Petrol vs Diesel

Pronto63

Looking at replacing the main family car. Not really looking for advice on model - thinking Audi A4/A5 possibly a Passat.
Budget approx €20k / year 2014ish.

The big question is petrol or diesel?
Daily commute is 11km / 7 miles each way (lucky I know!). This journey takes 30 min so the traffic is slow enough. Rounding up the daily to commute to 25k per day and multiplying by 6 days gives us a weekly useage of approx 150km.

This would increase a little during the summer as we have a holiday home (200km round trip) that we would use most weekends during May-Sept.

Avg per year just under 15,000km p/yr

I suppose I have a couple of questions:

1. Am I right in supposing that diesel wouldn't be the most economical choice with this type of mileage?

2. I've heard that diesels must heat up to run efficiently - is the daily commute going to cause technical/servicing issues?

3. Diesels seem to have lost favour somewhat with the powers that be. Are diesel owners likely to get hit with a "dirty" tax of some kind in the near future. I'm thinking re-sale value in 4-5 years time.

Apologies for rambling post but we're thinking about switching to our first diesel and just want to make the right decision.

Doddles88

In my opinion you don't need a diesel. Your short daily commute combined with the stop/start nature of driving in traffic is not ideal for it. The one suggestion I would make is about getting an automatic. It would make the driving in traffic far more bearable.

ABC101

IMO a diesel would not be suitable for this type of usage. Better go for a Toyota Prius or other hybrid / EV.

You could go for a diesel, but don't be surprised when big expensive repair bills come knocking.

Pronto63

ABC101 wrote: »

IMO a diesel would not be suitable for this type of usage. Better go for a Toyota Prius or other hybrid / EV.

You could go for a diesel, but don't be surprised when big expensive repair bills come knocking.

Expensive repair bills. Why?

ABC101

Pronto63 wrote: »

Expensive repair bills. Why?

The forum is littered with threads about blocked DPF filters and how expensive they are to replace etc.

Pronto63

ABC101 wrote: »

The forum is littered with threads about blocked DPF filters and how expensive they are to replace etc.

Ta
I'll do a search.

bazz26

OP, have you been living under a rock for the last 10 years or so?

colm_mcm

IS300h if it’s big enough. €20k goes a long way in Lexus Belfast

Idbatterim

worth goign electric? would only need to charge once per week if not doing long run. When you do a long run, it would cost virtually nothing in electricity

ABC101

ABC101 wrote: »

The forum is littered with threads about blocked DPF filters and how expensive they are to replace etc.

These issues have been ironed out for the most part. Earlier dpfs were an issue but not anymore. Once the op does a long drive reasonably regularly (which he does) there is nothing wrong with using any diesel in traffic day to day also.

thierry14

colm_mcm wrote: »

IS300h if it’s big enough. €20k goes a long way in Lexus Belfast

Interesting car

Looks a great deal to me

Powerful, good looking, Toyota reliability

XsApollo

Is300h would be the one.
Lovely drive.

allthedoyles

We have a Peugeot 308 Diesel 1.6 and never had issues with dpf . Most economical car we ever owned .

A car I would suggest is the Ford Focus 1.6 TDCI -

cros13

Go electric. A 142 or 151 BMW i3 is in your budget.
I do a daily commute of 200km in an i3 so you'll be grand.

It's also one of the best driver's cars on the market, BMW steering, low center of gravity and instant acceleration.

Also a bigger cabin and more comfort than the A4. Only big issue is that it's a strict four seater.

TigerTim

Damian Muscular Archivist wrote: »

These issues have been ironed out for the most part. Earlier dpfs were an issue but not anymore. Once the op does a long drive reasonably regularly (which he does) there is nothing wrong with using any diesel in traffic day to day also.

Are the diesel additives that apparently help to clean the DPF any good if you do mainly city driving. The magic bottle !!. I'm a bit sceptical of them.

T.

The_Honeybadger

colm_mcm wrote: »

IS300h if it’s big enough. €20k goes a long way in Lexus Belfast

I was looking at them on CarsIreland and some of the dealers are claiming 60mpg +. Looks too good to be true, can they really achieve this?

It’s a stunning car, one I am considering

Wailin

cros13 wrote: »

Go electric. A 142 or 151 BMW i3 is in your budget.
I do a daily commute of 200km in an i3 so you'll be grand.

It's also one of the best driver's cars on the market, BMW steering, low center of gravity and instant acceleration.

Also a bigger cabin and more comfort than the A4. Only big issue is that it's a strict four seater.

