Alternative route into second level teaching?

FA NG

I wanted to become a second level art teacher, I studied visual arts for 4 years but the year I graduated was the year the hdip changed to pme and it was not affordable for me anymore. I decided to do the hdip in further ed to get a teaching diploma and I got loads of art teaching experience on this course in ETB's, youthreach, special education and level 5 courses. Before this course I had about 6 years art and craft teaching experience by volunteering in local education centres and non mainstream schools.
I still want the option to be able to teach in second level but tbh i'm not interested in the PME course at all, besides the extortionate cost second level teachers are taught banking style teaching while I take a much more holistic approach to students. The course subjects dont interest me and theyre all the same as what I studied in my hdip.
I discovered a masters course in CIT in Art education. Its not a PME but it covers curriculum, special education, adolescent education, education policy and art therapy which im very interested in studying. Masters for art therapy costs a bomb but this education course covers it and its only one year part time.

Question is with the fine art degree, HDIP in further ed, years of experience and a masters in art education (not a pme but which covers second level curriculum) Could I possibly get a job at second level or are the rules that strict?

r93kaey5p2izun

There are no shortcuts. The PME is the qualification required. Whether you are interested in it or believe your qualification to be superior is irrelevant.

Your understanding of the methodologies promoted during the PME is also completely wrong.

judeboy101

Einstein wouldn't be qualified to teach physics or maths in Ireland, according to the TC criteria, so you are out of luck without a PME.

Sesame

I'd like to teach maths and coding/IT in second level. But like you, despite working in multiple tech jobs and having BSc in those areas, I'm pretty sure I'd need to do the very long teaching course to do it. Is it 2 years?

There's been a call out recently for tech teachers, but I can't see many leaving industry for a 2 year full time course with no income prior to getting a job.

Like Einstein, we may know the content inside out, but we don't necessarily know how to teach.

More flexibility, like night course options with part time on the job training, (to enable us to work our real jobs around it), would encourage more entrants. We would also have something to offer students by providing real world examples with solutions rather than solely theoretical learnt examples.

My knowledge is limited so maybe someone else could tell us what exactly is involved, but when I heard I would need to exit industry to go back to college for 2 years, I dropped the idea. It's just not feasible.

TheDriver

Just be warned that art teachers are ten a penny. Art teachers tend to only teach art which is max 1 per school. Very little changeover in art teachers. Most art teachers I know just sub for every subject year after year

mtoutlemonde

FA NG wrote: »

I wanted to become a second level art teacher, I studied visual arts for 4 years but the year I graduated was the year the hdip changed to pme and it was not affordable for me anymore. I decided to do the hdip in further ed to get a teaching diploma and I got loads of art teaching experience on this course in ETB's, youthreach, special education and level 5 courses. Before this course I had about 6 years art and craft teaching experience by volunteering in local education centres and non mainstream schools.
I still want the option to be able to teach in second level but tbh i'm not interested in the PME course at all, besides the extortionate cost second level teachers are taught banking style teaching while I take a much more holistic approach to students. The course subjects dont interest me and theyre all the same as what I studied in my hdip.
I discovered a masters course in CIT in Art education. Its not a PME but it covers curriculum, special education, adolescent education, education policy and art therapy which im very interested in studying. Masters for art therapy costs a bomb but this education course covers it and its only one year part time.

Question is with the fine art degree, HDIP in further ed, years of experience and a masters in art education (not a pme but which covers second level curriculum) Could I possibly get a job at second level or are the rules that strict?

Other posters have answered your queries, but you have now said the underlined part in two threads now re banking style teaching - could you explain that one to me??

FA NG

Xzavier Nice Hatchback wrote: »

There are no shortcuts. The PME is the qualification required. Whether you are interested in it or believe your qualification to be superior is irrelevant.

Your understanding of the methodologies promoted during the PME is also completely wrong.

Ive never suggested my qualifications were 'superior'

Thank you everyone else who replied. Im qualified to teach though. Im qualified to teach in youthreach, ETB's with teenagers and adults, special needs teens and adults I am qualified to teach in QQI colleges like Institutes of Further education. My course covered different styles of teaching and methodologies and I got nearly 200 hours teaching practice on work experience with regular supervised visits. I would be qualified to teach leaving cert art in an ETB to adults/teenagers and early school leavers but can't teach in a secondary school while secondary teachers are allowed to teach in the FE sector.. it doesnt really make any sense.

