Wireless home alarm in 2018: cost and recommendations?

kub

bk wrote: »

I've both a HKC system and Yale System. The build quality is much the same (though keypad is definitely better on the HKC), while the online service, app and home automation connectivity is VASTLY superior on the Yale.

HKC has just two additional features:
- shock sensors
- GSM backup channel (optional).

Yale also has additional features:
- Connect with Hue Smart Lights, turns your whole home into a SAAB, very cool.
- Alexa for voice control
- Free app and self monitoring.
- Turn on alarm automatically via geo-fencing
- Apple Watch app for arm/disarm alarm.

Plus a massive difference in cost.

The Yale system isn't perfect, but I'm much happier with it then I ever was with the HKC system.

I do think their is a place for high quality professional systems, but it pains me seeing people spending so much on systems that are so outdated.

Hopefully HKC will be going down that route shortly, they are owned by Assa Abloy now, just like Yale, so are now all part of the same organisation.

2011

bk wrote: »

I've both a HKC system and Yale System. The build quality is much the same

Not even in the same ballpark IMHO. Let's agree to disagree on that.

while the online service, app and home automation connectivity is VASTLY superior on the Yale.

That is a very different argument that stating what alarm system is more suited to DIY.

I was responding to your last post in which you listed what alarm system were more suited to a DIY install. You have now responded by arguing that a Yale alarm is better for home automation which is a very different discussion.

You are also assuming that DIYer's are of the view that home automation and alarms should go together. This is not necessarily the case.

By the way do you know that HKC have launched their "HKC world of Connected Devices"? These will be on sale early in the new year. I got sent some photos of some of their new products today. I have no idea how good these products are.

Personally I think that home automation and alarms are best kept separate. Although HKC can have inputs and outputs working with a cause and effect matrix (personally I wouldn't be interested).

I find the HKC app very handy although I would be the first to say that it is very basic. It is more powerful when integrated with a Hikvision CCTV system (professional system).

HKC has just two additional features:
- shock sensors
- GSM backup channel (optional).

Even if we ignore those very important features this statement is incorrect. The HKC has many additional features.

- Alexa for voice control

HKC alarms can be armed and disarmed via Alexa or Google Home. Although not advisable (due to the very obvious security risk) all you have to do is install a €10 Sonoff switch within the panel and connect a dry contact from it to an input.

- Turn on alarm automatically via geo-fencing

Inadvisable IMHO but possible via a 3rd party device.

- Apple Watch app for arm/disarm alarm.

Can Sonoff or similar be controlled via an Apple watch? If so easy peasy, but again not something that necessarily appeals exclusively to DIYers.

Plus a massive difference in cost.

Incorrect, I posted the prices for you before.

The Yale system isn't perfect, but I'm much happier with it then I ever was with the HKC system.

....and that is your choice. But you have not posted anything that suggests that it is more suited to a DIY install. Instead you have focused on why you think it is superior from a Home Automation perspective.

I do think their is a place for high quality professional systems, but it pains me seeing people spending so much on systems that are so outdated.

I think you are just assuming that the components cost a lot more when in fact they don't. A large part of the cost for a professional system is the labour, not the materials, which is fair enough as you are paying for expertise.

If you are going to argue that there is a big price differential back it up.

For me the best DIY materials are ones that are easy to install, have the features that I desire (which may not be home automation related) at the right price point.

2011

kub wrote: »

Hopefully HKC will be going down that route shortly

New HKC product:

kub

2011 wrote: »

New HKC product:

They have started an installers nationwide roadshow, I have seen and spoken to them about this.
Whatever that is, looks awful.
I have not heard or seen such a product.

2011

kub wrote: »

Whatever that is, looks awful.

Looks are not important as it would be out of sight.

I have not heard or seen such a product.

Discreet I/O that connect wirelessly with the main panel.

Stoner

2011 wrote:

Can Sonoff or similar be controlled via an Apple watch? If so easy peasy, but again not something that necessarily appeals exclusively to DIYers.

Yes, as you say , really once the on off option is added by sonoff, it opens up the on off options

Geofencing, button press on a smart device, watch, phone tablet etc

If you have a sonoff opening your gate, the same command could turn off the alarm

But BK knows all this too though!!!

Thing is most people don't really want to mess with home automation imo.

The market for self install with home automation is not huge imo.

