Looks like the Government will have to back track on baptism barrier policy

Hotblack Desiato

Well of course parents and fundraising has to step in (and we accept this as normal for a developed country)
but the point is the RC church doesn't fund them despite what a lot of people seem to think

murpho999

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The Irish government is being cheap when it comes to education. And housing. And the health service. And public transport.
What else is new. "Ah jaysis lads, t'will cosht a bomb, there'd be nothing left for a new jet and an increase for the TD's!"

grahambo wrote: »

My thoughts too

But where is all the money going!?

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Administrators in the public service - like HSE HR team.

So you think the billions required for new schools etc is not there due a government jet, TDs pay and some HSE management costs.

Totally ridiculous.

The real reason is that we are poorly managed and public money often gets wasted (HSE being a good example of losing money through their inefficiencies) but also that we actually pay less taxes here.

People in Ireland want roads, hospitals, schools, water systems like they see abroad but are not willing to pay for them. Compare income tax rates to other countries and see how low we are but successive governments are obsessed with lowering taxes in order to get elected.

Hotblack Desiato

Berserker wrote: »

I wanted to check whether or not you were happy to have faith specific private schools.

What's that got to do with the admission policies of state funded non-fee-paying schools though?

ted1

mcgovern wrote: »

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the catholic church may own the buildings but the government pay all of the running costs for schools.

And they could always transfer the ownership of the schools over to the state as part of the millions they owe for abusing children in their care.

Many parents with kids in the schools don’t want them handied over. So they can’t just do it.

ted1

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Berserker wrote: »

They get some funding but those schools are saving the state money.

I was under the impression that they got the same subvention per pupil that state schools get. how is that saving the government money?

Because the school has to look after it’s own building and grounds. So it costs the state less , a public school gets extra funding for that.

ted1

The issue of places is simply a lack of investment. And schools being over enrolled. The babtisimal isduevus hust a smoke screen. With 200 places and 300 kids, 100 kids still won’t get a place

the_syco

grahambo wrote: »

I think this "Barrier" is ultimately wrong, that being said however... The Catholic Church own the majority of schools right?

Teachers wages, wages of everyone in the school, bills, etc; if the church wants control, they'd have to pay for all of this.

But if they could pay for this, it'd show their hand, and they'd have no excuse for not paying the money they promised to pay for the slaves they kept.

If the churches pulled out of the schools, there'd be a lot less hours given to the subject of religion, and it'd be probably pulled from the JC (is it still an exam subject?).

kylith wrote: »

removing the baptism barrier OR handing over the properties to the state as at least part of their payment for the abuses perpetrated by Church members and organisations.

If the latter was done, the former would happen within a year, as they'd have no control over the schools.

steddyeddy

I'm completely against barriers to education, especially this one, but is there not precedent for schools deciding on entry criteria?

evolving_doors

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I was under the impression that they got the same subvention per pupil that state schools get. how is that saving the government money?

Naw ... non fee charging is based on a pupil teacher ratio of 19-1 ... So say in a school of 230 pupils 12.1 teachers would be on dept payroll.

For fee-charging it's 23-1 .. So for a school with 230 pupils it would be 10 teachers plus the 2.1 paid by school fees.

Also fee charging don't get allocation for learning support. Plus building maintainence costs.

During the recession a few fee charging did switch over to state funded.
Did it change the enrolment?
Nope.
Actually things still stayed the same as parents maintained high 'voluntary contributions.
Plus all the extra curricular and foreign trips stayed so lower income families wouldn't have a hope of paying for their kids to 'keep up.
Plus the sibling/parents/grandparents/teacher offspring rule stayed.

By the way the only 'private' schools in Ireland are mostly the LC grind schools. The term is voluntary!

Vronsky

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what is so dangerous about the ability to seize property in lieu of debts? It is done all the time.

Because there is no enforceable debt.

It is unconstitutional to seize land

seamus

Vronsky wrote: »

It is unconstitutional to seize land

"Seize", sure.

But there are legal processes to take ownership of assets (including land) to cover an unsettled debt. And these are perfectly constitutional.

ted1

evolving_doors wrote: »

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I was under the impression that they got the same subvention per pupil that state schools get. how is that saving the government money?

Naw ... non fee charging is based on a pupil teacher ratio of 19-1 ... So say in a school of 230 pupils 12.1 teachers would be on dept payroll.

For fee-charging it's 23-1 .. So for a school with 230 pupils it would be 10 teachers plus the 2.1 paid by school fees.

Also fee charging don't get allocation for learning support. Plus building maintainence costs.

During the recession a few fee charging did switch over to state funded.
Did it change the enrolment?
Nope.
Actually things still stayed the same as parents maintained high 'voluntary contributions.
Plus all the extra curricular and foreign trips stayed so lower income families wouldn't have a hope of paying for their kids to 'keep up.
Plus the sibling/parents/grandparents/teacher offspring rule stayed.

By the way the only 'private' schools in Ireland are mostly the LC grind schools. The term is voluntary!

No, there’s a few an international school is opening or has opened in sandyford.

