GPs not taking on patients - how's that even legal?

tkrysiak

Happy New Year everyone !!!

As my username suggests, I am one of the Slav barbarians that have invaded Ireland nearly two decades ago. Dublin is home and has been one for a looong time now, my kids will know no other. Over the years I thought that I have come to understand everything there was about my new home but Today I got a shocker...

...wanted to book a GP visit but all GPs in Skerries refused to take on a new patient (LOL?) Now, do not get me wrong I do understand that GPs are under pressure and that they can be booked for a few days straight but to straight down refuse a new patient all together? Not sure if a doctor in India, China or Africa would even think of saying that to someone seeking a medical attention.

I have done a bit of research and it seems roughly 25% of Irish doctors follow such practice. That's even more shocking!

Are Irish doctors exempt from Hippocratic Oath?

How is that even allowed to happen? I would like to hear some insight, mostly from people involved with medical professions. My engineer's brain fails to process some logical issues at times and that is one such occasion.

tl;dr: WTF? How's that even possible?

strandroad

Do you mean that you would expect them to give you an appointment later in the week if currently overbooked? Yes I would too.

Are you a medical card patient? They may have quotas on MC.

tkrysiak

strandroad wrote: »

Do you mean that you would expect them to give you an appointment later in the week if currently overbooked? Yes I would too.

Are you a medical card patient? They may have quotas on MC.

Nope, I am more than happy to pay them full price for their time. Now I am in a situation where I have moved to a town where my family is refused to see a doctor...

I am more than happy to bring my kid to A&E every time he has a flu or call an ambulance but some poor bloke will bleed out on a sidewalk because of that.

Stheno

tkrysiak wrote: »

Nope, I am more than happy to pay them full price for their time. Now I am in a situation where I have moved to a town where my family is refused to see a doctor...

I am more than happy to bring my kid to A&E every time he has a flu or call an ambulance but some poor bloke will bleed out on a sidewalk because of that.

If they have no more capacity to take on New patients they can refuse to do so

LionelNashe

tkrysiak wrote: »

Happy New Year everyone !!!

As my username suggests, I am one of the Slav barbarians that have invaded Ireland nearly two decades ago. Dublin is home and has been one for a looong time now, my kids will know no other. Over the years I thought that I have come to understand everything there was about my new home but Today I got a shocker...

...wanted to book a GP visit but all GPs in Skerries refused to take on a new patient (LOL?) Now, do not get me wrong I do understand that GPs are under pressure and that they can be booked for a few days straight but to straight down refuse a new patient all together? Not sure if a doctor in India, China or Africa would even think of saying that to someone seeking a medical attention.

I have done a bit of research and it seems roughly 25% of Irish doctors follow such practice. That's even more shocking!

Are Irish doctors exempt from Hippocratic Oath?

How is that even allowed to happen? I would like to hear some insight, mostly from people involved with medical professions. My engineer's brain fails to process some logical issues at times and that is one such occasion.

tl;dr: WTF? How's that even possible?

Have you asked if they would see you on the basis that it's a one-off visit, while you're looking for a GP who has the capacity to take you on permanently?

tkrysiak

LionelNashe wrote: »

Have you asked if they would see you on the basis that it's a one-off visit, while you're looking for a GP who has the capacity to take you on permanently?

Yup, I was refused.

RasTa

Every GP in Skerries refused?

Peregrine

strandroad wrote: »

Do you mean that you would expect them to give you an appointment later in the week if currently overbooked? Yes I would too.

Are you a medical card patient? They may have quotas on MC.

No, as in the clinic isn't taking new patients.

It's happened to me before. I hadn't seen a doctor in around four years. Then I was really sick once and I was told by at least three different clinics that they're not taking any new patients or that a lot of their doctors are on holidays. I didn't see one in the end. Still don't have a regular GP other than one in the clinic in college that I went to a few times.

I got ill on Saturday night. There's a local GP that a few people in my family go to and is now probably my 'family GP'. They were closed Sunday (okay), New Year's Day (fine) and today. Rang another one and they're not taking on new patients.

tkrysiak

RasTa wrote: »

Every GP in Skerries refused?

Every one that was open Today.

tkrysiak

Peregrine wrote: »

No, as in the clinic isn't taking new patients.

It's happened to me before. I hadn't seen a doctor in around four years. Then I was really sick once and I was told by at least three different clinics that they're not taking any new patients or that a lot of their doctors are on holidays. I didn't see one in the end. Still don't have a regular GP other than one in the clinic in college that I went to a few times.