Ive been told by past students that the PME is just a drawn out Hdip with added essays and work experience. That being said my Hdip could easily have been spread over two years as it was so intensive.

FA NG

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Other posters have answered your queries, but you have now said the underlined part in two threads now re banking style teaching - could you explain that one to me??

Banking style teaching is "the talking teacher and listening student". Its basically the idea that the teacher fills the students with knowledge (from a book) and discourages active participation from students within a class.

Its also the idea that learners are subordinate to the teacher and must only do what the teacher permits ie. Putting up your hand to ask the teacher can you have a drink of water.. that would be an indication there is an extreme banking style system within the class.

mtoutlemonde

FA NG wrote: »

Ive never suggested my qualifications were 'superior'

Thank you everyone else who replied. Im qualified to teach though. Im qualified to teach in youthreach, ETB's with teenagers and adults, special needs teens and adults I am qualified to teach in QQI colleges like Institutes of Further education. My course covered different styles of teaching and methodologies and I got nearly 200 hours teaching practice on work experience with regular supervised visits. I would be qualified to teach leaving cert art in an ETB to adults/teenagers and early school leavers but can't teach in a secondary school while secondary teachers are allowed to teach in the FE sector.. it doesnt really make any sense.

Ive been told by past students that the PME is just a drawn out Hdip with added essays and work experience. That being said my Hdip could easily have been spread over two years as it was so intensive.

You're giving that impression though. It 'may' be possible that you don't need to do the full dip as you have a further ed dip, contact the Teaching Council and they will assess your qualifications. If it turns out that you do need a full dip - I wouldn't bother as art teaching vacancies are rare.

r93kaey5p2izun

FA NG wrote: »

Ive never suggested my qualifications were 'superior'

Thank you everyone else who replied. Im qualified to teach though. Im qualified to teach in youthreach, ETB's with teenagers and adults, special needs teens and adults I am qualified to teach in QQI colleges like Institutes of Further education. My course covered different styles of teaching and methodologies and I got nearly 200 hours teaching practice on work experience with regular supervised visits. I would be qualified to teach leaving cert art in an ETB to adults/teenagers and early school leavers but can't teach in a secondary school while secondary teachers are allowed to teach in the FE sector.. it doesnt really make any sense.

Ive been told by past students that the PME is just a drawn out Hdip with added essays and work experience. That being said my Hdip could easily have been spread over two years as it was so intensive.

Your assertion that you, using your current qualifications, take a holistic approach to teaching but qualified second level teachers use what you call a "banking" style comes across as you believing your qualification is superior.

But as I said, you are wrong as to what style of teaching is promoted in second level teaching courses.

mtoutlemonde

FA NG wrote: »

Banking style teaching is "the talking teacher and listening student". Its basically the idea that the teacher fills the students with knowledge (from a book) and discourages active participation from students within a class.

Its also the idea that learners are subordinate to the teacher and must only do what the teacher permits ie. Putting up your hand to ask the teacher can you have a drink of water.. that would be an indication there is an extreme banking style system within the class.

That's 'chalk and talk' in my language so. It is a very effective way of teaching and is proven. I think there is active participation in each subject area and we do it everyday with our students by means of questioning, reading, listening small amounts of group work/pair and share etc.

At the end of the day, the teacher is the king/queen of their own classroom. The majority of times, they are the only adult in the class and are accountable for the actions of their students. Putting your hand up is a bit extreme for water but I insist on hands up before you speak/ask to go to toilet etc. As it is respectful of all parties in the classroom. You can't have a classroom where students are free to do what they like, the teacher has to have control and respect of the classes they teach.

Avatar MIA

FA NG wrote: »

Im qualified to teach though. Im qualified to teach in youthreach, ETB's with teenagers and adults, special needs teens and adults I am qualified to teach in QQI colleges like Institutes of Further education. My course covered different styles of teaching and methodologies and I got nearly 200 hours teaching practice on work experience with regular supervised visits. I would be qualified to teach leaving cert art in an ETB to adults/teenagers and early school leavers but can't teach in a secondary school while secondary teachers are allowed to teach in the FE sector.. it doesnt really make any sense.

At the very least you need to understand that teaching adults is very different to teaching a 13 year old child.

