Compassionate leave query

Masala

Hi.... this is a query on behalf of my sister
She works as an SNA wing dept of Education. Over the Xmas holidays.. her mother in law passed away. She feels that she is entitled to 1xDay compassionate leave. How does this work when you are off on holidays like thus?? Does the fact that she is already off on paid hoidays cover this Leave as well and so cancel itself out???

She not back to work til next week and so can't check it out it then. Just trying to see if anyone in PS had similiar experience

Many thanks

Xterminator

Hi Op

I had a look here

http://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/downloads/relate/relate_2015_12.pdf

it does not appear that your sister would have any rights to leave. It allows for emergency absences from work; and is not like being sick on your scheduled holidays.

ibarelycare

There is nothing in Irish employment law about compassionate leave. Is there something in her contract about it? If not, then she's not entitled to anything.

tiredblondie

Unless it's in her contract as others have stated then she is not entitled to anything - my own company offers "up to 3 days" for parents in law which is good of them.

TBH, the fact that she was already on leave at the time, and if she was entitled to it, would you really go to the bother though for 1 day?! I'd be more concerned about how my other half was feeling / coping during this time to be concerned about me "losing" a day of my holidays!

Masala

tiredblondie wrote: »

Unless it's in her contract as others have stated then she is not entitled to anything - my own company offers "up to 3 days" for parents in law which is good of them.

TBH, the fact that she was already on leave at the time, and if she was entitled to it, would you really go to the bother though for 1 day?! I'd be more concerned about how my other half was feeling / coping during this time to be concerned about me "losing" a day of my holidays!

I agree thoroughly..... its not important in the scheme of things!

Just wondering what scenario in Public Service on same. If that happened to me on my 10 days holidays off in private sector... I could adjust my holidays to 9 days Holidays and 1 CL. Hence keep 1 x Holidays for later.

davo10

Masala wrote: »

I agree thoroughly..... its not important in the scheme of things!

Just wondering what scenario in Public Service on same. If that happened to me on my 10 days holidays off in private sector... I could adjust my holidays to 9 days Holidays and 1 CL. Hence keep 1 x Holidays for later.

Hard to see how that would apply in the private sector unless it says so in your contract. As others have posted, it is not an entitlement. Effectively you are requesting an extra day of holiday leave, not many private employers would entertain that request.

tiredblondie

tiredblondie wrote: »

Unless it's in her contract as others have stated then she is not entitled to anything - my own company offers "up to 3 days" for parents in law which is good of them.

TBH, the fact that she was already on leave at the time, and if she was entitled to it, would you really go to the bother though for 1 day?! I'd be more concerned about how my other half was feeling / coping during this time to be concerned about me "losing" a day of my holidays!

That's the public sector mentality though. Always out for their entitlement and want every benefit going.

GalwayGrrrrrl

The idea of compassionate leave is to allow you to attend the funeral and look after yourself the first few days of bereavement. Unless the funeral is delayed or abroad it takes the p*ss to look for a day “lost” if the person died over the Christmas break.

Andrew Beef

Masala wrote: »

Hi.... this is a query on behalf of my sister
She works as an SNA wing dept of Education. Over the Xmas holidays.. her mother in law passed away. She feels that she is entitled to 1xDay compassionate leave. How does this work when you are off on holidays like thus?? Does the fact that she is already off on paid hoidays cover this Leave as well and so cancel itself out???

She not back to work til next week and so can't check it out it then. Just trying to see if anyone in PS had similiar experience

Many thanks

Everything that is wrong with the public sector summed up in one post

Masala

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Everything that is wrong with the public sector summed up in one post

I don't think so..... she entitled to get what she entitled to. If it was an entitlement in private sector.... People wouldn't be leaving it behind them.

peteb2

Masala wrote:

I don't think so..... she entitled to get what she entitled to. If it was my entitlement in private sector.... I wouldn't be leaving it behind me.

Which in this case is..... nothing!

Stheno

Masala wrote: »

I don't think so..... she entitled to get what she entitled to. If it was my entitlement in private sector.... I wouldn't be leaving it behind me.