Yes but it's a bloody ugly yoke altogether like all hybrids/electrics!

cros13

Wailin wrote: »

Yes but it's a bloody ugly yoke altogether like all hybrids/electrics!

Generally a test drive changes most people's opinions.

I didn't like the exterior when I bought mine but I love the way it drove.

The i3 is the best city car ever made. period.

Lantus

Wailin wrote:

Yes but it's a bloody ugly yoke altogether like all hybrids/electrics!

Being honest we spend 99%of our time inside a car. The internal environment and it's relative performance should be the critical factors!

celtic_oz

https://www.cargiant.co.uk/car/audi/a4/DE15EZB

2015 36K miles A4 £15K STG

https://www.cargiant.co.uk/car/volkswagen/passat/GJ15LWP

2015 36K miles Passat £10K STG

https://www.cargiant.co.uk/car/mercedes/b180/KD16YWL

2016 24K miles Mercedes B180 £13K

Markcheese

Getting back to the ops question, petrol or diesel... Would he struggle to find a petrol passat / a4,? Wasn't that the height of diesel mania....
( I'd look at the Prius or the leaf)

blade1

mickeyk wrote: »

I was looking at them on CarsIreland and some of the dealers are claiming 60mpg +. Looks too good to be true, can they really achieve this?

It’s a stunning car, one I am considering

60mpg :pac::pac::pac::pac:

I've tried my hardest just to see if I could achieve anything close to those figures and couldn't.
Around 44mpg is the best I could manage on motorways and mid to high 30s in built up areas.
That's pretty good still in my eyes and should not deter you.
Gearbox is a bit weird and instead of instant power down its more gradual.
Everyone won't be mad about the gearbox and and some (on here :pac:)hate the looks but every one I have left drive my one rave about it.
I've had men and women on the street come up to me wanting to sit in and check it out.
So a load of positive feedback but as I said, won't be to everyones taste.
Take one for a spin,I reckon you'll more than likely love it.

NIMAN

Long term, do we see petrol being incentivized to get people away from diesel, or will it be more a case of diesel being taxed more to discourage its use?

Heebie

I love my Toyota Auris hybrid.
Every Lexus is hybrid by default, save the ones that cost six figures, if you're looking for something fancier.
Several of the Toyota models are available as hybrid as well.

cros13

NIMAN wrote: »

Long term, do we see petrol being incentivized to get people away from diesel, or will it be more a case of diesel being taxed more to discourage its use?

Both will need to be taxed more. It's six of one and a half dozen of the other which gets the worst of the stick.

bazz26

Electric vehicles won't be cheap to run forever. The more people take them up and move away from ICE the Government will need to move their revenue stream from ICE to EV also to compensate. The Government gets x amount from the motorist to contribute to public spending. This won't just dry up when everyone starts buying EVs so enjoy it for as long it lasts.

Markcheese

bazz26 wrote:

Electric vehicles won't be cheap to run forever. The more people take them up and move away from ICE the Government will need to move their revenue stream from ICE to EV also to compensate. The Government gets x amount from the motorist to contribute to public spending. This won't just dry up when everyone starts buying EVs so enjoy it for as long it lasts.

If some of the predictions are right it all be uber and car sharing, from about 5 years on anyway...😀

rabbitinlights

I was in a very similar position to you this time last year, ended up getting a diesel BMW in the UK. - I've done 17k km so far, primarily city and then drives to Galway/Clare every 3-4 weeks.

No big deal with the short city trips as long as you have the odd long road trip, mine has a DPF regen feature and seems to do the trick.

I had petrol for 8+ years before this and the saving for me is very noticeable, especially on the long trips.

NIMAN

rabbitinlights wrote: »

I was in a very similar position to you this time last year, ended up getting a diesel BMW in the UK. - I've done 17k km so far, primarily city and then drives to Galway/Clare every 3-4 weeks.

No big deal with the short city trips as long as you have the odd long road trip, mine has a DPF regen feature and seems to do the trick.

I had petrol for 8+ years before this and the saving for me is very noticeable, especially on the long trips.

Diesel will definitely save you in fuel costs, but I'd much rather have parts fail in a petrol car than a diesel.....there can be massive differences.

cros13

bazz26 wrote: »

Electric vehicles won't be cheap to run forever.

Oh yeah they will.

The majority of the difference in running costs is down to the ridiculously high efficiency of EVs. The latest Prius powertrain is 40% efficient under ideal conditions in the lab, the i3's motor is 93-97% efficient depending on the RPM (independent testing, 2015 - Oak Ridge National Lab).

