PP sought for housing devt. at Blakes/Esmonde Motors site in Stillorgan

coylemj

I spotted a planning application notice on the external wall of the old Blakes restaurant site the other day, was driving so couldn't take a look but I reckon it relates to this proposal .......

Cairn Homes Properties Limited intend to apply to An Bord Pleanála for planning permission for a strategic housing development at the former Blakes and Esmonde Motors sites, Lower Kilmacud Road, the Stillorgan Road (N11) and The Hill, Stillorgan Co. Dublin. The site is located to the south east of Stillorgan Village Centre, to the west of the N11, and to the north and north east of The Hill

https://www.stillorganresplanning.com/

ted1

Here’s the application

http://planning.dlrcoco.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=ABP-300520-17&amp;backURL=<a href=wphappcriteria.display>Search Criteria</a> > <a href='wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=2437574&StartIndex=81&SortOrder=rgndat:desc&DispResultsAs=wphappsresweek1&BackURL=<a href=wphappcriteria.display>Search Criteria</a>'>Search Results</a>

Larbre34

Looks the part, ideal for a location well served by public transport and excellent local facilities and long past the time that derelict site shouldve been turned over. Hope it flies through and gets building quick smart.

coylemj

I see the developers claim that this is a 'strategic' housing development and presumably that's why they're going direct to An Bord Pleanala but I can't see what's 'strategic' about a residential development

BTW, I don't blame them for bypassing the local authority (DLR co co) because it will minimize the impact of nuisance objectors who would probably have caused the application to end with with ABP anyway so good luck to the developers but I'm wondering can anyone label their PP application as 'strategic'?

Larbre34

Student accommodation = strategic.

AnBP could of course dismiss that contention and refer it back to DLR. Either way, locals are well funded in that neck of the woods, they can afford to object if they wish at either forum.

ted1

coylemj wrote: »

I see the developers claim that this is a 'strategic' housing development and presumably that's why they're going direct to An Bord Pleanala but I can't see what's 'strategic' about a residential development

BTW, I don't blame them for bypassing the local authority (DLR co co) because it will minimize the impact of nuisance objectors who would probably have caused the application to end with with ABP anyway so good luck to the developers but I'm wondering can anyone label their PP application as 'strategic'?

Student accommodation is strategic and frees up housing stick for families

Awaaf

Seems like a great location for this development.

homer911

With takeaways, pubs, off-licenses, cinema and supermarkets on their doorstep its a great location, with limited impact on local traffic due to presumed use of buses and bikes

cobham

It would also be ideal for apartment scheme for downsizers living in the locality, I see there is a mix of units between student type accomodation and apartments, mostly one bedroomed.

headtheball14

This location is scandalous according to your local councillor Deirdre Donnelly

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/councillor-brands-plan-to-build-student-apartments-on-prime-site-as-scandalous-36524255.html

No facilities in the area and apparently it's dangerous for young women in particular to live in off campus accommodation
I had to look up to see where this hell hole was as it couldn't be the same stillorgan blakes that I remembered from years ago

ted1

headtheball14 wrote: »

This location is scandalous according to your local councillor Deirdre Donnelly

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/councillor-brands-plan-to-build-student-apartments-on-prime-site-as-scandalous-36524255.html

No facilities in the area and apparently it's dangerous for young women in particular to live in off campus accommodation
I had to look up to see where this hell hole was as it couldn't be the same stillorgan blakes that I remembered from years ago

Who votes for idiots like her? Clueless.

wowy

headtheball14 wrote: »

This location is scandalous according to your local councillor Deirdre Donnelly

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/councillor-brands-plan-to-build-student-apartments-on-prime-site-as-scandalous-36524255.html

No facilities in the area and apparently it's dangerous for young women in particular to live in off campus accommodation
I had to look up to see where this hell hole was as it couldn't be the same stillorgan blakes that I remembered from years ago

She's a fool. She and Shane Ross made a holy show of themselves in the Irish Times giving out about permission being granted for a residential development at the back of Oatlands. I see on her website she doesn't want resi development at the derelict Glass Bottle Site in Goatstown. She gave out when UCD applied straight to ABP for their recent student accommodation development (saying that bypassing the local authority was undemocratic - it's a price worth paying if it cuts these self-serving Councillors from the process IMO).

