Car tax, what's the point?

Shaungoater

Before I start, I always have car tax. But it is needed? My neighbours car tax ran out in August 2016, he has a BMW 2013. He drives it to work in finglas daily from our north Dublin suburb. Always has insurance but seems to have given up on car tax. He obviously has not had it checked so is it needed if the law is not enforced?

Orderofchaos

Shaungoater wrote: »

Before I start, I always have car tax. But it is needed? My neighbours car tax ran out in August 2016, he has a BMW 2013. He drives it to work in finglas daily from our north Dublin suburb. Always has insurance but seems to have given up on car tax. He obviously has not had it checked so is it needed if the law is not enforced?

It ain't a crime if you don't get caught. Big fine if you do. Probably 280 to tax for the year. If you can drive a 13 bimmer you can afford to tax it I'd imagine. Wouldn't chance it myself but have only came across 2 checkpoints in the last 4 years and I drive about 30k a year.

NIMAN

That person obviously believes in a level of lawlessness.
Like plenty of other members of the public.

Many will drive without tax or insurance.

Many don't pay the TV licence fee.

JohnBoy26

Orderofchaos wrote: »

It ain't a crime if you don't get caught. Big fine if you do. Probably 280 to tax for the year. If you can drive a 13 bimmer you can afford to tax it I'd imagine. Wouldn't chance it myself but have only came across 2 checkpoints in the last 4 years and I drive about 30k a year.

The car could get towed but what is the big fine?

Atlantic Dawn

The motor tax keeps the dole class in jobs.

JC01

Orderofchaos wrote: »

It ain't a crime if you don't get caught. Big fine if you do. Probably 280 to tax for the year. If you can drive a 13 bimmer you can afford to tax it I'd imagine. Wouldn't chance it myself but have only came across 2 checkpoints in the last 4 years and I drive about 30k a year.

It's an 80e fine so he's already up a decent profit over the last two years.

Orderofchaos

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

The car could get towed but what is the big fine?

I stand corrected. 80 euro fine, but car could be impounded and back tax and removal and storage costs can add up.

Del2005

Personally I've never bothered with car tax. Motor tax is what I pay.

R.O.R

Del2005 wrote: »

Personally I've never bothered with car tax. Motor tax is what I pay.

I'd say you also pay a huge amount of pedant tax each year as well.

Guy:Incognito

If we're going down this road there's lots of things you could steal and most likely get away with. Society runs on a principal of most people not being scumbags.

uck51js9zml2yt

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The motor tax keeps the dole class in jobs.

Link to your source please!

Del2005

R.O.R wrote: »

I'd say you also pay a huge amount of pedant tax each year as well.

I also don't drive in the fast lane

bazz26

Unless it's a M car they are driving with a ridiculous motor tax rate, you really have to wonder why someone driving a fairly new BMW refuses to pay €200 or €280 in motor tax per year.

Atlantic Dawn

bazz26 wrote: »

Unless it's a M car they are driving with a ridiculous motor tax rate, you really have to wonder why someone driving a fairly new BMW refuses to pay €200 or €280 in motor tax per year.

Or why someone doing tiny miles buys a diesel to save €2 a week in motor tax.

DaveyDave

bazz26 wrote: »

Unless it's a M car they are driving with a ridiculous motor tax rate, you really have to wonder why someone driving a fairly new BMW refuses to pay €200 or €280 in motor tax per year.

This bothers me more than the people driving around in clapped out bangers with no tax/insurance/NCT/license etc.

A lot of people with money are cheap bastards though. Driving a €50k Merc/BMW and too cheap to put in a few hundred a year on tax.

goz83

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Or why someone doing tiny miles buys a diesel to save €2 a week in motor tax.

They need that €2 per week to go toward the repair bill for making stupid decisions based on chape tax

McCrack

DaveyDave wrote: »

This bothers me more than the people driving around in clapped out bangers with no tax/insurance/NCT/license etc.

A lot of people with money are cheap bastards though. Driving a €50k Merc/BMW and too cheap to put in a few hundred a year on tax.

