Taking Ryanair to the Small Claims Court - where?

peckerhead

Quick question for anyone with a bit of experience of the Small Claims Court. I'm going after Ryanair over a modest refund that they've owed me for three months. The amount of money is derisory — €80 — but I'm a stubborn old fart and the fúckers have just annoyed me so much that I'm prepared to take them to the SCC for it (and 100% sure of winning; I'll spare you the details). I'll also seek travel expenses to attend court and compensation for loss of earnings.

My question is, do I apply to the SCC in Swords District Court, local to Ryanair's offices, or to the District Court in Limerick, where I live?

The CAI guide says (my emphasis):

Where do I make a claim?
The Small Claims Court is a branch of the District Court so you should file your claim in the District Court Office closest to where the contract was made or, in the case of property damage, the office closest to where the damage took place. There is a list of District Court Offices on www.courts.ie.
Regarding online contracts, the Small Claims Office will generally accept the claim wherever the Claimant made the contract: so if you live in Dublin, the Dublin Office will take the claim, even if the Respondent’s business is located in Donegal. However, there is the risk that the judge might decide such a case is not within his/her jurisdiction.

I presume the purchase of flights/services on the Ryanair website is an online contract in the above sense? So I go to Limerick District Court?

TIA

whippet

peckerhead wrote: »

. I'll also seek travel expenses to attend court and compensation for loss of earnings.

you can't claim for these in the SCC

peckerhead

No? I thought that legal costs were the only thing not allowable (the point being to obviate the need for representation).

Thanks for the tip. If the material costs of taking the claim can't be claimed for, maybe I should just instruct a lawyer. Seems a bit mad for the amount involved. No wonder Ryanair brush people off; they know the vast majority of people won't bother pursuing a claim.

vg88

peckerhead wrote: »

No? I thought that legal costs were the only thing not allowable (the point being to obviate the need for representation).

Thanks for the tip. If the material costs of taking the claim can't be claimed for, maybe I should just instruct a lawyer. Seems a bit mad for the amount involved. No wonder Ryanair brush people off; they know the vast majority of people won't bother pursuing a claim.

Could you claim that Ryanair haven't abided by the eu261 rights that you are entitled for?

I know of a person who has brought two Irish airlines to the small claims courts over something very similar. For them both airlines don't show up and they had all costs awarded for their 261 rights. But you can't claim legal/travel costs.

L1011

moloner4 wrote: »

Could you claim that Ryanair haven't abided by the eu261 rights that you are entitled for?

I would presume that is the entire basis for the claim already.

You can't claim for expenses for the hearing, the registration fee, etc - just the 80 quid. 80 is less than I'd personally bother with the SCC for but everyone values their time differently.

peckerhead

moloner4 wrote: »

Could you claim that Ryanair haven't abided by the eu261 rights that you are entitled for?

No, the issue has to do with a €80 voucher which was used correctly by me, but created an error in their payment system. I got onto their customer support and we managed to sort it out, but the new payment link they had to create for me didn't allow for the vouicher code to be entered, so the customer service rep told me (after I'd got him to double-check, it's all in the chat transcript) to go ahead and pay using my card and that they would refund the €80 that should have been covered by the voucher.

That was in October, and they've just stonewalled me since. It's like a dialogue of the deaf; they're stuck in some kind of infinitely recurring feedback loop of stuff cut and pasted from their training manual. I've been careful to remain civil at all times, but the sheer thickness of some of them is breathtaking. I'm half-convinced they're actually feigning stupidity just to wear me down.

So fuggid, yes, I'll take them to court. But now I'm thinking that if going the SCC route will end up costing me more than the money they've gypped me for, even if I win, then maybe I should instead just go to a local solicitor and take a case for the value of the voucher plus my costs.

L1011

I would be surprised if a solicitor would take a case for that value, or if they did they would want upfront payment for all costs.

Fred Swanson

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peckerhead

L1011 wrote: »

€80 is less than I'd personally bother with the SCC for but everyone values their time differently.

I hear you. And you're right about the solicitor, of course.

Sure pisses me off to just let them away with it, though! :mad:

Fred Swanson

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Carawaystick

I surely wouldn't pick Swords as a court location if I lived elsewhere, their hq is the other end of the street from the court

Fred Swanson

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Mervyn Skidmore

peckerhead wrote: »

Quick question for anyone with a bit of experience of the Small Claims Court. I'm going after Ryanair over a modest refund that they've owed me for three months. The amount of money is derisory — €80 — but I'm a stubborn old fart and the fúckers have just annoyed me so much that I'm prepared to take them to the SCC for it (and 100% sure of winning; I'll spare you the details). I'll also seek travel expenses to attend court and compensation for loss of earnings.

My question is, do I apply to the SCC in Swords District Court, local to Ryanair's offices, or to the District Court in Limerick, where I live?

The CAI guide says (my emphasis):



I presume the purchase of flights/services on the Ryanair website is an online contract in the above sense? So I go to Limerick District Court?