2011

Now that I reflect on it I see that everything that BK has listed as an “additional feature” that the Yale system has over HKC is something that is in fact easily achieved with not just HKC but other high quality professional systems such as Vanderbilt.

Stoner wrote: »

The market for self install with home automation is not huge imo.

I disagree. The “fun” or “toy” systems available in places like Harry Norman’s (such as SmartThings) are now quite popular. I just think it is important that people don’t believe the disinformation that these systems are far cheaper than professional kit or are comparable in terms of quality or reliability.

Stoner

True I guess, I really mean the self install intruder alarm and home Auto combination.

To me it's a hobby. My home automation kit can double as an intruder alarm.

But I like having my wired intruder alarm..

There's added value and there is the benefit of a system that does not need constant messing with and batteries etc.


For me to he ring and nest hello doorbells are fantastic devices, very useful security devices that complement a home alarm.

bk

kub wrote: »

Hopefully HKC will be going down that route shortly, they are owned by Assa Abloy now, just like Yale, so are now all part of the same organisation.

Yes, if you combined the strengths of the Yale and HKC, you would have close to the perfect modern professional alarm system. Fingers crossed they do this.

2011 wrote: »

Now that I reflect on it I see that everything that BK has listed as an “additional feature” that the Yale system has over HKC is something that is in fact easily achieved with not just HKC but other high quality professional systems such as Vanderbilt.

You could say the same about the Yale system. It really wouldn't take much to make it perfect. Just add a wireless shock sensor and new wireless keypad and you'd have the same features as a HKC. You wouldn't even need a new hub!

You'd only need a new hub to add a 3g modem for backup comms. And Yale had that in previous systems, so they clearly have the tech for it.

If you look at the Honeywell Evohome Alarm system, you see a DIY system that matches all those features, optional 3g modem, etc. Unfortunately it seems their software seems lacking compared to Yale and they now seem more focused on selling it to the likes of that well known alarm installation company.

I'd argue what Yale have done is far from easy, I've actually reverse engineered their API for their app, they are using Amazon cloud services and it looks very well written. Explains why uptime and reliability of the monitoring is so good and notifications are pretty much instantaneous. I'm well impressed with their backend software.

I don't think HKC on their own would have been big enough to hire a team of experienced software engineers to build such a good backend system, hub software, iphone app, android app, apple watch app, alexa integration, hue integration, etc. This is all far from trivial and would require a decent size team.

Of course they are now part of Assa Alboy, so hopefully they can get help from the Yale and August software teams.

2011 wrote: »

I disagree. The “fun” or “toy” systems available in places like Harry Norman’s (such as SmartThings) are now quite popular. I just think it is important that people don’t believe the disinformation that these systems are far cheaper than professional kit or are comparable in terms of quality or reliability.

Well Smartthings is different, it isn't sold as an alarm system here in Europe (though they have the ADL Smartthings alarm system in the US), it is more focused on pure home automation. While some folks hack it into being used as an alarm system, Samsung don't recommend it to be used as such.

I'd agree that DIY alarm systems like Yale, Honeywell Evohome and now Amazon Ring, which are primarily alarm systems, but then are branching into smart home tech too, are quiet popular.

Amazon will sell a ship load of Ring Alarm systems on black friday!

I read a market report last year (sorry it was behind a paywall) that showed these new DIY alarm systems from big name brands like Google, Amazon, etc. were gaining significant market share, fastest growing segment in the market and they were predicting that they would make up the majority of alarm systems installs in a few years.

Now that was a report on the global market, so it could play out differently here. But I wouldn't be betting against the likes of Amazon, Google, etc.

Which is why I really hope the likes of HKC step up with modern, high tech pro install alarm systems to match and hopefully better them.

kub

2011 wrote: »

Looks are not important as it would be out of sight.



Discreet I/O that connect wirelessly with the main panel.

Ah I recall now, it came up in conversation some time ago, a wireless unit that could be used to control a gate etc.
What wonders one could work with a wireless relay?

I am looking forward to seeing it.

2011

bk wrote: »

Yes, if you combined the strengths of the Yale and HKC, you would have close to the perfect modern professional alarm system. Fingers crossed they do this.



You could say the same about the Yale system. It really wouldn't take much to make it perfect. Just add a wireless shock sensor and new wireless keypad and you'd have the same features as a HKC. You wouldn't even need a new hub!

You'd only need a new hub to add a 3g modem for backup comms. And Yale had that in previous systems, so they clearly have the tech for it.

