Bookmaker Not Acting Responsibly?

Rosstopher

Hey guys

Long story short, I like a flutter a little bit more than the next man. I do online gambling and recently I’ve really been trying to cut down on my potential losses by setting deposit limits on any bookie I am with - I probably have 4 - 5 accounts I switch between periodically depending on odds and offers, but on all of these I have a daily limit set to €10 per week/day depending on which one. So there’s no danger of me ever going off the rails and dropping €100 on a Ecuador 2nd division game or something stupid.

Anyway, I’ve had my limits set for a while and it gives me great peace of mind to know I’ll never really gamble more than a tenner a day, unless I start switching between account which I rarely do.

Anyway, for one of these bookies who i won’t name yet, I got an email stating they were rewriting their terms and conditions and something about all deposit limits being reset and no longer being in effect and had to be manually reset, I didn’t really pay much attention at the time as I have never really use this particular site.

So.. the weekend just gone I had a jar or 2 too many and happened to start using this site again and racked up losses way worse than the limits I had set.

Obviously I’m the one to blame, I gambled beyond my limits and ultimately it’s my fault.

But.. does anybody think the bookmaker isn’t exactly fulfilling their responsibly gambling duty of care by just canceling my deposit limit I had set? And letting a customer who had tried to control themselves gamble to their hearts content immediately?

Of course I could have set it again immediately, but I still think this may have been a bit underhanded.

Do I have grounds to complain?

weldoninhio

Rosstopher wrote: »

Hey guys

Long story short, I like a flutter a little bit more than the next man. I do online gambling and recently I’ve really been trying to cut down on my potential losses by setting deposit limits on any bookie I am with - I probably have 4 - 5 accounts I switch between periodically depending on odds and offers, but on all of these I have a daily limit set to €10 per week/day depending on which one. So there’s no danger of me ever going off the rails and dropping €100 on a Ecuador 2nd division game or something stupid.

Anyway, I’ve had my limits set for a while and it gives me great peace of mind to know I’ll never really gamble more than a tenner a day, unless I start switching between account which I rarely do.

Anyway, for one of these bookies who i won’t name yet, I got an email stating they were rewriting their terms and conditions and something about all deposit limits being reset and no longer being in effect and had to be manually reset, I didn’t really pay much attention at the time as I have never really use this particular site.

So.. the weekend just gone I had a jar or 2 too many and happened to start using this site again and racked up losses way worse than the limits I had set.

Obviously I’m the one to blame, I gambled beyond my limits and ultimately it’s my fault.

But.. does anybody think the bookmaker isn’t exactly fulfilling their responsibly gambling duty of care by just canceling my deposit limit I had set? And letting a customer who had tried to control themselves gamble to their hearts content immediately?

Of course I could have set it again immediately, but I still think this may have been a bit underhanded.

Do I have grounds to complain?

Complain about what?

They updated their system which reset their limits, sent you an email letting you know this, which you ignored, then went on a spree and lost.

If you were up a few grand would you be trying to return anything you won above and beyond your limit??

punisher5112

You can complain but you really need to consider cutting back. Having 5 accounts isn't healthy.

If you are ever planning on getting a mortgage I would suggest cancellation of all online accounts.

Rosstopher

weldoninhio wrote: »

Complain about what?

They updated their system which reset their limits, sent you an email letting you know this, which you ignored, then went on a spree and lost.

If you were up a few grand would you be trying to return anything you won above and beyond your limit??

I do appreciate the feedback. But are you aware of the purpose of setting such limits?

Whether I ignored the email or not is irrelevant. They gave me, someone who set a limit to prevent excessive gambling, a license to bet as much as I wanted immediately.

I know I went mad and lost control, but the limits I set were to prevent this. Surely all this responsible gambling legislation and stuff is nonsense if they can drop your guard for you at any time.

And don’t patronise me with your last paragraph, please.

Rosstopher

punisher5112 wrote: »

You can complain but you really need to consider cutting back. Having 5 accounts isn't healthy.

If you are ever planning on getting a mortgage I would suggest cancellation of all online accounts.

It’s definitely not healthy to even have one account in my book. But even with the 5 account and the limits I set I was comfortable with this. For example if I had one account it would probably be a 30-50 euro limit. Instead I have it split across the few.

listermint

Cut down the accounts.


