. Instead managed to trade in for another tractor the same year, that was alot more suitable for us here.

Keepgrowing

Tyres

20silkcut

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Tyres

I put new tyres on a 1992 zetor 8111 last year. Like a new tractor some difference. It would pull a house down.
New tyres can completely re juvenate a tractor.

nhg

Originally inherited 2 tractors (Case JX75 & JD 2130) with my uncles farm, both in daily use... Recently my OH inherited 2 tractors (Ford 5610 & DB 990) from an elderly friend ...

Now have 4 tractors - going to keep the best 2 tractors which is nice as we will have a tractor from both my uncle & our good friend both of which will be used daily...

https://www.donedeal.ie/view/16770881
John Deere 2130

queueeye

Do you need it?
Can you afford it?
The reliability or lack of it in the machine to be traded. Sometimes the cost of repairs coupled maybe with tyres could go a long way towards the payment on a replacement machine.
Reading some posts here its as though an upgraded machine is a millstone around one's neck. Buy a good machine and it will have a good resale value.
And once again do you need it?

Dakota Dan

The only farmers that buy new tractors around here buy them to offset against tax.

anthony500_1

Dakota Dan wrote:

The only farmers that buy new tractors around here buy them to offset against tax.

Wouldn't it be grand to be making that much money to have that sorta money to offset against tax.

It's the stuff dreams are made off

Mooooo

Increase in power requirements,
if repair covers a number of repayments on a newer machine,
Number of hours worked increasing
If I can afford it

alps

Surprised no one has mentioned the extra profit it can make/maintain...its return in investment...

Gawddawggonnit

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Tyres

Do you buy a new milking parlor when the liners need changing?

Dakota Dan

anthony500_1 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be grand to be making that much money to have that sorta money to offset against tax.

It's the stuff dreams are made off

They are the ones that were milking over 100 cows in the 80's and still milking or the ones with old money. But they get loans and pay over a few years and offset the repayments against tax.

JustJoe7240

alps wrote: »

Surprised no one has mentioned the extra profit it can make/maintain...its return in investment...

One would have to imagine it's negligible? Given it's not used for contracting/ hired out etc

Cattlepen

You would have to ask yerself is it going to make your life easier or is it going to make your farming more profitable. If it doesn't do either of these then you are just changing for vanity or an idle mind. Changing to offset tax is a bit mad too. Sure pay the tax and put whatever is left in yer pocket. Or find a tax writeoff that will serve you better than a shiny new tractor that's going to little more than getting you a kiss at the macra dance

Bass Reeves

Cattlepen wrote: »

You would have to ask yerself is it going to make your life easier or is it going to make your farming more profitable. If it doesn't do either of these then you are just changing for vanity or an idle mind. Changing to offset tax is a bit mad too. Sure pay the tax and put whatever is left in yer pocket. Or find a tax writeoff that will serve you better than a shiny new tractor that's going to little more than getting you a kiss at the macra dance

IMO CP has nailed it. Fellas on about tyre and maintenance forget that these are allowable on a current year basis, the difference on a replacement is is spread over 8 years and could actually cause tax bill if accountants dealth with it completely right at times.

On revenue it can make this should be treated as contractor work and as such you are running a contracting outfit. Most farm can be run with a lot less machinery than they have.

Dakota Dan

joecass123 wrote: »

One would have to imagine it's negligible? Given it's not used for contracting/ hired out etc

Exactly, a new tractor will hardly increase income if it's just for farming and sitting in the yard like an ornament most of the day.

Dakota Dan

When those two New Zealander's came to Ireland in the 90's to promote kiwi style dairying they said an investment in machinery was an investment in rust. Their advice was to use a contractor and invest in cows and grass instead.

