Zero Tolerance State

HONKEY TONK

Should Ireland become a zero tolerance state in relation to criminal offenses?

Guilty = Fine or Prison run on Maximum penilities

No ifs/buts or sob stories.

Revenue collects fines / Use tax to build prisons.

Odhinn

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Should Ireland become a zero tolerance state in relation to criminal offenses?

Guilty = Fine or Prison run on Maximum penilities

No ifs/buts or sob stories.

Revenue collects fines / Use tax to build prisons.

Doesn't work, so whats the point?

PopePalpatine

Odhinn wrote: »

Doesn't work, so whats the point?

"Virtue signalling", but for the Right.

Odhinn

PopePalpatine wrote: »

"Virtue signalling", but for the Right.

"righteous heiling"?

evolving_doors

Hohoho merry Christm...hey wait....WTF!!
Who the heck is thinking about more prisons and higher taxes at this time?

SEPT 23 1989

We could also build a mega tower block for all the homeless to live in which would be easier to police

Hector Bellend

Crack one off.

HONKEY TONK

evolving_doors wrote: »

Hohoho merry Christm...hey wait....WTF!!
Who the heck is thinking about more prisons and higher taxes at this time?

people like this

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/family-helped-tackle-criminal-who-had-travelled-from-dublin-to-cork-to-carry-out-burglary-spree-36430405.html

Detectives believe the man travelled from Dublin to west Cork specifically for the purpose of conducting a series of raids on homes with cash and gifts collected for the festive season being the primary target.

mad muffin

For serious crimes, yes.

pitifulgod

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Should Ireland become a zero tolerance state in relation to criminal offenses?

Guilty = Fine or Prison run on Maximum penilities

No ifs/buts or sob stories.

Revenue collects fines / Use tax to build prisons.

The US has the most overpopulated prison system in the globe. Crime rates tend to be substantially higher than rest of Western World. So build a ridiculously expensive prison system, likely increase the crime rate...

server down

Odhinn wrote: »

Doesn't work, so whats the point?

I don’t get the idea that higher prison sentences can’t work. That would mean that no prison sentence works.

OnDraught

We would end up with a tiny working population. Nobody to run our banks, drive taxis, say mass etc. The country would collapse.

HONKEY TONK

pitifulgod wrote: »

The US has the most overpopulated prison system in the globe. Crime rates tend to be substantially higher than rest of Western World. So build a ridiculously expensive prison system, likely increase the crime rate...

So not sending criminals to prison reduces crime rate?

Odhinn

server down wrote: »

I don’t get the idea that higher prison sentences can’t work. That would mean that no prison sentence works.

It's not an idea, its a fact. All stick doesn't work. Thats why people refer to the scandanavian model - reform or tough sentence.

server down

pitifulgod wrote: »

The US has the most overpopulated prison system in the globe. Crime rates tend to be substantially higher than rest of Western World. So build a ridiculously expensive prison system, likely increase the crime rate...

Actually crime has fallen there in the last generation.

and correlation is not causation. The US may have a high incarceration but that doesn’t mean that causes crime.

Fr_Dougal

We should bring back the death penalty. 🤯

El_Duderino 09

mad muffin wrote: »

For serious crimes, yes.

By ‘serious crimes’ I presume you mean crimes that you would never be likely to commit. E.g. you don’t do drugs, get in or fights burgle houses do throw the book at those crimes. But not for speeding, failing to pay appropriate tax or any other crime you* could commit.

The royal you. In other words you support this type of justice system for other people.

El_Duderino 09

mad muffin wrote: »

For serious crimes, yes.

By ‘serious crimes’ I presume you mean crimes that you would never be likely to commit. E.g. you don’t do drugs, get in or fights burgle houses do throw the book at those crimes. But not for speeding, failing to pay appropriate tax or any other crime you* could commit.

The royal you. In other words you support this type of justice system for other people.

server down

Odhinn wrote: »

It's not an idea, its a fact. All stick doesn't work. Thats why people refer to the scandanavian model - reform or tough sentence.

Is the solution to higher crime rates lower sentences then? And clearly Ireland is failing to rehabilitate as well, or rather the criminals are.

I don’t mind the idea that you rehabilitate or get a higher sentence since that’s a lot more realistic than a slap on the wrist after 160 convictions. Chance would be a fine thing.

That needs more prisons though.

server down

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

By ‘serious crimes’ I presume you mean crimes that you would never be likely to commit. E.g. you don’t do drugs, get in or fights burgle houses do throw the book at those crimes. But not for speeding, failing to pay appropriate tax or any other crime you* could commit.

