Urgent advice needed - Hire Purchase issue

degra22

I've just bought a new 40k car. I would have paid the deposit back in October 2017, €1,000.

I was waiting until new year to collect the car and get a 181 Reg. I collected car on Tuesday, I signed the 14 day cooling off period waiver as I wanted to get the car there and then as we needed it, it's been 2 months and we were 100% behind the purchase and can afford repayments so financials or changing mind was not in our mind.

48 hours later the dash has show up a "Engine Fault" spanner signal and has said contact the manufacturer.

Needless to say herself is not happy after shelling out 40k for a new car only for a fault to arise 48 hours later. She is adamant we give the car back.

I've called the dealer who has informed me that as I've signed the waiver we need to give them the opportunity to fix the car.

My belief is the car is faulty and we are within our rights to cancel the hire purchase, even if I waived a cooling off period, the product is faulty which I believe should supersede. fair enough we will lose the 1k but we are okay with that.

To be fair the garage are good guys, they've stated that taking it back is not an option and that by consumer law are afforded 3 attempts to fix the car.

I really need to understand my options here.

Samuel T. Cogley

It's like buying any consumer goods the options are repair, replacement or refund; the retailer essentially decides. They have to be afforded the option to repair the car but the repair must be permanent; so where they're getting this three times from is anyone's guess.

degra22

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It's like buying any consumer goods the options are repair, replacement or refund; the retailer essentially decides. They have to be afforded the option to repair the car but the repair must be permanent; so where they're getting this three times from is anyone's guess.

Thanks Samuel, so they're afforded the option to repair the goods? is there any timeline. If this is a major engine fault and I'm waiting 6 weeks for a new car?



I've been able to gather the below from Citizens information.

What happens if the goods are faulty or damaged?

Anything you buy under a hire purchase agreement must comply with the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 and be:

Of merchantable quality
Fit for its normal purpose, and reasonably durable
As described, whether the description is part of the advertising or wrapping, on a label or something said by the salesperson.

If goods hired under a hire purchase agreement are or become faulty, both the retailer and the owner (finance company) are responsible. A consumer can claim against either party in this situation. A claim cannot be made against the manufacturer of the goods.

If a consumer returns defective goods, they are entitled to a refund of any installments paid as consumer rights in this situation are the same as if the goods were purchased outright.

A guarantee under a hire purchase agreement applies in the same way as if goods were bought outright. The manufacturer makes the guarantee. If there is a fault with the goods, the consumer can choose to have the goods repaired under the guarantee or to seek a full refund or exchange from the owner.

Under a hire purchase plan the consumer has a duty to take reasonable care of the hired goods. If the goods are damaged by the consumer and returned to the owner or finance company they are entitled to send a bill for repairs to the consumer.

Hannibal_Smith

I thought the cooling off period related to the loan. But if you're taking the car there and then, you're asked to waive it. As you've waived it, how can you rely in it?

Why not give them a chance to fix the car?

Bigus

Modern cars will throw on the engine fault warning for the most benign and silly reasons, so I wouldn't read too much into it , it could just be a faulty sensor of which there are dozens .

Ask for a diagnostic print out of the fault if they repair it.

degra22

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I thought the cooling off period related to the loan. But if you're taking the car there and then, you're asked to waive it. As you've waived it, how can you rely in it?

Why not give them a chance to fix the car?

Understand exactly what you're saying. The cooling off period does relate to the loan. However I can't return the car without cancelling said loan. I'm not in the business of returning a faulty item and paying for it over 5 years.

I would not look to be returning any car here if it worked as it should. I am more than happy with the car. My happiness dissipated when I spent 40k on a brand new car only to see engine failure transpire 36 hours thereafter.

bazz26

I honestly think you both need to take a step back a moment and let the dust settle a bit. While an engine management light is not a good start on a brand new car, faults can and do happen even on brand new cars. I know the initial reaction is to lose all confidence in the car straight away but imo that's bit of an overreaction so I'd let the dealer look at the car and address the issue.

Samuel T. Cogley

Citizen's advice is good but not definitive. They frequently get things wrong. They're not wrong about the HP company being equally as liable however so you can try them. Both are likely to essentially say, see you in court then eventually - the issue there is what the Judge decides and that could be a repair IMHO (not trying to give legal but practical advice).

In regards to time frame. European Communities (Certain Aspects of the Sale of Consumer Goods and Associated Guarantees) Regulations 2003 allows a time that does not cause significant inconvenience. Now if they give you a loaner then a few weeks might be allowable but otherwise I'd suggest it's days to make the repair rather than weeks.