But now she has the gall to say that this site should be used solely for residential. I live 5 minutes from the site - filling the site with a load of apartments (likely for local downsizers, or whoever, but they'll all have cars) would be a traffic nightmare. 103 apartments and 576 student bed spaces wouldn't cause the same sort of traffic nightmare, and will be much more beneficial for local business than solely an apartment development.

Looking at some of her arguments:

Safety, especially for women - a bright, busy, high density student residence in the middle of Stillorgan Village is multiple times safer than, say, getting off the last bus at UCD flyover and walking alone through the dark, deserted UCD campus at midnight.

No student facilities - yeah, students hate having Lidl and Tesco on their doorstep, going to the cinema (on their doorstep), going bowling (on their doorstep), having restaurants and takeaways (on their doorstep), pubs (on their doorstep) and cafés (on their doorstep), and immediate access to the Stillorgan QBC and bike lane.

Vacancy for parts of the year - she's obviously never gotten on the 46a over the summer when every bus is completely rammed with spanish summer students. Where does she think that they all go?

"She is not opposed to new building". Your record suggests otherwise Councillor.

Y'know, I'm actually getting so annoyed, and seeing as she's one of my Councillors I might email her to give out.

Idbatterim

It can go straight to abp as it's over 100 units or 200 student bed spaces... they do have to consult with council first though. Afaik... wonder how much longer the leisureplex facility will last ...

I just read that article. What an idiot. She actually thinks they will be lying idle during the summer ?! Lol!

Larbre34

Thankfully she has no say in approving the plans or not. What weak and transparent comment. Those apartments will arguably be more lucrative in the summer through lettings for holidaymakers, corporate and sporting events, not to mention UCDs own summer programme.

Its certainly a bold looking design but i like the finish, much higher quality than so much contemporary stuff.

ted1

I worked for USIT years ago, they ran the UCD student apartments during the summer. Always busy, plenty of groups and teams using local facilities aswell as language students

coylemj

ted1 wrote: »

Who votes for idiots like her? Clueless.

Older people (most of whom vote) who believe that by keeping a cap on the population density, it will lead to a more peaceful neighbourhood and maintain property values.

That is the message (whether subliminal or overt) being sold by nimby councillors like that lady. And as most students won't bother to register to vote, she has nothing to lose (electorally) by adopting that stance.

'Look at me, I'm sticking my neck out and taking flak to preserve Stillorgan for the locals and to keep out marauding hoards of drunk and rowdy students who will run riot at weekends and spoil our peaceful neighbourhood.'

Spanish Eyes

Surely, (apart from digs in First Year), Student acommodation will actually improve the availability of other properties for those who will live in them full time. I must be mad though to say that!

Great site there indeed. I remember going to Blakes back in the day, was my Dad's favourite place, but he is gone now, so happy memories!

Every time a suggestion is mooted to actually help the housing situation for long termers, it is NIMBY'd.

Build it and they will come!

Larbre34

coylemj wrote: »

'Look at me, I'm sticking my neck out and taking flak to preserve Stillorgan for the locals and to keep out marauding hoards of drunk and rowdy students who will run riot at weekends and spoil our peaceful neighbourhood.'

And spend buckets of money in pubs and shops. Its really could be a massive rebirth for the village area

Blut2

600 odd students and 200 odd other people in the apartments would bring a big chunk of change to the shops in the area. If every one of them spent 50eur a week in the shops (which is almost certainly lowballing it) its 40k a week in new custom.

I'd say the cinema, McDonalds/Eddie Rockets and Tesco/Lidl in particular will be licking their lips at the prospect.

cobham

I rechon the student based proposal is to get a quicker start on the site as it allows them to bypass the local authority. Cairn also have the Montrose site and will take their time with that 'prime site'. That site is actually closer to Belfield.

Yes a great site for down sizers in the area but a decent scheme is needed aimed at older people. Then so many houses in area would be freed up for families or even house sharing students!

The non student units are tiny slots, no doubt aimed at rental market for investors even parents of students.

It is a prime site on N11 and should be imaginatively designed, that junction needs some statement building/feature to indicate the closeness of Stillorgan/main intersection.

And what is happening with the bowling alley/library? I am growing old waiting for a permanent library to serve the area. And the swimming pool.....:(

Idbatterim

I just looked at the leuisureplex site and the library, there is also the small row of shops and a few houses. If that entire site could be redeveloped, it would create over 1000 bed spaces if at the same density as proposed for the site next door. it looks to be well over double the size...

coylemj

cobham wrote: »

And what is happening with the bowling alley/library? I am growing old waiting for a permanent library to serve the area. And the swimming pool.....:(

Idbatterim wrote: »

I just looked at the leuisureplex site and the library, there is also the small row of shops and a few houses. If that entire site could be redeveloped, it would create over 1000 bed spaces if at the same density as proposed for the site next door. it looks to be well over double the size...

