Can we pool our knowledge regarding TAX and crypto and make some kind of FAQ/sticky?

GreeBo

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

From revenue.ie:

Personal Exemption
The first €1,270 of your gain is exempt from CGT.

Sorry but Im not sure what point you are making here?

sunrainmooncl

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry but Im not sure what point you are making here?

You said I owe CGT on 60e profit?

nxbyveromdwjpg

Fakent.ie wrote: »

how is this person going to work out what he has to pay? https://gyazo.com/096490c8fea99327636faa02299c7aa5
84 pages of TRX transactions?

He'd use the export trade history function we can see in the top right, and then import it back into cointracking.info

Fakent.ie

Amirah Cold Cafe wrote: »

He'd use the export trade history function we can see in the top right, and then import it back into cointracking.info

yeh that doesn't have the euro value or usd value like some people are saying here AND it only goes back as far as 3 months.

Peregrinus

Fakent.ie wrote: »

yeh that doesn't have the euro value or usd value like some people are saying here AND it only goes back as far as 3 months.

Yes, he'll have to put the EUR value into the spreadsheet himself.

Hey, if you find the tax compliance associated with a particular investment transaction too bothersome, don't enter into the transaction. But the system kind of assumes that most taxpayer are rational creatures; that they don't buy assets without having some sense of the value of what they are paying for them, and they don't sell assets without having some sense of the value of what they are getting for them. It assumes, in short, that your investment decisions -both buying and selling - are driven by the perceived value of the subject of the investment, and therefore a tax compliance requirement that requires a value to be assigned to the asset is not asking taxpayers to do something that, as rational investors, they would not be doing anyway.

Peregrinus

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

Jaysus got told two different things again.

"You must do this even if no tax is due because of reliefs or losses."

What does this mean?

The same page says

"Form CG1 - if you do not usually submit annual tax returns" (this is me)
"Form 12 - if you are a PAYE worker" (this is also me)

The deal is this:

1. If you actually make a taxable gain, you have to report that you have made a gain, and pay the associated tax, pretty early on. If the gain is made beween 1 January and 30 November, then you pay by 15 December. For gains made between 1 December and 30 December, you pay by 15 April in the following year. Note that you don't have to lodge a full tax return at this point; just pay what you owe by way of CGT.

2. Strictly speaking, you don't have to make an income tax return at all, unless the Revenue ask you to. However if you have reported gains and paid CGT, they will ask you to. If you're a PAYE worker, odds are that they'll ask you to complete Form 12.

3. If for some reason they don't ask you to - and the most likely reason will be that you forgot, or were unaware of, your obligation to pay CGT, so they still don't know that you made any gains - then you are obliged to make a CGT return (but not an income tax retur) and you use form CGT 1.

4. But when you do this the Revenue will learn for the first time (a) that you made gains, and (b) that you defaulted on your payment obligation, and when they find this out they will probably ask for a full income tax return anyway. So you'll be back to Form 12.

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

I'm trying to give notice that I made about 60e profit in Dec 2017 (although now I haven't made any profit since the market has gone wallop)

Just to be clear; you didn't make chargeable gains of 60e in December if all you did was hold crypto which appreciated in value by 60e. No matter how much your crypto appreciates in value, you don't make any chargeable gains until you actually dispose of the crypto, and get the value of them (either in cash or in the form of another crypto or other assets) in return.

If you disposed of your crypto in December and got a 60e gain, good for you. But in that case the reason you made no gains since is not because the market has gone wallop; it's because you're not holding crypto or, if you only sold some of your crypto in December and still have the rest, because you haven't disposed of the crypto you are left with.

Market movements do not in themselves give rise to any gains or losses. Only disposals do.

You'll have a loss when you dispose of your remaning crypto if, and only if, you dispose of it for less than you acquired it for. Disposing of it for less than the price it would have commanded in December, had you disposed of it then, is not a loss.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

3. If for some reason they don't ask you to - and the most likely reason will be that you forgot, or were unaware of, your obligation to pay CGT, so they still don't know that you made any gains - then you are obliged to make a CGT return (but not an income tax retur) and you use form CGT 1.

