DCM 2017 Graduates: Onwards and upwards!

Lazare

Lazare wrote: »

All going well I'm planning an early start tomorrow. Starting my 8 week plan for Raheny. Incorporating the McMillan 10k workouts into it. First one is 6x 1m at 10k pace with 3 to 4 mins recovery. As I'm a metric head I'm going to adjust it slightly to 6x 1.6k and 400m recovery. Will be easier to keep track of that way I think, always finishing on the .6.

Need to be on the road no later than 5:45am to make it work timewise.

Leabaland shortly so.

So. Ran that session that morning then had to go out that night for a work thing. A supplier from The Netherlands was over to bring me and my boss out on the town. Worked the next day with a banging hangover which developed into a serious case of the manflu.

Seriously though, I normally kick headcolds after a day or so but this went on and on. Abandoned parkrun, the first Saturday not running in 8 months figuring it would clear up in a day or two and I could get back into it. Went into the chest then and floored me. Ran parkrun the following week, 10 days off and coughed my lungs up. Ugh. Chest infection.

Course of antibiotics* later and I'm finally rid of it. Raheny plan is out the window sadly, December has been scratched.

I'll do three weeks of good running with a week of taper and hopefully pb but meh, it is what it is.

I'm thinking now of targeting a 10k in early April and then Dunshaughlin in June before settling back into the beast.

*You were right Sean

clickerquicklic

El Caballo wrote: »

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2006/09/wejo-speaks-why-i-sucked-in-college/

.

This is the best things I've read about running. Thanks El C.

I get it totally , I am only starting to come around to that way of thinking. I have been trying to run comfortable lately at an uncomfortable pace instead of just trying to get from A to B in the quickest possible time. When I run intervals it used to be about just putting a pain face on horrible form and diving at the line , the last couple of weeks I've really been concentrating on form and mid interval doing body checks , arms relaxed , face relaxed , high cadence , driving off back foot , back straight , landing in centre of body.

It's what I've been saying to people i'm not necessarily faster than 6 months ago but I feel stronger and more in control , I really get it run faster not harder . I need to read that link often so I've bookmarked it , I don't really run fast on my easy days but am certainly guilty of trying to beat the workout on hard days.

Thanks El C really good info.

Kellygirl

My main issue is running according to how I feel on the day - there are days when I feel tired and head out and suddenly i’m flying along and then have a pb on that route. I know i’m doing it and love the feeling at the end. That’s been ok for the last while as haven’t really been training for anything in particular but I do like following plans at the same time and I think it’s interesting what the pace calculator has given. My only issue is running with other people and they won’t want to slow right down but i’ll see how it goes. They aren’t training for anything in particular generally but I do love the company.

The Black Oil

Happy new year folks. I look forward to all the advice you'll be giving to the 2018 novices.

skyblue46

The Black Oil wrote: »

Happy new year folks. I look forward to all the advice you'll be giving to the 2018 novices.

The advice is simple....stick to the plan and run the first 10k ultra conservatively, the next 25k very conservatively, then run like fook!

The Black Oil

Bit early for that, first they have to register a place for it.

skyblue46

Quick, or not so quick, question for El C. As you may have noticed the paces on the calculator have exercised quite a few minds. In other parts of cyber space our graduates are still struggling to come to terms with 'slowing down'. People doing 29 minute 5k parkruns are perplexed to see that their very easy runs should be done at 14m per mile...slower than a brisk walk. This filters through most paces and the consensus is that they can't run that slowly.

In trying to make sense of it I have suggested that the paces really only apply to the plan. If someone is not doing sessions then they don't have the same need for recovery? If they are running alternate days then the rest days are the recovery and they can run tempo or moderate easy on other days? Is it simply not asking the body to push hard day after day? On the other hand if someone is running 5/6/7 days a week, sessions included, then it is more important that they pay heed to suggested very easy and easy paces?

skyblue46

The Black Oil wrote: »

Bit early for that, first they have to register a place for it.

