Imminent Implementation of the Clean Livestock Policy for Sheep.

greysides

This is what I've heard...as Ronald Reagan said, 'Trust but verify.'

You are most likely aware of this policy already. It's a done deal so there's no point arguing the rights or wrongs here.

This is some more info on it from Teagasc. The pictures are useful but I've seen sheep worse than the Category C picture presented for slaughter...

Now, to the kernal of the problem. I am reliably informed that as of January 1st, Category C sheep can not be slaughtered. (I can not find any information on Google to confirm this.)

Classification of the sheep will take place prior to slaughter at meat plants.

BUT... once sheep have stood on the ground of the plant they can not be returned to the farm.

If they can not be classified without leaving the transport there will be a problem...

Cattlepen

There will have to be a lot of dagging done . Oh my back!!!!😩😩

greysides

Some sheep might go from Cat C to Cat B when they dry out. The problem is that if they need to leave the lorry to be graded then they can't be returned if they are Cat C, and they can't be slaughtered.

ganmo

greysides wrote: »

Some sheep might go from Cat C to Cat B when they dry out. The problem is that if they need to leave the lorry to be graded then they can't be returned if they are Cat C, and they can't be slaughtered.

Is there any protocol about what happens then?
Will the owner be billed for feed if needed or indeed who owns them

greysides

ganmo wrote: »

Is there any protocol about what happens then?
Will the owner be billed for feed if needed or indeed who owns them

All in the air....

Best advice I can muster is:

1. Check the situation with any plant you may be sending sheep to in the New Year.

2. Have the sheep dry and as clean as possible.

3. See number 1.

4. See number 2.

kk.man

When this comes about the "group lorries " will be a huge issue. It will only take one dirty lot to get the rest into bother and add in a dirty Irish day.

wrangler

kk.man wrote: »

When this comes about the "group lorries " will be a huge issue. It will only take one dirty lot to get the rest into bother and add in a dirty Irish day.

bringing lambs in straight off grass before loading is not on,they'll destroy the lorry with ****e and some will lie down, muck on the belly is more trouble than on the arse, but throw in a dirty wet day as well as you say and there'll be chaos.
Our haulier has sealed decks and small pens, even so ours got held back for twenty four hours once this year and they were in overnight before loading.
But they were in with a dirty batch and my lambs were sopping wet

Cran

ganmo wrote: »

Is there any protocol about what happens then?
Will the owner be billed for feed if needed or indeed who owns them

My understanding is they will be held till dry, then shorn and charged back. But factories more concerned with wet animals than dirty and will put pressure on Marts imo

Green farmer

Wonder how this will effect the ordinary lad with a double deck of lambs. Will it be all single deck from now on ? Factories will still need the numbers, factory workers payroll too expensive to be standing around. They need to be constantly feed lambs. Will they be singling out the odd small lad to make an example out of ? Or will they stop one of their agents bring in big numbers ?

wrangler

Green farmer wrote: »

Wonder how this will effect the ordinary lad with a double deck of lambs. Will it be all single deck from now on ? Factories will still need the numbers, factory workers payroll too expensive to be standing around. They need to be constantly feed lambs. Will they be singling out the odd small lad to make an example out of ? Or will they stop one of their agents bring in big numbers ?

Well, mine were held back this year, I believe it was a shot across the bough because they knew enough would hear about it.
Some lambs are very dirty, farmers take them straight out of the fields and they dirty the lorry and lie down then. You'd be similar to me in that you don't sell straight off ewes, so it doesn't do them any harm to fast them, I'd imagine decks in trailer would be alright if they were fasted

davidk1394

wrangler wrote: »

Well, mine were held back this year, I believe it was a shot across the bough because they knew enough would hear about it.
Some lambs are very dirty, farmers take them straight out of the fields and they dirty the lorry and lie down then. You'd be similar to me in that you don't sell straight off ewes, so it doesn't do them any harm to fast them, I'd imagine decks in trailer would be alright if they were fasted

If their fasted for 24hours and given just water they don't shíte too much. Tis fair going to have animals category C. You'd literally have to drag the animal through muck and shít.

wrangler

davidk1394 wrote: »

If their fasted for 24hours and given just water they don't shíte too much. Tis fair going to have animals category C. You'd literally have to drag the animal through muck and shít.