If every car on the road was an EV today and the same combined tax take from excise/VAT/higher motor tax was applied to EVs the fuel costs alone would still more than halve per km driven.

bazz26

There is nothing to say that they will stick with the current tax rules regarding vehicles. They will just create and apply tax rules to suit the circumstances and they will get their pound of flesh either way. Vehicles ownership has never been cheap in this country and I just don't see it changing with the roll out of EVs.

Lantus

cros13 wrote:

Oh yeah they will.

In the short term yes. If the majority of all drivers shift to electric revenue will re focus tax to ensure income is maintained. Motor tax income is 5 billion. Quite a few public services.

Aside from a separate meter for the car there is talk of tax per km driven and by type of road.

unkel

It's impossible to put an extra charge on the electricity for EVs, because it is impossible for the state to find out what you are using your home electricity for. Your hoover, your kettle, your electric shower or your electric car? Agreed that the lost revenue from declining diesel / petrol sales must be made up from somewhere. Most likely from increasing the taxes on diesel / petrol and / or from tax per km driven. The former is far easier to implement. Guess which of the two is more likely to happen?

The current extremely generous subsidy of €10,000 for anyone buying a new EV will disappear soon enough though. The free install of a EV charger at your home for anyone buying a new EV is already gone. I say thanks to you all of you for giving them to me though

Leonard Hofstadter

They'll definitely get more money off people before long. Only reason they're cheap to run now is because they're still a minority interest amongst the general buying public and because of perceived green kudos (apparently the energy used to create a car doesn't count as 'pollution' at all).

They'll definitely bump up the VRT eventually once there is enough of an uptake, and if that doesn't redress the balance they could always bring in road pricing on the basis that cars which are much cheaper to run than ICE will mean they will be used more often, and more use means more cars on the road, and more cars on the road means more congestion etc. They'll be able to make their money back that way pretty quickly. Or else just bring in congestion charges like they have in London.

Either way, the hard pressed motorist will continue to be bled dry by this and any subsequent Government - after all if we want all these public services we say we want for free, we've got to pay for them somehow - so even if they don't get their money back from motorists they'll just find another way of taxing us anyway.

Tuco88

unkel wrote: »

It's impossible to put an extra charge on the electricity for EVs, because it is impossible for the state to find out what you are using your home electricity for. Your hoover, your kettle, your electric shower or your electric car? Agreed that the lost revenue from declining diesel / petrol sales must be made up from somewhere. Most likely from increasing the taxes on diesel / petrol and / or from tax per km driven. The former is far easier to implement. Guess which of the two is more likely to happen?

The current extremely generous subsidy of €10,000 for anyone buying a new EV will disappear soon enough though. The free install of a EV charger at your home for anyone buying a new EV is already gone. I say thanks to you all of you for giving them to me though

Im sure the ESB are delighted to introduce extra loads upon there already stressed grid in the foreseeable future.

Im sure a nice increase in the night rate will do.

bazz26

They could always maybe introduce a higher standing charge on your electric bill to cover miscellaneous charging such as EV charging, of course they could call it something else for those who don't own an EV. Similar to changing the TV license to a Broadcasting license and getting Revenue to collect it. They can be quite creative when they need to be.

cros13

Lantus wrote: »

In the short term yes. If the majority of all drivers shift to electric revenue will re focus tax to ensure income is maintained. Motor tax income is 5 billion. Quite a few public services.

Aside from a separate meter for the car there is talk of tax per km driven and by type of road.

I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick there. I'm counting that revenue.

What happens is the 9-10 billion euro per year we pay as a country (largely to UK suppliers) for liquid petroleum based fuels goes away, replaced by domestically produced electricity that EVs use very efficiently (and much of that electricity we either already produce (or curtail production of) or that has a very low marginal cost to increase production of.
And then on top of that EVs use energy very efficiently (super efficient motors, high round trip efficiency for batteries, regenerative braking, no efficiency loss for part-throttle conditions, no energy consumption from idling, reduced mechanical losses due to less powertrain complexity)

Only about half of the retail combustion fuel price is tax.
Road pricing is definitely something TII has looked at. But when it eventually comes in it won't just apply to EVs, it will apply to combustion cars as well as an additional tax.

Anyway... we're getting way OT. I'm just saying EV is a good option for the OP (even though their low annual mileage may not usually justify an EV) and that there are good options in the price range.

unkel

There's a lot of misunderstanding about electricity and electric cars in this country. Even in this thread. I'll just address this one here:

Tuco88 wrote: »

Im sure the ESB are delighted to introduce extra loads upon there already stressed grid in the foreseeable future.

Im sure a nice increase in the night rate will do.