4. But when you do this the Revenue will learn for the first time (a) that you made gains, and (b) that you defaulted on your payment obligation, and when they find this out they will probably ask for a full income tax return anyway. So you'll be back to Form 12.

These points don't make any sense. revenues website clearly states that that CGT1 form is a perfectly legitimate way of making a CGT return yet you are associating it with someone who is defaulting on their CGT. Someone who otherwise makes no tax return and submits the CGT1 form on time is doing things completely by the book and I see no reason why you are alluding that it's only there for making late returns which will then lead to a form 12 being requested. That would make the CGT1 form pointless.

If a person doesn't normally make a tax return (which is the majority of PAYE workers) then I see no basis for your assumption that using the CGT1 form will inmediately lead to revenue requesting a form 12, there is no real reason why a person would not be allowed to continue to use the CGT1 form for making their CGT returns once everything is being done above board.

On the other thread you were talking about form 11 for PAYE workers which makes even less sense. Im no expert and I don't pretend to be but imo you are trying to give the impression that you know more than you actually do and stating things as facts that may not be.

ZeroThreat

Angel Dead Apartment wrote: »

These points don't make any sense. revenues website clearly states that that CGT1 form is a perfectly legitimate way of making a CGT return yet you are associating it with someone who is defaulting on their CGT. Someone who otherwise makes no tax return and submits the CGT1 form on time is doing things completely by the book and I see no reason why you are alluding that it's only there for making late returns which will then lead to a form 12 being requested. That would make the CGT1 form pointless.

If a person doesn't normally make a tax return (which is the majorly it PAYE workers) then I see no basis for your assumption that using the CGT1 form will inmedialty lead to revenue requesting a form 12, there is no real reason why a person would not be allowed to continue to use the CGT1 form for making their CGT returns once everything is being done above board.

On the other thread you were talking about form 11 for PAYE workers which makes even less sense. Im no expert and I don't pretend to be but imo you are trying to give the impression that you know more than you actually do and stating things as facts that may not be.

yup, someone also incorrectly stated the other day that the deadline for payment of tax on capital disposals in the later period (1-31 Dec '17) was mid April 2018, but it's actually 31st January 2018.

Probably best you ask an accountant in person, not some keyboard warriors which boards.ie are flush with.

Interestingly, its obvious that the people here giving the most 'advice' and constantly insinuating those asking questions are trying to evade taxes don't seem to have any personal experience of buying from an exchange or trading cryptocurrencies themselves. (from what I've seen here)


If you ever peruse the other forums on boards.ie, anything relating to rental issues also tends to be full of various 'experts' all with conflicting advice claiming to be correct.

The crypto forum is fine for investing tips or light discussion, anything legal or tax related forget it. Why rely on the advice of people with anonymous monikers?

GreeBo

ZeroThreat wrote: »

Interestingly, its obvious that the people here giving the most 'advice' and constantly insinuating those asking questions are trying to evade taxes don't seem to have any personal experience of buying from an exchange or trading cryptocurrencies themselves. (from what I've seen here)

LOL.

The Oort Cloud

The Oort Cloud wrote: »

Panama.

sublime1 wrote: »

This is exactly the low-effort kind of contribution I was trying to avoid in this discussion.

Another suggestion that someone pointed out to me is the idea of doing trades through a company structure. Seeing the low rates of corporate tax, this could be worth looking into. Has anyone any thoughts?

As a general rule, personal assets should not be held in limited companies as 12.5% rates of CT won't apply. However, if you are deemed to be trading (as in tax sense not the investor sense) then limited companies can be much more tax effective.