I reckon twelve hours is plenty, we weighed our last load full and wet and then again 12 hours later fasted and they had lost 3.5 kgs and then brought them in our own trailer...lovely to be able to do it
You're fortunate to be using your own trailer, it's one disadvantage to our group,was never a problem before but it looks like it will be now.
We're on the edge of the group and the lambs are collected as early as 6oc and as they're on the front of the lorry they mightn't be unloaded till after 2oc. They will definitely lie down in that time, even with sawdust you can't have them full

davidk1394

wrangler wrote: »

I reckon twelve hours is plenty, we weighed our last load full and wet and then again 12 hours later fasted and they had lost 3.5 kgs and then brought them in our own trailer...lovely to be able to do it
You're fortunate to be using your own trailer, it's one disadvantage to our group,was never a problem before but it looks like it will be now.
We're on the edge of the group and the lambs are collected as early as 6oc and as they're on the front of the lorry they mightn't be unloaded till after 2oc. They will definitely lie down in that time, even with sawdust you can't have them full

Yeah our lads lost about that much after being fasted 24 hours. Its very handy being able to bring them down ourselves. The auld lad got to know the lads on the line and your man in the lairage. The whole lairage was full there last Wednesday so your man just said run them straight up along. He arrived at 2 and left at 3 with the trailer washed out and cheque in hand. A lot to be said for getting to know lads aswell.

wrangler

davidk1394 wrote: »

Yeah our lads lost about that much after being fasted 24 hours. Its very handy being able to bring them down ourselves. The auld lad got to know the lads on the line and your man in the lairage. The whole lairage was full there last Wednesday so your man just said run them straight up along. He arrived at 2 and left at 3 with the trailer washed out and cheque in hand. A lot to be said for getting to know lads aswell.

They're good there, we need them when dividing lambs, all our members with email addresses get their prices Emailed at 7 oc that evening and the cheque posted the same day

Green farmer

Wonder how this will effect store lamb finishers that strip graze sheep on stubble turnips, fodder beet etc.

orm0nd

wrangler wrote: »

They're good there, we need them when dividing lambs, all our members with email addresses get their prices Emailed at 7 oc that evening and the cheque posted the same day

Why are they still posting cheques? Bank transfer is way handier and cheaper.


Bar private sales icm are the only cause I go to bank.

ganmo

I'd say it's down to what ever IT system they use. And they're too tight to spend money on a new one

wrangler

ganmo wrote: »

I'd say it's down to what ever IT system they use. And they're too tight to spend money on a new one

It's probably taking a week before the money comes out of their account as opposed to immediately with a transfer.
So on 10000 lambs/wk they'd need another million working capital requirement.....that'd be a good enough reason to stay with cheques in my opinion, I wonder what percentage then don't lodge their cheques immediately, I'd say it's unusually high with farmers

wrangler

orm0nd wrote: »

Why are they still posting cheques? Bank transfer is way handier and cheaper.


Bar private sales icm are the only cause I go to bank.

Do you pay everything by transfer as well.......my tenant doesn't use a chequebook either ....great to just find the rent in the account.

ganmo

wrangler wrote: »

It's probably taking a week before the money comes out of their account as opposed to immediately with a transfer.
So on 10000 lambs/wk they'd need another million working capital requirement.....that'd be a good enough reason to stay with cheques in my opinion, I wonder what percentage then don't lodge their cheques immediately, I'd say it's unusually high with farmers

Never considered that.

orm0nd

wrangler wrote: »

Do you pay everything by transfer as well.......my tenant doesn't use a chequebook either ....great to just find the rent in the account.

mostly cards & and transfer when possible cheques would be last resort,

good point re icm , wouldn't have huge numbers & only go to bank when I'd have a few lots, but if there were others like me , it all adds up

In fairness to icm they're fast to issue payment

greysides

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/blacklisted-farmers-fall-foul-of-dirty-sheep-clampdown/?utm_content=bufferb7b23&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


As I understand this week ends the first week of a two week derogation of an EU rule that sheep can't leave a slaughter plant. Currently sheep have been sent for shearing or sent home having failed the Ante-Mortem inspection. Not sure what happens after the second week is over.