Night rate is very likely to go down, not up. Even with a huge uptake of EV cars, it will be beneficial for the electricity providers to sell more night time electricity which is extremely cheap for them to produce (even now). We have far more wind electricity than people realise. When the wind blows hard at night, a lot of this is going to waste at the moment. Even getting a tiny reward for it (like 2 or 3 cent per kWh) would benefit the providers

Day rates in the early parts of the day are also likely to go down in the near future when solar PV will be added to the grid.

Peak time rates will go up. All of these will bring costs to charge electric cars down. Not up.

NIMAN

Lets hope you're right Unkel.

Mooooo

unkel wrote: »

There's a lot of misunderstanding about electricity and electric cars in this country. Even in this thread. I'll just address this one here:



Night rate is very likely to go down, not up. Even with a huge uptake of EV cars, it will be beneficial for the electricity providers to sell more night time electricity which is extremely cheap for them to produce (even now). We have far more wind electricity than people realise. When the wind blows hard at night, a lot of this is going to waste at the moment. Even getting a tiny reward for it (like 2 or 3 cent per kWh) would benefit the providers

Day rates in the early parts of the day are also likely to go down in the near future when solar PV will be added to the grid.

Peak time rates will go up. All of these will bring costs to charge electric cars down. Not up.

Wouldn't be so sure on electricity costs going down as more renewable supplies come on stream. These are being supported by the state. Look at Germany as their renewables increased so too did the elec bill

Lantus

I don't see any technical difficulty with ESB metering the dedicated supply that runs to your ev power outlet separate to your house power.

Every home owner has their own petrol station with rates controllable by ESB and revenue to ensure tax income.

unkel

Lantus wrote: »

I don't see any technical difficulty with ESB metering the dedicated supply that runs to your ev power outlet separate to your house power.

Even if they could, you don't need this dedicated supply to charge your car. Any of the 100 million 240V sockets in this country will do there is no way for the government / ESB to find out if you are charging a car or not.

And even if electricity for everybody would go up, you can just stick a few PV panels on your roof. These are getting very cheap these days. And the only reason the whole country isn't plastered with them, is that we don't get paid for what we don't use (which is a lot). Charging a car or another large home attached battery would change all that.

Phil.x

Oh, have a test drive in the 1.5petrol Honda civic.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

Only about half of the retail combustion fuel price is tax.

But will soon be a lot more. We're going to be hit by a brick wall. Not tomorrow, but it won't be 10 years away either. It will happen.

"Watchdog urges huge hikes on gas, petrol, oil to protect climate" Ban on use of coal and turf to generate electricity or to heat your home

Linky

NIMAN

None of this is to 'protect the climate', its to geneerate more money.

If they really wanted to protect the climate, then they'd just ban huge fuel guzzling cars. But its better to tax them cos they know people will pay up.

NIMAN

None of this is to 'protect the climate', its to geneerate more money.

If they really wanted to protect the climate, then they'd just ban huge fuel guzzling cars. But its better to tax them cos they know people will pay up.

unkel

NIMAN wrote: »

None of this is to 'protect the climate', its to geneerate more money.

If they really wanted to protect the climate, then they'd just ban huge fuel guzzling cars. But its better to tax them cos they know people will pay up.

They'll be banned soon enough. Not banned outright, but taxed into non-existence. I'd say only classic very low miles per year fossil fuel cars will be around in 20 years time in most EU countries

NIMAN

Maybe here, but most of the USA is driving around in huge engined cars.
No point in a tiny player like Ireland trying to do their bit to protect the climate when the big players aren't.

unkel

Petrol though. Producing CO2 but at least not causing cancer like we do in Europe with our cities full of diesels.

Ush1

unkel wrote: »

It's impossible to put an extra charge on the electricity for EVs, because it is impossible for the state to find out what you are using your home electricity for. Your hoover, your kettle, your electric shower or your electric car? Agreed that the lost revenue from declining diesel / petrol sales must be made up from somewhere. Most likely from increasing the taxes on diesel / petrol and / or from tax per km driven. The former is far easier to implement. Guess which of the two is more likely to happen?

The current extremely generous subsidy of €10,000 for anyone buying a new EV will disappear soon enough though. The free install of a EV charger at your home for anyone buying a new EV is already gone. I say thanks to you all of you for giving them to me though

I thought the max grant was 5k.

unkel

€5k cash grant and a €5k discount on what is already the lowest VRT rate (14%), so basically free VRT if the car is worth up to €35k

Plus a free car charger installed at your home. And free nationwide public charging (32 counties). Lowest motor tax rate of €120 per year. Low insurance. Almost zero maintenance

I've spent about €10 in electricity for my first 10k km