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N2 - Ashbourne to Kilmoon Cross [route options published]

  • 05-01-2018 4:51pm
    #1
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII have allocated €25k to begin work on a new major scheme between Ashbourne and Kilmoon Cross on the N2.

    Given traffic volumes, this will either be motorway standard or 2+2 dual carriageway standard.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Shane Ross confirmed today that this scheme will be 6km long and that Meath County Council are now procuring consultants to advance this through planning and design.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donegal Storm


    Assuming Kilmoon Cross is the traffic lights by Ratoath? The existing road is already very straight and flat so should be fairly straight forward to upgrade


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Will it be an online upgrade?


  • Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭lovelyhurler


    Assuming Kilmoon Cross is the traffic lights by Ratoath? The existing road is already very straight and flat so should be fairly straight forward to upgrade


    Kilmoon, is the next junction on from that - the turn off for Duleek/Drogheda.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It's hard to say what'll be done here yet. AADT along this stretch is 15-16k, bearing in mind the upper limit for capacity of a 2+2 is around 20k they may go straight to motorway here and extend the M2 past Kilmoon Cross. This would involve grade seperating the Rath Roundabout also.

    We may get more clarity on this later in the year when options are published.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    marno21 wrote: »
    It's hard to say what'll be done here yet. AADT along this stretch is 15-16k, bearing in mind the upper limit for capacity of a 2+2 is around 20k they may go straight to motorway here and extend the M2 past Kilmoon Cross. This would involve grade seperating the Rath Roundabout also.

    We may get more clarity on this later in the year when options are published.
    I could see that ballooning given there's two toll routes in relatively close proximity and a Motorway upgrade would cannibalise some of that traffic. Not a bad idea considering capacity issues on the M1 and N3 tbh


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,268 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    If it's only 6 kms they should just extend the M2. Wouldn't cost much extra expense.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,870 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    I could see that ballooning given there's two toll routes in relatively close proximity and a Motorway upgrade would cannibalise some of that traffic. Not a bad idea considering capacity issues on the M1 and N3 tbh

    Erm, it's not the government's responsibility to protect toll revenue for private companies.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Erm, it's not the government's responsibility to protect toll revenue for private companies.
    Where's the railway to Navan?

    It isn't their responsibility, but they will still do it without saying.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The state has to subsidise a minimum traffic guarantee on the M3. It was expected to reach those minimum levels soon enough but any potential return to needing to would have to be factored in to costs


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    L1011 wrote: »
    The state has to subsidise a minimum traffic guarantee on the M3. It was expected to reach those minimum levels soon enough but any potential return to needing to would have to be factored in to costs
    It's not a subsidy though. The state was always going to be required to pay the full cost of building the road (plus maintenance for 30 years as part of the PPP), just that money was to come from the toll revenue in the first instance and exchequer funds for the balance. If there is a subsidy, the toll payers are subsidising the exchequer.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    It's not a subsidy though. The state was always going to be required to pay the full cost of building the road (plus maintenance for 30 years as part of the PPP), just that money was to come from the toll revenue in the first instance and exchequer funds for the balance. If there is a subsidy, the toll payers are subsidising the exchequer.

    Only two toll road projects have minimum traffic guarantees and neither are based on the basis you suppose there. And tolls aren't paid by "the state" anyway.

    The N25 Waterford Bypass is very, very likely to end up in a massive deficit for the consortium - but it has no guarantee.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    L1011 wrote: »
    Only two toll road projects have minimum traffic guarantees and neither are based on the basis you suppose there. And tolls aren't paid by "the state" anyway.
    What do you think the basis I suppose is? I never said that tolls are paid by the state.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Pete_Cavan wrote:
    The state was always going to be required to pay the full cost of building the road (plus maintenance for 30 years as part of the PPP), just that money was to come from the toll revenue in the first instance and exchequer funds for the balance
    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I never said that tolls are paid by the state.
    ??


    Will the new scheme provide safe cycling infrastructure from Ashbourne northwards?


  • Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭BelfastVanMan


    Pete_Cavan wrote:
    The state was always going to be required to pay the full cost of building the road (plus maintenance for 30 years as part of the PPP), just that money was to come from the toll revenue in the first instance and exchequer funds for the balance
    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I never said that tolls are paid by the state.
    ??


    Will the new scheme provide safe cycling infrastructure from Ashbourne northwards?

