Tractor won't start

sea12

With the cold weather over the past week my tractor don't start, have charged up the battery fully but still it won't turn over. Had small saw bales to give the sheep past few days but really want to start feeding them round bales.

So all ye mechanically minded people what's the best way to get her going in this frosty weather

valtra2

sea12 wrote: »

With the cold weather over the past week my tractor don't start, have charged up the battery fully but still it won't turn over. Had small saw bales to give the sheep past few days but really want to start feeding them round bales.

So all ye mechanically minded people what's the best way to get her going in this frosty weather

I would usually ring my mechanic

White Clover

sea12 wrote: »

With the cold weather over the past week my tractor don't start, have charged up the battery fully but still it won't turn over. Had small saw bales to give the sheep past few days but really want to start feeding them round bales.

So all ye mechanically minded people what's the best way to get her going in this frosty weather

Is it so it's not turning over fast enough to fire? What kind of tractor is it?

tanko

Is it turning over at all?
Dont mean to be smart but are you sure the battery is fully charged? Have you had it tested. This cold weather really finds out faulty batteries.
What are the connectuons to the battery like. The problem could be lots of things like a faulty key switch.

sea12

White Clover wrote: »

Is it so it's not turning over fast enough to fire? What kind of tractor is it?

Mf 365. Battery on charger and has it at full volts..
Leads are all tight and clean. It's always a poor starter in real cold weather.

White Clover

sea12 wrote: »

Mf 365. Battery on charger and has it at full volts..
Leads are all tight and clean. It's always a poor starter in real cold weather.

236 Perkins wouldn't be the hardest to start. Does it turn over for long before the battery dies?

mickdw

sea12 wrote: »

Mf 365. Battery on charger and has it at full volts..
Leads are all tight and clean. It's always a poor starter in real cold weather.

I'm not familiar with mf 365 but does it have a preheater and do you use it?

Harry Palmr

Light a fire under it, (okay maybe not) keep it under cover, wrap the engine in a heated blanket and plug it in an hour before you crank it over.

J.O. Farmer

sea12 wrote: »

Mf 365. Battery on charger and has it at full volts..
Leads are all tight and clean. It's always a poor starter in real cold weather.

Is it turning but not firing or turn the key and nothing happens.

If it's not turning you've a problem with the electric system somewhere from the battery to the starter.

If it's turning but not firing the cold could be a factor. A high output battery (high amps) is always a help especially in cold weather.

sea12

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Is it turning but not firing or turn the key and nothing happens.

If it's not turning you've a problem with the electric system somewhere from the battery to the starter.

If it's turning but not firing the cold could be a factor. A high output battery (high amps) is always a help especially in cold weather.

Yea it's turning over but barely. It's not the electrics. Pre heater I use but don't know if it works. Is a good battery. Only a year old

patsy_mccabe

Diesel engines don't like the cold. Unlike a petrol engine they don't have spark plugs. Ignition takes place when the air in the cylinder is compressed. This compression causes the air to heat up and so when the diesel is injected into this hot air, it ignites.

In cold weather the air is not compressed high enough.
Reasons could be;
- Poor compression due to piston ring wear
- Starter is poor and engine does not turn over quick enough as a result
- Poor connectors on the leads and so current is reduced to the starter
- Preheater on the air intake is broken.
- Battery is poor. It may be charging up right but current could be poor.

A mechanic should be able to check all of the above for you.

If you want a quick solution, get the tractor in doors and try and get some heat into it. Heater in a closed shed etc.
You could also try a hot air gun down the air intake. I find that great help before I got the piston rings changed in my tractor.

_Brian

There are so many places this could be failing.

Has it a pre heater ? You should be able to find it on the air intake manifold, likely have a wire and a diesel tube going to it. Ours has a heat position on the key where you can run the heater for a minute before turning the tractor over, makes a huge difference.

The leads from the battery back to the starter and equally important the Earth, are these good, they can fail over time.

The starter ? Has it ever been rewound? It could be gone lazy. If doing anything with it I’d suggest investing in a high speed starter.

The engine, when it does start does it run good ?? If it were down on compression it would be a dog to start.

The battery could be showing full bolts and yet still be dead, particularly if it’s been flattened and charged many times, lead acid batteries hate, hate, hate being drained completely and it will ruin them. Bring it to a motor factors and they will measure the power stored and not just the voltage.

sea12

_Brian wrote: »

There are so many places this could be failing.