Mooooo

Shir who gives a ****e who has what in their yard. If you can afford it and want it for whatever reason be it something more comfortable or because you stick up 1k hours a year or more and want to trade every 5 years or whatever. Know of 2 brothers milking the bones of 1000 cows between em and 1 tractor between em as well. Know another lad with a brand new tractor and 100 cows. All good operators just different preferences. OP figure out what you need and want yourself and go from there

cute geoge

Contractors dont work for nothing either though !!!
This a rough breakdown what a contractor hour charges for 130hp tractor ie the charge for spreading with a 2300 would be €45 per hour ,give the driver €12 ,diesel approx 10Litres at 70 cent -€7 ,tyres and maintenance -€3 so this leaves €23 to cover tractor and tank depreciation .So if a farmer had 300 hrs work it would leave €6900 to cover the cost of tractor and implements .I know plenty of farmers and their bill from contractor for spreading slurry is bigger then the bill for silage

Bass Reeves

Mooooo wrote: »

Shir who gives a ****e who has what in their yard. If you can afford it and want it for whatever reason be it something more comfortable or because you stick up 1k hours a year or more and want to trade every 5 years or whatever. Know of 2 brothers milking the bones of 1000 cows between em and 1 tractor between em as well. Know another lad with a brand new tractor and 100 cows. All good operators just different preferences. OP figure out what you need and want yourself and go from there

Very few actually but it pisses me off to see a lad with 100K+ invested in machinery turning over way less than that and complaining taht there is no money in farming. Yes lads can be under mechanized as well and go through drudgery when a goodish tractor or a second one would make workload easier.

OP was asking what influences our decisions most are just showing where those decisions come from or should come from

squinn2912

kay 9 wrote: »

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Maybe it's where I live or whatever, but none of my neighbours have ever traded in their old tractor. They've always kept them. A lot of nostalagia and memories with an old tractor.

Same with us, have the grandfather's tractor from his time, the father's and my own.
All still get used from time to time.
Wouldn't feel right selling them.
Others see them as iron, I as sentiments

Similar take here we still have the first two old masseys and got one done up like new. My granda bought it and my dad taught me to drive on it. Going nowhere. But a few others inbetween have been traded in when we got 4 WD tractors

Bass Reeves

cute geoge wrote: »

Contractors dont work for nothing either though !!!
This a rough breakdown what a contractor hour charges for 130hp tractor ie the charge for spreading with a 2300 would be €45 per hour ,give the driver €12 ,diesel approx 10Litres at 70 cent -€7 ,tyres and maintenance -€3 so this leaves €23 to cover tractor and tank depreciation .So if a farmer had 300 hrs work it would leave €6900 to cover the cost of tractor and implements .I know plenty of farmers and their bill from contractor for spreading slurry is bigger then the bill for silage

Your figures fail to account for true cost, vat will account for 5.4 euro of it, If he is paying 12/hour his actual cost will be up on 18/hour by the time he accounts for employer PRSI, holiday pay and bank holidays. The contractor will be vat registered so may save a bit on diesel and machinery cost through vat reclaim.

Last year on a 70 acre farm stocked at near nitrates levels. Contracting costs are as follows, my silage and slurry costs were about 2500 for silage baling and drawing and stacking (silage is raked and chopped). 1350 for slurry (I can deduct about 350 for low emission slurry GLAS). Fencing 150 euro. Hedge cutting 850 euro( about 6-8 years since it was done and complete farm covered. Stock transport about 800-1K

I have gone back to a single tractor operation it is a 2wd CX80. I had a 2nd 4wd tractor but running costs were horrendus and maintenance an issue. I concentrate on stock and stock management. I consider that I could run an drystock operation 2-3 times its size on an 8 hour day and 2-3 hours Saturday and Sunday

Mooooo

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Very few actually but it pisses me off to see a lad with 100K+ invested in machinery turning over way less than that and complaining taht there is no money in farming. Yes lads can be under mechanized as well and go through drudgery when a goodish tractor or a second one would make workload easier.

OP was asking what influences our decisions most are just showing where those decisions come from or should come from

I understand that, just s few comments about people having machinery in the yard for show etc when who knows what they need em for or want em for etc. Loader and tractor here are 32 and 22 years old, had to put 5k into the tractor last year if it was anymore I would have been looking at replacing. Still spend minimum over 15k on contractors between silage and slurry mainly, used them occasionally for fert but the delay in coming pushed my cutting date, need the tractor for pumping slurry due to a number of small tanks and a tower as well as agitating, diet feeder but not so much anymore and fert/ spraying, tilling when reseeding and transporting stock. Loader does all feeding cleaning out fencing as well as brings stone when draining etc.

White Clover

joecass123 wrote: »

One would have to imagine it's negligible? Given it's not used for contracting/ hired out etc

Not necessarily. I have bought 2 tractors here in the last 4 years, a 2004 and a 1992. Both have appreciated in value since.