I got ill on Saturday night. There's a local GP that a few people in my family go to and is now probably my 'family GP'. They were closed Sunday (okay), New Year's Day (fine) and today. Rang another one and they're not taking on new patients.

Yup, exactly the same issue here. I mean we have one we used to go to in Dublin but I am not gonna make a journey every time I am sick. I will definitely not make the journey with a sick two year old casue that is just plain mad...

RasTa

tkrysiak wrote: »

Every one that was open Today.

Get onto RTE or some rag newspaper. They will carry this story. Should get an appointment then

Shaungoater

It's seems to be a common occurrence in north county Dublin. There is a new primary care centre in Balbriggan and a new doctor there too, maybe try there? They couldn't be full yet. There is bracken clinic (who are full) and another one just opened whose names escapes me, both in the primary care centre

tringle

Do you have any other family living there? Most gp clinics will take new patients if they already have a family member there. I know my daughter went to her Granny's GP in Skerries just before Christmas

seamus

Ultimately there's a public health and safety issue if a practice were to take on too many patients. During swell periods (like the current 'flu) it would mean that a practice would become overrun and as a result patients may not receive appropriate or timely care. So it would be negligent of the practice to take on more than it can handle.

If you presented at a doctor's practice claiming to be gravely ill, they wouldn't turn you away. That's their obligation. However GPs are wise to this and people who try to pull this trick will just have an ambulance called to bring them to A&E.

I understand the frustration, but I can see it from the other side. Doctors shouldn't be obliged to take on new patients if they don't have the capacity.

tkrysiak

seamus wrote: »

Ultimately there's a public health and safety issue if a practice were to take on too many patients. During swell periods (like the current 'flu) it would mean that a practice would become overrun and as a result patients may not receive appropriate or timely care. So it would be negligent of the practice to take on more than it can handle.

If you presented at a doctor's practice claiming to be gravely ill, they wouldn't turn you away. That's their obligation. However GPs are wise to this and people who try to pull this trick will just have an ambulance called to bring them to A&E.

I understand the frustration, but I can see it from the other side. Doctors shouldn't be obliged to take on new patients if they don't have the capacity.

Thanks appreciate the point of view from another perspective. What pissed me off is that one place gave me a booking for tomorrow but once they heard I actually wasn't their patient they said they couldn't see me!

Either way, something has to change - I bet that is one of the reasons A&Es are completely overrun.

listermint

Seamus I honestly don't believe this has anything to do with health and safety. I've come across the same practice in Wicklow refusing patients. But it appears medical card holders are taken with some nearly exclusively medical card holders.

Ive a suspicion that medical card holders come in frequently so gps can charge for each visit and turn them around quickly as there is less expectation of time spent as they are not paying their own cash.

So the gp could get through 6 medical card holders to 3 paying in terms of time.

It's a suspicion, but reasonable

Icemancometh

listermint wrote: »

Seamus I honestly don't believe this has anything to do with health and safety. I've come across the same practice in Wicklow refusing patients. But it appears medical card holders are taken with some nearly exclusively medical card holders.

Ive a suspicion that medical card holders come in frequently so gps can charge for each visit and turn them around quickly as there is less expectation of time spent as they are not paying their own cash.

So the gp could get through 6 medical card holders to 3 paying in terms of time.

It's a suspicion, but reasonable

You have the payment scheme for GPs completely backwards. No fee for item for medical card holders.

Del2005

listermint wrote: »

Seamus I honestly don't believe this has anything to do with health and safety. I've come across the same practice in Wicklow refusing patients. But it appears medical card holders are taken with some nearly exclusively medical card holders.

Ive a suspicion that medical card holders come in frequently so gps can charge for each visit and turn them around quickly as there is less expectation of time spent as they are not paying their own cash.

So the gp could get through 6 medical card holders to 3 paying in terms of time.

It's a suspicion, but reasonable

GPs get an annual payment for each medical card holder on their books. So no matter how many times a medical card holder visit they do not get any extra money and medical card holders go to the doctor way more often than non holders. If I ring my GP I will get an appointment for the next day as I don't have a medical card, if my brother rings he gets one next week due having a medical card.

c6ysaphjvqw41k

This post has been deleted.

cruizer101

Might be better posting in North County Dublin forum here if looking for recommendations.

Have to agree does seem bit crazy, live in skerries myself but havn't been to doc in over 20 years, so guessing would be in similar position to yourself if I needed to go.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Here we go

seamus wrote: »

Ultimately there's a public health and safety issue if a practice were to take on too many patients. During swell periods (like the current 'flu) it would mean that a practice would become overrun and as a result patients may not receive appropriate or timely care. So it would be negligent of the practice to take on more than it can handle.