Is the bowling alley on land owned by the council or why are it and the library being discussed as if they constituted an entity capable of being developed to a single plan?

cobham

I feel the bowling alley land is open for redevelopment. There was a plan proposed once to redevelop four sites as one ie shopping centre, bowling Alley, Ormonde site and Blakes/Esmonde. It was a grandiose scheme involving relocation of the road from Stillorgan Decor to the N11 by running it underground to skirt the northern boundary. This fell by the wayside with Dundrum getting ahead as a major retail centre.

Idbatterim

coylemj wrote: »

Is the bowling alley on land owned by the council or why are it and the library being discussed as if they constituted an entity capable of being developed to a single plan?

I dont think they are. My point is, if that entire site was to be redeveloped, you could have library at ground level and apartments, student accomodation above. What is currently occupying those sites is such a waste of space!

wowy

cobham wrote: »

And what is happening with the bowling alley/library? I am growing old waiting for a permanent library to serve the area. And the swimming pool.....:(

The Leisureplex site was bought by Kennedy Wilson (owners of the Stillorgan SC) about 18 months ago. I assume at some point they'll redevelop.

http://www.sherryfitz.ie/files/SAM//24979/WWW/Stillorgan%20Brochure.pdf

You can see from the brochure how big the site is, and that the library site and the row of council houses obviously weren't included. There's 16 Maisonettes in there, 14 of which are boarded up. DLRCC coming under pressure to renovate them:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/council-urged-to-reopen-16-empty-bedsits-in-stillorgan-1.3222688

There was talk of building a new pool at the library site, but that has now been dropped in favour of renovating/rebuilding the pool at Glenalbyn. There's been no progress on that in the last 6 months (since the decision to abandon the library site was made) that I can see.

The logical thing for the library site is to do a masterplan with Kennedy Wilson, give up the site in return for a new library, community services and additional council-owned apartments (over-and-above the minimum social housing requirements) in a large development of the entire.

There's currently a draft LAP being considered, which identifies the library site and leisureplex as a key site, and notes the need for co-operation among developers and landowners.

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/planning/local-area-plans/stillorgan-draft-local-area-plan-2018-%E2%80%93-2024

The Council are under pressure to renovate the Maisonettes - they could spend €1.5M to do that, only to then knock them all in a few years as part of a large redevelopment. Rock and a hard place....

Edit.

I note from the brochure and also from the commercial lease register that the lease for Leisureplex is short-term - there was a 2-year renewal from March 2017. There could be movement on this site sooner rather than later.

bleary

wowy wrote: »

There's 16 Maisonettes in there, 14 of which are boarded up

Surely you must be mistaken ; our housing minister has been assured by the council that there are only 77 vacant properties in the entire council area

www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/number-of-vacant-homes-in-dublin-said-to-be-between-900-and-1-000-1.3368771%3fmode=amp

Idbatterim

wowy wrote: »

The Leisureplex site was bought by Kennedy Wilson (owners of the Stillorgan SC) about 18 months ago. I assume at some point they'll redevelop.

http://www.sherryfitz.ie/files/SAM//24979/WWW/Stillorgan%20Brochure.pdf

You can see from the brochure how big the site is, and that the library site and the row of council houses obviously weren't included. There's 16 Maisonettes in there, 14 of which are boarded up. DLRCC coming under pressure to renovate them:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/council-urged-to-reopen-16-empty-bedsits-in-stillorgan-1.3222688

There was talk of building a new pool at the library site, but that has now been dropped in favour of renovating/rebuilding the pool at Glenalbyn. There's been no progress on that in the last 6 months (since the decision to abandon the library site was made) that I can see.

The logical thing for the library site is to do a masterplan with Kennedy Wilson, give up the site in return for a new library, community services and additional council-owned apartments (over-and-above the minimum social housing requirements) in a large development of the entire.

There's currently a draft LAP being considered, which identifies the library site and leisureplex as a key site, and notes the need for co-operation among developers and landowners.

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/planning/local-area-plans/stillorgan-draft-local-area-plan-2018-%E2%80%93-2024

The Council are under pressure to renovate the Maisonettes - they could spend €1.5M to do that, only to then knock them all in a few years as part of a large redevelopment. Rock and a hard place....