Oh yeah, I forgot how much us novices needed to be guided by the hand! :pac:

El Caballo

skyblue46 wrote: »

Quick, or not so quick, question for El C. As you may have noticed the paces on the calculator have exercised quite a few minds. In other parts of cyber space our graduates are still struggling to come to terms with 'slowing down'. People doing 29 minute 5k parkruns are perplexed to see that their very easy runs should be done at 14m per mile...slower than a brisk walk. This filters through most paces and the consensus is that they can't run that slowly.

In trying to make sense of it I have suggested that the paces really only apply to the plan. If someone is not doing sessions then they don't have the same need for recovery? If they are running alternate days then the rest days are the recovery and they can run tempo or moderate easy on other days? Is it simply not asking the body to push hard day after day? On the other hand if someone is running 5/6/7 days a week, sessions included, then it is more important that they pay heed to suggested very easy and easy paces?

Interesting q's. First of all, I want to say that if anyone has any questions and I mean anthing, don't hesitate to ask. It's what I'm here for and although I might come across as bit blunt, I'm really a big ol softy at heart.

There's definitely a lot of merit in those questions and it's probably something I should have thought/covered already. The simple answer is that all of those will effect easy pace and you there will also be a tipping point depending on how fast a runner is where the calculator formula loses relavancy as a guidline. There's a lot to cover there so I'll try and go a little more detail tomorrow when I have a bit more time and not trying to type on my phone:)

skyblue46

As it's question time I'll add another. What part does recovery play in intervals. For example I have a session on the plan for Saturday. It's 15 mins tempo, 4 mins rest, 10 mins threshold. As on Monday I could do a Parkrun with 3k tempo and 2k threshold or I could stop on course for my 4 minutes rest and then continue. Which offers the most training benefit. Is it just about effort and heart rate or is there something to be gained by starting to run again after the body has started to switch off?

Damo 2k9

skyblue46 wrote: »

As it's question time I'll add another. What part does recovery play in intervals. For example I have a session on the plan for Saturday. It's 15 mins tempo, 4 mins rest, 10 mins threshold. As on Monday I could do a Parkrun with 3k tempo and 2k threshold or I could stop on course for my 4 minutes rest and then continue. Which offers the most training benefit. Is it just about effort and heart rate or is there something to be gained by starting to run again after the body has started to switch off?

Its something that I was asking about a couple weeks back in my log I think it was. When doing intervals I would always stop for my rest instead of just a light recovery jog, started doing that last week and each rep seems a lot easier to start again, rather then starting from being stationary. Not sure how different itll be with that type of session tho!

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

As it's question time I'll add another. What part does recovery play in intervals. For example I have a session on the plan for Saturday. It's 15 mins tempo, 4 mins rest, 10 mins threshold. As on Monday I could do a Parkrun with 3k tempo and 2k threshold or I could stop on course for my 4 minutes rest and then continue. Which offers the most training benefit. Is it just about effort and heart rate or is there something to be gained by starting to run again after the body has started to switch off?

As always ElC will give a detailed answer. My guess is it's to do with the stress. There's a reason these sessions are split with recoveries. For example if someone is training for a 5k ideally you would like to do a session training at the race pace for the full 5k but that's too much stress on the body. So it's broken into intervals with recoveries to reduce the overall stress. If you don't have the four minutes recovery between your tempo and threshold your essentially stressing your body continuously for 5k. My guess is at this stage in your plan that's bad.

ariana`

I haven't managed to get online much over the Christmas but i'm reading back now and there's been interesting posts & responses! El Cab i've bookmarked the article to read at my leisure. I'm still in a bit of flux with regards to following a plan, there's a lot to consider. But i have been making efforts to do more runs at my easy pace and i'm actually growing used to that pace and enjoying those runs. I have the same difficulty as Kellygirl in that i like running with people and it's hard to get them to slow down! Last night we did 7km, i managed to keep them with me @ my easy pace until half-way, it was an out & back route so when we turned they took off but i let them go. I did 4 strides in the 5th km so i reeled them back in a bit then and i finished only about 30 seconds behind them so we got to catch up and do our stretches together then. So that worked well and i was delighted i had stuck to my pace.