End of story

Owryan

Rosstopher wrote: »

I do appreciate the feedback. But are you aware of the purpose of setting such limits?

Whether I ignored the email or not is irrelevant. They gave me, someone who set a limit to prevent excessive gambling, a license to bet as much as I wanted immediately.

I know I went mad and lost control, but the limits I set were to prevent this. Surely all this responsible gambling legislation and stuff is nonsense if they can drop your guard for you at any time.

And don’t patronise me with your last paragraph, please.

The limits were set by you not them, therefore is it not your responsibility to reset them. They emailed you so its not as if you didnt know the limits were gone.

the_syco

Rosstopher wrote: »

I probably have 4 - 5 accounts

Rosstopher wrote: »

So.. the weekend just gone I had a jar or 2 too many and happened to start using this site again and racked up losses way worse than the limits I had set.

Even if they had stopped you, you would have probably just created more accounts to bypass their safeguards.

Rosstopher

the_syco wrote: »

Even if they had stopped you, you would have probably just created more accounts to bypass their safeguards.

Well no, as I haven’t set up any accounts to bypass this in years.

Rosstopher

listermint wrote: »

Cut down the accounts.


End of story

Not end of story, the amount of accounts is not the issue at all. I know my limits and I have it set broadly across all as sometimes some bookies have better odds and specials than others. Thanks though.

Rosstopher

No offense but this obviously wasn’t the right place to come. Lots of self righteous people who don’t know much about responsible gambling legislation.

Mods you can close this thread if you want. No need for anymore pointless answers.

ANXIOUS

Rosstopher wrote: »

No offense but this obviously wasn’t the right place to come. Lots of self righteous people who don’t know much about responsible gambling legislation.

Mods you can close this thread if you want. No need for anymore pointless answers.

Can you point me towards any responsible gambling legislation?

Rosstopher

Owryan wrote: »

The limits were set by you not them, therefore is it not your responsibility to reset them. They emailed you so its not as if you didnt know the limits were gone.

Ah now that is the epitome of uninformed. Why speak on a subject you have no clue on? Really like...

Rosstopher

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Can you point me towards any responsible gambling legislation?

Legislation may be the wrong word. But these companies run under the watchful eye of IBAS, GamReg etc, I know they are in the UK. They have responsibilities bestowed upon them to protect vulnerable customers.

The reason I asked on here was to see if anybody had more information than me on the matter. Seems not.

Owryan

Rosstopher wrote: »

Ah now that is the epitome of uninformed. Why speak on a subject you have no clue on? Really like...

Just summing up what you told us.

Wah wah wah, i got pissed and gambled away more money than i should have but it's not my fault, the big bad gambling man put a gun to my head and made me.

ANXIOUS

Rosstopher wrote: »

Legislation may be the wrong word. But these companies run under the watchful eye of IBAS, GamReg etc, I know they are in the UK. They have responsibilities bestowed upon them to protect vulnerable customers.

The reason I asked on here was to see if anybody had more information than me on the matter. Seems not.

Complain if you want, they may as a gesture of goodwill give you something back and ban you forever. I doubt it but if you feel aggrieved you've nothing to lose..

You probably already know this yourself but you need to look at the bigger picture which is your gambling.

Rosstopher

For people that fail to get the issue at all, here’s a little analogy...

Tommy runs a bar and John is a regular customer, John comes in every Saturday for a few pints. John tells Tom one day to only ever to let him have 2 pints in a week and no more unless he gets clearance medically that he’s allowed to have more. Tommy tells John just to write it down for him so they have the agreement on paper.

6 months later Tommy tells John one day that he’s just got a new license so that their agreement isn’t in place anymore and that they must write up a new agreement, and that John can drink to his hearts content that day unless he tells Tommy not to allow him again. John, not thinking straight, drinks 10 pints that day and ends up sick.


Now..Tommy didn’t force the drinks down Johns neck.. but doesn’t he have some duty of care?

ANXIOUS

Rosstopher wrote: »

For people that fail to get the issue at all, here’s a little analogy...

Tommy runs a bar and John is a regular customer, John comes in every Saturday for a few pints. John tells Tom one day to only ever to let him have 2 pints in a week and no more unless he gets clearance medically that he’s allowed to have more. Tommy tells John just to write it down for him so they have the agreement on paper.