The royal you. In other words you support this type of justice system for other people.

Any chance you’d argue against points people actually make?

pitifulgod

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

So not sending criminals to prison reduces crime rate?

Aiming to reform criminals seems to be one of the best routes. Putting people in prison and actually attempting reform via it is fine. However there are plenty of crimes where people are imprisoned where they simply shouldn't be and it will lead them further into criminality. Eg minor drug offences. This is the route the likes of Norway follows.

In addition to this, counteracting the causative factors for crimes is proper crime prevention. This includes reducing poverty and increasing quality of education to point where you don't end up with educationally deprived areas. Loads more but zero tolerance policies aren't a solution and a pretty expensive road to go down.

server down

pitifulgod wrote: »

Aiming to reform criminals seems to be one of the best routes. Putting people in prison and actually attempting reform via it is fine. However there are plenty of crimes where people are imprisoned where they simply shouldn't be and it will lead them further into criminality. Eg minor drug offences. This is the route the likes of Norway follows.

In addition to this, counteracting the causative factors for crimes is proper crime prevention. This includes reducing poverty and increasing quality of education to point where you don't end up with educationally deprived areas. Loads more but zero tolerance policies aren't a solution and a pretty expensive road to go down.

We have a very low incarceration rate. We also have very high transfers to social welfare (which I agree with).

I doubt that poverty causes high level criminality anyway - many criminals in criminal enterprises earn multiples of what ordinary people earn.

El_Duderino 09

server down wrote: »

Any chance you’d argue against points people actually make?

I think people who argue for zero tolerance are advocating for zero tolerance for crimes other people commit. Simple as that

ToddyDoody

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Should Ireland become a zero tolerance state in relation to criminal offenses?

Guilty = Fine or Prison run on Maximum penilities

No ifs/buts or sob stories.

Revenue collects fines / Use tax to build prisons.

Sounds efficient. As though cases could be tried in 20 minutes flat.

Hotblack Desiato

Take a couple of hundred people off the streets and the national crime rate would plummet. There are people out there committing hundreds of serious crimes per year, getting convicted for a fraction of them and still getting slap on wrist sentences, large chunks of it suspended, etc. after racking up dozens or even hundreds of convictions. These guys don't give a damn and why should they?

Repeat offenders have been given plenty of chances by the system already, so take the kid gloves off. No bail if you have a record. No portion of your sentence to be suspended if you have been convicted of a similar offence before. NO concurrent sentencing for anyone - you serve once sentence at a time. Cut remission - half is far too much. You still need an incentive for crims to cooperate in prision, so still allow some remission but on electronic tag, curfew, cooperation with probation services and getting a JOB even if it's digging holes in the ground at state expense and filling them back in again.

We'll need to build a couple more prisons / remand centres, but it's totally worth it. NB this is for repeat offenders / career criminals only. There comes a point where rehabilitation is no longer possible and the need to protect the public should come first.

Odhinn

server down wrote: »

Is the solution to higher crime rates lower sentences then? And clearly Ireland is failing to rehabilitate as well, or rather the criminals are.

I don’t mind the idea that you rehabilitate or get a higher sentence since that’s a lot more realistic than a slap on the wrist after 160 convictions. Chance would be a fine thing.

That needs more prisons though.

The norwegian model - rehabilitate or get the stick. It works.

TheQuietFella

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Should Ireland become a zero tolerance state in relation to criminal offenses?

Guilty = Fine or Prison run on Maximum penilities

No ifs/buts or sob stories.

Revenue collects fines / Use tax to build prisons.

Couldn't afford it! Any revenue collected would be re-directed towards our foreign debt under instruction from our masters in Europe!

corner of hells

ToddyDoody wrote: »

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Should Ireland become a zero tolerance state in relation to criminal offenses?

Guilty = Fine or Prison run on Maximum penilities

No ifs/buts or sob stories.

Revenue collects fines / Use tax to build prisons.

Sounds efficient. As though cases could be tried in 20 minutes flat.

They could , in fact we could do mass trials.
Maybe even theme them , some days we could have Stalin ones , others could Roman style.

falinn merking

Zero tolerance is the way to go anybody try to squeeze out some sneaky flatulence should face the full wrath of the law.

server down

Odhinn wrote: »

The norwegian model - rehabilitate or get the stick. It works.