The rugby playing schools are semi private. Private schools are allowed to set their own curriculum.

evolving_doors

ted1 wrote: »

The issue of places is simply a lack of investment. And schools being over enrolled. The babtisimal isduevus hust a smoke screen. With 200 places and 300 kids, 100 kids still won’t get a place

So do you decide who comes first based on religion?
You wouldn't do the same for a hospital waiting list... then go harping on about a lack of staff/beds being the true problem.
One wrong doesn't nullify another.


Saying it's an oversubscription problem.. now that's a smokescreen if ever I saw one.
Same as the 'it's a matter of parental choice' nonsense.

ted1

evolving_doors wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

The issue of places is simply a lack of investment. And schools being over enrolled. The babtisimal isduevus hust a smoke screen. With 200 places and 300 kids, 100 kids still won’t get a place

So do you decide who comes first based on religion?
You wouldn't do the same for a hospital waiting list... then go harping on about a lack of staff/beds being the true problem.
One wrong doesn't nullify another.


Saying it's an oversubscription problem.. now that's a smokescreen if ever I saw one.
Same as the 'it's a matter of parental choice' nonsense.

If it was a free for all, then 100 kids are still going to be without a place. People think that the only thing preventing them access is baptism, when no it’s not. It’s supppy and demand.

Dick phelan

Fair enough the Church can decide to admit whoever they want as long as they no longer expect government funding that is. Yes they own the buildings but when your taking taxpayer money you shouldn't be allowed pick and choose who gets an education in your school.

ted1

Dick phelan wrote: »

Fair enough the Church can decide to admit whoever they want as long as they no longer expect government funding that is. Yes they own the buildings but when your taking taxpayer money you shouldn't be allowed pick and choose who gets an education in your school.

But you havn’t addresses the underlining issue. Your kid still won’t get in as there’s no places

evolving_doors

ted1 wrote: »

No, there’s a few an international school is opening or has opened in sandyford.

Yes and that's why I said 'mostly'

ted1 wrote: »

The rugby playing schools are semi private.

Would you agree that say St. Munchens (non-fee charging voluntary) in limerick is the same 'semi-private' status as say Belvedere College (fee-charging voluntary)?

Anyhow don't muddy the field further with rugby.

ted1 wrote: »

Private schools are allowed to set their own curriculum.

Sure they are (as the new one in Sandyford is choosing the i-bac ).

but don't confuse private and voluntary .


If you are a few charging voluntary school in Ireland you must follow the curriculum as set out by the NCCA if you want your teachers to be paid by the dept.

And to muddy the waters further... there are some that run different curriculae in parallel. I think St. Andrews does established LC + the Bac. I'd assume the teachers doing the bac. Aren't paid by the dept.

ted1

evolving_doors wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

No, there’s a few an international school is opening or has opened in sandyford.

Yes and that's why I said 'mostly'

ted1 wrote: »

The rugby playing schools are semi private.

Would you agree that say St. Munchens (non-fee charging voluntary) in limerick is the same 'semi-private' status as say Belvedere College (fee-charging voluntary)?

Anyhow don't muddy the field further with rugby.

ted1 wrote: »

Private schools are allowed to set their own curriculum.

Sure they are (as the new one in Sandyford is choosing the i-bac ).

but don't confuse private and voluntary .


If you are a few charging voluntary school in Ireland you must follow the curriculum as set out by the NCCA if you want your teachers to be paid by the dept.

And to muddy the waters further... there are some that run different curriculae in parallel. I think St. Andrews does established LC + the Bac. I'd assume the teachers doing the bac. Aren't paid by the dept.

Well using only and mostly in the same sentence was bound to cause confusion.

Apologies for forgetting about life outside Leinster.

The Leinster playing rugby schools are predominantly semi private.

I think you might be getting using the word voluntary wrong. It’s semi private, try turning up to Blackrock, Terenure , Clongoewes etc without paying the fees ( which are compulsory) and see what they say.

evolving_doors

ted1 wrote: »

If it was a free for all, then 100 kids are still going to be without a place. People think that the only thing preventing them access is baptism, when no it’s not. It’s supppy and demand.

If you restricted access based on skin colour would you still maintain that it's not a problem... as it's a 'supply and demand' issue?

evolving_doors

ted1 wrote: »

Well using only and mostly in the same sentence was bound to cause confusion.

Apologies for forgetting about life outside Leinster.

The Leinster playing rugby schools are predominantly semi private.

I think you might be getting using the word voluntary wrong. It’s semi private, try turning up to Blackrock, Terenure , Clongoewes etc without paying the fees ( which are compulsory) and see what they say.

Both fee charging and non-fee charging can be 'semi-private' (which is just your own term,).
The term is voluntary
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_post_primary_school/types_of_post_primary_school.html

evolving_doors

ted1 wrote: »

Well using only and mostly in the same sentence was bound to cause confusion.

Apologies for forgetting about life outside Leinster.

The Leinster playing rugby schools are predominantly semi private.

I think you might be getting using the word voluntary wrong. It’s semi private, try turning up to Blackrock, Terenure , Clongoewes etc without paying the fees ( which are compulsory) and see what they say.

