Ioniq V I3 charging on DC.

This is the best comparison I can find based on my own experience.

What we're looking at here is the Kwh per time. I don't know whether this shows the Kwh delivered or total but anyway it's all we got to go with.


Ioniq. 18 mins 19.21 Kwh.



Ioniq. 25.33 mins 23.29 Kwh



At low soc, if I remember correctly about 24 ish % 63.97 Kw shown on the charger.

Ioniq Charging Power



I3 at it's highest charging speed 53 Kw around 70%



I3 23:48 Mins 19.37 Kwh

So the Ioniq is around 5 mins faster getting around 19 Kwh , not a big difference.

Either way they're both way faster than a 24 Kwh Leaf.

What I don't know is what way the cold effects the Ioniq, in theory it shouldn't effect the I3 as it warms the battery provided you have a depart timer set at least 4 hrs before the depart time.

Evd-Burner

What if the charger could deliver more power? I wonder what the difference would be then.

Evd-Burner

Evd-Burner wrote: »

What if the charger could deliver more power? I wonder what the difference would be then.

According to the below video no different, this raises another question, are our triple headed units 100 Kw capable ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb3gJ8fWW5g

n97 mini

Photos are huge. Will need to view on the desktop.

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

Photos are huge. Will need to view on the desktop.

Yeah didn't get a chance to edit them. Must make a point of taking lower resolution photos for forums.

liamog

Do you have a way to plug an OBDII into the I3 and capture some charging data?
Would be interesting to do a comparison on the charging that way.

I saw Midway read 62kW when the Ioniq was only receiving 45kW.

cros13

liamog wrote:

Do you have a way to plug an OBDII into the I3 and capture some charging data? Would be interesting to do a comparison on the charging that way.

While that data is exposed through the obd2 it's not quite done in a standard way that most (or so far as I can see..any) obd2 adapters support. The i3 is a lot less traditional even that far under the skin than the Leaf for example, using a mix of interconnects between onboard computers like FlexRay and industrial ethernet on top of the odd but of traditional CANBUS.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

I saw Midway read 62kW when the Ioniq was only receiving 45kW.

Yeah I remember you posting a screenshot of the Torque app, however I would not believe there is such a loss in efficiency so there is something not right with the data captured in my opinion of course.

If I remember correctly Leaf spy was showing about 10% loss which would be pretty efficient.

A 90% efficient charger would mean about 60 Kw should be going to the Ioniq battery or in your case 56 Kw where the I3 at 53 Kw would be dumping 47 Kw into the battery. The I3 is certainly a lot faster charging than the 24 Kwh leaf.

The Ioniq also charges faster than the I3, not a lot but it's still faster.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah I remember you posting a screenshot of the Torque app, however I would not believe there is such a loss in efficiency so there is something not right with the data captured in my opinion of course.

Charging time is the same as other Efacec units, and reported inputs to the car are the same as other Efacec units. The charging also matches the spec sheet for the model of the charger.

But you're still going to stick to Midway has a super mega awesome charger and that the data captured is wrong.

Don't be so defensive lol.

Then if only "around" 70% efficient the I3 was only receiving about 37 Kw max , not sure that adds up. The Leaf certainly showed nowhere near this kind of inefficiency charging.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

What we're looking at here is the Kwh per time.

A better measure to compare cars is range per time

unkel

unkel wrote: »

A better measure to compare cars is range per time

Indeed, I3 can go 30 mins further while you're enjoying a fast charge, oh and if someone is already charging I can drive up to an hour further and if a charger is down oh dear God while I can simply drive on haha ! :pac:

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't be so defensive lol.

Then if only "around" 70% efficient the I3 was only receiving about 37 Kw max , not sure that adds up. The Leaf certainly showed nowhere near this kind of inefficiency charging.

I think the point is that the readout on that rapid is incorrect. It shows a higher value being delivered on its kWh meter than what is actually happening.