Baby75

ariana` wrote: »

I haven't managed to get online much over the Christmas but i'm reading back now and there's been interesting posts & responses! El Cab i've bookmarked the article to read at my leisure. I'm still in a bit of flux with regards to following a plan, there's a lot to consider. But i have been making efforts to do more runs at my easy pace and i'm actually growing used to that pace and enjoying those runs. I have the same difficulty as Kellygirl in that i like running with people and it's hard to get them to slow down! Last night we did 7km, i managed to keep them with me @ my easy pace until half-way, it was an out & back route so when we turned they took off but i let them go. I did 4 strides in the 5th km so i reeled them back in a bit then and i finished only about 30 seconds behind them so we got to catch up and do our stretches together then. So that worked well and i was delighted i had stuck to my pace.

It's great when you stick to the pace and it will pay off Ariana I am feeling the benefit already!

ariana`

Baby75 wrote: »

It's great when you stick to the pace and it will pay off Ariana I am feeling the benefit already!

Ya i really believe so, any reading i've done backs up everything we've been told on the novices and graduates threads, i don't doubt the science. But on the flipside this whole running crack started as a social outlet for me, running in the evening with the girls and having the chats & laughs was a lifesaver for me at a time when we had just moved to the sticks were i knew nobody and i was stuck at home with a toddler and a very difficult newborn. It's different now thankfully I'm much more settled but i don't want to turn my back on the girls who got me through those times and without whom i probably wouldn't be running at all and i'd miss them too, its definitely easier to go out the door on a cold/wet night when you're meeting someone, i mostly ran on my own training for dcm and it was a lonely road. So it's to strike the balance but runs like last night make me thing it's possible

Kellygirl

ariana` wrote: »

Ya i really believe so, any reading i've done backs up everything we've been told on the novices and graduates threads, i don't doubt the science. But on the flipside this whole running crack started as a social outlet for me, running in the evening with the girls and having the chats & laughs was a lifesaver for me at a time when we had just moved to the sticks were i knew nobody and i was stuck at home with a toddler and a very difficult newborn. It's different now thankfully I'm much more settled but i don't want to turn my back on the girls who got me through those times and without whom i probably wouldn't be running at all and i'd miss them too, its definitely easier to go out the door on a cold/wet night when you're meeting someone, i mostly ran on my own training for dcm and it was a lonely road. So it's to strike the balance but runs like last night make me thing it's possible

I meet people for part of my runs sometimes. Yesterday a friend was busy until 10:15 but I was starting earlier so I ran 5km to meet her and then we ran together back to my car and I dropped her back. Same with long runs, I used have people join me at certain stages depending on how far they wanted to go and i’d plan my routes with loops for them. It gave me the best of both worlds. Not always feasible but handy when it works out.

El Caballo

skyblue46 wrote: »

Quick, or not so quick, question for El C. As you may have noticed the paces on the calculator have exercised quite a few minds. In other parts of cyber space our graduates are still struggling to come to terms with 'slowing down'. People doing 29 minute 5k parkruns are perplexed to see that their very easy runs should be done at 14m per mile...slower than a brisk walk. This filters through most paces and the consensus is that they can't run that slowly.

In trying to make sense of it I have suggested that the paces really only apply to the plan. If someone is not doing sessions then they don't have the same need for recovery? If they are running alternate days then the rest days are the recovery and they can run tempo or moderate easy on other days? Is it simply not asking the body to push hard day after day? On the other hand if someone is running 5/6/7 days a week, sessions included, then it is more important that they pay heed to suggested very easy and easy paces?