6 months later Tommy tells John one day that he’s just got a new license so that their agreement isn’t in place anymore and that they must write up a new agreement, and that John can drink to his hearts content that day unless he tells Tommy not to allow him again. John, not thinking straight, drinks 10 pints that day and ends up sick.


Now..Tommy didn’t force the drinks down Johns neck.. but doesn’t he have some duty of care?

No that's not it, Tommy sent him a message when sober and said changing our license if you still want that agreement just click this button. John decides not to because he thinks he can control his drinking.

A few weeks later John is out and has two pints in Tommy's rival pub. Tommy's rival pub cuts John off after two pints and then John remembers he can have as much as he wants in Tommy's so goes there and drinks the head of himself.

Are you or your gambling habits in anyway to blame?

Rosstopher

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Complain if you want, they may as a gesture of goodwill give you something back and ban you forever. I doubt it but if you feel aggrieved you've nothing to lose..

You probably already know this yourself but you need to look at the bigger picture which is your gambling.

Thanks mate, I might write to them just to see.

And yeah there is an issue there. But to be honest I’ve been quite content under my limits for quite a while now. I know I should have more self-control, but those options should also be there for a reason. I don’t see why they couldn’t just re-use the same limits on all accounts. Giving someone that had limited themselves instant access to unlimited gambling surely isn’t responsible...

Rosstopher

ANXIOUS wrote: »

No that's not it, Tommy sent him a message when sober and said changing our license if you still want that agreement just click this button. John decides not to because he thinks he can control his drinking.

In other words.. come here right now for unlimited drinking despite what you previously agreed?

No?

Rosstopher

ANXIOUS wrote: »

No that's not it, Tommy sent him a message when sober and said changing our license if you still want that agreement just click this button. John decides not to because he thinks he can control his drinking.

A few weeks later John is out and has two pints in Tommy's rival pub. Tommy's rival pub cuts John off after two pints and then John remembers he can have as much as he wants in Tommy's so goes there and drinks the head of himself.

Are you or your gambling habits in anyway to blame?

If I ever tried to increase the limit it would ask me to wait 24 hours or 7 days in some cases.. usually allowing enough time for a cool head to prevail.

These controls are set so that you can’t just instantly decide you want to gamble loads.. they gave me that option.

kwestfan08

Why didn't you just use one of the other four availible accounts to you to do your punting that had a limit on them? You had a choice in where you bet or am I missing something?

bucketybuck

Rosstopher wrote: »

6 months later Tommy tells John one day that he’s just got a new license so that their agreement isn’t in place anymore

There's your duty of care right there.

Rosstopher

People have lost track considerably here. I’m not looking for counseling.

Perhaps if I rephrased the question and didn’t give ammunition to allow people to make things personal.

So..

If a person sets a limit with a bookie, should that bookie be allowed to instantly remove the limit?


Even if you inform the customer, you are still notifying someone that’s acknowledged a problem that they have unlimited access to gambling.

But anyway, I don’t expect any decent replies.


Mods please close thread.

Collie D

Obvious question and I'll probably have my head bitten off for it but why didn't you reset the limit when you got the email? Have you done it now?

wylo

What kind of “decent reply” do you want?

Bookies don’t have to provide the limits service if they don’t want to (afaik). Stop gambling simple as. Are you honestly blaming them? They even tried to tell you the limits have been reset.

Are they supposed to just guess what limit you want after their database was cleared.

You shouldn’t be using bookies if you’re not cut out for it. Much like alcoholics shouldn’t have that “1 pint”.

It’s issues like this that only further increases our nanny state factor.

bucketybuck

If any company reset all their terms and conditions then that could affect any agreements made and so yes, I would expect all existing agreements to become null and void. It happens frequently and customers often benefit from it because they can walk way from certain contracts at that time if they wanted to.

If the terms and conditions change then the agreements have to change as well, thats just common sense. And if the agreements are changing then the customer needs to actively engage in this, the company cannot just reapply the old agreements because you will get somebody complaining, "I agreed to this but it was under the old conditions, not these new ones, I wouldn't have done it under the new terms and conditions".