Has it a pre heater ? You should be able to find it on the air intake manifold, likely have a wire and a diesel tube going to it.

The leads from the battery back to the starter and equally important the Earth, are these good, they can fail over time.

The starter ? Has it ever been rewound? It could be gone lazy. If doing anything with it I’d suggest investing in a high speed starter.

The engine, when it does start does it run good ?? If it were down on compression it would be a dog to start.

The battery could be showing full bolts and yet still be dead, particularly if it’s been flattened and charged many times, lead acid batteries hate, hate, hate being drained completely and it will ruin them. Bring it to a motor factors and they will measure the power stored and not just the voltage.

I put a new high speed starter in 2 years ago. Leads are good. Probably battery as issue with alternator do it has been charged a good few times in the year

Dakota Dan

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Diesel engines don't like the cold. Unlike a petrol engine they don't have spark plugs. Ignition takes place when the air in the cylinder is compressed. This compression causes the air to heat up and so when the diesel is injected into this hot air, it ignites.

In cold weather the air is not compressed high enough.
Reasons could be;
- Poor compression due to piston ring wear
- Starter is poor and engine does not turn over quick enough as a result
- Poor connectors on the leads and so current is reduced to the starter
- Preheater on the air intake is broken.
- Battery is poor. It may be charging up right but current could be poor.

A mechanic should be able to check all of the above for you.

If you want a quick solution, get the tractor in doors and try and get some heat into it. Heater in a closed shed etc.
You could also try a hot air gun down the air intake. I find that great help before I got the piston rings changed in my tractor.

Another trick is to drain the water and fill it with very hot water.

Irish Beef

Does it start with a jump start from another tractor, if so its more than likely your battery, as previously stated a battery could still measure 12v and have no power in it at all, if this problem is only after happening since the cold snap and also since you said it got a new starter motor two years ago Id say your battery is Knackered . If you can get her running check the voltage of battery when running, if its measuring over 14v this will eliminate a problem with your alternator. I know you said you cant get it started.

kevthegaff

Pull out air filter and put abit of newspaper on fire at the intake!

davidk1394

kevthegaff wrote: »

Pull out air filter and put abit of newspaper on fire at the intake!

How does easy start work in the engine ?

J.O. Farmer

davidk1394 wrote: »

How does easy start work in the engine ?

From the holts website

Bradex Easy Start helps engines start by increasing the combustibility of the fuel and the air mixture within the engine. This can help ensure the fuel ignites when the ignition key is turned – getting your vehicle started and back on the road.

https://www.holtsauto.com/holts/support/bradex-easy-start-work/

It's not meant to be great for the engine to use it too often.

cute geoge

sea12 wrote: »

I put a new high speed starter in 2 years ago. Leads are good. Probably battery as issue with alternator do it has been charged a good few times in the year

I spent last winter jumping,pulling and farting around nearly every cold day with a 390 .I had replaced the starter a few years previous and new battery .
Your problem sounds similar and i spent a lot of time head scratching I got talking to main dealer and he recommended the high speed starter that fits the 4200 series mf. Once i fitted this starter my tractor seemed like a new tractor again .
My old starter worked no problem but once temp got below 7/8 degree she just turned over like the battery was flat .A share of them starters are spurious but new one was in genuine anco sealed box

kk.man

cute geoge wrote: »

sea12 wrote: »

I put a new high speed starter in 2 years ago. Leads are good. Probably battery as issue with alternator do it has been charged a good few times in the year

I spent last winter jumping,pulling and farting around nearly every cold day with a 390 .I had replaced the starter a few years previous and new battery .
Your problem sounds similar and i spent a lot of time head scratching I got talking to main dealer and he recommended the high speed starter that fits the 4200 series mf. Once i fitted this starter my tractor seemed like a new tractor again .
My old starter worked no problem but once temp got below 7/8 degree she just turned over like the battery was flat .A share of them starters are spurious but new one was in genuine anco sealed box

Thanks for that!
I've the exact problem here.

Hillman86

My 565 has a similar problem, what would it cost (roughly) to replace the starter?

foxy farmer

davidk1394 wrote: »

How does easy start work in the engine ?

Keep away from it. It's like heroin to an engine. It'll develop an addiction to it and after a bit won't start hot or cold without it.:)
The crack from the engine when it starts after a whiff of Easy Start would have you crapping yourself. Frightening stuff. Youd think the head had been blown off.
Quick test for the battery. Turn on the lights. Try starting the engine. If the lights dim away down battery might be in trouble. An ordinary voltmeter is no good to test the condition of a battery. You need a garage version that puts a dummy load across the terminals.