    Ideally, the old road could be made into a pseudo-type 3 single carriageway, by sacrificing the (narrow) hard shoulders, and with the reduced 80kph limit that will come with the downgrade to presumably the R135, that should suffice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭BelfastVanMan


    Forgot to add that this would mean segregated foot/cyclepaths. Much like the new sections of N86 in Kerry. But with a lower 80kph speed limit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    ??
    I hope you aren't suggesting that "money was to come from the toll revenue" means that the state pay the tolls.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Given the volumes using the N2 now, there is a strong case to be made for extending the M2, which will involve an upgrade or replacement of the existing Pillo Hotel junction, putting in a dedicated junction/access for Tayto Park that does not use the inadequate existing local roads, and extending the motorway to beyond Kilmoon Cross, with a sensible junction structure for the Drogheda road, and given the proximity of the next scheme North, the Slane Bypass, it would make sense to ensure that the link between the 2 schemes is appropriate.

    Unfortunately, consultants are notoriously bad at listening to local knowledge and experience, and the result is a solution that is subsequently found to be inadequate, as has been found with the access to the M2 from Ratoath, and Ashbourne, which could have been put in with a much more effective solution than the mess that became the 9 Mile Stone roundabout.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Given the volumes using the N2 now, there is a strong case to be made for extending the M2, which will involve an upgrade or replacement of the existing Pillo Hotel junction, putting in a dedicated junction/access for Tayto Park that does not use the inadequate existing local roads, and extending the motorway to beyond Kilmoon Cross, with a sensible junction structure for the Drogheda road, and given the proximity of the next scheme North, the Slane Bypass, it would make sense to ensure that the link between the 2 schemes is appropriate.

    Unfortunately, consultants are notoriously bad at listening to local knowledge and experience, and the result is a solution that is subsequently found to be inadequate, as has been found with the access to the M2 from Ratoath, and Ashbourne, which could have been put in with a much more effective solution than the mess that became the 9 Mile Stone roundabout.

    It seems to me that the plan is to extend the M2 from it's current terminus to north of Kilmoon Cross with the appropriate junctions along the way.

    Have you heard otherwise?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,268 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Slane could also be M2 then? Logical.

    Or that would be a bit too sensible?


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Slane could also be M2 then? Logical.

    Or that would be a bit too sensible?
    No. Volumes at Slane are too low for motorway.

    The original plan for the N2 was to divert traffic to the M1 from Dublin to Ardee. This short section is being progressed due to safety concerns and high volumes along the route. It's short and cheap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,268 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    What a load of nonsense. Large parts of the US interstate network are way below volume....didn't stop them being built. The destination is the important thing.

    Build the motorway past Slane (wide median of course) and then to the border to Derry.

    Slane will soon be Dublin suburb so makes COMPLETE sense to build motorway now.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    What a load of nonsense. Large parts of the US interstate network are way below volume....didn't stop them being built. The destination is the important thing.

    Build the motorway past Slane (wide median of course) and then to the border to Derry.

    Slane will soon be Dublin suburb so makes COMPLETE sense to build motorway now.
    Slane is not in the US. There are design standards for Irish roads and building motorways to carry that volume of traffic will not pass the required project appraisal criteria.

    Unless subsequent posts are to do with the N2 Ashbourne-Kilmoon Cross, in line with reality and Irish design standards, please start another thread for fantasies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,268 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    marno21 wrote: »
    Slane is not in the US. There are design standards for Irish roads and building motorways to carry that volume of traffic will not pass the required project appraisal criteria.

    Unless subsequent posts are to do with the N2 Ashbourne-Kilmoon Cross, in line with reality and Irish design standards, please start another thread for fantasies.

    I'll deal with real life reality, thank you very much :rolleyes:

    What i'm saying is common sense and you are mod of a ROAD forum :cool:

    Bigger, better, faster roads. No need for a new thread. It applies to the N2 as any other national route.


  • Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭BelfastVanMan


    marno21 wrote: »
    Slane is not in the US. There are design standards for Irish roads and building motorways to carry that volume of traffic will not pass the required project appraisal criteria.

    Unless subsequent posts are to do with the N2 Ashbourne-Kilmoon Cross, in line with reality and Irish design standards, please start another thread for fantasies.