If you presented at a doctor's practice claiming to be gravely ill, they wouldn't turn you away. That's their obligation. However GPs are wise to this and people who try to pull this trick will just have an ambulance called to bring them to A&E.

I understand the frustration, but I can see it from the other side. Doctors shouldn't be obliged to take on new patients if they don't have the capacity.

It's this same happened us all but one place was able to take us it's an over capacity issue if you ring the hse they will find you a gp in resonable distance as far as I'm aware its there duty then doctor cant refuse if they place you there over prescribed or not but this carries its own issues like above longer waiting times over worked practice etc etc

Lux23

It has happened to me before, I just went somewhere else.

Car99

What would you say is a reasonable amount of time to travel to see a GP?

danmanw8

listermint wrote: »

Seamus I honestly don't believe this has anything to do with health and safety. I've come across the same practice in Wicklow refusing patients. But it appears medical card holders are taken with some nearly exclusively medical card holders.

Ive a suspicion that medical card holders come in frequently so gps can charge for each visit and turn them around quickly as there is less expectation of time spent as they are not paying their own cash.

So the gp could get through 6 medical card holders to 3 paying in terms of time.

It's a suspicion, but reasonable

GPs don't get a a 'per visit' fee for medical card holders. You have it the complete wrong way around.

Lux23

Car99 wrote: »

What would you say is a reasonable amount of time to travel to see a GP?

I guess that depends on where you live and whether you had a car/bike etc.

tkrysiak

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

OMG, interview with a GP - scary thought ;-)
On one hand I am glad I am not the only one with the problem - on the other it is scary we are catching up with American healthcare standards...

.......

This post has been deleted.

tkrysiak

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ya, that was exactly what I meant ;-)

Fuko200

Ive been wondering about this aswell, my OH sprained her foot and was on it for 3 weeks before giving in and wanted to see her gp. They got a new building or something so she hasnt had a chance to attend the new place but when she called for an appointment they refused as she was considered a new patient - even though she wasnt? Is that legal or common?

Chiparus

I don't see what the problem is, if the GP practice is full, how can they take new patients ?


Otherwise waiting times to see a GP would be weeks or longer.
http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/access/average-gp-waiting-times-remain-at-two-weeks-despite-rescue-measures/20034534.article

milhous

GPs don't just refuse to take on new patients whether GMS or private for the craic, both are profitable. The problem is a shortage of GPs.
There is a shortage for numerous reasons, one being the demand and pressure they're under is making it an unattractive position, this is made worse by the free GP care schemes that are being rolled out.
The other is the fempi cuts during the recession that were not reinstated making it financially unattractive too.

I think I'd be complaining about investment in primary care instead of giving out about GPs who are up to their tits in work trying to look after their overbooked practise as it is.

Sleeper12

I'd imagine that the GP is thinking that it's not just one patient. I'd imagine they'd be worried or at least taking into account that you might have children under 6. The free GP card for under 6 years old is choking up GPs waiting rooms.

Fann Linn

milhous wrote: »

GPs don't just refuse to take on new patients whether GMS or private for the craic, both are profitable. The problem is a shortage of GPs.
There is a shortage for numerous reasons, one being the demand and pressure they're under is making it an unattractive position, this is made worse by the free GP care schemes that are being rolled out.
The other is the fempi cuts during the recession that were not reinstated making it financially unattractive too.

I think I'd be complaining about investment in primary care instead of giving out about GPs who are up to their tits in work trying to look after their overbooked practise as it is.

Nail on head. I believe the village of Frenchpark and its environs in Roscommon has no doctor since the other GP retired. This has resulted in the above population having to attend Castlerea, Boyle or Ballaghaderreen. Due to overstretched GPs in these towns already the situation as the op describes is not that unlikely to occur. Throw in all those free medical cards for children and gp only cards and the problem is exacerbated.
Something GPs predicted would happen.

Dr Brown

Del2005 wrote: »

GPs get an annual payment for each medical card holder on their books. So no matter how many times a medical card holder visit they do not get any extra money and medical card holders go to the doctor way more often than non holders. If I ring my GP I will get an appointment for the next day as I don't have a medical card, if my brother rings he gets one next week due having a medical card.

The media should expose the fact that medical card holders are treated as second class patients.