_Brian

davidk1394 wrote: »

How does easy start work in the engine ?

Engines get addicted to easy start, I’d advice against.
The paper trick is less of a long term problem.

Get the battery checked, alternator checked, and see about a pre heater.

Robson99

How much are pre-heaters ?

_Brian

Robson99 wrote: »

How much are pre-heaters ?

I bought a new heater plug for ours recently and it was maybe €20/25
But it’s not just the plug, there is some piping to supply diesel to the heater and of course wiring.
I saw a class video of one operation on a bench test, the plug heats red hot, the heat expands the core which opens and allows a small trickle of diesel across the element igniting it. On our DB a “pop” can be heard when it happens, turn the key at that point and it starts instantly !!

Wessel3

have similar problem in 675 with a236 engine,
get a battery with cold cranking amps >1000A, give her plenty fo oomph to get her turning and create heat and compression to fire up.
easy start wouldn't be recommended.
heard of paper on fire used

_Brian

Here is a good video of one in action, it’s fitted to the inlet manifold.
You can see it’s screwed through the manifold.

https://youtu.be/NeDvCVS38hk

patsy_mccabe

I never thought the Air Intake Heater Plug did much till I took mine off and tested it last year. It's like a little flame thrower. You have to hold on the key long enough for the flame to work.

_Brian

I once saw one fitted aftermarket style where the resivor for the diesel was manually filed rather then plumed in.
He had an engineering workshop bore the manifold and weld in a socket to screw in the plug.

He said it worked fine and filling the wee tank was no trouble as it was only needed in very cold weather. I think it was a Fordson Major, can’t remember it was maybe 20 years ago.

Bass Reeves

Older Massey's are notorious slow/lazy starters. I had a 675 for a while a hi-speed starter sorted the issue but after a time it failed. For some reason dampness has a habit of getting into the starters.

One thing to check is in some models there is an inspection cover under tractor which if removed, loose or not on right can allow water to be drawn up into the starters and the crank gears

Make sure all connections are tight and no cracks on battery terminals. One good test is to short across terminals/connections with a pliers and get someone else to try to start tractor. Put a voltmeter across battery to see if voltage drops sharply when you try to start it. Check voltage 24 and 48 hours after finishing recharging to see if it is dropping g voltage too quick.

However I think it is starter or loose terminal/connection issue so I would get this well checked out. Get heater plug switch checked as well but I would consider getting starter checked

Wessel3

out f interest, any one fit a manual heater switch that can be left on for say 30sec/1min constant without trying not to accidentally start the key

_Brian

No, but I couldn’t see it being a big task, push button would be best so it can’t be left on accidentally.

I wired ours myself. It works at the start position. But with the tractor in gear there is a protection in the gear box to prevent the starter turning.

So, we pop her in gear, hold the key in the start position for 30/60 seconds. Then pop her out of gear and the starter cranks.

larthehar

_Brian wrote: »

No, but I couldn’t see it being a big task, push button would be best so it can’t be left on accidentally.

I wired ours myself. It works at the start position. But with the tractor in gear there is a protection in the gear box to prevent the starter turning.

So, we pop her in gear, hold the key in the start position for 30/60 seconds. Then pop her out of gear and the starter cranks.

By right you should only heat for a max of 30sec. With our 35, swing the engine cold just once, heat for 20 sec, with a slackened throttle fire it and as it swings up pull the throttle and away she goes..
Incorrect Valve clearances are a common enough problem too and is easy enough to check and adjust..

_Brian

larthehar wrote: »

By right you should only heat for a max of 30sec. With our 35, swing the engine cold just once, heat for 20 sec, with a slackened throttle fire it and as it swings up pull the throttle and away she goes..
Incorrect Valve clearances are a common enough problem too and is easy enough to check and adjust..

Your correct.
Also running the heater plugs too long can warp the valve within, this can then consistently leak in a small amount of diesel leaving the engine smokey when running.

patsy_mccabe

The current flowing when you start a tractor is massive. It can be over 600 Amps. Compare that to say a plug socket in your house fused at 13amps. To deliver that current, leads should be heavy with very good connections. Years ago, an electrician friend of mine recommended a welding cable with properly crimped lugs on the ends. The difference was unreal. The same applies to the earth connections. The same current flows in both the live and earth cables.