Read the relevant circular here

https://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Services/Breaks-Leave/Brief-Absences/

In laws are covered under bereavement leave but it has to be approved in advance

I'm also unsure if it applies during holidays

Sue Pa Key Pa

It would be the furthest thing from my mind at a time of loss

ScouseMouse

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Everything that is wrong with the public sector summed up in one post

Agree completely, this is taking the mickey

Masala wrote: »

I don't think so..... she entitled to get what she entitled to. If it was an entitlement in private sector.... People wouldn't be leaving it behind them.

It's not. Its taking the mickey.

Snotty

Masala wrote: »

I don't think so..... she entitled to get what she entitled to. If it was an entitlement in private sector.... People wouldn't be leaving it behind them.

Rubbish, even having the neck to ask the question, firstly when it's an in-law and secondly when you are in a profession that gets the most holidays, it just does not happen in the private sector, that mentality does not exist.

Snowseer

Compassionate leave is so that people who suffered some loss cant take time away from work to grieve / come to terms with things / get stuff in order.

If they are not in work at the time, it's not necessary.

How anybody could look for an extra day of holidays in these circumstances is beyond me.

Sikpupi

Snotty wrote: »

Rubbish, even having the neck to ask the question, firstly when it's an in-law and secondly when you are in a profession that gets the most holidays, it just does not happen in the private sector, that mentality does not exist.

Don't know about that.... I have had staff asking for leave for husbands Aunts, wife's Grannny, etc. Private sector workers well able to ask as well...

Stheno

Mod

If you've nothing useful to add, then please don't post

Snowseer

Sikpupi wrote: »

Don't know about that.... I have had staff asking for leave for husbands Aunts, wife's Grannny, etc. Private sector workers well able to ask as well...

Think that would be discretionary. I took some hours off for my aunt's funeral. it was my dad's sister, so I had to be there with my dad. My job allowed it to be taken without issue.

Saying that, I made up the hours. So - it really is down to the employee / employer.

Stheno

Snowseer wrote: »

Think that would be discretionary. I took some hours off for my aunt's funeral. it was my dad's sister, so I had to be there with my dad. My job allowed it to be taken without issue.

Saying that, I made up the hours. So - it really is down to the employee / employer.

See the link I posted the doe allow three days bereavement leave for snas if a parent in law dies

However it also states it has to be approved in advance

davo10

I think this has less to do with any sense of emotional loss, and a lot to do with a sense of annual leave loss.

LaLa2004

Snowseer wrote: »

Think that would be discretionary. I took some hours off for my aunt's funeral. it was my dad's sister, so I had to be there with my dad. My job allowed it to be taken without issue.

Saying that, I made up the hours. So - it really is down to the employee / employer.

Nobody seems to be picking up on the fact that this person is a Special Needs Assistant to.a child who needs help to function in the school environment..

In the SNA's absence, the other SNA's, if any, would be required to cover. This would mess up that day for a number of students with needs.

It's not like the work can be done at a later date.

Caranica

That would be relevant if the bereavement occurred during term time but it happened during the holidays, no time off work was necessary yet the question is about being entitled to a credit of one day as they'd have had a day off if it happened during the school term

irishgrover

I'd someone is entitled to compassionate, or any other type of leave, then of course they should avail of it. Companies, private or public, have leave policy. Taking that leave, if you are entitled to it, is exactly that, an entitlement.
If you are sick during your holidays and it impacts your holidays, and your entitlement allows it, then you should reclassify your leave type when you have the opportunity. Same goes for retirement or any other type of leave....
I don't understand what the **** goes on in people heads that have a problem with this. It's a very simple concept.... If you are entitled to it then you are entitled to it.....

davo10

irishgrover wrote: »

I'd someone is entitled to compassionate, or any other type of leave, then of course they should avail of it. Companies, private or public, have leave policy. Taking that leave, if you are entitled to it, is exactly that, an entitlement.
If you are sick during your holidays and it impacts your holidays, and your entitlement allows it, then you should reclassify your leave type when you have the opportunity. Same goes for retirement or any other type of leave....
I don't understand what the **** goes on in people heads that have a problem with this. It's a very simple concept.... If you are entitled to it then you are entitled to it.....