The same tax rules won't apply for everyone on this thread because some investors would be more active than others so the income is treated differently.

machiavellianme

I took the liberty of contacting revenue due to the constant speculation on here.
Please see below:

Questions:

1. Are cryptocurrency trades subject to tax (or is it considered gambling)?

2. If taxable, is Capital Gains Tax the correct category? I'm not a professional trader.

3. Is the tax calculated at each trade or only when converted back to official currencies like Euro or Dollars etc. i.e. if I swap litecoin for bitcoin, does that count as profit as there is no real profits until the coins are sold to euro?



Responses:

1. & 2. Profits on cryptocurrency trades are subject to Capital Gains Tax

3. The tax due should be calculated when converted to official currencies.

Fakent.ie

machiavellianme wrote: »

I took the liberty of contacting revenue due to the constant speculation on here.
Please see below:

Questions:

1. Are cryptocurrency trades subject to tax (or is it considered gambling)?

2. If taxable, is Capital Gains Tax the correct category? I'm not a professional trader.

3. Is the tax calculated at each trade or only when converted back to official currencies like Euro or Dollars etc. i.e. if I swap litecoin for bitcoin, does that count as profit as there is no real profits until the coins are sold to euro?



Responses:

1. & 2. Profits on cryptocurrency trades are subject to Capital Gains Tax

3. The tax due should be calculated when converted to official currencies.

Good man i kenw that the crypto/crypto stuff seemed to stupid to be true

lifeandtimes

machiavellianme wrote: »

I took the liberty of contacting revenue due to the constant speculation on here.
Please see below:

Questions:

1. Are cryptocurrency trades subject to tax (or is it considered gambling)?

2. If taxable, is Capital Gains Tax the correct category? I'm not a professional trader.

3. Is the tax calculated at each trade or only when converted back to official currencies like Euro or Dollars etc. i.e. if I swap litecoin for bitcoin, does that count as profit as there is no real profits until the coins are sold to euro?



Responses:

1. & 2. Profits on cryptocurrency trades are subject to Capital Gains Tax

3. The tax due should be calculated when converted to official currencies.

Excellent stuff there fella.

I knew that bollox about every exchange and trade youve made needed to be calculated an accounted for was too stupid

nxbyveromdwjpg

Fakent.ie wrote: »

yeh that doesn't have the euro value or usd value like some people are saying here AND it only goes back as far as 3 months.

Yes it does have fiat value and it goes back as far as you want it to.

Fakent.ie

Amirah Cold Cafe wrote: »

Yes it does have fiat value and it goes back as far as you want it to.

Ye sorry I assumed when it said MAX range 3 months it only showed the last 3 months not a specific date range.

but not all exchanges have a fiat value

barneystinson

machiavellianme wrote: »

I took the liberty of contacting revenue due to the constant speculation on here.
Please see below:

Questions:

1. Are cryptocurrency trades subject to tax (or is it considered gambling)?

2. If taxable, is Capital Gains Tax the correct category? I'm not a professional trader.

3. Is the tax calculated at each trade or only when converted back to official currencies like Euro or Dollars etc. i.e. if I swap litecoin for bitcoin, does that count as profit as there is no real profits until the coins are sold to euro?



Responses:

1. & 2. Profits on cryptocurrency trades are subject to Capital Gains Tax

3. The tax due should be calculated when converted to official currencies.

Out of interest, what revenue office did that reply come from? Was it an email exchange through the My enquiries system or was it written correspondence?

machiavellianme

barneystinson wrote: »

Out of interest, what revenue office did that reply come from? Was it an email exchange through the My enquiries system or was it written correspondence?

I used the my enquiries system

Zascar

machiavellianme wrote: »

I took the liberty of contacting revenue due to the constant speculation on here.
Please see below:

Questions:

1. Are cryptocurrency trades subject to tax (or is it considered gambling)?

2. If taxable, is Capital Gains Tax the correct category? I'm not a professional trader.

3. Is the tax calculated at each trade or only when converted back to official currencies like Euro or Dollars etc. i.e. if I swap litecoin for bitcoin, does that count as profit as there is no real profits until the coins are sold to euro?