Edit.

I note from the brochure and also from the commercial lease register that the lease for Leisureplex is short-term - there was a 2-year renewal from March 2017. There could be movement on this site sooner rather than later.

leave the maisonettes free, what would replace them if developed as one scheme, would deliver 15-20 the density I am assuming... more probably! If they are indeed vacant, that is fantastic! these new apartment guidelines will also make apartment development profitable or more profitable...

Larbre34

Last I heard was that the prefab library and maisonettes were going to be demolished by the Council and a new swimming pool built there to replace the problem child Glenalbyn centre, with a new library included as part of the complex. Cllr Donnelly and her colleague Sir Winston Churchtown have long been giving out about Glenalbyn not be repaired and reopened, but to my mind, it would be cheaper in the long term to do a new build on a Council owned site.

Idbatterim

what is the issue with putting in a pool a library etc and 9 floors of accommodation above it, like proposed on the blakes site? I thought we didnt have enough social housing and a housing crisis?

patrickbrophy18

According to The Irish Times, planning permission has been granted for the development. It needed to be done in my opinion!

However, I still have fond memories of Bondi Beach their in spite of the absolute dive that it was!

It will be interesting to see what development goes up in the site of the current Leisure Plex as there are rumors of it and surrounding properties being bought out as well.

In any case, Stillorgan is going to eventually regain the status it lost to Dundrum albeit with a different purpose.

Blut2

Thats good news. If a large apartment complex gets approved for Leisureplex as well its going to make the area quite high density population wise. I'd say the local shops will be delighted.

homer911

I agree with both of the last comments, but do have concerns about the traffic/parking implications

Idbatterim

homer911 wrote: »

I agree with both of the last comments, but do have concerns about the traffic/parking implications

the new residents will have everything on their doorstep... they will only have to drive if going further afield. Also the N11 with endless buses is a few second walk away...

Blut2

Between most of the area on-street parking being pay&display parking already, and most of the apartments going to students, I'd say there shouldn't be too much of a road traffic increase. Can't see many of the apartment holders paying for a permanent p&d spot.

The only thing it might do is expand the pay&display zone outwards a bit, probably to the other side of the N11 and down a few hundred meters.

coylemj

Blut2 wrote: »

Between most of the area on-street parking being pay&display parking already, and most of the apartments going to students, I'd say there shouldn't be too much of a road traffic increase. Can't see many of the apartment holders paying for a permanent p&d spot.

The only thing it might do is expand the pay&display zone outwards a bit, probably to the other side of the N11 and down a few hundred meters.

The other side of the N11 is Stillorgan Park Road where there is no parking at all on the main road all the way to Carysfort Ave. and I'm pretty certain the local residents don't want new people parking overnight in the estates.

In case anyone points out that Stillorgan Park Road doesn't have double yellow lines, it does have a continuous white line down the centre which, as well as outlawing overtaking, also forbids parking on both sides.

caviardreams

Is there no underground parking as part of the development? I know it's expensive but I would have thought it was desirable for the non-student units at least.

Blut2

coylemj wrote: »

The other side of the N11 is Stillorgan Park Road where there is no parking at all on the main road all the way to Carysfort Ave. and I'm pretty certain the local residents don't want new people parking overnight in the estates.

In case anyone points out that Stillorgan Park Road doesn't have double yellow lines, it does have a continuous white line down the centre which, as well as outlawing overtaking, also forbids parking on both sides.

My point is that the estates on the other side of the N11 will likely move to pay & display to prevent exactly that.

ted1

Idbatterim wrote: »

homer911 wrote: »

I agree with both of the last comments, but do have concerns about the traffic/parking implications

the new residents will have everything on their doorstep... they will only have to drive if going further afield. Also the N11 with endless buses is a few second walk away...

And cycle lane

EricPraline

Idbatterim wrote: »

the new residents will have everything on their doorstep... they will only have to drive if going further afield. Also the N11 with endless buses is a few second walk away...

Minor point, but many Dublin-based students live there during the week, and drive home at the weekend. That's where the requirement for a parking space comes in.

coylemj

EricPraline wrote: »

Minor point, but many Dublin-based students live there during the week, and drive home at the weekend. That's where the requirement for a parking space comes in.