So, its not a case of it being inefficient.... its just lying to start with. Its probably got the same efficiency as all the other rapids.... about 90% and the max they can deliver is about 45kW.... thats what they are spec'd for. I doubt there is an electron genie in there that it can somehow deliver 65kW's!

Maybe try another rapid and see what you get there. Then you'll know whether it is lying or not.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

A better measure to compare cars is range per time

That can't be measured consistently though! Each car, driver and route will give different values.

kWh can be measured easily.

The Fast charger I got the reading from was the Wicklow Town charger for the Ioniq and Ballinasloe for I3 but it's the same reported on all those chargers.

The charger is showing the Kwh consumed by the charger not delivered to the car, of course we all know that, but I don't believe it reads that much different for an Ioniq V Leaf V I3 etc the charger Kwh meter doesn't know the difference.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

That can't be measured consistently though! Each car, driver and route will give different values.

kWh can be measured easily.

You can if you use a generally accepted measure for range like the EPA range. But of course the actual consumption depends on the situation. The same as it has always been with petrol / diesel cars

It's very simple to measure Kwh delivered to the car with leaf spy, pity there's no alternative for any other EV ?

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't be so defensive lol.

Then if only "around" 70% efficient the I3 was only receiving about 37 Kw max , not sure that adds up. The Leaf certainly showed nowhere near this kind of inefficiency charging.

They're not 70% efficient, they're normally around 92/93%.
Midway is just faulty.

I'd love to see what it reads when you plug the I3 into it.

Leafspy is just a pretty interface for the same data Torque is pulling.
Afaic Leaf and Ioniq are both capable of reporting the true figures received into the battery.

Bu the point I'm making is that the Wicklow DC reported the same Kw pulled from the charger.

So why would they tell a different Kw for the Ioniq V the rest ? the can't because that would not make sense as the Kw reading on the charger is showing the total power being pulled from the mains.

That would mean only 37 Kw was going to the i3 if 45 is going to the Ioniq.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Bu the point I'm making is that the Wicklow DC reported the same Kw pulled from the charger.

So why would they tell a different Kw for the Ioniq V the rest ? the can't because that would not make sense as the Kw reading on the charger is showing the total power being pulled from the mains.

That would mean only 37 Kw was going to the i3 if 45 is going to the Ioniq.

The energy meter on the FCPs would be the most trustworthy source, There are good industry standard meters

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

The energy meter on the FCPs would be the most trustworthy source, There are good industry standard meters

+1 generally
I don't trust any of the third party apps as often they dont tally up the time spent, kWh taken, and speed displayed.

I'd believe the efacec units over a third party app any day.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

+1 generally
I don't trust any of the third party apps as often they dont tally up the time spent, kWh taken, and speed displayed.

I'd believe the efacec units over a third party app any day.

Energy In to the car as captured via the ECU and Energy Out from the Charger are too different measures.

I'm not claiming that the meter read on the charger is incorrect.

If the meter reads 65kW and a 28kWh car takes 26 mins to hit 80% and on the same model charger down the road, the meter reads 50kW and also takes 26 mins, that maybe there is a fault in the charger.

The meter is almost certainly being very accurate in terms of energy out.
The question is, where is the extra power going, because it sure isn't going into the car.

ELM327

But then that doesn't make sense either way. Because a) it shouldn't charge at the same speed of time but at a 15kW slower speed, and b) the energy reported as delivered by the charger can't just vanish either.

I guess I don't understand and, not having an Ioniq myself, can't really test it out.

unkel

I'm sorry now that the one time I charged there I wasn't paying attention (except that I noted the reported speed of something like 68kW that I took a picture of and posted in the Ioniq thread). The Leaf taxi man sneaked in just before me so I had to wait!

liamog

The spec sheet for the charger indicates it can supply up to 500V and 125A and is 96% efficient.

At the time of the screenshot the car was charging at 126A with a battery voltage of 363.4V. The indicated power was 45.8 kW.
That's really well aligned as 126*363.4 = 45.8kW.