I had wrote up a huge reply to this but I bumped into a lot of contradictions in my head about the first paragraph so leave it with for another bit SB and I'll get back to it when I've ironed out the creases:)

skyblue46 wrote: »

As it's question time I'll add another. What part does recovery play in intervals. For example I have a session on the plan for Saturday. It's 15 mins tempo, 4 mins rest, 10 mins threshold. As on Monday I could do a Parkrun with 3k tempo and 2k threshold or I could stop on course for my 4 minutes rest and then continue. Which offers the most training benefit. Is it just about effort and heart rate or is there something to be gained by starting to run again after the body has started to switch off?

Swashbuckler wrote: »

As always ElC will give a detailed answer. My guess is it's to do with the stress. There's a reason these sessions are split with recoveries. For example if someone is training for a 5k ideally you would like to do a session training at the race pace for the full 5k but that's too much stress on the body. So it's broken into intervals with recoveries to reduce the overall stress. If you don't have the four minutes recovery between your tempo and threshold your essentially stressing your body continuously for 5k. My guess is at this stage in your plan that's bad.

Swashbuckler nailed this one:). The idea behind interval workouts is to stress without going mad. The idea behind everthing in training is to progressively stress your body to shock it into adaption. Our body loves homeostasis and has an extreme dislike for overload so stress has to be gradually added throughout training by giving it little bumps of stress to adapt to. It also needs recovery time to adapt to training and return to homeostasis at a higher fitness level so you have to find a balance between stress and recovery in the whole scheme of a plan which is why intervals are broken into sections. The recovery in the actual sessions are so that you can a bit of stress from the intensity but without killing yourself in the bigger picture as running for longer at intensity is more stress on your system.

When you look at the plan, you should see that the workouts progress as the plan does. i.e less recovery, longer reps or higher volume. This is because you get stronger(adapted) as the plan goes on so need to add to it to get the same stress as you did from the earlier workouts in the plan. You're taking small progressive steps.

ariana` wrote: »

I haven't managed to get online much over the Christmas but i'm reading back now and there's been interesting posts & responses! El Cab i've bookmarked the article to read at my leisure. I'm still in a bit of flux with regards to following a plan, there's a lot to consider. But i have been making efforts to do more runs at my easy pace and i'm actually growing used to that pace and enjoying those runs. I have the same difficulty as Kellygirl in that i like running with people and it's hard to get them to slow down! Last night we did 7km, i managed to keep them with me @ my easy pace until half-way, it was an out & back route so when we turned they took off but i let them go. I did 4 strides in the 5th km so i reeled them back in a bit then and i finished only about 30 seconds behind them so we got to catch up and do our stretches together then. So that worked well and i was delighted i had stuck to my pace.

Good stuff ariana:)

If you're struggling to slow them down, send them on here, I'm sure my powers of nagging would keep them in check:p

To be serious though, It's a hobby at the end of the day so there has to be some balance there and going a bit faster sometimes isn't the end of the world no matter how much I harp on about it. I'm just giving the advice I know and hoping you guys take the message on board and run with it in general. I guess what I'm saying is don't make a habit of running someone elses pace for all your training. If you keep ideas in mind, get a nice spell of consistency under belt. Eventually you'll be telling them to come on and slowing up to keep together;)

skyblue46

Thanks for that. I'll stop mid parkrun next Saturday so. I enjoy them, enjoy my tour of Dublin parkruns, only get less than half of weekends off work so I am trying to use them in some adapted form as my Saturday session on the half marathon plan.

El Caballo

skyblue46 wrote: »

Thanks for that. I'll stop mid parkrun next Saturday so. I enjoy them, enjoy my tour of Dublin parkruns, only get less than half of weekends off work so I am trying to use them in some adapted form as my Saturday session on the half marathon plan.

No need to stop, from the man who designed the plan himself;)

Testosterscone wrote: »

Recovery periods for intervals is not something that too many people pay much attention to for the most part other than for how long but how you recover can play an important role depending on the type of session you are doing. Some sessions the recovery period is the focus you are trying to pay attention to as you are trying to encourage your body to use lactate as fuel.