Tom Dunne

FA NG wrote: »

That being said my Hdip could easily have been spread over two years as it was so intensive.

Programme duration is no indication of level. The HDip is Level 8 on the QQI framework and is a qualification to enable you to teach adults.

The PME is Level 9 on the QQI framework and is geared towards teaching children.

So you are qualified to teach adults, not children. Important difference.

FA NG

Avatar MIA wrote: »

At the very least you need to understand that teaching adults is very different to teaching a 13 year old child.

I understand this completely but my diploma doesn't just qualify me to teach adults, I can teach teenagers in youthreach so why not secondary?

Avatar MIA

FA NG wrote: »

I understand this completely but my diploma doesn't just qualify me to teach adults, I can teach teenagers in youthreach so why not secondary?

Is it the same curriculum? The PME is to teach the Department of Education's curriculum to children.

mtoutlemonde

FA NG wrote: »

I understand this completely but my diploma doesn't just qualify me to teach adults, I can teach teenagers in youthreach so why not secondary?

Because Youthreach is generally for Travellers where they all come from the same backgrounds etc. Teaching in a secondary school, you deal with all kinds of student and how to deal with this. You have to be able to deal with high achieving kids to kids that will be lucky to get a pass. Teaching in Youthreach will mostly be LCA and Junior Cycle.

FA NG

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

That's 'chalk and talk' in my language so. It is a very effective way of teaching and is proven. I think there is active participation in each subject area and we do it everyday with our students by means of questioning, reading, listening small amounts of group work/pair and share etc.

At the end of the day, the teacher is the king/queen of their own classroom. The majority of times, they are the only adult in the class and are accountable for the actions of their students. Putting your hand up is a bit extreme for water but I insist on hands up before you speak/ask to go to toilet etc. As it is respectful of all parties in the classroom. You can't have a classroom where students are free to do what they like, the teacher has to have control and respect of the classes they teach.

I wouldnt think of myself as 'queen' of a classroom at all. The classroom is as much the learners space as it is mine, i'm there for the students after all. I agree that an amount of chalk and talk is mandatory particularly depending on the subject but I dont think it's entirely learner inclusive. Some teachers dont bother to include other methodologies so some students can fall behind. Ive a friend who completed her PME and she was taught to not engage in discussion with students about anything outside of the curriculum - this to me is madness. She was also taught group work ect but mostly a banking style approach and an idea that she owns the classroom and the students are in her space and must respect that.
From working in youthreach and other non traditional classrooms - with teenagers who often come from all sorts of backgrounds and have a multitude of behaviour problems, by taking a learner centred approach iv'e found it hugely effective and the students enjoy the class, they don't feel pressured or disrespected. If something gets out of hand or students start acting up, ill then put on my boss hat and that creates the boundaries needed.
I don't like the terms control and respect when talking about learners, theyre people and should be treated as such. I just think the attitude overall discourages any creative or critical thinking in learners. I know from working with students straight from secondary school, they almost need to be spoon fed, theyve acquired no self direction or independence, theyve only been taught to be submissive/obey rules/accept disrespect.

FA NG

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Because Youthreach is generally for Travellers where they all come from the same backgrounds etc. Teaching in a secondary school, you deal with all kinds of student and how to deal with this. You have to be able to deal with high achieving kids to kids that will be lucky to get a pass. Teaching in Youthreach will mostly be LCA and Junior Cycle.

Youthreach isn't generally for travellers?? where did you come up with that one??

ascophyllum

FA NG wrote: »

tbh i'm not interested in the PME course at all, besides the extortionate cost second level teachers are taught banking style teaching while I take a much more holistic approach to students. The course subjects dont interest me and theyre all the same as what I studied in my hdip.

Knowledge of the subject and experience is only half of the skills/resources needed to teach at second level.
Being able to teach using differing methodologies to suit different learners, differentiate within the classroom, adapt teaching styles for students with SENs, plan on a weekly and yearly scale according to senior cycle and (new) junior cycle specifications, assess CONSTANTLY formatively and summatively and manage behaviours of up to 30 students all at once, many of whom may not want to be there while still setting and assessing learning outcomes is the other half.
The PME addresses the latter rather than the former, it certainly doesn't prescribe or train people in a 'banking style' teaching methodology, at least not in the last 15 years. Students emerging from the PME in recent years are generally very well equipped for the modern classroom.