Make sure you find out exactly whats wrong with the car as the limitation period for claims is six years not the warranty period; assuming it's under six years.

I'd be interested in the legality of a waiver of cooling off tbh.

Ultimate Seduction

That engine light could be something ridiculously small. It could take them 20 minutes to plug it in to a computer and reset the fault.
Seems strange that you would prefer to give the car back and cancel the deal, rather than let them have a look at it .

whippet

Get it out of your head that you will be getting either a refund or replacement car straight away.

It would be reasonable that the dealer get an opportunity to remedy the problem and in a timely fashion.

If I were you i'd drop it back to the dealer, ask for a loan car and have a full report on what caused the engine light to come on and what the resolution was; i'd get this in writing.

Warning lights in cars can be really sensitive and might only be a faulty sensor etc.

But remember; you do not have the right to either demand a new car or cancel the hire purchase; the retailer has to offer one of Repair, Replacment or Refund .. they get to decide what to offer - it will then be up to you to either accept their offer or refuse their offer.

Should you refuse their offer you will then need to seek legal advise to resolve the matter ... this would be outside the realm of the Small Claims Court so you'd be in to proper legal stuff and it will boil down to what a judge would deem as a 'reasonable' offer from the garage. Offering to repair would be reasonable in most people eyes.

degra22

bazz26 wrote: »

I honestly think you both need to take a step back a moment and let the dust settle a bit. While an engine management light is not a good start on a brand new car, faults can and do happen even on brand new cars. I know the initial reaction is to lose all confidence in the car straight away but imo that's bit of an overreaction so I'd let the dealer look at the car and address the issue.

Thank you bazz and you're 100% right. There is an element of bias already set in on our part, but that is hard to remove yourself from when the cost is as significant as it was. Especially when the faults are showing 36 hours into a purchase.

Samuel T. Cogley

degra22 wrote: »

Thank you bazz and you're 100% right. There is an element of bias already set in on our part, but that is hard to remove yourself from when the cost is as significant as it was. Especially when the faults are showing 36 hours into a purchase.

Better 36 hours in than 36 hours after the warranty expires.

Del2005

degra22 wrote: »

To be fair the garage are good guys, they've stated that taking it back is not an option and that by consumer law are afforded 3 attempts to fix the car.

I really need to understand my options here.

They only get 1 attempt to fix the fault not 3. The 1st repair should be permanent, after that you can start with the other 2 options replace or refund but you'll most likely need a solicitor to get these options.

Jobs OXO

degra22 wrote: »

I've just bought a new 40k car. I would have paid the deposit back in October 2017, €1,000.

I was waiting until new year to collect the car and get a 181 Reg. I collected car on Tuesday, I signed the 14 day cooling off period waiver as I wanted to get the car there and then as we needed it, it's been 2 months and we were 100% behind the purchase and can afford repayments so financials or changing mind was not in our mind.

48 hours later the dash has show up a "Engine Fault" spanner signal and has said contact the manufacturer.

Needless to say herself is not happy after shelling out 40k for a new car only for a fault to arise 48 hours later. She is adamant we give the car back.

I've called the dealer who has informed me that as I've signed the waiver we need to give them the opportunity to fix the car.

My belief is the car is faulty and we are within our rights to cancel the hire purchase, even if I waived a cooling off period, the product is faulty which I believe should supersede. fair enough we will lose the 1k but we are okay with that.

To be fair the garage are good guys, they've stated that taking it back is not an option and that by consumer law are afforded 3 attempts to fix the car.

I really need to understand my options here.

Eh grow a pair and tell "herself" to calm down.

Samuel T. Cogley

Jobs OXO wrote: »

Eh grow a pair and tell "herself" to calm down.

Bet you spend a good deal of time in bed/on the sofa alone. :pac:

Hannibal_Smith

degra22 wrote: »

Understand exactly what you're saying. The cooling off period does relate to the loan. However I can't return the car without cancelling said loan. I'm not in the business of returning a faulty item and paying for it over 5 years.

I would not look to be returning any car here if it worked as it should. I am more than happy with the car. My happiness dissipated when I spent 40k on a brand new car only to see engine failure transpire 36 hours thereafter.

Never suggested you continue to make the payments over 5 years if returning the car. But the cooling off period has been waived. Forget about it.

If you have the information from citizens advice, As you've posted above, why not go back to them with that?

I didn't realise the engine failed, I thought it was a flashing light that came on? Why not let them take a look at it and if it's not permanent, as per the previous post, exercise your rights then?

average_runner

degra22 wrote: »

Thank you bazz and you're 100% right. There is an element of bias already set in on our part, but that is hard to remove yourself from when the cost is as significant as it was. Especially when the faults are showing 36 hours into a purchase.