The meter on the side of the charger indicated a power draw of 62.7kW.
I suspect the charger is supplying too high a voltage to the car.
The BMS is managing the voltage to ensure it matches the battery voltage.

The max I've seen on other Efacec's (the same model) is a meter read of just over 50kW. I suspect these are configured @ 400V.
To give an idea we'd see max meter reads of 126A*500V/0.96 = 65.6kW and 126*400V/0.96 = 52.5kW.
These numbers match my experience.

Could it be that for some reason, the charger is wasting the extra voltage as heat to match the voltage demands of the car?

If the charger was wasting 15 kW of heat you'd know all about it. A typical sauna is about 10 kW.

liamog

I'm open to ideas.

If it is heat it would be in the charger. I'm not sure I would notice it. I'm tend to sit in the car or the nearby coffee shop.
I'm not sitting on the charging unit with a toasty bum.

unkel

You would notice it from several feet away from the charger in any direction. 15kW is a lot of heat!

ELM327

15kW is not being wasted as heat, the plastic moulds on the FCP would be melted with a sustained 15kW heat.
I've had spaceheaters running less than 15kW and they heated a whole lockup unit back in the day.

KCross

The obvious answer to me is that that charger is not giving correct readings. I have always found LeafSpy and the meters on the rapid to match but clearly that rapid is different.

It seems a stretch to me that a rapid with a spec of 50kW max is somehow able to give 65kW!!

Therefore the meter is faulty or misconfigured or requires calibration or something like that.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

The obvious answer to me is that that charger is not giving correct readings. I have always found LeafSpy and the meters on the rapid to match but clearly that rapid is different.

It seems a stretch to me that a rapid with a spec of 50kW max is somehow able to give 65kW!!

Therefore the meter is faulty or misconfigured or requires calibration or something like that.

It's multiple units.
I've observed the >52kW readings at Naas, Blanch, Midway at least if not more.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

It's multiple units.
I've observed the >52kW readings at Naas, Blanch, Midway at least if not more.

That might be just another indicator of the rapids being in a poor state of repair.

Although, I could understand 52kW being displayed as that is within the margins of error. But, 65kW I have an issue believing.

liamog

Either the charger is running massively over spec (supplying 175A instead of the 125A it's rated for) or there is an issue somewhere.

At 125A, charging at up to 390V (the voltage at Ioniq Peak), and an efficiency of the 96%. The meter should read around 51kW.

I find it more likely that the meter is measuring 125A at 500V and 96% (65kW) and that due to either charger faults or an inefficient design the extra 110V is wasted.

I don't think all the charger Kw meters are wrong at all, they're showing total Kw consumed by the charger.

It could be a case whether these chargers are capable of more than 45-50 kw.

liamog

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't think all the charger Kw meters are wrong at all, they're showing total Kw consumed by the charger.

It could be a case whether these chargers are capable of more than 45-50 kw.

I'd be surprised. Especially considering the car charges at the same speed when the meter is reading 52 or 65.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think all the charger Kw meters are wrong at all, they're showing total Kw consumed by the charger.

It could be a case whether these chargers are capable of more than 45-50 kw.

Just not believable.

cros13 reported that midway showed 60kW on ChaDemo. Based on the charger spec, the Chademo protocol and the cars capabilities its not possible.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104541525&postcount=3852


The readings/calibration has to be wrong and maybe its the same issue on multiple chargers but trying to convince yourself that a 50kW charger is pulling 65kW is just clutching at straws in the absence of any other proof.


Your own test on the Ioniq was 23-90% in 25mins and you saw 68kW on the meter. Work the math on that... its actually 43kW (which matches liamog's tests), not 68kW as shown on the meter so where is the extra 25kW gone? The meter has to be wrong is the only thing that makes sense.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104537263&postcount=3848

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Just not believable.

cros13 reported that midway showed 60kW on ChaDemo. Based on the charger spec, the Chademo protocol and the cars capabilities its not possible.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104541525&postcount=3852


The readings/calibration has to be wrong and maybe its the same issue on multiple chargers but trying to convince yourself that a 50kW charger is pulling 65kW is just clutching at straws in the absence of any other proof.