Dakota Dan

White Clover wrote: »

Not necessarily. I have bought 2 tractors here in the last 4 years, a 2004 and a 1992. Both have appreciated in value since.

But we are talking about new tractors.

White Clover

Dakota Dan wrote: »

But we are talking about new tractors.

Did the OP not state newer tractors?
Both my tractors were newer than the ones they replaced and my post above was in response to a statement by another poster.

I could give you a few recommendations for a replacement for the 7610 if you like😉

Dakota Dan

White Clover wrote: »

Did the OP not state newer tractors?
Both my tractors were newer than the ones they replaced and my post above was in response to a statement by another poster.

I could give you a few recommendations for a replacement for the 7610 if you like😉

It's a case 1494.

X6.430macman

Can't understand the mindset of people dead set against any machinery investments at all, surely having a yoke you can sit up on and it will start and have some creature comforts in it is great and worth any amount of money instead of saying 'invest in cows and grass, get contractor to do everything'

lalababa

When Johnny up the road gets one!

Bass Reeves

White Clover wrote: »

Not necessarily. I have bought 2 tractors here in the last 4 years, a 2004 and a 1992. Both have appreciated in value since.

Very few tractors appreciate in value when bought in. When it dose its tends to be due to economic factors at the time or picking up a bargain or trading from the UK. I saw a tractor on DD a few months ago that was 2-3K below its real value and it was coming out of a machinery dealer. But for 90% of tractors traded they will seldom be more valuable than you bought them. TBF to tractors especially stockman type tractors a good few hold there value excellently however you still have wear and tear on them. Even stand in the yard if taxed and insure it will cost 350/year minimum

X6.430macman wrote: »

Can't understand the mindset of people dead set against any machinery investments at all, surely having a yoke you can sit up on and it will start and have some creature comforts in it is great and worth any amount of money instead of saying 'invest in cows and grass, get contractor to do everything'

I for one am not dead set against machinery investment but a yoke that will start all the time and function in your envoirment need not cost a fortune. As well you have to look at the economics of the system and if after investing in more machinery or creature comforts if you find you are losing money you should not be blaming farming.

I see lads running systems smaller or slightly larger than mine having another 20k tied up in a tractor and a slurry spreader to do what is costing me sub 1500 euro in contractor charges, having a 10+K jeep and box and spending a fortune in diesel because they have a mantra that they need it to move cattle. I agree that at time you are at contractors mercy regarding work but some lads expect to ring a contractor this evening to have him spreading slurry tommorow morning, and tomorrow is Sunday.

Timmaay

Dakota Dan wrote: »

It's a case 1494.

Why in gods name would you want to replace that . Got a 1394 here, my dad got it in 1990 as the main loader tractor, loader off it since 98 but been the perfect 2nd tractor since. I can nearly guarantee it will still be tipping away in 20 yrs when most modern yokes in the scrapyard. After getting stung with a bad modern tractor last yr, I'd happily pickup likes of a 4WD 1594 with a loader and use it as the main tractor here moving forward, clean ones rare as hens teeth though.

White Clover

Dakota Dan wrote: »

It's a case 1494.

Sorry Dan I must have imagined it was a 7610😉
I had a fair idea timmaay would be on defending the 94 series case's! In fairness they seem to be a good tractor.

patsy_mccabe

Say for example you are a part-time farmer and working off farm. If you are in the top tax bracket of 50 % then when you are 8 years off retirement from the day job, surely buying a new or newish tractor is not a bad idea at all. You will effectively buy it at a 50% discount when tax allowance are taken into account and you have a good tractor then to see you well into your retirement.

Bass Reeves

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Say for example you are a part-time farmer and working off farm. If you are in the top tax bracket of 50 % then when you are 8 years off retirement from the day job, surely buying a new or newish tractor is not a bad idea at all. You will effectively buy it at a 50% discount when tax allowance are taken into account and you have a good tractor then to see you well into your retirement.

When you are eight years from your retirement you will be in your mid-late 50's. You can put money into a pension fund(low risk low return) and draw 1.5 times your salary tax free on retirement. However if you were well provided pension wise and tax was an issue then yes it would be an option. I am kinda of that stage but tax will still be an issue post retirement to an extent. But it is not a full 50% USC is not allowable on capital/wear and tear allowances I think so you are back to around 45%. However I would spend on fencing and making your yard suitable for a one (old man ) operation ahead of it.