The fact that its quite expensive and 2 years...I agree its very offputting, especially for the subjects in very high demand for teachers at the moment such as Physics, Chemistry, Maths, Modern Languages. Unfortunately, Art is not a subject that is short of teachers, it would be hard to secure any work beyond subbing.

mtoutlemonde

FA NG wrote: »

I wouldnt think of myself as 'queen' of a classroom at all. The classroom is as much the learners space as it is mine, i'm there for the students after all. I agree that an amount of chalk and talk is mandatory particularly depending on the subject but I dont think it's entirely learner inclusive. Some teachers dont bother to include other methodologies so some students can fall behind. Ive a friend who completed her PME and she was taught to not engage in discussion with students about anything outside of the curriculum - this to me is madness. She was also taught group work ect but mostly a banking style approach and an idea that she owns the classroom and the students are in her space and must respect that.
From working in youthreach and other non traditional classrooms - with teenagers who often come from all sorts of backgrounds and have a multitude of behaviour problems, by taking a learner centred approach iv'e found it hugely effective and the students enjoy the class, they don't feel pressured or disrespected. If something gets out of hand or students start acting up, ill then put on my boss hat and that creates the boundaries needed.
I don't like the terms control and respect when talking about learners, theyre people and should be treated as such. I just think the attitude overall discourages any creative or critical thinking in learners. I know from working with students straight from secondary school, they almost need to be spoon fed, theyve acquired no self direction or independence, theyve only been taught to be submissive/obey rules/accept disrespect.

You have to teach for ALL students so there has to be control in the classroom so your approach wouldn't work as you would have the confident learners answering all of the time or on the end, the trouble makers ruling the classroom leaving the quite/unconfident learner behind.

Unless you're a school inspector, you can't say that some teachers don't use other methodologies without backing it up. Teachers use what works for them and get the desired results every year. So why change a system that isn't broken? Again, some students prefer to interact only with the teacher and not their peers/some end up doing all of the work. I have tried it, it all depends on the students you in front of you. I have also experienced it in university with some people in teams not pulling their weight but able to take praise.

If you want to discuss something outside of the curriculum - perfect - see me after the bell or when school closes and I'll be delighted to discuss it with you. You may not be aware but teachers have a curriculum to deliver and have tight deadlines as other school activities can cut into delivery i.e. sports/concerts etc. And if it isn't delivered, you have to be able to explain yourself to the principal/parents/depth of education. Don't be taking everything your friend says as gospel - they are one person. Yes the teacher IS the king/queen of the classroom - they instill an atmosphere of respect into their classrooms where EVERY student has the same rights. It also shows them how you act in the real world e.g. they won't speak over their employer when they speak or colleagues - everyone has opinion and should be heard in time - not everyone speaking at the same time - the holistic side of teaching - not just subject knowledge - how to deal with people in public.

Will you stop it with the 'banking style' teaching - I've told you what it is and it sound silly where we all instill an element of lies and scheming into our students.

I have answered most of your last points above except for the last one - regarding spoon feeding - yes that happened in the past and the department are trying to change that but making an awful mess of it. Students still expect you do to do all the work for them. Teachers give students the tools, students have to use them.

mtoutlemonde

FA NG wrote: »

Youthreach isn't generally for travellers?? where did you come up with that one??

From my experience, travellers are in the majority in Youthreach centres. There may be students where school wasn't for them and they are sent to Youthreach.

davyboy1975

Might help to learn how to spell route to start with :-p

That was just a ploy to see if you were paying attention down the back davyboy1975. :pac:
Anyhow enough of the grammar correction. Tis agin the charter.
Mod

FA NG

davyboy1975 wrote: »

Might help to learn how to spell route to start with :-p

I posted from my phone and couldn't edit the title.

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

From my experience, travellers are in the majority in Youthreach centres. There may be students where school wasn't for them and they are sent to Youthreach.