Implementation of the rules has resulted in cleaner sheep carcases after slaughter.

wrangler

greysides wrote: »

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/blacklisted-farmers-fall-foul-of-dirty-sheep-clampdown/?utm_content=bufferb7b23&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


As I understand this week ends the first week of a two week derogation of an EU rule that sheep can't leave a slaughter plant. Currently sheep have been sent for shearing or sent home having failed the Ante-Mortem inspection. Not sure what happens after the second week is over.

Implementation of the rules has resulted in cleaner sheep carcases after slaughter.

Was wondering how they were let back to the farm alright,
Interesting times ahead ......some farmers kick up holy hell at the moment at even having to pay a clipping charge, God help them..:eek:

grassroot1

Where is all this coming from is it to save money on the killing line or a health reason?
I have seen hoggets coming off beet tops and turnips caked in clay that looked as bad as the cat c sheep in the handout I received. Why is it suddenly a problem?
What will happen with spring lambs killed from the field? If I book in my lambs for killing the next day and its spilling rain do I cancel the delivery?

greysides

grassroot1 wrote: »

Where is all this coming from is it to save money on the killing line or a health reason?

It's due to the human health risk and the requirement on factories to produce visibly clean carases.

I have seen hoggets coming off beet tops and turnips caked in clay that looked as bad as the cat c sheep in the handout I received. Why is it suddenly a problem?

Sheep coming off ploughed fields are going to be a problem. It just isn't going to be acceptable. Some of the sheep sent up the line after coming off ploughed fields are just manky. It's amazing that the abattoir workers can clean them up as well as they do but it still isn't enough to meet rising standards. There have been changes in work practices and investment in equipment in an effort to sort out the problem but it hasn't been enough. The last thing left ot be done is to have sheep clean on delivery. It can be done. Sheep travelling long distances are often cleaner than sheep coming from just down the road.

The rules have been in existence for some time but not enforced. Patience in the Dept. has come to an end. The pressure for change is coming down along the line from the top.

What will happen with spring lambs killed from the field? If I book in my lambs for killing the next day and its spilling rain do I cancel the delivery?

Wet isn't so much the problem as 'wet and dirty'. Dry and dirty is easier to solve.. to a point. Might be best to house lambs overnight before delivering them.

Essentially what I'm told is that the standard has changed and management changes may be needed to meet the new requirements.

razor8

greysides wrote: »

It's due to the human health risk

Patience in the Dept. has come to an end. The pressure for change is coming down along the line from the top.
.

Where’s the evidence of the health risk? Has there been a report to confirm this? If there is maybe farmers would be more understanding if the dept was more transparent on exactly what the agenda is with this policy

Why is patience coming to an end? Are the dept now saying we haven’t been farming sheep properly anymore or why the sudden pressure for such drastic change??

greysides

razor8 wrote: »

Where’s the evidence of the health risk?

E. coli O157, Salmonella, Camplylobacter.

Why is patience coming to an end?

The Clean Livestock Policy has been in effect for some time without being enforced. Factories have been reluctant to enforce it due to losing lambs. The Dept are now insisting on its enforcement.

grassroot1

As I understand it ecoli 0157 is more of a problem in cattle that are housed or on intensive indoor diets. This will hardly be a case with sheep that are mostly fed outdoors. The other two I can't say. I do not recall a case where anyone has got sick from eating lamb.
What will happen with the lambs coming from Scotland if they don't pass inspection?

greysides

A share of the lambs coming in will be coming from feedlots. Thankfully i not heard of anyone getting sick from eating lamb either although somebody somewhere will have, at some time...
I'm told it's a case of rising standards. I know some customers, big customers, have been very particular in their standards.
I don't know what's going to happen to lambs coming long distances as it's still a case of getting the thing sorted but they dont tend to be the guilty culprits. The problem is more likely to be local/regional suppliers and often it's the same people repeatedly. On the other hand, some of the cleanest lambs come in small lots from local suppliers too.
I think it will all settle down when everyone comes to realise exactly what the new standards are. For some it will mean little or no change but for others it will involve some effort and changes in how they go about their business.

razor8

greysides wrote: »

E. coli O157, Salmonella, Camplylobacter.



The Clean Livestock Policy has been in effect for some time without being enforced. Factories have been reluctant to enforce it due to losing lambs. The Dept are now insisting on its enforcement.[/quote

They are the risks but where is the evidence current/recent practices arnt enough??

wrangler

razor8 wrote: »

greysides wrote: »

E. coli O157, Salmonella, Camplylobacter.



The Clean Livestock Policy has been in effect for some time without being enforced. Factories have been reluctant to enforce it due to losing lambs. The Dept are now insisting on its enforcement.

