Bi-Mode Trains for DART Expansion?

Seanmk1

Interesting article here.

IRISH Rail (IE) is in talks with Ireland’s National Transport Authority (NTA) on the acquisition of a fleet of electro-diesel trains to enable the extension of Dublin Area Rapid Transit (Dart) services to stations beyond the capital’s electrified suburban network.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/irish-rail-plans-bi-mode-train-order-for-dart-expansion.html?channel=529

end of the road

in the long run it would be best (and probably cheaper) to electrify instead.
being honest though, i doubt we will get either bi-mode or further electrification.

MGWR

Seanmk1 wrote: »

Interesting article here.

IRISH Rail (IE) is in talks with Ireland’s National Transport Authority (NTA) on the acquisition of a fleet of electro-diesel trains to enable the extension of Dublin Area Rapid Transit (DART) services to stations beyond the capital’s electrified suburban network.

Irish Rail plans bi-mode train order for DART expansion –
International Railway Journal

The only practical reason for "electro-diesel" operations is to run a service into underground railways where ventilation is restricted and you cannot operate a diesel engine; also for mitigation of higher risk of fire in such enclosed railways. Other than that, such a thing is merely a bigger drain on resources and an increase in maintenance costs, not to mention shorter distances between failure of equipment.

There are DMU services that currently run directly between Maynooth and Bray, albeit on a limited basis. These "electro-diesel" beasts will eventually turn into full-time EMU or DMU rather than both at the same time.

Just an excuse to scrap further electrification plans. Nothing will come of this.

Isambard

the only practical reason? well they are doing just this in the Uk currently.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

the only practical reason? well they are doing just this in the Uk currently.

indeed.
what annoys me is the uk could have had most, if not all of the network that is viable to electrify, electrified by now had they put their minds to it. they wasted the opportunity.
we should not make the same mistake, we don't have to make the same mistake, but we will.

L1011

There *are* bi-mode MU families available that can do both 1500v DC and diesel but that doesn't mean we're obliged to buy them. If we had much cheaper, renewable or nuclear base load electricity it might make sense to swap the long distance diesels to electric when under wires; but money should be spent on electrification and pure EMUs instead.

GM228

This project is something likely to happen with the procurement process to start in 2018. The NTA have so far only approved IEs investigation into the matter, funding etc is still to be discussed.

It is odd that this is likely to happen before the ICR centre car project (which it would appear is on the back burner) considering that the centre car project was recommended under the Rail Review 2016 and prior to this summer the bi-mode project (which internally is dubbed incorrectly as the DEMU Project) was not even conceived.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

This project is something likely to happen with the procurement process to start in 2018. The NTA have so far only approved IEs investigation into the matter, funding etc is still to be discussed.

It is odd that this is likely to happen before the ICR centre car project (which it would appear is on the back burner) considering that the centre car project was recommended under the Rail Review 2016 and prior to this summer the bi-mode project (which internally is dubbed incorrectly as the DEMU Project) was not even conceived.

Well I am sure IE can cope for a few more years, if this project got off the ground fairly quickly (4 years stated( you would be able to remove most of the ICRs in Connolly back to Heuston with M3/Maynooth/N Commuter and there would be no real need for ICR order.

patrickbrophy18

It is certainly an obvious solution until the electrification of the Maynooth and Balbriggan is complete. I am thrilled that this is underway. It could potentially allow for an increase in frequency to the Dundalk, Sligo, Waterford, Galway and Rosslare routes given that they could continue as diesel trains beyond the current electrified network. Whether or not this would require them to run as limited stop services on the DART sections is open for debate. Nevertheless, it is a very sensible short-term solution given the possibilities it opens up.

As a prototype, they could always couple the current DART fleet with the Commuter fleet to test this out. Unless, would the fleet of DMU 29000s be a huge weight to haul for the EMU fleet?

If so, a hybrid fleet such as the Bi-Mode trains would be an excellent solution!

MGWR

Isambard wrote: »

The only practical reason? Well they are doing just this in the UK currently.

Doesn't make it practical. A lot of UK railways have been tolerant of higher maintenance costs, and those tolerances did not go down with the advent of BR or the partial reversal of nationalisation.

If it is the Southern Railway dual-system trains being referred to, then things would have been (and be) better and cheaper in the long run by completing the electrification. Same with any dreams of dual-system operation in Ireland. Thermodynamics, and thus costs and reliability, are simply against long-term operation of this kind of thing.