Theyre not the majority. Secondary ed excludes a large number of learners who arent considered 'good students' leaving them with no option but to drop out and attend youthreach or other alternative education environments. If the current secondary education teaching style was as effective as you claim, we wouldnt have such a large number of drop outs and underachievers. Secondary ed as it stands is letting down kids from low socio ecoonomic backgrounds, kids that come from broken homes and unstable environments. In my experience a large number of high achievers are that way because of the family and background they come from, they make a teachers job easy. The 'difficult learners' are pushed out and excluded, which is wrong. They then go to youthreach after being told theyll amount to nothing their whole lives with a serious grudge against teachers and learning because of awful school experiences.
I have tremendous respect for any student that climbs out of that hole and gives alternative education a shot. Thats hardly an easy thing to do.

mtoutlemonde

FA NG wrote: »

I posted from my phone and couldn't edit the title.



Theyre not the majority. Secondary ed excludes a large number of learners who arent considered 'good students' leaving them with no option but to drop out and attend youthreach or other alternative education environments. If the current secondary education teaching style was as effective as you claim, we wouldnt have such a large number of drop outs and underachievers. Secondary ed as it stands is letting down kids from low socio ecoonomic backgrounds, kids that come from broken homes and unstable environments. In my experience a large number of high achievers are that way because of the family and background they come from, they make a teachers job easy. The 'difficult learners' are pushed out and excluded, which is wrong. They then go to youthreach after being told theyll amount to nothing their whole lives with a serious grudge against teachers and learning because of awful school experiences.
I have tremendous respect for any student that climbs out of that hole and gives alternative education a shot. Thats hardly an easy thing to do.

That's what I said about learners where school wasn't a place for them. I think you need to do some research on what is available to students nowadays. There is more special needs catered for today than I ever experienced in my school days. Leaving Certificate Applied was introduced to keep learners in school. Could you give us the number of dropouts and underachievers you claim? School life has changed and the majority of students now leave with a Leaving Certificate as it is frowned upon to leave before/after Junior Cert. Yes some areas struggle to keep kids in schools but that not is the fault of secondary school education. Also some kids just can't be educated.

There is a tradition that education doesn't matter in the in Travellers families especially girls who cease their education very young. The only reason why Youthreach is used by all is the money incentive.

You're living in the clouds of you think every student in secondary school is from a 'good' family and no problems and teachers just care about them. I have had all kinds of students and have been fair and treated every student the same with a few words of encouragement for students with extra problems if appropriate but on the whole these students like to be treated the same as everyone else as sometimes schools can be an outlet from their home situations and we as teachers show them that educations is key to their success.

FA NG

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

That's what I said about learners where school wasn't a place for them. I think you need to do some research on what is available to students nowadays. There is more special needs catered for today than I ever experienced in my school days. Leaving Certificate Applied was introduced to keep learners in school. Could you give us the number of dropouts and underachievers you claim? School life has changed and the majority of students now leave with a Leaving Certificate as it is frowned upon to leave before/after Junior Cert. Yes some areas struggle to keep kids in schools but that not is the fault of secondary school education. Also some kids just can't be educated.

There is a tradition that education doesn't matter in the in Travellers families especially girls who cease their education very young. The only reason why Youthreach is used by all is the money incentive.

You're living in the clouds of you think every student in secondary school is from a 'good' family and no problems and teachers just care about them. I have had all kinds of students and have been fair and treated every student the same with a few words of encouragement for students with extra problems if appropriate but on the whole these students like to be treated the same as everyone else as sometimes schools can be an outlet from their home situations and we as teachers show them that educations is key to their success.

I don't agree that some kids cant be educated. Thats not true at all, some might have different interests, abilities have refusal to engage or maybe find it hard to learn in the traditional sense but to say they cant be educated is untrue. I also didnt say that every student in secondary is from a good family. You might want to reread the post, it seems you either misread or misunderstood it.
LCA is an option for sure but it's labelled and stigmatised as youthreach is. Also the lack of education within the travelling community and it's young members is slowly beginning to change, we're seeing more girls from traveller families attend further ed and third level than ever before - more still needs to be done in this regard and hopefully we'll see more developed services with the aim of inclusion of marginalised groups. Although as the second education system goes it could be readjusted to incorporate programmes which encourage inclusion by creating a culture among students and teachers which accepts the travelling community and an understanding that their customs are different from our own. I dont think the TC should be expected to change their culture to fit in with ours when we cant even introduce educational programmes in schools to suit their specific needs. Im very aware of the available services but theyre not good enough and thats not the fault of teachers but rather the school system as it is.
I dont know the numbers of drop outs but I do work with students who dropped out and were let down by mainstream ed. They all come with similar stories and negative connotations associated with secondary school, learning, education and teachers and I guarantee if even half of them had been listened to, understood, respected and treated as individuals with specific needs rather than disobedient children, being spoken down to and expected to show respect they wouldnt have become so worn down that theyd given up on the education system almost entirely. Ive no doubt in my mind they would have stuck school out and achieved a leaving cert had their needs been met. They come into alt education full of anger and insecurities that stems directly from school experience.
I just think a more learner centred approach not only caters for high achievers it prevents low achievers from falling through the cracks and discourages the idea they should be measured by a system built for 'good students'. Instead it takes each learner as an individual and thats important because everyone has the same right to education.