They are the risks but where is the evidence current/recent practices arnt enough??

Some farmers taking the proverbial and then we all have to suffer, some lambs are a right mess

greysides

Can't give you evidence, just saying how it is. Big retailers are calling the shots. We're not looking for microbiological sterile carcases, just visibly clean on inspection. The standard is probably considerably lower than you are considering. Isn't it everyone's right that when you buy meat you can expect it not to have any faecal, gut or soil/dust contamination on it?
Once it's present it will never be as good as if it hadn't been present, even with correction. Better not to be there in the first place.
Currently carcases are sorted out at the next stage of processing but that's not what should be the practice.
The process to ensure clean, safe food is that there is risk reduction at every stage. That includes adequate cooking by the consumer. These changes are about reducing the risk at abattoir level.
Whether you or I agree with them, this is happening.

wrangler

greysides wrote: »

Can't give you evidence, just saying how it is. Big retailers are calling the shots. We're not looking for microbiological sterile carcases, just visibly clean on inspection. The standard is probably considerably lower than you are considering. Isn't it everyone's right that when you buy meat you can expect it not to have any faecal, gut or soil/dust contamination on it?
Once it's present it will never be as good as if it hadn't been present, even with correction. Better not to be there in the first place.
Currently carcases are sorted out at the next stage of processing but that's not what should be the practice.
The process to ensure clean, safe food is that there is risk reduction at every stage. That includes adequate cooking by the consumer. These changes are about reducing the risk at abattoir level.
Whether you or I agree with them, this is happening.

TBF that's why we cook food, it was never possible for it to be sterile......it's just another reason now to drive people from producing food by people insulated from the real world.
It's long past time for the worm to turn, thank god I'm getting out

greysides

wrangler wrote: »

Some farmers taking the proverbial and then we all have to suffer, some lambs are a right mess

In honesty, yes. Over and above those that get caught out some lambs are just awful and repetitively so from the same supplier. We can see the names on the scales.... Dirty lots and clean lots, changing to match the change of names. With factories not wanting to upset suppliers the only way to enforce the rules was for the Dept to enforce it over all factories at the same time. The lads on the line who have been under pressure to slaughter them cleanly are delighted. At long last the greatest source of the problem is being tackled. These lads work long hard hours. It's time the blame fell where it's due.

greysides

wrangler wrote: »

..it's just another reason now to drive people from producing food by people insulated from the real world.
It's long past time for the worm to turn, thank god I'm getting out

You might have been appalled at the standard 10-15 years ago, even as a lay person just using your cop on. I was ! Things have improved a lot and are still being improved.

The worm that needed to turn was the line worker getting the blame for someone else's inaction. Now, things are turning for him.

Don't think that all lambs coming in were dirty. Most weren't and for these suppliers there is little or nothing to change.
Had you lambs you supplied pointed out as being dirty?
If not, you would have little to worry about now.

Its not a case of a rising tide lifting all ships. Its a case of those that needed, or had resisted, change having to do so now.

grassroot1

Yes but WET sheep this is Ireland FFS.
I was talking to someone working in ICM Camolin today he said it there was uproar during the week.
There is a guy from Galway shearing non stop up in the lairage. He said it is affecting through put on the line.
Last April I brought up lambs for slaughter and put them in a pen behind some hoggets in the lairage.Something caught my eye in the pen of hoggets they were in bits with scab scandalous. If my lambs had failed inspection they would not be coming home out of there under any circumstances.

razor8

I’m kicking myself I didn’t take a picture of the 4 I had last week. They had 2 bays to themselves on slats and were bone dry. I don’t know what else I could of done apart from bath them as I seen stated in paper

If lambs are filthy fair enough but lambs are been turned away that are not

greysides

grassroot1 wrote: »

Yes but WET sheep this is Ireland FFS.