Your own test on the Ioniq was 23-90% in 25mins and you saw 68kW on the meter. Work the math on that... its actually 43kW (which matches liamog's tests), not 68kW as shown on the meter so where is the extra 25kW gone? The meter has to be wrong is the only thing that makes sense.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104537263&postcount=3848

Chademo 1 protocol allows for 62.5kW (125a@500v)

liamog wrote: »

I'd be surprised. Especially considering the car charges at the same speed when the meter is reading 52 or 65.

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think all the charger Kw meters are wrong at all, they're showing total Kw consumed by the charger.

It could be a case whether these chargers are capable of more than 45-50 kw.

Agree with mad lad here, it could be a case that the charger thinks it's delivering 62kW but either the local grid, local unit or the actual charger hardware is not capable. That would explain the 62kW being displayed but the time test doesnt match up.

jeremy_g

KCross wrote: »

so where is the extra 25kW gone? The meter has to be wrong is the only thing that makes sense.[/url]

this will be a problem when we'll need to pay for the kW :eek:

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Chademo 1 protocol allows for 62.5kW (125a@500v)

You believe it is possible for a first gen Leaf to take more than 50kW? I think Nissan would beg to differ.

I just don't believe it. The readings being wrong are much more believable.

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree with mad lad here, it could be a case that the charger thinks it's delivering 62kW but either the local grid, local unit or the actual charger hardware is not capable. That would explain the 62kW being displayed but the time test doesnt match up.

I can't make sense of that. I think you are agreeing with me actually.... you are saying the charger "thinks" its pulling 65kW but in actual fact its not.... which is what I'm saying.

Its certainly not agreeing with mad_lad. He suggests that the charger is pulling 65kW and delivering it to the car minus the efficiency. See his last post.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

You believe it is possible for a first gen Leaf to take more than 50kW? I think Nissan would beg to differ.

I just don't believe it. The readings being wrong are much more believable.

Never mentioned anything about a leaf, or what the car could take at all.
What we're talking about is what the charger can deliver. And indeed, the limitations of the Chademo protocol which for the current gen is 62.5kW. (125a/500v I believe, although I am open to correction)

I have seen 52kW going into my leaf at Navan, and Midway. I verified the Navan one on Leafspy as correct. It was like the 5th charge of the day or something so the battery was at 7/8 bars.

KCross wrote: »

I can't make sense of that. I think you are agreeing with me actually.... you are saying the charger "thinks" its pulling 65kW but in actual fact its not.... which is what I'm saying.

Its certainly not agreeing with mad_lad. He suggests that the charger is pulling 65kW and delivering it to the car minus the efficiency. See his last post.

Perhaps I am agreeing with you, I didnt get that from Mad Lad's post though.
If the car takes the same time to charge when 52kW is indicated as when 62kW is indicated then the difference is obviously not going into the car.
So it does seem, indeed, that I am agreeing with you.

Right so we're clear here, no one agrees with me .

We know the Ioniq is capable of accepting 100 Kw even for a short time so it's highly plausible to accept that the chargers are capable of outputting more than 50 Kw peak and extra 8 Kw isn't huge.

Are these chargers QC 45's ? if so they have an excellent efficiency of 93% according to the manufacturers and an output of 50 Kw.

http://electricmobility.efacec.com/ev-qc45-quick-charger/

http://electricmobility.efacec.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/CS119I1307D1_QC45.pdf

So if consuming 63 Kw from the mains they must be outputting 58 Kw to the Ioniq. There's simply no other way to explain this, we know the Ioniq can accept over 50 Kw.

If the charger was pulling 53 Kw with the I3 then that means 49.29 Kw must be going to the battery as we know BMW state 50 Kw max for charging the I3 on DC and that adds up perfectly, though why the 50 Kw limit on a liquid cooled battery is beyond me, anyway that's another story.