I think you need to see what the fault is first, basically your diving into a pool without knowing how deep it is.

These sensors come on for the smallest thing and so let's see what the issue is first and then go from there.

bazz26

I know and I'm not trying to belittle you or your wife's expectancy on an expensive purchase. Cars are complicated devices these days and as such can have issues both big and small. I'd leave the dealer look at it, it could be something very small that takes 5 mins to fix. Afaik they are correct in saying that they are entitled to attempt to fix the same issue 3 times before you could go about rejecting the car.

degra22

Thank you everyone for the support and advice. It's very much appreciated.

It's great to have such informative replies and also to calm the jets down

degra22

Jobs OXO wrote: »

Eh grow a pair and tell "herself" to calm down.

Lol, clearly not married are you

MarkN

I’d take a deep breath and relax. These things happen. I’ve had brand new cars with marks on the paint, one had to have trim replaced as someone hit the plastic strip on one of the doors. A light on a dash is also not the same as the gearbox emptying itself all over the M50 or something. Yes it takes the joy out of things but I’d put it down to something like a snag list when buying a house, it shouldn’t happen but give them a chance to make it right and see how things are then.

vandriver

'...Afaik they are correct in saying that they are entitled to attempt to fix the same issue 3 times before you could go about rejecting the car.,..'
Literally every discussion like this throws up this 'fact'
The retailers love our ignorance of consumer law.

Tenigate

degra22 wrote: »

48 hours later the dash has show up a "Engine Fault" spanner signal and has said contact the manufacturer.

Needless to say herself is not happy after shelling out 40k for a new car only for a fault to arise 48 hours later. She is adamant we give the car back.

How about wait to see what's wrong before overreacting?

Not a lawyer but ask for the cause in writing, and get the garage to notify you before they proceed with any repairs, replacement parts, etc. It's your car, and you do have rights regarding how problems are rectified. If there is a serious engine problem it could be a good enough reason to receive a full refund rather than a repair. So wait and see.

(On the other hand, don't let the garage fob you off. Get a 2nd opinion if required and research online problems specific to that model. I know someone who bought a new car and had nothing but problems with it being sluggish from day 1. Turns out it was a fault plaguing that particular model, but the dealer kept denying.)

bazz26

vandriver wrote: »

'...Afaik they are correct in saying that they are entitled to attempt to fix the same issue 3 times before you could go about rejecting the car.,..'
Literally every discussion like this throws up this 'fact'
The retailers love our ignorance of consumer law.

Maybe you need to look up the difference between "Afaik" and 'fact' while you have the consumer law dictionary open.

kennethsmyth

bazz26 wrote: »

Maybe you need to look up the difference between "Afaik" and 'fact' while you have the consumer law dictionary open.

Maybe you need to read up more on consumer law, they get one chance to fix and it must be permanent. (mobile phone companies like to quote their own policies of 3 times to fix rather than actual consumer law.

If that fails, then the dealer is supposed to move onto refund or replace - the remaining two R's. However this is a car and the dealer will continue to try and fix until forced by legal action due to the cost of the item.

It should not get that far, as was said this could just be a sensor but i would expect the dealer to give a fairly nice loaner at no cost during the time its being fixed.

Tenigate

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Maybe you need to read up more on consumer law, they get one chance to fix and it must be permanent.

Where are you getting this crap from? What you're writing is simply not true.

bazz26

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Maybe you need to read up more on consumer law, they get one chance to fix and it must be permanent. (mobile phone companies like to quote their own policies of 3 times to fix rather than actual consumer law.

If that fails, then the dealer is supposed to move onto refund or replace - the remaining two R's. However this is a car and the dealer will continue to try and fix until forced by legal action due to the cost of the item.

It should not get that far, as was said this could just be a sensor but i would expect the dealer to give a fairly nice loaner at no cost during the time its being fixed.

I have no problem putting my hand up when my information is wrong but I did say 'afaik', not 'fact' as suggested by an earlier smart ass.

kennethsmyth

Tenigate wrote: »

Where are you getting this crap from? What you're writing is simply not true.

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/faulty-goods/

Look to "your rights" tab and then down to repair section.

I believe the words you are looking for is thank you.

brightspark

Bigus wrote: »

Modern cars will throw on the engine fault warning for the most benign and silly reasons, so I wouldn't read too much into it , it could just be a faulty sensor of which there are dozens .

Ask for a diagnostic print out of the fault if they repair it.