As I said, in Ireland that would mean more prisons.

djPSB

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Should Ireland become a zero tolerance state in relation to criminal offenses?

Guilty = Fine or Prison run on Maximum penilities

No ifs/buts or sob stories.

Revenue collects fines / Use tax to build prisons.

Death penalty and corporal punishment should be brought back. Give the paedos etc. what they deserve.

OnDraught

OnDraught wrote: »

We would end up with a tiny working population. Nobody to run our banks, drive taxis, say mass etc. The country would collapse.

Yeah, because the guys with 66 convictions work in the banks :rolleyes:

NollagShona

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Should Ireland become a zero tolerance state in relation to criminal offenses?

Guilty = Fine or Prison run on Maximum penilities

No ifs/buts or sob stories.

Revenue collects fines / Use tax to build prisons.

Lucinda, it didnt work before, it won't now. Renua your thinking.

Blazer

paedos - bullet
murderers - bullet
armed robbery- bullets to both kneecaps
hit and run- bullets to elbows
drink driving- car crushed
driving no tax or insurance -car crushed
gbh - gbh
theft- jail
blue collar crime - jail

anyone convicted of any crime to be rendered sterile so as not to propagate more scum

Donald Trump

Norwegian models FTW

There was a rumoured attempted pussy grabbing at that contest!

pitifulgod

pitifulgod wrote: »

The US has the most overpopulated prison system in the globe. Crime rates tend to be substantially higher than rest of Western World. So build a ridiculously expensive prison system, likely increase the crime rate...

Running a prison is a business plan in the US, a full prison is good for the GDP figures.
Put people into jail it's good for the economy.

Invent crimes if there are vacancies.

Blazer

Blazer wrote: »

paedos - bullet
murderers - bullet
armed robbery- bullets to both kneecaps
hit and run- bullets to elbows
drink driving- car crushed
driving no tax or insurance -car crushed
gbh - gbh
theft- jail
blue collar crime - jail

anyone convicted of any crime to be rendered sterile so as not to propagate more scum

what the hell is blue collar crime???
as for crushing cars, what a waste(unless it's a banger) confiscate & sell it

shaunr68

Blazer wrote: »

paedos - bullet
murderers - bullet
armed robbery- bullets to both kneecaps
hit and run- bullets to elbows
drink driving- car crushed
driving no tax or insurance -car crushed
gbh - gbh
theft- jail
blue collar crime - jail

anyone convicted of any crime to be rendered sterile so as not to propagate more scum

Sorry to interrupt you Mr Trump but may I remind you that you have an important meeting at Doonbeg in the morning to hand over some bribe money.

Donald Trump

shaunr68 wrote: »

Sorry to interrupt you Mr Trump but may I remind you that you have an important meeting at Doonbeg in the morning to hand over some bribe money.

Oi. That fucker is an impostor

It's really amusing in a way. That just because something has been tried/done by another culture, it can't ever be applied to here. The US is always raised to the pedestal of failed responses to crime (Capital punishment, harsher sentencing etc) in objection to any suggestion of harsher sentencing of criminals. I've raised the point that the US has a very different culture than Ireland... but all I seem to get back is that we're kinda similar.

Now, I'm not suggesting CP, because it's unrealistic to expect that form of punishment entering Europe. Not going to happen. So, no point ranting about it.

Harsher sentencing simply means longer terms of incarceration without any endgame in sight. Lock people up and forget about them. Which doesn't work because each prisoner costs so damn much. Simply locking people away for longer periods is not the answer. It's not a deterrent and costs far too much in any case.

I wonder... has there been any studies/research asking reformed/rehabilitated criminals what measures would be most effective?

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder... has there been any studies/research asking reformed/rehabilitated criminals what measures would be most effective?

As far as I know the research correlates education with reduced likelihood of recidivism. Some people can’t be reformed. Lots of people in prison have learning difficulties and mental health issues, impulse control and forward planning problems and bad eggs (all the things that increase the chances of committing crimes and being incarcerated in the first place) so they’re a problematic sample.

markodaly

How about we first stop granting bail to people with dozens of convictions? Most of the burglaries are committed by people out on bail. Harsher sentences for a start would make people think twice. Locking people up does work despite what the utopians would have you think.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

How about we first stop granting bail to people with dozens of convictions? Most of the burglaries are committed by people out on bail. Harsher sentences for a start would make people think twice. Locking people up does work despite what the utopians would have you think.