Dakota Dan

Timmaay wrote: »

Why in gods name would you want to replace that . Got a 1394 here, my dad got it in 1990 as the main loader tractor, loader off it since 98 but been the perfect 2nd tractor since. I can nearly guarantee it will still be tipping away in 20 yrs when most modern yokes in the scrapyard. After getting stung with a bad modern tractor last yr, I'd happily pickup likes of a 4WD 1594 with a loader and use it as the main tractor here moving forward, clean ones rare as hens teeth though.

But but I'm not replacing it, it's a trusty steed. I was only giving an example how repairing an old tractor will not cost the same as repayment in a new tractor but now I think the poster meant a better secondhand tractor and not brand new. My apologies to that posted if that's what you meant.

White Clover

nhg wrote: »

Originally inherited 2 tractors (Case JX75 & JD 2130) with my uncles farm, both in daily use... Recently my OH inherited 2 tractors (Ford 5610 & DB 990) from an elderly friend ...

Now have 4 tractors - going to keep the best 2 tractors which is nice as we will have a tractor from both my uncle & our good friend both of which will be used daily...



https://www.donedeal.ie/view/16770881
John Deere 2130

You're so lucky! If I inherited 10 tractors I don't think I'd sell one. That's me though!
Is the John Deere owned for long?

davidk1394

For me its when a machine becomes troublesome or has high hours and big repairs have to be done. Just have the 2 tractors here, the 1394 which is still ticking like a mouses heart and the claas. When the claas is paid for in about 30 months I think I might trade it for a newer version. Electrics and corrosion are the biggest killer in all new machines. The case is going for a refurbishment next year and have no intention of selling her. I love driving it. Thinking of buying a ford 7810 also as their a solid machine and easy to fix.
A farmer I work for trades his tractor every 7 years due to hours and tax and he likes comfort. He upgraded the tank and agitator aswell. He says he may aswell be paying for them rather than paying tax. Another farmer I work for wouldn't spend money on a thing. It just depends on the person and what they want.

White Clover

queueeye wrote: »

Do you need it?
Can you afford it?
The reliability or lack of it in the machine to be traded. Sometimes the cost of repairs coupled maybe with tyres could go a long way towards the payment on a replacement machine.
Reading some posts here its as though an upgraded machine is a millstone around one's neck. Buy a good machine and it will have a good resale value.
And once again do you need it?

What about if you like tractors? I have more tractors than I need. I will buy more too and I can't see myself selling any! These will be a part of my pension....if I could bring myself to sell them then!

MIKEKC

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Say for example you are a part-time farmer and working off farm. If you are in the top tax bracket of 50 % then when you are 8 years off retirement from the day job, surely buying a new or newish tractor is not a bad idea at all. You will effectively buy it at a 50% discount when tax allowance are taken into account and you have a good tractor then to see you well into your retirement.

You didn't mention depreciation over the eight years

Who2

Some lads love machinery and others don't. Personally I have the basics and a bit, I couldn't afford a lot of them for years but I've been buying bits when I could afford to and while they are functioning as I need they won't be changed. I can't see the farm providing a financial justification to buy a brand new tractor any time soon but some day if the money was there and I had all other angles covered I probably would buy new, but I would only be fooling myself trying to convince myself that it would make me money on a suckler farm. Moving on to a shuttle I presume would be a justifiable reason for any lad getting on and the knees getting shook.

nhg

White Clover wrote: »

You're so lucky! If I inherited 10 tractors I don't think I'd sell one. That's me though!
Is the John Deere owned for long?

I have it 6 years and I was looking at a photo the other day that was 10 yrs old and it was in that photo...

If finances allowed I wouldn't be selling any either, I'd be getting the JD and the DB 990 refurbished & we haven't enough of sheds to store them all indoors...

patsy_mccabe

MIKEKC wrote: »

You didn't mention depreciation over the eight years

Capital allowances over the 8 years, same thing as depreciation, is it not?

tanko

Anyone know how much the last of the 390t and 398 4WD shuttle tractors cost brand new?