Saw a video recently advertising a device for reading the OBD2 codes. The engine fault on his wife's car...petrol cap loose!
It's most likely something very minor. (Of course it could be they forgot to put oil in the gearbox and the engine has exploded, but unlikely)

Bring it back let them find out what's wrong. If they need time to fix it insist on a courtesy car.

Tenigate

kennethsmyth wrote: »

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/faulty-goods/

Look to "your rights" tab and then down to repair section.

I believe the words you are looking for is thank you.

Nah, your interpretation is all wrong. All that site says is a retailer may offer a repair. For a serious problem in a new product a consumer is not obliged to accept the offer of a repair.

Jobs OXO

Tenigate wrote: »

Nah, your interpretation is all wrong. All that site says is a retailer may offer a repair. For a serious problem in a new product a consumer is not obliged to accept the offer of a repair.

Think you are the one who is wrong

Samuel T. Cogley

Tenigate wrote: »

Nah, your interpretation is all wrong. All that site says is a retailer may offer a repair. For a serious problem in a new product a consumer is not obliged to accept the offer of a repair.

That's exactly what that site says.

However they're going by case law which no one is able to verify which is why the OP would need a solicitor and probably a barrister familiar with consumer law to progress a case, which would most likely be prohibitive. There is nothing in the Sales of Goods Acts (AFAIK) that confirms rejection as a remedy unless agreed by both parties. I've not seen anything in the ancillary legislation either.

thierry14

Don't blame you for being pissed OP

Guessing it's a BMW you got?

They are renowned bangers these days, could be endless trouble especially if it's a diesel, you could have been sold a lemon or it could be fine after this, who knows

I hope they gave you a loaner car of similar cost

I would be bringing it into them for every little thing you notice that's not right

You should expect a 40k car to work

Posters saying relax and on side of manufacturer need to cop the **** on

It's a 40k car here not a bloody microwave from Lidl

vandriver

bazz26 wrote: »

I have no problem putting my hand up when my information is wrong but I did say 'afaik', not 'fact' as suggested by an earlier smart ass.

Why post at all if you don't know ?

aaakev

40k cars throw up faults for any amount of reasons. I had a customer last year txt me saying his van was ****ed that there was lights on the dash etc and it was only a week old. Called me saying he wasnt happy and wanted to give it back. Turned out he had a screw in a tyre and it had lost pressure which threw up a fault.....

Let them have a look op its probably a small issue thats not really an issue, it'll be fixed quick and you can enjoy your new car

Tenigate

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

That's exactly what that site says.

I read the site and (a) it's not exactly what the site says and (b) the site is just someone's interpretation of consumer rights which along with citizensinformation.ie should be taken with a pinch of salt

Samuel T. Cogley

Tenigate wrote: »

I read the site and (a) it's not exactly what the site says and (b) the site is just someone's interpretation of consumer rights which along with citizensinformation.ie should be taken with a pinch of salt

You need to work on (a) your reading and (b) your reading

Reject item – Full refund

If you agreed to buy something and it simply does not work from the outset, then you are entitled to reject the goods and get a refund from the seller. Examples include a new washing machine which fills with water but does not spin or drain, or a new TV set which the audio doesn’t work on. In both of these examples, the consumer has discovered a major problem/fault with the item as soon as they go to use it for the first time. In the shop they agreed to buy it, but clearly there is something wrong with the one they were given. The consumer has not “accepted” the item – they brought the item home but it does not do what it said it would and the consumer had the right to reject it. They can return it to the shop and demand a full refund. This will terminate the contract they had for the item with the seller.

So given we agree that these sites are unrelaible, on what are you basing your assertion that the OP has the right of rejection?

Tenigate

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You need to work on (a) your reading and (b) your reading



So given we agree that these sites are unrelaible, on what are you basing your assertion that the OP has the right of rejection?

My reading is just fine. The word "may" (used on the site), along with (iirc) the section being about a fault that develops rather than being present from the outset, is the reason ken is wrong to say a repair is the first step in resolving an issue.

In ops case, I completely disagree that the op has the right of rejection. He'll need to know what the problem is before agreeing to a resolution.

My issue is with the irrelevant links kennethsmyth is posting to back up his assertion that the op requires the garage to attempt repair prior to refund. Depending on the problem, a refund or replacement may be a better option (e.g material fault in engine present at time of purchase)

James Bond Junior

thierry14 wrote: »

Don't blame you for being pissed OP

Guessing it's a BMW you got?

They are renowned bangers these days, could be endless trouble especially if it's a diesel, you could have been sold a lemon or it could be fine after this, who knows

It's a 40k car here not a bloody microwave from Lidl

A 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017 BMW in our house at the moment. 1 went back for a software update as the radio wasnt working properly. That has been the grand total of issues with all cars. Where are you seeing these new "banger" BMW's? All diesel by the way.

bazz26

vandriver wrote: »

Why post at all if you don't know ?