Eh, if you are sick during annual leave, you have legal rights in relation to annual leave. There is no entitlement to compassionate leave and where it is provided for in employment contract, as others have pointed out, it must be applied for in advance. Don't really know what you are on about, that makes two of us though.

myshirt

irishgrover wrote: »

I'd someone is entitled to compassionate, or any other type of leave, then of course they should avail of it. Companies, private or public, have leave policy. Taking that leave, if you are entitled to it, is exactly that, an entitlement.
If you are sick during your holidays and it impacts your holidays, and your entitlement allows it, then you should reclassify your leave type when you have the opportunity. Same goes for retirement or any other type of leave....
I don't understand what the **** goes on in people heads that have a problem with this. It's a very simple concept.... If you are entitled to it then you are entitled to it.....

Abso bloody f#cking lootly not. Do you realise the impact of this scumbag behaviour on young people dealing with this legacy of a gravy train?

It's shameful. If you are sick during your annual leave, tough sh't, it happens, deal with it ffs, instead of milking everyone else with this culture that leaves a public sector bill on the table to remove the dignity of a decent job for young people, saddle them with your bill, and remove the empowerment of young people knowing they can take care of their families or do something as wild as own a home.

Instead it's a no to that, and a yes to paying you for sick leave while you were off anyway? What kind of sick demented logic is that? It's pure scumbag behaviour and is utterly shameful. A right disgrace of a post.

Sikpupi

davo10 wrote: »

Eh, if you are sick during annual leave, you have legal rights in relation to annual leave. There is no entitlement to compassionate leave and where it is provided for in employment contract, as others have pointed out, it must be applied for in advance. Don't really know what you are on about, that makes two of us though.

I think that's what OP was asking - just that asking! Am sure that he wasn't looking to be crucified for it. He sure knows now

mrsgiller

Compassionate leave can only be given at time of bereavement, it can not be added on to the end of any period of leave. If a day or two of annual leave was planned and then bereavement happened there should be option to cancel leave and take compassionate leave.

irishgrover

myshirt wrote: »

Abso bloody f#cking lootly not. Do you realise the impact of this scumbag behaviour on young people dealing with this legacy of a gravy train?

It's shameful. If you are sick during your annual leave, tough sh't, it happens, deal with it ffs, instead of milking everyone else with this culture that leaves a public sector bill on the table to remove the dignity of a decent job for young people, saddle them with your bill, and remove the empowerment of young people knowing they can take care of their families or do something as wild as own a home.

Instead it's a no to that, and a yes to paying you for sick leave while you were off anyway? What kind of sick demented logic is that? It's pure scumbag behaviour and is utterly shameful. A right disgrace of a post.

OK, I'll try to explain it in very simple terms for you with simple examples to try to move you from your current position of "sick demented, shameful scumbag behavior, disgraceful posting"..... (on a side note, having such strong views about things may cause stress and health issues :-)

I work for a company. I have an employment contract with them. Part of the contract is that I work for the company. In return they give me money. In addition to the money, they give me various benefits, such as various insurance policies, potential bonuses, and various leave, including sick pay, holiday pay etc. Some of this is explicitly stated in my employment contract (eg salary and holiday entitlements). Some of it is in my contract because it is mandated by employment law. Some of it is mandated by the policy and procedures adopted by and published in various handbooks or policy documents, for example Leave policy, travel policy, work from home policy, expense policy etc, and this goes above and beyond statutory obligations.

I, as a potential candidate, when interviewing with the company took all of this into account when deciding if I wanted to work for them or not. The company in return took into account my experience and demands when deciding if they wanted to offer me a job.

I hope this makes sense to you so far.....

One of my management team has been on "holidays" since Christmas, except that they have not been relaxing at home. They have been sick and in hospital. Our leave policy dictates that the individual in question should retroactively change their historic leave from "Holiday" to "sick" leave.
Why? Simples, because there were sick. There were not on holidays, relaxing and enjoying life, there were incapacitated.