MGWR

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It is certainly an obvious solution until the electrification of the Maynooth and Balbriggan is complete. I am thrilled that this is underway. It could potentially allow for an increase in frequency to the Dundalk, Sligo, Waterford, Galway and Rosslare routes given that they could continue as diesel trains beyond the current electrified network. Whether or not this would require them to run as limited stop services on the DART sections is open for debate. Nevertheless, it is a very sensible short-term solution given the possibilities it opens up.

As a prototype, they could always couple the current DART fleet with the Commuter fleet to test this out. Unless, would the fleet of DMU 29000s be a huge weight to haul for the EMU fleet?

If so, a hybrid fleet such as the Bi-Mode trains would be an excellent solution!

Solution to what? There are no parts of the network where the DMUs cannot operate. If such "solutions" are being spoken of, then electrification is not coming, full stop. And things will revert to diesel-only under the wire once they new "solution" trains break down permanently.

Isambard

MGWR wrote: »

Doesn't make it practical. A lot of UK railways have been tolerant of higher maintenance costs, and those tolerances did not go down with the advent of BR or the partial reversal of nationalisation.

If it is the Southern Railway dual-system trains being referred to, then things would have been (and be) better and cheaper in the long run by completing the electrification. Same with any dreams of dual-system operation in Ireland. Thermodynamics, and thus costs and reliability, are simply against long-term operation of this kind of thing.

The southern system was put in during the 1960s (by BR(SR) ), I'm taking about the gWr trains soon to be running the western extremities of the electrification programme, including I beleive Bristol and Cardiff astonishingly. I actually believe the first service on this system ran about a week or so ago.

dublinman1990

The only thing that I would say to IÉ is that if they want to buy these new trains is this.

1) Don't go overboard on the NTA's budget while buying them as they are expensive.

2) Get them from a reputable brand that comes with the best value for covering overall maintenance costs & best overall track mileage & reliability.

If IÉ do find someone to make these new trains for the DART Expansion; well hurrah as it could be a miracle for all of Dublin's rail commuter. But if the government or the NTA cannot let this proposal go ahead; then they haven't got many avenues to explore afterwards if IÉ are left in the lurch & they will have no other option by sticking to buy solely electric trains for the DART's long term future.

I do believe that the other part of their plan to get rid of the older LHB DART rolling stock from 1984 is very foolish as the stock can be quite easily maintained to have bi mode function. This can be included for very cheap money so they can run on both overground & underground lines to make them run similar to it's cousin over on the subway in Berlin.

Seanmk1

Actually, the acceleration of the class 800 bi-mode is impressive:

XPS_Zero

Something confuses me here....

The idea is they will be a stop gap if electrification does not proceed...but the people who will decide this (NTA, IE, Govt minister) are, surely (?) the exact same people who would have to approve the electrification?

So arent they in effect saying "in case I'm lying right now, and I really have no plans to do electrification" or "I'm prepping this in case, as usual, this govt won't bother investing more in public transport"

MGWR

Seanmk1 wrote: »

Actually, the acceleration of the class 800 bi-mode is impressive:

Acceleration is one factor, and not one of consideration with respect to distance between failures and overall maintenance costs. The Class 800 is only a few months in service at time of writing, further; this is a shot in the dark. Not to mention, no increase over the four-decade-old benchmark of 125 mph top speed is achieved. Unless full electrification will ensue and the 800s become 801s, the 800s will by dint of thermodynamics revert to diesel only.

Isambard

suddenly you're an expert on bi-modal.....

MGWR

Isambard wrote: »

suddenly you're an expert on bi-modal.....

No need for the argumentum ad lapidem. There is just a long history of bi-mode, and it carries inherent expenses that are not mitigated by the intended service.

New York City in particular has been an on-going experiment in bi-modal passenger train operation for over a half-century. There has been (most famously, or infamously) the General Motors FL-9, which started as the New Haven Railroad's EDER-5 and subsequently was bequeathed to Amtrak and the New York's MTA, undergoing several rebuilds over its troublesome 50 years of operation; it was built with its unusual Bo-A1A wheel arrangement due to carrying a boiler for steam heat, and that was used to accommodate a donkey engine for head end power in later configurations, the final and least-enduring version being the FL-9AC with a 710 engine putting out 3,000 horses. Other contemporary bi-mode diesels were on the short-lived Talgo-based "John Quincy Adams/Speed Merchant" of the New Haven, featuring bi-mode versions of the Fairbanks-Morse P-12-42 locomotive.