Turbohymac

Well if it's only barely turning over as previous poster advised. Your battery could be knackered.. easiest and cheapest way to test this would be to connect battery in tractor to another vehicle with good quality jump leads and make sure the other vehicle is at fast tick over .. engine revved up above 1000 rpm anyway.. if your tractor now turns engine over quickly. Then the battery you refer to as being fully charged is knackered. Ie don't rely on the charger to say all is ok. If battery was high. Discharge tested it would give a true reflection of the battery condition. It's either good or. Knackered..

If with jump leads connected to another vehicle that is running and tractor engine is still refusing to swing over quickly then it's most likely the starter motor and a new battery won't solve your problem

sea12

Quick update. Got a new battery last month and it worked perfect but unfortunately went dead this morning do it's definitely the alternator. Is it an easy job to replace.

Don't want to ask the mechanic I use cause he'd ride you barebavk snd sick of paying out big frees for simple jobs. Not the most mechanical minded but can use s few scanners to replace something if it's a simple enough job.

larthehar

sea12 wrote: »

Quick update. Got a new battery last month and it worked perfect but unfortunately went dead this morning do it's definitely the alternator. Is it an easy job to replace.

Don't want to ask the mechanic I use cause he'd ride you barebavk snd sick of paying out big frees for simple jobs. Not the most mechanical minded but can use s few scanners to replace something if it's a simple enough job.

If you have a multi meter i would check the voltage directly off the altenator.. if it is 14.5V, check the same at the battery.. that will tell you if the connection is bad..
if you have to replace the altenator;

Take note of cable connections - what colour goes where and un plug all
Loosen two bolts hinging underneath
Loosen bolt on slider rail
Push in the altenator and lift off the belt
Remove all three bolts and off she comes..

Reverse to refit, just make sure the belt is tensioned enough..

Tomjim

someone told me that I could heat the tractor engine with an infra red light in this cold weather when it is getting it hard to start. Is this true?

case956tom

Tomjim wrote: »

someone told me that I could heat the tractor engine with an infra red light in this cold weather when it is getting it hard to start. Is this true?

i use a heatgun down the air intake or a hairdrier you would'nt believe the difference it makes.

tanko

Tomjim wrote: »

someone told me that I could heat the tractor engine with an infra red light in this cold weather when it is getting it hard to start. Is this true?

Even if you put the tractor in a shed and cover the engine with old carpets or tarpaulin etc it leaves the tractor easier to start i find.

Attie

Have a hunt through utube on how to change alternator.
Also tips on how to start a cold engine.

Tomjim

heated the battery this morning with an electric fan heater and it worked, started first time.

Just wondering which would be the best area of the tractor to heat with the electric fan heaterto heat - the battery or the air inlet

Never wrestle with pigs

case956tom wrote: »

i use a heatgun down the air intake or a hairdrier you would'nt believe the difference it makes.

Those 956s can be a baste!d to start. Is your battery in front or at the step? They have no heater plugs at all I don't think? Unreal tractor though.

case956tom

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Those 956s can be a baste!d to start. Is your battery in front or at the step? They have no heater plugs at all I don't think? Unreal tractor though.

the battery is in the front of my one,they have a heater coil in the intake,if you dont have at least 750 cca in the battery then no start.

case956tom

Tomjim wrote: »

heated the battery this morning with an electric fan heater and it worked, started first time.

Just wondering which would be the best area of the tractor to heat with the electric fan heaterto heat - the battery or the air inlet

i'd put the heat into the intake,done it here on a 3cx during the freezing weather in 09 the battery would hardly turn the engine a couple of minutes with a hairdryer instant start.

Never wrestle with pigs

case956tom wrote: »

the battery is in the front of my one,they have a heater coil in the intake,if you dont have at least 750 cca in the battery then no start.

I was told they didn't have one ha, turn the key just past ignition and before the starter kicks in for a minute then like a normal yoak?

case956tom

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

I was told they didn't have one ha, turn the key just past ignition and before the starter kicks in for a minute then like a normal yoak?

just turn the key to the first position the heater will come on it uses a relay with a timer in it,its a similar setup to the one in a diesel car.

Never wrestle with pigs

case956tom wrote: »

just turn the key to the first position the heater will come on it uses a relay with a timer in it,its a similar setup to the one in a diesel car.

Thanks, I've been doing it wrong ha