Stheno

I just read in the info that d doc have suspended their services as they are overwhelmed

pc7

If you are stuck at a weekend can’t recommend here high enough. I’d a sick little one and d doc we’re giving me an awful run around (not their fault they were busy), but paid and was seen in this place within the hour. I paid, I’d rather pay and get a good service than a free crap one. Meant I could get antibiotic as chemist still open. I’m no way affiliated with this place just used it and if I need a doc for me I’d use it, wouldn’t bother with d doc.
Weekend doctor
http://www.nassau.ie

Chiparus

Dr Brown wrote: »

The media should expose the fact that medical card holders are treated as second class patients.

And the fact that people buy health insurance to jump the queue.

We have a two tier health system, it needs to change.

thereality

OP your GP is not taking on patients, as it has a ton of patients like you on their book. If your child has a flu, what good is a GP for them unless they have serious underlying health issue? GP surgeries are full everyday of the week with people feeling entitled that they should see a GP instantly for a non-emergency or for an issue that a GP can't help them with. If you had an issue that warranted urgent medical attention, you would have seen a GP today.

There is zero benefit bringing a child to a GP with a flu. They will literally tell you to go to a pharmacy to get an OTC remedy and plenty of fluids. It is a viral infection, that antibiotics etc don't work on. If you bring your child to A&E with a flu, I seriously hope they charge you the €150 fee and tear shreds off your for as they can't help you with a common ailment.

Free GP visit cards have been a disaster for GPs. They have surgeries full of OAPs and under 5s who are not sick. I know a GP who saw several children one day, whose parents sent them to school. But still brought them to the GP as they were sick. The parents did not see that if their child was well enough to go to school, it was not sick enough to see a GP...

pc7

thereality wrote: »

If you bring your child to A&E with a flu, I seriously hope they charge you the €150 fee and tear shreds off your for as they can't help you with a common ailment.

Free GP visit cards have been a disaster for GPs. .

Agree with you on free gp care. Nothing should be totally free as it’s not appreciated properly and open to abuse. Even a €2 -€5 fee, something handed over makes it a service that would make people think a little first.
And A&E do charge €100 for kids even with gp card unless you’ve a letter. But it’s free if you’ve a medical card.

splinter65

RasTa wrote: »

Get onto RTE or some rag newspaper. They will carry this story. Should get an appointment then

RTÉ can appoint you to a GP

Chiparus

thereality wrote: »

OP your GP is not taking on patients, as it has a ton of patients like you on their book. If your child has a flu, what good is a GP for them unless they have serious underlying health issue? GP surgeries are full everyday of the week with people feeling entitled that they should see a GP instantly for a non-emergency or for an issue that a GP can't help them with. If you had an issue that warranted urgent medical attention, you would have seen a GP today.

There is zero benefit bringing a child to a GP with a flu. They will literally tell you to go to a pharmacy to get an OTC remedy and plenty of fluids. It is a viral infection, that antibiotics etc don't work on. If you bring your child to A&E with a flu, I seriously hope they charge you the €150 fee and tear shreds off your for as they can't help you with a common ailment.

Free GP visit cards have been a disaster for GPs. They have surgeries full of OAPs and under 5s who are not sick. I know a GP who saw several children one day, whose parents sent them to school. But still brought them to the GP as they were sick. The parents did not see that if their child was well enough to go to school, it was not sick enough to see a GP...

Can you tell the difference between meningitis and flu in a child?

Stoner

strandroad wrote:

Are you a medical card patient? They may have quotas on MC.

I rang oaklawn medical center today to make an appointment. They have a message service, you know the ones, press 1 for opening times, press 2 for reception etc.

They state right at the start that
"Unfortunately we are not taking new patients"

That's without speaking to me or asking if I was a MC holder etc

splinter65

tkrysiak wrote: »

Happy New Year everyone !!!

As my username suggests, I am one of the Slav barbarians that have invaded Ireland nearly two decades ago. Dublin is home and has been one for a looong time now, my kids will know no other. Over the years I thought that I have come to understand everything there was about my new home but Today I got a shocker...

...wanted to book a GP visit but all GPs in Skerries refused to take on a new patient (LOL?) Now, do not get me wrong I do understand that GPs are under pressure and that they can be booked for a few days straight but to straight down refuse a new patient all together? Not sure if a doctor in India, China or Africa would even think of saying that to someone seeking a medical attention.

I have done a bit of research and it seems roughly 25% of Irish doctors follow such practice. That's even more shocking!

Are Irish doctors exempt from Hippocratic Oath?