But this thread isn't about fees anyway so leave the rugby and fees out of it.

If it helps...
Try turning up to this school without the appropriate baptism cert!

Order of admission:
5.1 Children of members of the Church of Ireland; followed by children of members of other mainstream
Protestant or Reformed traditions of Christianity, followed by:
5.2 Children of inter-church families where one parent is a member of the Church of Ireland; followed by
children of inter-church families where one parent is a member of another mainstream Protestant or Re-
formed tradition of Christianity, followed by:
5.3 Applicants not in categories 5.1 or 5.2.

ted1

evolving_doors wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Well using only and mostly in the same sentence was bound to cause confusion.

Apologies for forgetting about life outside Leinster.

The Leinster playing rugby schools are predominantly semi private.

I think you might be getting using the word voluntary wrong. It’s semi private, try turning up to Blackrock, Terenure , Clongoewes etc without paying the fees ( which are compulsory) and see what they say.

But this thread isn't about fees anyway so leave the rugby and fees out of it.

If it helps...
Try turning up to this school without the appropriate baptism cert!

Order of admission:
5.1 Children of members of the Church of Ireland; followed by children of members of other mainstream
Protestant or Reformed traditions of Christianity, followed by:
5.2 Children of inter-church families where one parent is a member of the Church of Ireland; followed by
children of inter-church families where one parent is a member of another mainstream Protestant or Re-
formed tradition of Christianity, followed by:
5.3 Applicants not in categories 5.1 or 5.2.

You be welcomed under 5.3, which effectively says if we are not over subscribed you will get a place. So once again the issue is supply and demand

Beta Ray Bill

ted1 wrote: »

You be welcomed under 5.3, which effectively says if we are not over subscribed you will get a place. So once again the issue is supply and demand

But schools like that are always over subscribed.

I knew of a teen that barely got into Gonzaga
As the fees wern't as high as the likes of Blackrock, there was more people trying to go there.
His parent were told "it's very tight this year"

Apparently he didn't want to go to Belvedere College

€5000 a year to attend Belvedere College or Gonzaga last time I checked.

ted1

Bit of a commute between the two

kylith

ted1 wrote: »

The issue of places is simply a lack of investment. And schools being over enrolled. The babtisimal isduevus hust a smoke screen. With 200 places and 300 kids, 100 kids still won’t get a place

It's not a smoke screen.

I could put my child's name down for a school on the day they're born. Someone else can come along 6 months later and, because their child is baptised, get put ahead of mine on the list for school places. Enough people do that and, even though I may have been first to put the child's name down, I don't get the place.

That's the kid of codology in the Irish school system today.

Vronsky

seamus wrote: »

"Seize", sure.

But there are legal processes to take ownership of assets (including land) to cover an unsettled debt. And these are perfectly constitutional.

The state cannot seize land when there is no enforceable debt. The deal the government struck was one where the Catholic orders would volunteer to pay part of the redress, without legal obligation.

If the Catholic orders had refuses to participate then the government would have had to set up a redress scheme on it's own or each individual would have had to prove their abuse in court.

ted1

Vronsky wrote: »

seamus wrote: »

"Seize", sure.

But there are legal processes to take ownership of assets (including land) to cover an unsettled debt. And these are perfectly constitutional.

The state cannot seize land when there is no enforceable debt. The deal the government struck was one where the Catholic orders would volunteer to pay part of the redress, without legal obligation.

If the Catholic orders had refuses to participate then the government would have had to set up a redress scheme on it's own or each individual would have had to prove their abuse in court.

The funny part is that when the church sold land to pay there was uproar. Clonskeagh and st.Annes are two examples

Dravokivich

kylith wrote: »

It's not a smoke screen.

I could put my child's name down for a school on the day they're born. Someone else can come along 6 months later and, because their child is baptised, get put ahead of mine on the list for school places. Enough people do that and, even though I may have been first to put the child's name down, I don't get the place.

That's the kid of codology in the Irish school system today.

My son's mother put his name down for a school shortly after he was born, to be told he was 70-something in the list. I completely dissagreed with doing at as there was no way we would be sure we'd still be in the area 5 years later. And as it so happens we weren't. How many other kids have names down in places that aren't relevant when it's needed? A woman in that school is ringing through to a lot of people because of it.

seamus

kylith wrote: »

It's not a smoke screen.

I could put my child's name down for a school on the day they're born. Someone else can come along 6 months later and, because their child is baptised, get put ahead of mine on the list for school places. Enough people do that and, even though I may have been first to put the child's name down, I don't get the place.

That's the kid of codology in the Irish school system today.

Yep. Spoke to a mother at a birthday party recently enough. Her house is 20 metres from the front gates of the local school and she had his name down two years ahead of time.

Her child was refused a place because he wasn't baptised.

I know of lots of other people whose children got in the same year who live several km away and got in through a combination of Granny's home address and baptism.

The baptism issue is far from a smoke screen.

nice_guy80

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Administrators in the public service - like HSE HR team.

do you realise all the support staff needed in the likes of the department of education just to keep schools open - payroll, exams section, curriculum development & support, building development, inspectorate