    I'll deal with real life reality, thank you very much :rolleyes:

    What i'm saying is common sense and you are mod of a ROAD forum :cool:

    Bigger, better, faster roads. No need for a new thread. It applies to the N2 as any other national route.

    Dear Lord....


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donegal Storm


    You could make the argument that the reason traffic is so low north of Slane is simply because of Slane and Ardee being so awkward to get through, provide a bypass of both and suddenly traffic might be a lot closer to needing a motorway.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    marno21 wrote: »
    It seems to me that the plan is to extend the M2 from it's current terminus to north of Kilmoon Cross with the appropriate junctions along the way.

    Have you heard otherwise?


    Nothing official, it's way too early for that level of information, but living locally, it's not too hard to see where the pressure points are, and what needs to be addressed with a long term view, rather than a sticking plaster fix that doesn't provide a result.

    There are significant plans in the making for Tayto Park, both in terms of additional attractions, and (hopefully) a hotel/conference facility, both of which will increase the already significant traffic to and from the Park, and the local roads are already over loaded. The Hotel plan was withdrawn a while ago because of the traffic issues, and from what's been seen locally, it would be a super additional resource and employment for the local area when constructed.

    The Primatestown junction (in the middle of the section) is already over capacity by a significant factor, and causes long delays at peak periods, and that's without any incidents. There is very little space around that pinch point for widening or realignment, so a different solution will be needed, and finding a different route will be tricky due to the topography to the east of the N2 and ribbon development to the west.

    Kilmoon cross junction is at present an accident black spot due to the high speeds on the N2, and the volume of traffic coming from Drogheda, so that has to change, and a significant volume for Navan uses the N2 as far as the Kentstown junction, which is another difficult junction safety wise.

    From there to Slane, it will need a review to ensure compatibility with the Slane Bypass, but the volumes are not massive over that section, so a less significant problem.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Nothing official, it's way too early for that level of information, but living locally, it's not too hard to see where the pressure points are, and what needs to be addressed with a long term view, rather than a sticking plaster fix that doesn't provide a result.

    There are significant plans in the making for Tayto Park, both in terms of additional attractions, and (hopefully) a hotel/conference facility, both of which will increase the already significant traffic to and from the Park, and the local roads are already over loaded. The Hotel plan was withdrawn a while ago because of the traffic issues, and from what's been seen locally, it would be a super additional resource and employment for the local area when constructed.

    The Primatestown junction (in the middle of the section) is already over capacity by a significant factor, and causes long delays at peak periods, and that's without any incidents. There is very little space around that pinch point for widening or realignment, so a different solution will be needed, and finding a different route will be tricky due to the topography to the east of the N2 and ribbon development to the west.

    Kilmoon cross junction is at present an accident black spot due to the high speeds on the N2, and the volume of traffic coming from Drogheda, so that has to change, and a significant volume for Navan uses the N2 as far as the Kentstown junction, which is another difficult junction safety wise.

    From there to Slane, it will need a review to ensure compatibility with the Slane Bypass, but the volumes are not massive over that section, so a less significant problem.

    For safety reasons alone they should have Type 2 carriage way from the end of the kilmoon project to the Slane bypass


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    I can see some serious objections being raised to a type 2 all the way to Slane, there are a lot of minor roads and premises in the section beyond Kentstown that would have problems with a central median closure, and there are also a lot of field access points that would be problematic. That said, it would seem to me to be the right solution, there is no way that the volumes on the N2 are going to decrease with time.

    I just hope that the consultants who are tasked with preparing the report do take on board the local comments and opinions, when the M2 was planned, they completely ignored the local comments about the provision of an interchange to serve the Ratoath road, with the result of massive rat run traffic now going through Baltrasna to and from the Nine Mile Stone interchange, on a road that is totally unsuitable for the volumes that are using it, which is now causing problems with pedestrian safety. At that time, it would also have been very easy, and helpful to put a feeder road from the Ratoath Road in to the Ashborune side, which would have made future developments on the west of the town a lot easier to manage.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It looks like this scheme will include an extension of the M2 to beyond Kilmoon Cross with grade seperation of the roundabout at the Pillo Hotel and presumably a grade seperated junction somewhere near Kilmoon Cross. It'll be offline, there is far too much volume to use the existing road and it's got accesses along it anyway.

    Slane-Kilmoon Cross is a potential post 2027 upgrade but it not being TEN-T won't help it.


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