So the terms and conditions have changed and any old agreements cannot remain in place, whats the sensible thing to do? Thats right, inform the customer who can then put in place new and updated agreements.

MarkY91

They emailed you about the limit being reset. You chose to ignore it. You also chose to go betting over your limit. Deal with your decision and move on.

Rosstopher

MarkY91 wrote: »

They emailed you about the limit being reset. You chose to ignore it. You also chose to go betting over your limit. Deal with your decision and move on.

What are you on about? Even had I not ignored it, they afforded me instant access to unlimited gambling! The timing or ignorance of the email is not what I’m questioning.

Rosstopher

Collie D wrote: »

Obvious question and I'll probably have my head bitten off for it but why didn't you reset the limit when you got the email? Have you done it now?

There’s no need for more patronisation, honestly.

And the answer is I don’t know. I hadn’t gambled much in a while and thought I’ll get around to it at some stage as it would take a few minutes.

But my query was nothing to do with my control, I know I lost it. I just wanted to know the bookmakers responsibilities and if I had any grounds for complaint. Instead it’s gambling and responding to email therapy in here.

Rosstopher

bucketybuck wrote: »

If any company reset all their terms and conditions then that could affect any agreements made and so yes, I would expect all existing agreements to become null and void. It happens frequently and customers often benefit from it because they can walk way from certain contracts at that time if they wanted to.

If the terms and conditions change then the agreements have to change as well, thats just common sense. And if the agreements are changing then the customer needs to actively engage in this, the company cannot just reapply the old agreements because you will get somebody complaining, "I agreed to this but it was under the old conditions, not these new ones, I wouldn't have done it under the new terms and conditions".

So the terms and conditions have changed and any old agreements cannot remain in place, whats the sensible thing to do? Thats right, inform the customer who can then put in place new and updated agreements.

Ok but why are they able to hold onto every other detail including my debit card but not hang onto details on my limits? I thought acting responsibly would be upholding any limits. These companies I am told are under severe scrutiny to adhere to responsible gambling techniques. Anyway....

Make the complaint op. People get high and mighty on the Internet. You are trying to deal with your addiction and set the limits and they were taken away..
Yes you are responsible for your own actions but maybe a complaint will change the way they do things in the future.

bucketybuck

Rosstopher wrote: »

Ok but why are they able to hold onto every other detail including my debit card but not hang onto details on my limits? I thought acting responsibly would be upholding any limits. These companies I am told are under severe scrutiny to adhere to responsible gambling techniques. Anyway....

Holding details is not the same as enforcing agreements made under old terms and conditions.

Once those terms and conditions changed the only option the company had was to inform you and allow you the opportunity to make new arrangements. They did this.

Collie D

Rosstopher wrote: »

There’s no need for more patronisation, honestly.

And the answer is I don’t know. I hadn’t gambled much in a while and thought I’ll get around to it at some stage as it would take a few minutes.

But my query was nothing to do with my control, I know I lost it. I just wanted to know the bookmakers responsibilities and if I had any grounds for complaint. Instead it’s gambling and responding to email therapy in here.

I'm not patronising anyone. It's a valid question. Have you done it now?

Maybe the bookie could be accused of being underhanded by clearing the limit but they did notify you. This is the sticking point.

Billgirlylegs

I think you have gotten the wrong end of the stick.
Gambling is not an "industry" that does "responsible"

The arrangement where you set daily limits is window dressing so that the "industry" can proclaim it is really socially responsible.
Your part in "the industry" is to hand over as much money as they can extract.
Their role is to assist you in that to the maximum.

The legislation that you refer to is a proposal by them, so that they can continue on their merry way.

wylo

Rosstopher wrote: »

But my query was nothing to do with my control, I know I lost it. I just wanted to know the bookmakers responsibilities and if I had any grounds for complaint.

Ok, to answer your question. No unfortunately not. With the bookies they can do what they want. Set limits, get rid of limits, etc, etc. Its a cruel enough business but legally you have no grounds for complaint.

Much in the same way that if you incorrectly make a bet by mistake they arent obliged to refund/undo it. Some will do it however if its not in play.

However if they make an obvious error they CAN decide not to pay based on that.