Well the top rate is 2,350 or 1,809 depending

Thats extortionate no matter what way you look at it

People with expensive cars with bigger engines pay much more VRT and of course petrol consumption is higher

elperello

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/motor-tax-revenue-to-be-paid-directly-to-central-government-1.3327927

Every euro of it goes direct to central funds.

I pay motor tax just for peace of mind. It means you can get into your car and drive anywhere you need to without worrying about a checkpoint and maybe a fine or your car confiscated.

DaveyDave

McCrack wrote: »

Well the top rate is 2,350 or 1,809 depending

Thats extortionate no matter what way you look at it

People with expensive cars with bigger engines pay much more VRT and of course petrol consumption is higher

Yeah but the number of people paying those tax rates is very low, unless you're driving a €100,000 AMG Merc you're not paying those rates. Even a €70,000 Merc is paying something like €390.

They pay more VRT because the value of the car is higher, fuel consumption is irrelevant to car tax. Also if someone is driving a larger expensive car fuel economy wouldn't be an issue.

McCrack

Well 390 per annum is reasonable, the top rates are not. Thats my point.

I brought in VRT and petrol to make the point that bigger cars pay more tax in other ways (VAT on petrol) so its somewhat wrong to be asking for another 1809 or 2350 being the top motor tax rates

cml387

Certainly a bit of irony here as the OP is, I believe, a teacher.

CeilingFly

Shaungoater wrote: »

Before I start, I always have car tax. But it is needed? My neighbours car tax ran out in August 2016, he has a BMW 2013. He drives it to work in finglas daily from our north Dublin suburb. Always has insurance but seems to have given up on car tax. He obviously has not had it checked so is it needed if the law is not enforced?

One day you'll find him pacing the driveway and cursing cos his car was impounded, had to psy the back tax, towing charge and fixed penalty charge.

Between a huge increase im checkpoints and anpr on most traffic corp cars, its just a question of time before his number is up

mickdw

CeilingFly wrote: »

One day you'll find him pacing the driveway and cursing cos his car was impounded, had to psy the back tax, towing charge and fixed penalty charge.

Between a huge increase im checkpoints and anpr on most traffic corp cars, its just a question of time before his number is up

Yep. That man is an idiot.
With the current rules, if he is stopped, he will have the car taken on the spot and will have no option but to pay all the back tax.
The only way he can avoid paying is to sell or change ownership. Driving every day, he is really pushing his luck at 18 months out of tax.

Pops_20

I regularly see cars that have tax expired for years, along with NCT also. Saw a well kept looking 1993 BMW 5 series yesterday with tax expired since 2013. Another Mitubishi Evo 6 I see driven daily has tax and NCT expired since 2012.
If you're willing to take the risk you can get away without paying - I haven't passed through a checkpoint in 2 years or so. The thing is if you don't pay you have to live with that constant feeling that you'll be screwed if pulled over. Not worth the risk IMO.

CeilingFly

Pops_20 wrote: »

I haven't passed through a checkpoint in 2 years or so. The thing is if you don't pay you have to live with that constant feeling that you'll be screwed if pulled over. Not worth the risk IMO.

If you've driven on a motorway / major road you'll have passed a speed/ anpr check - probably without knowing.

Usually on the down slip roads of junctions.

Best known on N7 is at Kill both north and south bound. On M9 they are on junction 6 almost every day and also junction 12.

boardsuser1

Went from €200 a year to €570.

The cost of repairs on the car with the cheaper tax was huge even though i was doing high mileage.

it was the dreaded 1.6 psa diesel engine.

PurvesGrundy

I have no issue with the principle of motor tax. What does bother me is the way the system is structured and why it is so needlessly expensive on a lot of cars. There is no linear trajectory in the rates that are implemented and it seems an absolute nonsense that somebody is expected to pay precisely the sum of 1809 euro for the privilege of driving their 3.2 litre car at a mileage that could be less than 2k a year.