Generally however in particular for this plan I would encourage active rest i.e jogging recoveries unless you are getting down to 1 mile race pace reps or less. Anything 5k pace or slower I would say for most people here jogging is fine as you are focusing on building aerobic capacity moreso than anything. With jog as well it should be nothing that this can be little more than a shuffle it's more just to keep the legs moving

In a previous incarnation I did up a general post on recoveries which might answer some of your questions

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99005110&postcount=3

skyblue46

El Caballo wrote: »

No need to stop, from the man who designed the plan himself;)

Haha...I'll run back the course so and then turn around for the threshold. They thought I was mad in Father Collins for running past the finish and back just to reach my 25 mins tempo!

clickerquicklic

skyblue46 wrote: »

Haha...I'll run back the course so and then turn around for the threshold. They thought I was mad in Father Collins for running past the finish and back just to reach my 25 mins tempo!

I tried a workout in parkrun before was in Malahide doing 500m fast 500m slow , the same group kept passing me then I’d sprint by them and they’d catch up and pass me and I’d sprint by them again , felt like a bit of a tool after overtaking them 4 or 5 Times so said never again ! I’m sure they left thinking “Jesus your man was competitive doesn’t like been beaten!”

skyblue46

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I tried a workout in parkrun before was in Malahide doing 500m fast 500m slow , the same group kept passing me then I’d sprint by them and they’d catch up and pass me and I’d sprint by them again , felt like a bit of a tool after overtaking them 4 or 5 Times so said never again ! I’m sure they left thinking “Jesus your man was competitive doesn’t like been beaten!”

Yeah I'm afraid of that. I just find sessions easier with other runners around. I find it much harder doing laps of the track to a pace.

El Caballo

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I tried a workout in parkrun before was in Malahide doing 500m fast 500m slow , the same group kept passing me then I’d sprint by them and they’d catch up and pass me and I’d sprint by them again , felt like a bit of a tool after overtaking them 4 or 5 Times so said never again ! I’m sure they left thinking “Jesus your man was competitive doesn’t like been beaten!”

Haha, been on the other side of the coin a few times. Ran a 5k at the end of October and settled in behind a guy who and thought" nice one, someone to work with". About a k in, his garmin started beeping like mad and he took off at an unmerciful sprint only to slow back down a minute later. Worked my back up to him gradually and just as I got onto his shoulder beep beep beep beep and he goes flying off again. He was doing 1 min on/off and everytime I just got on his shoulder heaving for air and questioning why I'm doing this to myself, he was gone off again the whole way through the race and just to add insult to injury as I was just catching up to him coming up to the finishline, he decides to sprint the last 50 metres on his off section to pip me at the line.:pac:

clickerquicklic

Yeah there’s a one guy I’ve seen who runs a 16 min 5k and he does Parkruns mostly as training sessions but if you over take him he will pass you easy , he still wants to finish first !
On that note I’ve a question , at what stage does natural ability come in ? Like I don’t see myself ever running 16 mins for 5k I don’t know what my limit will be but at what level do we say it natural ability only , can anyone train and run a sub 16 5k ? Is there a cut off point ?

El Caballo

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Yeah there’s a one guy I’ve seen who runs a 16 min 5k and he does Parkruns mostly as training sessions but if you over take him he will pass you easy , he still wants to finish first !
On that note I’ve a question , at what stage does natural ability come in ? Like I don’t see myself ever running 16 mins for 5k I don’t know what my limit will be but at what level do we say it natural ability only , can anyone train and run a sub 16 5k ? Is there a cut off point ?