Does any of this feel fair? Not really. But thats life. It's our responsibility to deal with these things when using bookies, or drinking alcohol, or doing anything that can potentially harm us if not done right. And I agree with that philosophy.

MarkY91

Why did you ignore their email? Why did you choose not to set your limit again? It's all your fault.

Rosstopher

MarkY91 wrote: »

Why did you ignore their email? Why did you choose not to set your limit again? It's all your fault.

Another one missing the point. It’s nothing to do with the the ignorance of the email.

If I had saw the email and thought to myself “ wow I have unlimited gambling immediately on this site right now I’m gonna bet loads .. ” the question I have would still be the exact same.

Rosstopher

bucketybuck wrote: »

Holding details is not the same as enforcing agreements made under old terms and conditions.

Once those terms and conditions changed the only option the company had was to inform you and allow you the opportunity to make new arrangements. They did this.

Any completely ignore the fact that somebody flagged a gambling problem, set a measure to control it and immediately give them access without that control?

rgace

The gambling industry pretends to he interested in promoting responsible gambling but actually makes large amounts of money from problem gamblers.
This is clearly very bad practice from the company but was likely thought up as a way of getting people to gamble more which is all they are really interested in.

I hope you learn from this OP and make a real attempt at stopping gambling altogether.

Rosstopher

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Make the complaint op. People get high and mighty on the Internet. You are trying to deal with your addiction and set the limits and they were taken away..
Yes you are responsible for your own actions but maybe a complaint will change the way they do things in the future.

Cheers mate

I think people are getting the wrong end of the stick here, they probably don’t grasp that the limit WAS me trying to control the issue. And obviously I showed lack of control and don’t feel great about it (not that it means much l, but it wasn’t a whole lot of money I lost, it’s mainly the principle I have an issue with). They dropped my guard for me, I could have been at a weak point and all of a sudden I find out my account is unlimited immediately, having previously flagged an issue. Doesn’t seem right to me. I’m sure they caught many an problemmed gambler with it.

bucketybuck

Rosstopher wrote: »

Any completely ignore the fact that somebody flagged a gambling problem, set a measure to control it and immediately give them access without that control?

They didn't ignore that fact at all. If they cannot unilaterally apply old agreements to new terms and conditions then I repeat, it is you that needed to reapply the limits. All they can do is inform you of this, which they did. The only one who ignored something was you.

And even if they could have unilaterally put the old limits back on your account despite the new T+C's well lets just be honest here, you aren't that important.

When they reset their entire terms and conditions it probably reset agreements for tens of thousands of people, did you think they were going to look at each individual account and make decisions on who was at risk of losing control or not? Of course they aren't.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder to be quite honest but this isn't on them, its on you. Good luck.

SusieBlue

Sorry OP but you are the consumer here, you are an adult, and if you want to avail of a service under specific terms you need to let the supplier/producer (in this case, the Bookies) know that. It is up to you to clarify and confirm these terms.
It is your responsibility to do this.
It was the suppliers obligation and responsibility to let you know of the change in their terms of service, which they did. It was your decision to ignore this. If they hadn't informed you at all I'd understand why you might be annoyed, but they couldn't have done any more than they did.
This is your own fault and I don't think you have any grounds to be complaining.

weldoninhio

Rosstopher wrote: »

No offense but this obviously wasn’t the right place to come. Lots of self righteous people who don’t know much about responsible gambling legislation.

Mods you can close this thread if you want. No need for anymore pointless answers.

There is no self righteousness that I can see. I think you hoped to come online, the bookies would be the bad guy and you’d get to feel better about your slip up. However this is the real world.

99 Bortles of Beer

How did you realise your limit had been removed?

I have a daily limit on my account, and it never occurs to me to even try and deposit more than that amount because I know it won't work.

What prompted you to try deposit more than the limit you had become accustomed to?

CalamariFritti

I'm not trying to be patronising. In fact I went through a phase myself where I gambled too much. Not with bookies but still the same thing.

If you need to limit your spending like that then you're obviously losing. No shame in that, practically everyone is. But try to think what you're getting out of it when you're actually consistently losing. Is the odd buzz worth dropping hundreds every month?

In the hard cold light of the day you're not 'having a flutter' (terribly belittling betting ad speak btw, don't fall for that sh1te). You're leaking money. Serious amounts.