This makes absolute sense to all parties. For the person who needs to change their leave it makes sense because part of the deal that the company made with the individual is that we will pay you if your are sick. Indeed the policy explicitly states that if you were supposed to be on one type of leave but unexpectedly needed to move to another type of leave then we, the company, will facilitate that. At it's most simple and basic level the reason it is the right this to do is because it is what the company agreed to do, and it forms part of the reason that the employee joined the company or will stay with the company.

From a company point of view it makes sense because as the senior manager I want all of my team, and their teams, to be manically dedicated to their jobs when they are supposed to be doing them. In addition I want them to be manically committed to and loyal to the company at all times. Happy & loyal employees are more productive than disillusioned sad ones. Employees who have not rested and taken holidays tend to be tired and less efficient, that is not optimal from the companies point of view

If a company has a policy on leave that facilitates retrospective modification of leave types then they normally are happy to adhere to them. Otherwise employees get pissed off or disillusioned and lose faith in the company.

With regards to the fall out that this will have on others..... that really is not the employees problem. If a company cannot manage the contingency required in order to support their own policies and procedures then that is the companies fault, not the employees fault.

In the case I mentioned with the sick person, it unfortunately means that I am getting on a plan on Monday and flying for 14 hours instead of said sick manager and in addition am taking a second person with me as neither of us know as much as the sick person. This is a pain in the ass, but is the only appropriate contingency.

To give you a simpler but similar example.... if I was told during the interview for my current job that someone in my position travels business class instead of economy, and that is what is in the travel policy, then I expect to travel business class

If I was told, and it was in the leave policy that, a.) I get compassionate leave for the death of an in-law and b.) That holiday leave will be retroactively changed to sick or compassionate leave if either are needed during holiday leave, then I would be expect that this would be the case.

There is nothing sick, demented, scumbag, disgraceful or shameful is such a simple and obvious situation.

Daisy 55

None of this applies to the public sector though!

irishgrover

Daisy 55 wrote: »

None of this applies to the public sector though!

true :-)
I guess I was responding to the poster who though that the whole concern was inherently scummy, which I disagree with...

irishgrover

irishgrover wrote: »

I'd someone is entitled to compassionate, or any other type of leave, then of course they should avail of it. Companies, private or public, have leave policy. Taking that leave, if you are entitled to it, is exactly that, an entitlement.
If you are sick during your holidays and it impacts your holidays, and your entitlement allows it, then you should reclassify your leave type when you have the opportunity. Same goes for retirement or any other type of leave....
I don't understand what the **** goes on in people heads that have a problem with this. It's a very simple concept.... If you are entitled to it then you are entitled to it.....

How are these entitlements gained though?

They have direct access to the finances of the state, and with the lingering threat of strike action, they demand this and that.

irishgrover

salonfire wrote:

How are these entitlements gained though?

They have direct access to the finances of the state, and with the lingering threat of strike action, they demand this and that.

I have no idea what public sector workers are or are not entitled to. My simple point is that this type of leave is quite normal in the private sector......
So turning a discussion about it into an emotive opportunity to bash public sector workers holding the country to hostage is at best misguided, incorrect and disingenuous.

Paulzx

salonfire wrote: »

How are these entitlements gained though?

They have direct access to the finances of the state, and with the lingering threat of strike action, they demand this and that.

Damn.........SNA's now run the state and are about to bring it down with excessive Compassionate leave demands. A run on the banks is imminent. So is a strike.....i think

Whatever ye do don't panic

Sir Ophiuchus

PER Circular 2017/01 - Bereavement Leave in the Civil Service

Bereavement leave cannot be substituted for any form of leave, other than annual leave. If the bereavement
occurs when a civil servant is on annual leave, the annual leave can be replaced with bereavement leave and the annual leave restored.

This is the actual answer to OP's question.

Riskymove

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

PER Circular 2017/01 - Bereavement Leave in the Civil Service



This is the actual answer to OP's question.

Not exactly

There is a difference in the education sector between annual leave and periods when the school is closed

Sir Ophiuchus

Fair point. If the person in question was on preplanned annual leave, though (and counted as a civil/public servant), they would indeed be entitled to a day of annual leave back.

I just wanted to make clear that this is actually a very normal thing and a perfectly usual request that's 100% in line with their contract.