As far as modern locomotives go, Amtrak and Metro-North Railroad operate General Electric's P32AC-DM "Genesis II", the Long Island Rail Road operates the Super Steel/General Motors DM30AC (as much as possible), and New Jersey Transit and Montreal's AMT have the unusual Bombardier Traxx derivative that they call the ALP-45DP; while all of the previous examples operate from DC third rail (originally 600 V and later 750 V), NJ Transit's one is the only type to operate on AC-powered overhead wire (either 11 kV 25 Hz or 25 kV 60 Hz).

There were even bi-mode railcars. New Haven had the unique "Roger Williams" RDC cars which, although the RDC was diesel-hydraulic, included extra traction motor/third-rail equipment to run into Grand Central Terminal. The Long Island had gas-turbine bi-mode railcars based on the Budd "M1" metropolitan design, in the 1970s.

Thermodynamics are just against bi-mode; and unless there's a genuine need (such as in New York), the long-term expense is not worth it versus staying with all-diesel or electrifying outright.

GM228

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Something confuses me here....

The idea is they will be a stop gap if electrification does not proceed...but the people who will decide this (NTA, IE, Govt minister) are, surely (?) the exact same people who would have to approve the electrification?

So arent they in effect saying "in case I'm lying right now, and I really have no plans to do electrification" or "I'm prepping this in case, as usual, this govt won't bother investing more in public transport"

The NTA approved electrification to Maynooth and the Northern Line last month with design work to re-commence next year and expected to be operational around 2023.

Infini

GM228 wrote: »

The NTA approved electrification to Maynooth and the Northern Line last month with design work to re-commence next year and expected to be operational around 2023.

Electrification in 6 years? That would be impressive though if they follow through with it. Maybe a new Dart depot on the M3 spur too? Would be an ideal spot and location for one.

Jamie2k9

Infini wrote: »

Electrification in 6 years? That would be impressive though if they follow through with it. Maybe a new Dart depot on the M3 spur too? Would be an ideal spot and location for one.

Well, 3 years should be more than enough to do the construction. It's not exactly a massive stretch of track. The hardest work is done with existing DART.

I would expect Drogheda will be expanded, after all a lot of current stock will be moved out once electrification is complete.

I'm more interested to see what stock they will go for and if they will follow a lot of UK companies in operating 8 car sets where you can walk through the full train and maximize space for standing.

goingnowhere

Seanmk1 wrote: »

Actually, the acceleration of the class 800 bi-mode is impressive:

Uo to about 50mph the 800 wins and this is down to the multiple distributed traction motors so its quick off the line but the laws of physics come into play as you speed up.

Try the race again between 50 and 125 and the HST kicks its ass

Bi mode is always a compromise and really is the politicians solution to avoid committing to anything

GM228

Infini wrote: »

Electrification in 6 years? That would be impressive though if they follow through with it. Maybe a new Dart depot on the M3 spur too? Would be an ideal spot and location for one.

Yes 2023 is the estimate with building work expected to commence in 2021. Have a look at the NTA letter to Joan Burton.

https://twitter.com/joanburton/status/936253536916123649

GM228

Some more info on the project (proposals for the forthcoming National Investment Plan review):-

Initial order of 25 4-car bi-mode sets.

Bi-mode depot West of Maynooth.

Electrification of Maynooth line and closure of more level crossings (unspecified).

L1011

Bi-mode is a stupid idea. Just because it exists doesn't mean we need it. EMU for Maynooth services and diesel beyond is fine.

The canal and other constraints (college, college farm site, R148) make a depot north of Maynooth complicated.

GM228

L1011 wrote: »

The canal and other constraints (college, college farm site, R148) make a depot north of Maynooth complicated.

That was a typo, west of Maynooth is where proposed depot wouod be (between the housing estate off Newtown Road and Laraghbryan East/L50411 I believe).

Ireland trains

It says on Modern Railways that 'irish rail hopes to place an initial tender for around 100 New bi-mode vehicles by mid 2018 to be delivered from 2023 onwards.
A further 200 New emu vehicles are planned to replace the 8100 class fleet but will be functionally identical to the bi-mode trains.
They are also working up plans to expand the DART lines to Maynooth, balbriggan or Drogheda and Hazelhatch via the Phoenix park tunnel'.
I'd say there is no point extending it to balbriggan because you'd still need commuter trains to operate services to Drogheda.