Locking up serial offenders works because they can't re-offend while inside, but in reality, that just hides the problem.

in the past, national service was a good way to keep the potential culprits occupied, they're unlikely to offend while on a 50km route march with full kit.

Decriminalising some of the milder drugs would remove an entire layer of gangland crime from the system.

Blazer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

what the hell is blue collar crime???
as for crushing cars, what a waste(unless it's a banger) confiscate & sell it

Meant white collar crime.
Also you know the beauracy involved with confiscated and selling cars and the level of corruption in this country? Crush em.

I’m also adding to the list assholes who bring trolleys to the 12 items or less kiosk.
And the sentence is to be hit hard across the back within each extra item.
And then with the trolley.

Blazer

Blazer wrote: »

Meant white collar crime.
Also you know the beauracy involved with confiscated and selling cars and the level of corruption in this country? Crush em.

I’m also adding to the list assholes who bring trolleys to the 12 items or less kiosk.
And the sentence is to be hit hard across the back within each extra item.
And then with the trolley.

The easy fix is for the store to add a surcharge of something like 50 cents per item over the 12, they'll soon stop that malarkey.

Gbear

PopePalpatine wrote: »

"Virtue signalling", but for the Right.

Virtue Signalling is not new and it has never been the sole province of the left.
Anyone who grew up in Catholic Ireland should be fully aware of the practice.
Conceitedness is as old as humanity.



I can't help but feel that we're well behind what we could acheive with our justice system.

Technology is such that it should be trivial to know precisely what people are doing at all times so there should be no issue with using such methods in probation to keep people from reoffending and also keep non-violent criminals out of prison.

I think about half of our prison population is made up of non-violent criminals.
Other than for sheer bloody-mindedness and archaic notions of vengeance, there's seldom any benefit to putting most of them in prison.

Drug offences should not be offences, as the world is slowly beginning to realise.
Crimes against the state, such as tax evasion and the likes, are born of a feudal notion about the relationship between state and citizenship.
Both they and other offences relating to the theft and destuction of property and wealth, should be entirely handled through financial restitution and community service, whether it's robbing a chocolate bar, a ferrari, embezzling a billion Euro or whatever.

Keeping people locked in a cage should be reserved for those who pose serious risk to their fellow citizens if allowed to be free and there should not be sentences given - there should be an ongoing assessement of threat that should indicate whether or not the person is allowed to reenter society.
If they're not deemed to be a threat anymore, then great, job done. If they are, there should be no arbitrary limit on how long they can be detained.

There's a very clear failing in our justice system in how we deal with serious and repeat crime but building and filling loads of jails won't solve the issue.

Someone who's committed dozens of crimes should be required to be tracked, can't leave the country, can't associate with certain people, must hold down a legitimate job and so on, and it should be incredibly easy to keep them to that regime. It needn't require massive man-power either. A first year computer science student could build a system to automate it, although no doubt the illiterate bureaucrats in charge would find a way to get conned out of hundreds of millions of Euro for a system that doesn't work.

splinter65

Odhinn wrote: »

It's not an idea, its a fact. All stick doesn't work. Thats why people refer to the scandanavian model - reform or tough sentence.

Ah but in Scandinavia the citizens pay a lot of taxes to facilitate things like reforming criminals (a very expensive option) .
Irish people don’t want to pay for the water that comes out of the taps so they’re unlikely to pay for rehabilitating serial burglars.

Peatys

pitifulgod wrote: »

The US has the most overpopulated prison system in the globe. Crime rates tend to be substantially higher than rest of Western World. So build a ridiculously expensive prison system, likely increase the crime rate...

It's not the prisons fault that country is in shíte.

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

Ah but in Scandinavia the citizens pay a lot of taxes to facilitate things like reforming criminals (a very expensive option) .
Irish people don’t want to pay for the water that comes out of the taps so they’re unlikely to pay for rehabilitating serial burglars.

I've heard it said that its easier to get blood from a stone than money for prison reform, which traps us in the usual cycle.

Blazer

Deleted User wrote: »

The easy fix is for the store to add a surcharge of something like 50 cents per item over the 12, they'll soon stop that malarkey.

where's the fun in that?

splinter65

Odhinn wrote: »

I've heard it said that its easier to get blood from a stone than money for prison reform, which traps us in the usual cycle.

Scandinavia is referenced as every thing that is superior to any equivalent here in these islands.
But Scandinavians accept that you cannot have superior public services (including rebooting citizens who break the law) without giving back to the government large chunks of your hard earned wages.
Will never happen here.