If somebody buys a new V8 petrol sports car, they similarly should not be stuck with a rate of 2,350 euro a year either just so they can drive the car they want. It makes no sense for any car to be laboured with that obscene rate of tax for its lifetime until the point it becomes unsaleable and eventually exported, which will then result in a VRT rebate paid out by the exchequer.

mickdw

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

I have no issue with the principle of motor tax. What does bother me is the way the system is structured and why it is so needlessly expensive on a lot of cars. There is no linear trajectory in the rates that are implemented and it seems an absolute nonsense that somebody is expected to pay precisely the sum of 1809 euro for the privilege of driving their 3.2 litre car at a mileage that could be less than 2k a year.

If somebody buys a new V8 petrol sports car, they similarly should not be stuck with a rate of 2,350 euro a year either just so they can drive the car they want. It makes no sense for any car to be laboured with that obscene rate of tax for its lifetime until the point it becomes unsaleable and eventually exported, which will then result in a VRT rebate paid out by the exchequer.

They could easily introduce a reducing tax rate after 6 or so years. Im sure it would actually make money as there is significant avoidance of tax at the higher rates.
Maybe something like 10 percent reduction each year from year 6 until rate reaches 500 per year.
Motor trade would attempt to veto though im sure.

PurvesGrundy

mickdw wrote: »

They could easily introduce a reducing tax rate after 6 or so years. Im sure it would actually make money as there is significant avoidance of tax at the higher rates.
Maybe something like 10 percent reduction each year from year 6 until rate reaches 500 per year.
Motor trade would attempt to veto though im sure.

Exactly what I would be in favour of.

Shaungoater

cml387 wrote:

Certainly a bit of irony here as the OP is, I believe, a teacher.

And what has that got to do with anything?

Shaungoater

I was more wondering to be honest is there any other way it can be enforced. Because the way it's collected at the moment is obviously not working. What do other countries do?

newmember2

Stick it on the fuel already ffs...no avoidance then and would be the fairest way - pay as you go.

TheRiverman

newmember? wrote: »

Stick it on the fuel already ffs...no avoidance then and would be the fairest way - pay as you go.

Unfortunately the common sense to do this does not not exist in Government Buildings.

cml387

Shaungoater wrote: »

And what has that got to do with anything?

Sorry I responded to the thread title rather than the point you were making.

One easy answer is that when the tax is due, unless you declare your car is off the road, there is an automatic fine.

mickdw

newmember? wrote: »

Stick it on the fuel already ffs...no avoidance then and would be the fairest way - pay as you go.

But this is Ireland. Motortax abolished, fuel increased 50 cents per litre. A couple of years later, a new annual registration fee would be introduced for every internal combustion engined car and high fuel prices retained.

A Law

mickdw wrote: »

Yep. That man is an idiot.
With the current rules, if he is stopped, he will have the car taken on the spot and will have no option but to pay all the back tax.
The only way he can avoid paying is to sell or change ownership. Driving every day, he is really pushing his luck at 18 months out of tax.

If his car was impounded could he pay the impound fee and turn up with a car trailer and tow it away without paying the back tax? I was told that you'd be entitled to do it but I never found out for sure.

mickdw

joefuss1986 wrote: »

If his car was impounded could he pay the impound fee and turn up with a car trailer and tow it away without paying the back tax? I was told that you'd be entitled to do it but I never found out for sure.

If caught on the road, i dont see how one would get out of paying the back tax and a fine.
Whether the car could be released without paying i dont know but i would assume not.

honda boi

Father in laws car was impounded a year ago,not too sure for what but he didn't have tax anyway.
All it took was to pay impound fee and someone insured to drive it out. No back tax ,nothing.

goz83

newmember? wrote: »

Stick it on the fuel already ffs...no avoidance then and would be the fairest way - pay as you go.

Wouldn’t be very effective for electric vehicles, so not a good long term plan. In the recent past, i woukd have agreed with you.

beauf

goz83 wrote: »

Wouldn’t be very effective for electric vehicles, so not a good long term plan. In the recent past, i woukd have agreed with you.

That would an incentive to get an EV.

bazz26

Incentive to get people to switch but not sustainable with regards motor tax revenue. The Government will get their pound of flesh no matter what technology propels your car.

beauf

So few of them is it really a factor.