I haven't read the details of the planning application but I assume that when it's flagged as student accommodation, there will be very limited parking. And having a parking space to keep a car idle for all of Monday to Friday in Dublin is a luxury that very few students will be able to afford, let alone that landlords will be able to provide in new builds.

wowy

Just bumping this as this relates to the boarded-up Council housing beside the library.

http://www.eoghanmurphy.ie/2018/05/25/20m-social-affordable-housing-in-stillorgan/

Eoghan Murphy saying that there is funding for a €20M development of social and affordable housing. Knock the existing social housing and build a 9-storey development. Consultation with DLRCC and Dept of Housing to commence shortly.

It's silent about whether the library site is included in the development or not.

wowy

wowy wrote: »

Just bumping this as this relates to the boarded-up Council housing beside the library.

http://www.eoghanmurphy.ie/2018/05/25/20m-social-affordable-housing-in-stillorgan/

Eoghan Murphy saying that there is funding for a €20M development of social and affordable housing. Knock the existing social housing and build a 9-storey development. Consultation with DLRCC and Dept of Housing to commence shortly.

It's silent about whether the library site is included in the development or not.

Bumping this again as DLRCC have now launched a public consultation for the proposed works, for 88 apartments and a new library.

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/housing/pc-h-01-20-housing-development-at-st-laurences-par/?fbclid=IwAR2u9KHyPwgd404GyAIarGElGR9NunwdPvY3rcNN7yOVQ7nggwuWZZJNOkA


This aerial CGI shows this proposed development along with the permitted Leisureplex site & Blakes/Esmonde site developments:

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/housing/pc-h-01-20-housing-development-at-st-laurences-par/supporting_documents/776_PA_46.pdf

Serious changes afoot for Stillorgan.

coylemj

wowy wrote: »

Bumping this again as DLRCC have now launched a public consultation for the proposed works, for 88 apartments and a new library.

Bump all you like but in over two years, nobody responded to your first post (#41) on that topic.

Might be time to consider starting a new thread as you're referring to a county council funded project which is on a completely different site?

Blut2

wowy wrote: »

Bumping this again as DLRCC have now launched a public consultation for the proposed works, for 88 apartments and a new library.

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/housing/pc-h-01-20-housing-development-at-st-laurences-par/?fbclid=IwAR2u9KHyPwgd404GyAIarGElGR9NunwdPvY3rcNN7yOVQ7nggwuWZZJNOkA


This aerial CGI shows this proposed development along with the permitted Leisureplex site & Blakes/Esmonde site developments:

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/housing/pc-h-01-20-housing-development-at-st-laurences-par/supporting_documents/776_PA_46.pdf

Serious changes afoot for Stillorgan.

Looks great. Hopefully it all gets built sooner rather later. All those additional residents will be fantastic for the businesses in the area.

The student accommodation may be being binned in favour of a build to rent scheme with substantially more units.

Larbre34

Yakov P. Golyadkin wrote: »

The student accommodation may be being binned in favour of a build to rent scheme with substantially more units.

Where did you hear this?

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

Where did you hear this?

Sorry for the delay responding.

Via a friend, consultants sought a PAC back in early March for an expanded BTR scheme. With all that has happened since I'm not sure if the meeting has taken place. No sign of any imminent works on the site though and the student accommodation was granted two years ago I believe.

machiavellianme

Blut2 wrote: »

Looks great. Hopefully it all gets built sooner rather later. All those additional residents will be fantastic for the businesses in the area.

Not for the leisureplex though. With that many extra people living on top of each other, one of the things making stillorgan desirable will disappear. There'll be less to do and likely more cars competing for the free parking, which will probably start charging.

AndrewJRenko

machiavellianme wrote: »

Not for the leisureplex though. With that many extra people living on top of each other, one of the things making stillorgan desirable will disappear. There'll be less to do and likely more cars competing for the free parking, which will probably start charging.

The free parking is already time limited. I don't think people will be driving from Blakes over to the Shopping Centre, will they?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/114380180#Comment_114380180

A year and change later, Cairn have a pre-planning consultation with ABP for 318 BTR units and crèche. 'Decision' on December 15th.

The old library was finally torn down in the last couple of days, I suspect the maisonettes will follow shortly. Work on the Leisureplex site seems to be gathering pace too, Stillorgan will look radically different in 5 years.

Larbre34

And how. But I look forward to it at this stage, the dereliction by the N11 for the last decade or so has been depressing looking, particularly for those of us who remember Dads buying cars in Esmondes, eating in a packed out Blake's and meeting up with girls in the Bowler long before mobile communications!

Time for new beginnings.