evolving_doors

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Programme duration is no indication of level. The HDip is Level 8 on the QQI framework and is a qualification to enable you to teach adults.

The PME is Level 9 on the QQI framework and is geared towards teaching children.

So you are qualified to teach adults, not children. Important difference.

I dunno , I think most of us from the non-PME route did just fine without the 2 years!

Here's a mad idea...a 1 year diploma and put in a special incentive for teachers to return to a 'proper' masters when they have experience and cause to specialise. Plus do a proper thesis with the ability to undertake meaningful research.

The 2 years is putting a lot of entrants off. Schools are at a knife edge in terms of recruitment.
Just look at the number of potential candidates who decided against in recent threads.

mtoutlemonde

FA NG wrote: »

I don't agree that some kids cant be educated. Thats not true at all, some might have different interests, abilities have refusal to engage or maybe find it hard to learn in the traditional sense but to say they cant be educated is untrue. I also didnt say that every student in secondary is from a good family. You might want to reread the post, it seems you either misread or misunderstood it.
LCA is an option for sure but it's labelled and stigmatised as youthreach is. Also the lack of education within the travelling community and it's young members is slowly beginning to change, we're seeing more girls from traveller families attend further ed and third level than ever before - more still needs to be done in this regard and hopefully we'll see more developed services with the aim of inclusion of marginalised groups. Although as the second education system goes it could be readjusted to incorporate programmes which encourage inclusion by creating a culture among students and teachers which accepts the travelling community and an understanding that their customs are different from our own. I dont think the TC should be expected to change their culture to fit in with ours when we cant even introduce educational programmes in schools to suit their specific needs. Im very aware of the available services but theyre not good enough and thats not the fault of teachers but rather the school system as it is.
I dont know the numbers of drop outs but I do work with students who dropped out and were let down by mainstream ed. They all come with similar stories and negative connotations associated with secondary school, learning, education and teachers and I guarantee if even half of them had been listened to, understood, respected and treated as individuals with specific needs rather than disobedient children, being spoken down to and expected to show respect they wouldnt have become so worn down that theyd given up on the education system almost entirely. Ive no doubt in my mind they would have stuck school out and achieved a leaving cert had their needs been met. They come into alt education full of anger and insecurities that stems directly from school experience.
I just think a more learner centred approach not only caters for high achievers it prevents low achievers from falling through the cracks and discourages the idea they should be measured by a system built for 'good students'. Instead it takes each learner as an individual and thats important because everyone has the same right to education.

Now just be aware I'm not generating here but I too worked in adult education and on my first day I was told that I would be able to identify the students who were forced to be there because of social welfare and the ones who really wanted to be there and it was very obvious and that was day one!! These people were from traveller backgrounds and didn't engage in any of the material they were asked to do. It's great if things are changing with regards to people from traveller backgrounds but they also have to prepared to change as the majority of students in secondary school are not from traveller backgrounds. Anyway, this thread is gone way of topic.

FA NG

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Now just be aware I'm not generating here but I too worked in adult education and on my first day I was told that I would be able to identify the students who were forced to be there because of social welfare and the ones who really wanted to be there and it was very obvious and that was day one!! These people were from traveller backgrounds and didn't engage in any of the material they were asked to do. It's great if things are changing with regards to people from traveller backgrounds but they also have to prepared to change as the majority of students in secondary school are not from traveller backgrounds. Anyway, this thread is gone way of topic.

The reason why a student is there isnt the business of the educator. Fact is they are there and thats the main thing, we dont get to decided who we teach. Ideally all students would show up to class with an itch to learn but we both know thats not reality and to expect that from a class is nonsense.
As a teacher the focus is on the student and I hope they leave having gained something from the class, regardless of their intentions for being there.