If you look at the Honeywell Evohome Alarm system, you see a DIY system that matches all those features, optional 3g modem, etc. Unfortunately it seems their software seems lacking compared to Yale and they now seem more focused on selling it to the likes of that well known alarm installation company.

I'd argue what Yale have done is far from easy, I've actually reverse engineered their API for their app, they are using Amazon cloud services and it looks very well written. Explains why uptime and reliability of the monitoring is so good and notifications are pretty much instantaneous. I'm well impressed with their backend software.

I don't think HKC on their own would have been big enough to hire a team of experienced software engineers to build such a good backend system, hub software, iphone app, android app, apple watch app, alexa integration, hue integration, etc. This is all far from trivial and would require a decent size team.

Of course they are now part of Assa Alboy, so hopefully they can get help from the Yale and August software teams.



Well Smartthings is different, it isn't sold as an alarm system here in Europe (though they have the ADL Smartthings alarm system in the US), it is more focused on pure home automation. While some folks hack it into being used as an alarm system, Samsung don't recommend it to be used as such.

I'd agree that DIY alarm systems like Yale, Honeywell Evohome and now Amazon Ring, which are primarily alarm systems, but then are branching into smart home tech too, are quiet popular.

Amazon will sell a ship load of Ring Alarm systems on black friday!

I read a market report last year (sorry it was behind a paywall) that showed these new DIY alarm systems from big name brands like Google, Amazon, etc. were gaining significant market share, fastest growing segment in the market and they were predicting that they would make up the majority of alarm systems installs in a few years.

Now that was a report on the global market, so it could play out differently here. But I wouldn't be betting against the likes of Amazon, Google, etc.

Which is why I really hope the likes of HKC step up with modern, high tech pro install alarm systems to match and hopefully better them.

^^^^ What has any of this got to do with the suitability of an alarm for a DIY install?

In this post you stated suggested that some brands were more suited to DIY, when I challenged that you switched the argument to which alarm has better home automation features.

Please explain why a Yale alarm is more suited to DIY install than a HKC or Vanderbilt system.





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Stoner

Lads we've gone completely off topic.

If you want to have thread about the strengths of a diy setup versus a professionally installed alarm please open a thread on it.

Also there's a bit of showmanship at play here. Talking about reverse engineering system software has nothing to do with the ops question.

Again open a thread on it.

Without failing into the same trap myself, most of the DIY alarm systems have issues.

The list of devices available on professionally certified alarm systems is not limited to two devices as stated above. There are more features.

Some of the iot features when offered on alarms add huge security issues. Geofencing features being a prime example.

So if you want to completely change the direction of a thread please stop, and open a thread on it, here or in the iot forum

Note again that some if the advice offered here is from a very limited and narrow experience foundation.

Often hobbiest down play the amount of constant attention their hobby takes up. Many don't want that, like me and cars, I've no interest in servicing my car. I will add and buy many iot devices but recognise that I've an interest in it, that others won't share

I can guarantee most here as someone who's had HKC, Siemens etc at home and used 100s in other projects and as someone with approximately 250 iot device at home that many if these units are very temperamental compared to the stable systems.

I recognize that many if these iot devices will be in the bin in a few years, but my security system won't be.


You need to spend time changing batteries reconnecting etc on many of the iot options.

The batteries in professional systems can last 5 years compared to 6 to 12 months on smarthings, to a few months on Arlo cameras etc.

I'm all for DIY. Some of these forums have been running for years. I'm very fast when reminding the professional installers not to downplay DIY kit and to remind people that it's legal to install an alarm on your own house.

Yes there are even better self install alarms coming along, but it's important to note that home automation is added value to a security system, the tail can't wag the dog.

Some of the downplaying of professionally installed systems is boarding on disinformation, added to win an argument rather than inform.

Again I understand I'm taking an unpopular position on this, but it's important to recognise that this needs some balance here, I might end up on the wrong side of more people as a result but so be it.

Páid

I've read through a lot of posts here and I'm lost. I am thinking of doing a self monitored HKC self install in a 3 bed semi-d.

I need a HKC panel, 3 wireless sensors, outdoor siren and wifi module (not sure about gsm backup).
What are the parts numbers I need?

bk

2011 wrote: »

^^^^ What has any of this got to do with the suitability of an alarm for a DIY install?