Because I stated afaik which means "as far as I know" not "I know for sure".

I'd still like to see a case where someone has successfully rejected a brand new car with an engine management light appear and had it replaced or were reimbursed without the dealer having an opportunity to remedy the issue.

MarkN

thierry14 wrote: »

Don't blame you for being pissed OP

Guessing it's a BMW you got?

They are renowned bangers these days, could be endless trouble especially if it's a diesel, you could have been sold a lemon or it could be fine after this, who knows

I hope they gave you a loaner car of similar cost

I would be bringing it into them for every little thing you notice that's not right

You should expect a 40k car to work

Posters saying relax and on side of manufacturer need to cop the **** on

It's a 40k car here not a bloody microwave from Lidl

Won’t get much of a brand new BMW for 40k these days. Shows how much experience you have of them.

bazz26

Sure lads it's a brand new car, cost 40k. Must be a BMW.

There must be a full moon out tonight.

screamer

Sorry OP but a total over reaction TBH. I think the garage is well within its rights to offer a repair. I'd let them repair it and see how it goes. If there's subsequent issues then you can seek a refund.
Repair is the first and most common and reasonable approach to issues with new goods and I think even consumer law would support that. But if you want to pursue the replace it option I'd say you'll need to get legal advise on how to do that.

Marcusm

degra22 wrote: »

I've just bought a new 40k car. I would have paid the deposit back in October 2017, €1,000.

I was waiting until new year to collect the car and get a 181 Reg. I collected car on Tuesday, I signed the 14 day cooling off period waiver as I wanted to get the car there and then as we needed it, it's been 2 months and we were 100% behind the purchase and can afford repayments so financials or changing mind was not in our mind.

48 hours later the dash has show up a "Engine Fault" spanner signal and has said contact the manufacturer.

Needless to say herself is not happy after shelling out 40k for a new car only for a fault to arise 48 hours later. She is adamant we give the car back.

I've called the dealer who has informed me that as I've signed the waiver we need to give them the opportunity to fix the car.

My belief is the car is faulty and we are within our rights to cancel the hire purchase, even if I waived a cooling off period, the product is faulty which I believe should supersede. fair enough we will lose the 1k but we are okay with that.

To be fair the garage are good guys, they've stated that taking it back is not an option and that by consumer law are afforded 3 attempts to fix the car.

I really need to understand my options here.

It’s been very cold; battery might be partly discharged causing some cars to throw up engine management faults that’s don’t exist.

Heres Johnny

Is the car driving ok? Or is it just the light that's on? I had loads of those lights on over the years only for it to be nothing really.

Relax, it's under warranty you will get sorted.

kennethsmyth

Tenigate wrote: »

I read the site and (a) it's not exactly what the site says and (b) the site is just someone's interpretation of consumer rights which along with citizensinformation.ie should be taken with a pinch of salt

That wasn't the citizens information site it was ccpc - which is a legal body, additionally I work in retail. The customer does not get to pick which of the repair, refund, replace is offered. However if the product is new and a fault occurs within 6 months it could be considered that it was always there from its manufacture and therefore refund is required.

Stick to the issue and not your interpretation.

Tenigate

I work in retail .. wow there's an expert witness if I ever met one :rolleyes:

Mech1

Maybe its your fault op, not the cars. Did you refit the fuel cap correctly? I have seen cars put on the fault light for that.

kennethsmyth

Tenigate wrote: »

I work in retail .. wow there's an expert witness if I ever met one :rolleyes:

Well done playing the man not the subject. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I also have a background in retail law however that won't matter to you as you imply to have greater knowledge regardless of legislation or facts presented.

So go ahead keep on pushing your point, I added my information to help the OP not prove I am more knowledgeable than others.

Samuel T. Cogley

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Well done playing the man not the subject. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I also have a background in retail law however that won't matter to you as you imply to have greater knowledge regardless of legislation or facts presented.

So go ahead keep on pushing your point, I added my information to help the OP not prove I am more knowledgeable than others.

It's a presumption that the fault was always present, presumptions in law can be rebutted. I'm trying to prove my superior knowledge btw it's the only way I can get gratification on the internet... oh hang on a minute. :pac:

kennethsmyth

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It's a presumption that the fault was always present, presumptions in law can be rebutted. I'm trying to prove my superior knowledge btw it's the only way I can get gratification on the internet... oh hang on a minute. :pac:

Love it Samuel , ok back to OP

Have you been back to garage and what was the fault? ....OP.....OP... you still there?...........