How is that even allowed to happen? I would like to hear some insight, mostly from people involved with medical professions. My engineer's brain fails to process some logical issues at times and that is one such occasion.

tl;dr: WTF? How's that even possible?

Not enough GPs in the country OP.
Who would want to be a GP?
Not me.
Oh the money’s great but your head would be wrecked.
Since they gave free cover to under 6s and over 70s it’s been bedlam. No more then it’s not illegal for your local restaurant to say “Sorry! All booked tonight!” It’s not illegal either for a GP to say “Sorry! Full!”.

thereality

Chiparus wrote: »

Can you tell the difference between meningitis and flu in a child?

Yes. Do you not remember the non-stop ads in the 90s and 00s that show children with meningitis dislike bright lights and use the glass test to see if the spots/rash go away?

If people feel the need to go to their GP everytime their child has a sniff or a high temperature just to be safe, we need to offer more health classes

tricky D

@suckit do not post in this thread again. Posts removed.

Helpful answers pls.

Wesser

A gp is a private contractor just like any other. They can choose to refuse business if they want.
Say for example you had a job for a plumber, you call a plumber and he says I'm sorry I'm booked out until summer time. Or an architect. Or whatever private contractor you want to put in. I recently tried to hire an architect and he just said sorry not taking any more bookings full up.

A gp is a human being just like everyone else. They have kids and families and lives. Sure you say.... but I just need 10 mins..... it won't take a second.....but that what everyone wants..... just a second.... along with under 6 s overrflowing and paper work paper work paper work all overflowing+++++ so the doctor goes from finishing work at 8pm to finishing at 10pm..... then the doctor becomes angry and frustrated and more likely to make mistakes and more likely to burn out and quit..... then there's 1 less doctor. .....


There is not enough gp s in ireland we are short approx 600 gp s. Little by little the people are going to see the effect . Why are there so few doctors in Ireland? Poor working conditions, work overload and poor pay. They can get much better conditions in Australia or Canada. Of course I'm referring to the medical card contract .... not the private work..... which is well paid. A medical.card allows for unlimited work for a fixed fee. In some cases its 40 euros a year for one medical ard patient. For unlimited visits!!!! Would a plumber agree to that? Unlimited work for a fixed fee? Not a chance!!!

Unfortunately even though you are not a medical card patient....the underfunding of GP for many years with 40 % cuts to funding jn the recession is slowly slowly driving young GP S out . It's affecting you even though it's not your fault and you are not a medical card patient.

It certainly not illegal.for him.or her to say No, and is within medical council guidelines. Hippocratic oath is not relevant here, it is only relevant to an immediate life threstening illness and is not something that you should unfairly dangled over a doctor who is exhausted.

Hope your feeling better by the way.

Chiparus

thereality wrote: »

Yes. Do you not remember the non-stop ads in the 90s and 00s that show children with meningitis dislike bright lights and use the glass test to see if the spots/rash go away?

If people feel the need to go to their GP everytime their child has a sniff or a high temperature just to be safe, we need to offer more health classes

Non blanching rashes and dislike of bright lights are inconsistent and often late signs of meningitis, the most common feature is flu like symptoms.

BTW influenza also kills children.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/girl-8-dies-of-flu-in-melbourne-hospital-20170917-gyjdml.html
But you think anyone who brings their child to A&E with flu should be charged €150 and have shreds torn off ?

Cedrus

Car99 wrote: »

What would you say is a reasonable amount of time to travel to see a GP?

It's not just the time, but how easily you can get to the doctor when you are really sick.
I've had to call a taxi in the past because I was't able to drive. Once with a double ear infection that totally messed up my sense of balance and a couple of times when I was so drowned with colds that I'd have a better chance driving home from the pub with a skinful (not that I would). I would be a different kind of sick if the taxi to and from the surgery cost more than the doctor.

imme

Do you think that all the doctors in Skerries are discriminating against you OP.
That's the way your opening post goes.

Can your former doctor refer you to a new GP?
Can you see your old GP?

Any GP practice that I am familiar with are generally busy.
I don't understand how all that you have approached have refused you as a patient.


As an aside how would I know that you are from Eastern Europe from your username.

Del2005

Dr Brown wrote: »

The media should expose the fact that medical card holders are treated as second class patients.

I doubt that my doctor is unique so the media already knows.

The doctor has to have appointments available for paying patients so maybe the fact that people who pay rarely visit the doctor means that they have more slots available for them, as opposed to the medical card holders who go to the doctor more often. If they don't have paying patients then the medical card holders will have no doctor. At the end of the day the doctor needs to make a profit and with the medical card that's impossible