That said it also depends on the area and culture within the centre, ive heard horror stories from teachers in youthreach centres in areas of Dublin where teachers have left in tears. This comes down to violent, aggressive and criminal behaviour which is a separate issue altogether.

If its simply a case of an uninterested, unengaged, cheeky or temperamental student that doesnt want to be there? work with it and hopefully they will go home having gained something from the class. As an art teacher trying to motivate students with no interest in the subject can be very very difficult. Its always a challenge but ive always made it work. If it means structuring a lesson a different way for one student out of 20 who I know wont engage like others will, so be it.. they get a structure especially for themselves

No, the majority of students in second level arent from traveller backgrounds. Travellers are a marginalised group and due to this should be granted special privilege when it comes to education and include educating others about their culture while also integrating them into the community without the expectation that they change their customs to suit us and given a hand up in mainstream education to stop them from falling behind.
If this means developing curriculum or at the very least an increase in special services especially for marginalized groups then why not?? Again education is a right for everybody. Not just the students that fit into the little box mainstream ed has created. Entire groups of people are being excluded, more often than not theyre the students who need the most help.

thefasteriwalk

‘It’s also the idea that learners are subordinate to the teacher and must only do what the teacher permits.’

‘I don't like the terms control and respect when talking about learners, theyre people and should be treated as such.’ Treated how? With respect?

‘I guarantee if even half of them had been listened to, understood, respected. . . ‘

So you think that teachers don't deserve respect but students do?

I think you're talking absolute nonsense. Students should not be subordinate to the teacher? This utopian vision of yours is totally unrealistic and would see an even faster deterioration in our education system than that which we've seen in recent years. Your understanding of the modern secondary school is also skewed.

evolving_doors

ok, what's going on here you two... I'm reading with interest but then see the thread title is very different...
soooo back on topic!
But feel free to start a new thread.
Mod..

'Alternative route into teaching'

happywithlife

Omg root and route has been bugging me the whole thread but didn't want to nit pick :-D

dory

FA NG wrote: »

Banking style teaching is "the talking teacher and listening student". Its basically the idea that the teacher fills the students with knowledge (from a book) and discourages active participation from students within a class.

Are you just trying to rise people with this?? People doing the PME are bate out trying to get the students do 80% of the talking as the supervisors want active methodologies in every class. Maybe the reason you're so against the PME is because you've been given incorrect information.

Mardy Bum

dory wrote: »

Are you just trying to rise people with this?? People doing the PME are bate out trying to get the students do 80% of the talking as the supervisors want active methodologies in every class. Maybe the reason you're so against the PME is because you've been given incorrect information.

The OP doesn't have the money for it and so has decided it is ineffective.

There is no alternative route into teaching OP unless you go abroad and qualify.

A teacher who doesn't command respect will be eaten alive in certain classes.

mtoutlemonde

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The OP doesn't have the money for it and so has decided it is ineffective.

There is no alternative route into teaching OP unless you go abroad and qualify.

A teacher who doesn't command respect will be eaten alive in certain classes.

What I've been trying to say all day

I was thinking about this thread and realise how ironical it is that the OP is looking for shortcuts into teaching but says that students aren't treated fairly and with respect when in fact the most a student deserves is to have a 100% qualified teacher who made the right choices and followed through on them.

ustazjoseph

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Because Youthreach is generally for Travellers where they all come from the same backgrounds etc. Teaching in a secondary school, you deal with all kinds of student and how to deal with this. You have to be able to deal with high achieving kids to kids that will be lucky to get a pass. Teaching in Youthreach will mostly be LCA and Junior Cycle.

bit of a generalization ? Travelers are over represented in youthreach as are kids from poor neighbourhoods but the intake is broad. Ive worked in both. Generally to be effective in youthreach you have to be a very good teacher.

mtoutlemonde

ustazjoseph wrote: »

bit of a generalization ? Travelers are over represented in youthreach as are kids from poor neighbourhoods but the intake is broad. Ive worked in both. Generally to be effective in youthreach you have to be a very good teacher.

The OP was asking why he/she could teach in Youthreach and not a secondary school and in the majority of cases, students would not sit the traditional leaving cert - correct me if I'm wrong. And 'generally' to be effective in any educational setting - you have to be a good teacher.