Wet can be handled by leaving them to dry out in the lairage. Wet & dirty might be handled by drying out. Might.

I was talking to someone working in ICM Camolin today he said it there was uproar during the week.

Lads on the line were delighted. Initially anyway.

Dirty sheep have been the elephant in the room for a long time.

grassroot1

I dont think any farmer wants to produce a product that is not fit for consumption but it just seems we are penalised for everything and we carry the cost for everything.

greysides

razor8 wrote: »

I’m kicking myself I didn’t take a picture of the 4 I had last week. They had 2 bays to themselves on slats and were bone dry. I don’t know what else I could of done apart from bath them as I seen stated in paper

If lambs are filthy fair enough but lambs are been turned away that are not

I'm kicking myself I didn't get a picture of the large group of pristine lambs that came up during the week. It showed what can be done. Once they are hung up and the belly and arse on display you can really see where they are dirty.

It's often the underbelly that wouldn't always be very obvious.

Having dealt with the hassle of dirty sheep for years I'm glad not to be on point for dealing with this but I've had enough of dirty sheep.

greysides

grassroot1 wrote: »

I dont think any farmer wants to produce a product that is not fit for consumption but it just seems we are penalised for everything and we carry the cost for everything.

There are some hard-nosed lads out there. I won't argue the penalised and cost bit but the only people left who can improve the cleanliness of sheep coming in are farmers/transporters.

razor8

greysides wrote: »

I'm kicking myself I didn't get a picture of the large group of pristine lambs that came up during the week. It showed what can be done. Once they are hung up and the belly and arse on display you can really see where they are dirty.

It's often the underbelly that wouldn't always be very obvious.

Having dealt with the hassle of dirty sheep for years I'm glad not to be on point for dealing with this but I've had enough of dirty sheep.

did he bath them or had owner a few sheep the run of a couple of hundred acres . at this time of year pristine would hardly be common. most would be fed indoors at this stage & pick up dirt from climbing on each other or getting meal in a muddy field because of all the rain. this week anyway lambs outside of category c have been turned away. the leaflets handed out by dept are a waste of time if inspectors arn't following the policy themselves

Green farmer

razor8 wrote: »

most would be fed indoors at this stage & pick up dirt from climbing on each other or getting meal in a muddy field because of all the rain.

That sums it up perfectly. There’s only a few ways they can be finished and the margins aren’t there to do it any other way.

Lano Lynn

having lambs or cattle clean for slaughter while not always easy does make sense not like the QA bull**** unfortunatly it just feels like another stick to beat us with.

paddysdream

Heard Kepak Athleague suspended killing today due to CLP and difficulties with its implementation.
Now lets see who blinks first,Dept or factories.
Only problem is that eventually the bureaucracy and the cost will fall to the softest target in the line and no prizes for guessing who that will be.

wrangler

paddysdream wrote: »

Heard Kepak Athleague suspended killing today due to CLP and difficulties with its implementation.
Now lets see who blinks first,Dept or factories.
Only problem is that eventually the bureaucracy and the cost will fall to the softest target in the line and no prizes for guessing who that will be.

IFA meeting the department today, hopefully someone will see sense

kk.man

The big mantra of 'see all the jobs we create in rural areas' works every time. Only one winner in this game.

Lambman

Haven't sent lambs till factory in a wile but got contract shearing lambs bellys back ends and necks today for a farmer nearby is this what it has come till? I'd a clipped the whole fleece as quick as that tidying up but he wreckons he'd get cut in factory if I took all fleece off?

grassroot1

Have ewes to kill currently feeding on rape whats the current situation in the factory? Will they be sent home if dirty?

greysides

grassroot1 wrote: »

Have ewes to kill currently feeding on rape whats the current situation in the factory? Will they be sent home if dirty?

Yes. Or there may be a local arrangement of someone to clip them for you in the hope that makes them acceptable.

Neddyusa

Lambman wrote: »

Haven't sent lambs till factory in a wile but got contract shearing lambs bellys back ends and necks today for a farmer nearby is this what it has come till? I'd a clipped the whole fleece as quick as that tidying up but he wreckons he'd get cut in factory if I took all fleece off?

That's the thing.

This time last year Factory agent was giving me guff about bringing him shorn hoggets....they can't have it both ways!