The simple answer is no one knows and no can define what natural ability is. There's some people that you can see just have it and run incredible times off very little training but there's other people where it's just not obvious straight away and make take years to develop. A few examples from boards:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=57772654

That's Krusty, I believe he first started posting here about 10 years ago with a 50 something minute 10k PB. Through sheer discipline and dedication over a near decade, he ended up running 2:30.01 in the Rotterdam marathon last year to finish as the first male over 45 in one of the most prestigious marathons in the World.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77354521

Claralara ran 4:28 for her first marathon in 2010. In 2013, she finished top 10 in the national championships at the Dublin marathon running 2:57 and went on to represent Ireland in the 50k World Championships

Another guy who posts here by the name of Eau Rouge ran his first marathon in something like 4:10. Took him 12 attempts to crack sub-3 and just this year ran 2:28 in Berlin.

talent may play a role in how good you can be but I'm a firm believer in that people highly underestimate how good they can be and the only way you'll find out where you run dry on natural ability is to find out for yourself through dedication over a long period of time. I've said it here before but I gaurantee you that everyone on this thread and the vast vast majority of posters on this forum have not come close to uncovering their potential and that is probably far beyond what they think is possible right now. It all comes down to how much you are willing to do.

clickerquicklic

Thanks El C , some reading ahead that Krusty log is 538 pages long , the one you linked is something about water charges , I searched training logs and found it https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055411238 incredible stuff ill have a read of that must be loads of good info.

El Caballo

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Thanks El C , some reading ahead that Krusty log is 538 pages long , the one you linked is something about water charges , I searched training logs and found it https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055411238 incredible stuff ill have a read of that must be loads of good info.

Haha, wrong search result. That link was calling the government clowns:D

Baby75

Lazare wrote: »

So. Ran that session that morning then had to go out that night for a work thing. A supplier from The Netherlands was over to bring me and my boss out on the town. Worked the next day with a banging hangover which developed into a serious case of the manflu.

Seriously though, I normally kick headcolds after a day or so but this went on and on. Abandoned parkrun, the first Saturday not running in 8 months figuring it would clear up in a day or two and I could get back into it. Went into the chest then and floored me. Ran parkrun the following week, 10 days off and coughed my lungs up. Ugh. Chest infection.

Course of antibiotics* later and I'm finally rid of it. Raheny plan is out the window sadly, December has been scratched.

I'll do three weeks of good running with a week of taper and hopefully pb but meh, it is what it is.

I'm thinking now of targeting a 10k in early April and then Dunshaughlin in June before settling back into the beast.

*You were right Sean

sounds like that Ozzy flu glad you are over it

Swashbuckler

clickerquicklic wrote:

Yeah there’s a one guy I’ve seen who runs a 16 min 5k and he does Parkruns mostly as training sessions but if you over take him he will pass you easy , he still wants to finish first ! On that note I’ve a question , at what stage does natural ability come in ? Like I don’t see myself ever running 16 mins for 5k I don’t know what my limit will be but at what level do we say it natural ability only , can anyone train and run a sub 16 5k ? Is there a cut off point ?

I agree with everything ElC said but just to add/ask why don't you see yourself running 16mins for 5k? With the right training and the right attitude why not? It's certainly one of my goals. Not a short term one but for sure it's something I want to achieve and there's nothing special about me or my running. I firmly believe if you fall in love with running and you're willing to put the time and effort in then you'd be amazed what's achievable. Look at Krusty. When you think about it, to go from sub 50 10k to where he's at now? All about attitude and a little bit of help

clickerquicklic

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I agree with everything ElC said but just to add/ask why don't you see yourself running 16mins for 5k? With the right training and the right attitude why not? It's certainly one of my goals. Not a short term one but for sure it's something I want to achieve and there's nothing special about me or my running. I firmly believe if you fall in love with running and you're willing to put the time and effort in then you'd be amazed what's achievable. Look at Krusty. When you think about it, to go from sub 50 10k to where he's at now? All about attitude and a little bit of help

Well no matter how hard I train I won't run sub 14 so there is a cut off point for everyone , I was kinda trying to figure that out. Like if you took 100 men age 20-30 and trained them for 10 years maybe a large percentage could run run sub 16 but no matter how hard some train they will never run sub 14.
So that was the basis of my question can anyone be trained to run a sub 16 ? I guess you never know until you train but obviously theres a cut off point for everyone that even with perfect training diet sleep they can never go below a certain time. Sub 16 I view as elite I just couldn't see myself ever running that fast , I won't let it limit me though and its encouraging to read Krusty's log.