Losty Dublin

GM228 wrote: »

That was a typo, west of Maynooth is where proposed depot wouod be (between the housing estate off Newtown Road and Laraghbryan East/L50411 I believe).

By co-incidence, one of the proposed new depots for the the Dart Underground was to be located in and around there

tabbey

Losty Dublin wrote: »

By co-incidence, one of the proposed new depots for the the Dart Underground was to be located in and around there

That sounds implausible, as DART underground was for Hazelhatch to the Northern line.
It may be that an EMU depot at Maynooth would service the Maynooth - Greystones DART service, if and when DART Underground goes ahead.

Losty Dublin

tabbey wrote: »

That sounds implausible, as DART underground was for Hazelhatch to the Northern line.
It may be that an EMU depot at Maynooth would service the Maynooth - Greystones DART service, if and when DART Underground goes ahead.

Don't see how it is implausible.

lawred2

Ultimately until capacity and frequency is increased on the network around Dublin it's not really going to matter a toss to people what drives these trains.

Jamie2k9

L1011 wrote: »

Bi-mode is a stupid idea. Just because it exists doesn't mean we need it. EMU for Maynooth services and diesel beyond is fine.

The canal and other constraints (college, college farm site, R148) make a depot north of Maynooth complicated.

I see it as future proofing rather than "long term" operation of bi-mode units. They will remove the engines as soon as EMU is capable to Drogheda/Dundalk, M3 and Maynooth.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I see it as future proofing rather than "long term" operation of bi-mode units. They will remove the engines as soon as EMU is capable to Drogheda/Dundalk, M3 and Maynooth.

Electrification to Maynooth/M3 should be ready when these trains are also ready to go.

Drogheda electrification is not even mentioned in the 2019-2023 programme any more.

I can't see them spending big money on electric/diesel only to remove the diesel and limiting their use.

Ireland trains

So we know they will be ordering 100 bi mode trains probably in 25 4 car trains but any idea when they will actually order them

Jamie2k9

Most likely within the next 12 months if they plan to have them in operation in 2021/22.

Ireland trains

It'll be interesting to see what they will look like

Jamie2k9

Identical to the current 2900 fleet with minor changes. there will be no radical changes.

Ireland trains

Where did you get that information from

IE 222

Will they go for open gangways

Jamie2k9

Its just obvious, its a commuter trains and the 29s have a good layout already....

Will they go for open gangways

No idea, it would be a good idea in terms of capacity.

loyatemu

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its just obvious, its a commuter trains and the 29s have a good layout already....



No idea, it would be a good idea in terms of capacity.

The 29s are 20 years old, designs must have moved on somewhat since then - anyway they'll have to go to tender surely?

L1011

CAF were selling very similar units until a few years ago at least, wouldn't be surprised if that's what they'd offer still

Jamie2k9

loyatemu wrote: »

The 29s are 20 years old, designs must have moved on somewhat since then - anyway they'll have to go to tender surely?

They were only build in 2002-2005. Yes they will go to tender but I wouldn't expect a major internal spec difference. There is not much you can do with a high capacity commuter unit.

dowlingm

CAF currently offer a Civity family of DMUs and EMUs. Presumably these are an evolution of the 29000/C3K/C4K platforms?
http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/familia/civity/index.php
https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/67239/class-195-northern-track-testing/

tabbey

dowlingm wrote: »

CAF currently offer a Civity family of DMUs and EMUs. Presumably these are an evolution of the 29000/C3K/C4K platforms?
http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/familia/civity/index.php
https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/67239/class-195-northern-track-testing/

The class 195 coaches for Northern in UK are similar to Irish Rail Mk IV, but Civity may be designed for the continental loading gauge. Does it fit Irish & UK loading gauge?

Jamie2k9

British Rail Class 769 is a newly converted EMU to Bi-Mode, testing was due to start around now but has been delayed.

Not so sure about CAF, Asian manufacturers have been good for IE (22, 26, 28 etc) while the Mark IVs are poor and while the 29s are great they require a lot of work from what I gather. They need to get the contracts right with CAF if they are picked!

Marcusm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

British Rail Class 769 is a newly converted EMU to Bi-Mode, testing was due to start around now but has been delayed.

Not so sure about CAF, Asian manufacturers have been good for IE (22, 26, 28 etc) while the Mark IVs are poor and while the 29s are great they require a lot of work from what I gather. They need to get the contracts right with CAF if they are picked!

Those were 319 AC/DC trains which are now officially “Bimode”