Responses:

1. & 2. Profits on cryptocurrency trades are subject to Capital Gains Tax

3. The tax due should be calculated when converted to official currencies.

Well done and thanks. One more question: What if you moved country - but you had not sold anything (to fiat) - but cashed out in a new country that had zero tax. Are they going to come chasing you?

relax carry on

machiavellianme wrote: »

I used the my enquiries system

Could you post the content of the enquiry word for word without identifying yourself if possible? Your original query and the answer received. Thanks.

Also how long did it take for you to get an answer?

barneystinson

machiavellianme wrote: »

I used the my enquiries system

And what office replied to you?

lifeandtimes

Zascar wrote: »

Well done and thanks. One more question: What if you moved country - but you had not sold anything (to fiat) - but cashed out in a new country that had zero tax. Are they going to come chasing you?

I'd be under the impression anywhere you made the gains i.e. in Ireland through irish internet etc you'd owe the money here.

Now if you never came back I doubt they'd chase you and even if you did you'd need to be brought to their attention is say

machiavellianme

barneystinson wrote: »

And what office replied to you?

It doesn't say. Just a persons name (inspector for taxes) and I've no intention of naming them on here as it results in an infraction.
I don't see why you are so concerned?

machiavellianme

relax carry on wrote: »

Could you post the content of the enquiry word for word without identifying yourself if possible? Your original query and the answer received. Thanks.

Also how long did it take for you to get an answer?

It took 18 days to get an answer.
I've posted what I can because there were other elements of my query which related to other matters that I'd rather keep private. However, the above is word for word on those aspects.

barneystinson

machiavellianme wrote: »

It doesn't say. Just a persons name (inspector for taxes) and I've no intention of naming them on here as it results in an infraction.
I don't see why you are so concerned?

It seems they've issued an incorrect answer, so that would concern me. Hence I'd like to know where it issued from. PM me the name of the inspector it issued in if you don't want to post it on the thread..?

lifeandtimes

machiavellianme wrote: »

It took 18 days to get an answer.
I've posted what I can because there were other elements of my query which related to other matters that I'd rather keep private. However, the above is word for word on those aspects.

People will always be suspicious mate especially when it comes to their money.

Appreciate the effort dude

lifeandtimes

barneystinson wrote: »

It seems they've issued an incorrect answer, so that would concern me. Hence I'd like to know where it issued from. PM me the name of the inspector it issued in if you don't want to post it on the thread..?

It seems?

Do you work there if so why have you had issues through out this whole thread?

Snitch

Fakent.ie

barneystinson wrote: »

It seems they've issued an incorrect answer, so that would concern me. Hence I'd like to know where it issued from. PM me the name of the inspector it issued in if you don't want to post it on the thread..?

Whats the incorrect part of what he said?

machiavellianme

What I've learned from the response is that Revenue are quite good to deal with and very helpful. It may not be the fastest correspondence but given the time of year etc I'm impressed.

Would it be worth us jointly coming up with a list of questions and posing them to Revenue? We could then definitively answer a lot of the periphery questions like forks, mining, airdrops etc.

.G.

Fakent.ie wrote:

Whats the incorrect part of what he said?

The part about only calculating tax when converting to fiat currency flies in the face of the opinions of our boards experts so I'd imagine that's the part he has the issue with.

Since it's come from an inspector of taxes then they can hardly haul the lad who asked over the coals some time down the line even if it's wrong.

Fakent.ie

superg wrote: »

The part about only calculating tax when converting to fiat currency flies in the face of the opinions of our boards experts so I'd imagine that's the part he has the issue with.

Since it's come from an inspector of taxes then they can hardly haul the lad who asked over the coals some time down the line even if it's wrong.

Ye id say he worked out all his tx's and now hes sick to death after hearing he didnt have to ahha