In this post you stated suggested that some brands were more suited to DIY, when I challenged that you switched the argument to which alarm has better home automation features.

Please explain why a Yale alarm is more suited to DIY install than a HKC or Vanderbilt system.

HKC and Vanderbilt are designed to be professionally installed systems. Of course if you have the requisite skills that a professional installer has, electrical wiring, electronics, etc. then of course you could set one of these systems up yourself. But most normal people wouldn't have these skills.

On the other hand, systems like Yale, Honeywell, Ring, etc. are specifically designed as consumer products, to be bought by ordinary consumers off Amazon and to be relatively easy for most ordinary people to set up and use.

2011, it is great that you have the skills to do a HKC install yourself and thus at a significant discount versus the same system versus a pro install. But most people don't have those skills and thus I'd argue such systems are suited to a much wider group of people, who don't want or can't afford a full pro install system and who don't have the skills to DIY one.

bk

Páid wrote: »

I've read through a lot of posts here and I'm lost. I am thinking of doing a self monitored HKC self install in a 3 bed semi-d.

I need a HKC panel, 3 wireless sensors, outdoor siren and wifi module (not sure about gsm backup).
What are the parts numbers I need?

Are you looking to get a professional install or DIY?

If a professional install, then what I'd recommend is you contact three installers and get them to come out and quote you for such a system.

If you are looking to do it DIY, then you can look here for the part numbers on the HKC website:
https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/

BTW I'd definitely go for the combined GSM/Wifi communicator. The wifi only card is old stock:

https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/communicators/gsm-wifi---gsm---securecomm-wworld-sim--wifi/

bk

I think there is a lot of confusion around terminology.

I've called systems DIY systems, that is probably bad terminology. There are generally two category of systems:

- Professionally Installed Systems (HKC, Vanderbilt, etc.)
- Consumer Installed Systems (Yale, Honeywell, Ring, etc.)

Either type can be DIY installed. Though obviously the consumer oriented systems are designed with that in mind as their primary install method, unlike the pro install systems which usually assume some specialist training and skills.

Of course interestingly you have the likes of the Honeywell Le Secure line, which could easily be installed by consumers, but are often installed as professional install systems by certain monitoring companies.

So the lines are certainly blurring.

IoT simply means Internet of Things and it pertains to any device that is internet connected. HKC, etc. systems with a wifi card and app are certainly IoT devices. Likewise are the newer Yale, Honeywell, etc. alarm systems.

Of course you can install a HKC device without a wifi card and it isn't an IoT device, just as you can buy older Yale, Honeywell alarms on Amazon that have no internet connectivity.

IoT does NOT mean Home Automation. They aren't the same thing. HA often requires devices to have IoT, but IoT is not HA, HA is an extra step beyond IoT.

I'm not sure why people keep bringing up SmartThings! It isn't an alarm system. It is purely a HA device and a poor one IME. You can sort of use it as alarm if you want, but I wouldn't recommend it.

The newer Yale, Honeywell, Ring are real alarm systems. They are designed as alarm systems, consumer oriented ones, that have IoT connectivity, but they are NOT HA devices. They have made small steps into HA, with integration with Alexa and Hue smart lighting. But those are very small steps and they are doing it in the right way. But they are still real alarms, designed first and foremost as alarm systems.

I hope to see the traditional professional install systems to modernise their comms, internet connectivity, apps and make similar slow and careful steps into HA.

Hopefully that helps clear up some confusion around terminology.

Páid

bk wrote: »

Are you looking to get a professional install or DIY?
If you are looking to do it DIY, then you can look here for the part numbers on the HKC website:
https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/

BTW I'd definitely go for the combined GSM/Wifi communicator. The wifi only card is old stock:

https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/communicators/gsm-wifi---gsm---securecomm-wworld-sim--wifi/

I'm looking to do DIY. There is a Visonic alarm panel in the hallway but it died some years ago. I'm planning to remove the panel and replace it with the HTC one.

Is this all I need?

One of each of these;
https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/control-panels--packs/q70-p1p2bp2r---quantum-packs/
https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/communicators/gsm-wifi---gsm---securecomm-wworld-sim--wifi/
https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/sounders---wireless/rf-sabb-b--rf-sabb-r---external-sounder---base-blue-or-red/

Three of these;
https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/intrusion-detectors---wireless/rf-pir---pir/

I don't want any keyfobs but I do want to use the HKC app.