Believe me or believe me not, the torque app is wrong.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Right so we're clear here, no one agrees with me .

We know the Ioniq is capable of accepting 100 Kw even for a short time so it's highly plausible to accept that the chargers are capable of outputting more than 50 Kw peak and extra 8 Kw isn't huge.

Are these chargers QC 45's ? if so they have an excellent efficiency of 93% according to the manufacturers and an output of 50 Kw.

http://electricmobility.efacec.com/ev-qc45-quick-charger/

http://electricmobility.efacec.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/CS119I1307D1_QC45.pdf

So if consuming 63 Kw from the mains they must be outputting 58 Kw to the Ioniq. There's simply no other way to explain this, we know the Ioniq can accept over 50 Kw.

If the charger was pulling 53 Kw with the I3 then that means 49.29 Kw must be going to the battery as we know BMW state 50 Kw max for charging the I3 on DC and that adds up perfectly, though why the 50 Kw limit on a liquid cooled battery is beyond me, anyway that's another story.

Believe me or believe me not, the torque app is wrong.

I amn't agreeing or disagreeing with you.
The other posters are claiming that the unit/software is faulty and displaying an incorrect number. You are saying the unit is right and the torque app is wrong . I somewhat agree with you here, in that the fault lies somewhere with the car, or after the charger and before the car.

Bjorn's review of the Ioniq charging at a 100kW capable station shows that the Ioniq can sustain a charge of 70kW. SO to expect it could be taking high 50's or low 60's is not implausible, again I'm agreeing with you here.

What I'm disagreeing with, and this is not something I can test as i don't have an Ioniq, is the timed tests where a user (possibly liamog??) did two timed tests one at a unit showing 52kW and one showing 62kW, and the charge took the same time. Therefore the car is only taking in ~52kW. I don't believe the energy is dissipated as heat (the plastic on the FCP unit would melt at a consistent 10kW heat), but my question - and I don't know the answer at this point - is where the 10kW is going. Hence why I was posturing that the charger was attempting to deliver 62kW but was restricted either by the local grid, by the hardware, or by the BMS in the car.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

I amn't agreeing or disagreeing with you.
The other posters are claiming that the unit/software is faulty and displaying an incorrect number. You are saying the unit is right and the torque app is wrong . I somewhat agree with you here, in that the fault lies somewhere with the car, or after the charger and before the car.

Bjorn's review of the Ioniq charging at a 100kW capable station shows that the Ioniq can sustain a charge of 70kW. SO to expect it could be taking high 50's or low 60's is not implausible, again I'm agreeing with you here.

What I'm disagreeing with, and this is not something I can test as i don't have an Ioniq, is the timed tests where a user (possibly liamog??) did two timed tests one at a unit showing 52kW and one showing 62kW, and the charge took the same time. Therefore the car is only taking in ~52kW. I don't believe the energy is dissipated as heat (the plastic on the FCP unit would melt at a consistent 10kW heat), but my question - and I don't know the answer at this point - is where the 10kW is going. Hence why I was posturing that the charger was attempting to deliver 62kW but was restricted either by the local grid, by the hardware, or by the BMS in the car.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
The Ioniq has been demonstrated to charge at 70kW on a 100kW charger.
I would be shocked to see the Ioniq charging at 70kW on a 50kW rated charger.

As far as I'm aware the BMS is meant to tell the charger what current and what voltage to supply.
I believe the gap here is that Ioniq is sometimes being incorrectly supplied with 500V. This would tally the numbers so far seen. The BMS can't push the extra voltage into the battery so it goes somewhere else.

I'm not sure why Mad_Lad believes that Torque is inaccurate, it's just a data logger from the ECU so effectivly he's suggesting that the ECU is lying. Leafspy is using the same access.

Power into the charger and Power into the battery are two different but usually related numbers. I'm of the opinion that there is a charger fault. The fault being the supplied voltage and not the measured energy. The fault lies somewhere between the negotiation process with the car and charger.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

I somewhat agree with you here, in that the fault lies somewhere with the car, or after the charger and before the car.