They should just make it month fee, done electronically. The money saved from printing all that printing of paper etc.

newmember2

beauf wrote: »

That would an incentive to get an EV.

It would be a great way to shape the uptake in non-ICE motoring. It doesn't need to be sustainable forever - once that uptake is underway, the policy can be changed to address the electricity supply for EVs. Either way though, it's pay as you go

As it is we're going to be facing paying billions in fines...https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/government-asked-how-it-will-pay-fines-for-carbon-emissions-1.3048027

EndaHonesty

beauf wrote: »

So few of them is it really a factor.

They should just make it month fee, done electronically. The money saved from printing all that printing of paper etc.

And how would you identify the payers from the non payers?

Let me guess... a piece of paper...?

Del2005

DaveyDave wrote: »

They pay more VRT because the value of the car is higher, fuel consumption is irrelevant to car tax. Also if someone is driving a larger expensive car fuel economy wouldn't be an issue.

After 2008 tax is based on fuel consumption, the more fuel efficient the less tax is paid. Granted its a fictional number made up by the manufacturer but it is a consumption based tax.

Del2005

Pops_20 wrote: »

I regularly see cars that have tax expired for years, along with NCT also. Saw a well kept looking 1993 BMW 5 series yesterday with tax expired since 2013. Another Mitubishi Evo 6 I see driven daily has tax and NCT expired since 2012.
If you're willing to take the risk you can get away without paying - I haven't passed through a checkpoint in 2 years or so. The thing is if you don't pay you have to live with that constant feeling that you'll be screwed if pulled over. Not worth the risk IMO.

With the way people are in this country both them cars are worth less than the fines and most likely will be destroyed if stopped, the owners will just go out and buy another cheap car and run till caught.

mickdw

Del2005 wrote: »

After 2008 tax is based on fuel consumption, the more fuel efficient the less tax is paid. Granted its a fictional number made up by the manufacturer but it is a consumption based tax.

Ah now that is a stretch.
How it is consumption based when it makes no distinction between a car doing 1k km per year and one doing 100k km per year.

boardsuser1

Del2005 wrote: »

With the way people are in this country both them cars are worth less than the fines and most likely will be destroyed if stopped, the owners will just go out and buy another cheap car and run till caught.

I’ve come across a particular household that have had more cars in the last year than some people have in a life time.

Tax/insurance/nct/licence, they don’t exist with them.

If a car breaks down or is seized they just go out and buy another one.

One of the current cars (they have a few) has no tax for nearly 2 years and no test for the last 3.

The only way to get the extra motor tax from people in these cases in tax on the fuel but it would be short lived.

Del2005

mickdw wrote: »

Ah now that is a stretch.
How it is consumption based when it makes no distinction between a car doing 1k km per year and one doing 100k km per year.

CO2 output is directly related to consumption. The fact that a high CO2 car doing low mileage is taxed more than a low CO2 car doing high mileage isn't fair but Motor tax is on the vehicle. The true consumption tax is the high mileage diver is paying more tax on the fuel they use.

bazz26

newmember? wrote: »

It would be a great way to shape the uptake in non-ICE motoring. It doesn't need to be sustainable forever - once that uptake is underway, the policy can be changed to address the electricity supply for EVs. Either way though, it's pay as you go

As it is we're going to be facing paying billions in fines...https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/government-asked-how-it-will-pay-fines-for-carbon-emissions-1.3048027

I know this is going off topic but out of interest how would you address the electricity supply for EVs? Have the electricity companies a way of knowing you are charging an EV overnight say over running your washing machine? And what about PHEVs?

Pops_20

Del2005 wrote: »

With the way people are in this country both them cars are worth less than the fines and most likely will be destroyed if stopped, the owners will just go out and buy another cheap car and run till caught.

I would have thought that an E34 would be worth more than 5,000, and the Evo 6 worth say 8,000 or more. So in that respect the cars are worth more than a potential fine.

What surprises me is that these are both 'car enthusiast' type cars. Even if you managed to break even after not paying tax for 5-6 years, surely you still don't want to see your car destroyed.