TIA

You'll have to take the claim to Swords DC. That's where the respondent carries out there business. You will be spending at least €25 to make a maximum of €80 so make your choice wisely. If it goes all the way to Court you would likely have to take at least 1 day off work, pay for travel there and back, and then that could be months away. Choose wisely!

Fred Swanson

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Mervyn Skidmore

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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If it's online, then Ryanair can say that the contract was concluded where it was accepted, ie. wherever their website is registered. To avoid any jurisdictional issue, Swords is the safest option. There's a good chance they wouldn't accept the claim in Limerick.

Fred Swanson

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Mervyn Skidmore

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Not necessarily, not trying to get into an argument here but a judge may deem that the contract was made when the respondent accepted payment for the good/service, ie. where the respondent is situated. It is much safer to make the claim where the respondent is, it rules out any issue.

Fred Swanson

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Mervyn Skidmore

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Do you have any proof that an online contract can be made where a claimant resides? I would have assumed that a contract is finalised where a respondent accepts an offer. I might be wrong, but I'd suggest OP calls Limerick DC and gets advice on where to bring the claim.

Anyway, it's up to the claimant to prove the claim, so why would they have an automatic advantage? Imagine the costs that a respondent could incur over frivolous claims where they have to travel around defending themselves.

Fred Swanson

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Mervyn Skidmore

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I think you've taken me up wrong. A claim like this is up to the claimant to prove. If anyone should have a slight advantage it is the respondent. Put yourself in a business' shoes. You provide what you think is a good service to a lot of people. a few of those people deem it substandard, why should you have to go around the country defending yourself where you believe you have done nothing wrong?

I would believe strongly that OP will have to take the claim in Swords, and this won't affect the outcome one bit. Best of luck OP, over and out.

Fred Swanson

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peckerhead

Thanks all.

The problem is, as Mervyn points out, that if I have to go to Swords then the maximum amount I can claim is the €80 they stiffed me on, and it will cost me more than that to go to court if it comes to it. So even if I win my case I lose out. Ryanair know this, and I presume they've blown off thousands of aggrieved customers in my situation, knowing that they can do it with impunity for sums that 'aren't worth fighting for'. Which is why I wondered about taking a straightforward lawsuit for damages, in which case they would also have to pay my legal and other reasonable/unavoidable costs. But it's a complete nonsense to go to court over that kind of money and yes, I'd imagine any solicitor would be seeking full costs in advance. The case is a sure win, but there's no big payout in prospect for him/her.

I may just have to suck it up, I think. Makes me mad, though!

What I might do is make an online application to the SCC (they don't charge the €25 until they've accepted the case) and explain in the application that if the judge won't let the case be heard in Limerick I won't be in a position to go the SCC route and will have to seek legal remedy otherwise.

Fred Swanson

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db

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

I think you've taken me up wrong. A claim like this is up to the claimant to prove. If anyone should have a slight advantage it is the respondent. Put yourself in a business' shoes. You provide what you think is a good service to a lot of people. a few of those people deem it substandard, why should you have to go around the country defending yourself where you believe you have done nothing wrong?

I would believe strongly that OP will have to take the claim in Swords, and this won't affect the outcome one bit. Best of luck OP, over and out.

If the OPs local court decides not to hear the case the clerk will tell them and return the €25 so there is nothing to lose by lodging the claim in the local district.

peckerhead

Thanks again; I'll post back and let you know how it goes!

Now, where did I leave my green ink... :pac:

bbbbb

any update OP?
going down the same road, fortunately living closer to swords...

peckerhead

Lol... after all my huffing and puffing, I never took the matter any further, I'm afraid!

Other stuff came up and I just said "€80, meh, feck it".

bbbbb

Thanks. I think that's why Ryanair play the game the way they play it.
A little more at stake for me so I'll give it a go.

peckerhead

I think you're dead right.

Best of luck with it. If your case is sound, you're nearby and the amount is worth fighting for, you should definitely go after them. Mine was a cut-and-dried issue, but the maths just didn't add up (as pointed out to me here; thanks again to the various posters who ventured info and comments).

4ensic15

What the District Court rules require is that the contract is alleged to be made in the District in question. If it is not defended the point becomes academic.

bbbbb

Update: Got my money back via the small claims court (except for the €25 fee)

In short, followed the procedure here:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm
Ryanairs info is here (?):
https://www.ryanair.com/ie/en/useful-info/help-centre/faq-overview/flight-cancellations/eu-regulation-261
I ended up with the small claims court, very straightforward & very little evidence required (I guess Ryanair didn't challenge).

Took almost 3 months from the original cancellation, but was all done from my laptop at home.

4ensic15

Did you get the money itself or a judgement for that amount?

bbbbb

Got money today. Ryanair filed a "Notice of Acceptance of Liability" 3 weeks ago.

ted1

I was going to suggest complaining to the aviation regulator. I had an issue with Aer Lingus not paying out 600 Euro that they owed me and that’s how I got mine