There is no issue with the car, charger etc, it's the torque app.

ELM327 wrote: »

Bjorn's review of the Ioniq charging at a 100kW capable station shows that the Ioniq can sustain a charge of 70kW. SO to expect it could be taking high 50's or low 60's is not implausible, again I'm agreeing with you here.

Was he seeing the total consumption or that being sent to the car though ? I saw the video also.

What I'm disagreeing with, and this is not something I can test as i don't have an Ioniq, is the timed tests where a user (possibly liamog??) did two timed tests one at a unit showing 52kW and one showing 62kW, and the charge took the same time. Therefore the car is only taking in ~52kW. I don't believe the energy is dissipated as heat (the plastic on the FCP unit would melt at a consistent 10kW heat), but my question - and I don't know the answer at this point - is where the 10kW is going. Hence why I was posturing that the charger was attempting to deliver 62kW but was restricted either by the local grid, by the hardware, or by the BMS in the car.[/QUOTE]

It could be , in fact , highly possible where the battery was at different temps.

There is no 10 Kw loss, the charger is 92% efficient , so there is a loss of 7% between the input of the charger ( the mains input ) and the plug of the output of the charger, again, any difference in charging speed is most likely due to the temperature of the battery without this data you can't really give any accurate indication.

So again, if the charger is showing a total consumption of 63 Kw then there is 58 Kw going to the battery.

The I3 showed 53 Kw = 49.29 Kw to the battery, but , they were different chargers but the same model so I doubt there will be much difference.

At that rate of efficiency the charger has to dissipate about 5 Kw at 63 kw input and 4 Kw for 49.29 Kw a few fans and a good heatsink and this is no problem especially in colder weather.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
The Ioniq has been demonstrated to charge at 70kW on a 100kW charger.
I would be shocked to see the Ioniq charging at 70kW on a 50kW rated charger.

Who on Earth said there's 70 Kw going to the battery on a 50 Kw charger ?

Think about it, if the charger is 93% efficient and for a consumption of 63 Kw then there's a fraction over 58 Kw going to the battery.

The charger can deal with demands of 50-500 Volts. No issue there.

liamog

I've seen a couple of spec sheets indicating the QC45 is either 93% or 96% efficient.

Let's think of the possible options.
Either the Ioniq ECU is reporting a charging power of up to 50kW on a charger who's spec sheet indicates it's capable of DC Charging at 50kW.
Charger input meter should read ~53.76kW (93% efficient) or ~52.08kW (96% efficient)

Or option two, Efacec have lied on the spec sheet and the Ioniq ECU is lying to under report the charging power.
If the meter read was 65kW then your claim is that Ioniq is charging at 62.4kW or 60.45kW.

You really believe that both the ECU and the charger manufacturer are under reporting the charge rates?

If we really are in a world where the charger and the ECU are conspiring to charge the car quicker, there should be 4 minutes less charging time.

I'm saying that the torque app is wrong.

The charger isn't lying, the sums add up for the i3 based on 93% efficiency claim, 53 Kw from the mains, 49 Kw to the i3, BMW claim 50 Kw charging capability.

63 from the mains and 58 Kw to the Ioniq is entirely plausible considering we know the Ioniq , according to the manufacturer, is cable of taking more than 50 Kw.

It would mean the QC 45 charger is outputting more than 50 Kw.

Right, I've emailed efacec, hopefully they can put this matter to bed.

liamog

You're going for the ECU is wrong. The manufacturer of the charger is underselling, and two chargers with two different meter readings charge the car in the same time option.
In an effort to claim that the Ioniq that you drove that one time charges faster than people who have owned it for more than a year believe.

Let's not forget, one of those same chargers reported 60kW output when charging a car that only supports 50kW CHAdeMO.
All justified by the fact that you charged the I3 and saw the charger using the expected amount of power.

Lol back to your only defence now that I'm not an Ioniq owner what would I know, oh please !