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App Developer Recommendations?
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18-11-2017 3:52pm#1Hi all,
My business partner and I are looking at the possibility of developing a dating app. I have surveyed our target audience in a limited way and the feedback has been great.
The concept behind the app pretty much solves a MAJOR pain point and frequently mentioned complaint among online daters with a feature that has been proven to increase the quality of conversations, the frequency at which contact details are exchanged, and therefore the number of dates that follow.
We have experience in this market also, having run our own dating sites (not apps) in the past, albeit very much as a side project that brought in some nice passive income.
Our only real obstacle at this stage is budget. We'd love to work with an Irish agency or developer, but realise we'd be looking at a commitment of around 20-30K, which is outside our budget. As such, I'd like to see if anyone here can recommend a solid app dev agency abroad, who would do great work but where their location means their rates are lower?
Or a freelance developer?
In any case, I thought that someone might have some pointers or recommendations, maybe having subcontracted or referred work in the past perhaps, or otherwise?
Would be great to hear some recommendations, should you have any.
Thanks!0
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Digital_Guy wrote: »Our only real obstacle at this stage is budget. We'd love to work with an Irish agency or developer, but realise we'd be looking at a commitment of around 20-30K, which is outside our budget. As such, I'd like to see if anyone here can recommend a solid app dev agency abroad, who would do great work but where their location means their rates are lower?
Similar quality is increasingly the same price anywhere in the world.
An Irish businessman I know was appalled at the cost of software development here in Ireland for doing up a crypto currency trading website, and did a whole load of work discovering dev shops aboard.
A Thai place he found, very good reputation, quoted 90% of what the Irish firm did. Barely worth the savings.
An Indian place he found, also with good reputation, actually quoted slightly more than the Irish firm.
The days of getting software done cheap abroad I suspect are gone. Irish, Thailand and India are similarly priced for the same quality of work. We are all much cheaper than the US.
My advance to my businessman friend is the same as to you: if you want quality software done cheap, either pay for it at market rates or be prepared to hand over most of the equity and pray you can find someone willing to take on the risk. Ideas are cheap. Execution is expensive.
Niall0 -
Similar quality is increasingly the same price anywhere in the world.
An Irish businessman I know was appalled at the cost of software development here in Ireland for doing up a crypto currency trading website, and did a whole load of work discovering dev shops aboard.
A Thai place he found, very good reputation, quoted 90% of what the Irish firm did. Barely worth the savings.
An Indian place he found, also with good reputation, actually quoted slightly more than the Irish firm.
The days of getting software done cheap abroad I suspect are gone. Irish, Thailand and India are similarly priced for the same quality of work. We are all much cheaper than the US.
My advance to my businessman friend is the same as to you: if you want quality software done cheap, either pay for it at market rates or be prepared to hand over most of the equity and pray you can find someone willing to take on the risk. Ideas are cheap. Execution is expensive.
Niall
Can see how it must be moving that way for sure, but in practice you must be able to find companies doing quality work for cheapear even just because they wouldn't be able to charge clients in those countries the same rates for obvious reasons.
Just had a look on Upwork and see two agencies with:
-Hourly rates between $15-$50/per hour
-Almost a million dollars billed between them
-100% positive reviews
They are based in Uruguay and Romania.
As I said, I'd prefer to work with an Irish agency, absolutely. But when you are effectively taking a punt on an idea (as you are with most ideas), you may not want to put 30 grand into it, even if you have it!
As for getting someone willing to work for equity, unless they are really focused on it, it's not the way forward in my experience...!0 -
Digital_Guy wrote: »Can see how it must be moving that way for sure, but in practice you must be able to find companies doing quality work for cheapear even just because they wouldn't be able to charge clients in those countries the same rates for obvious reasons.
Actually no. They no more charge less to local customers than I do to Irish customers. I charge everybody the same, and so do they.
(There is a huge gap between rich and poor in countries like India and Thailand, but their wealthy are just wealthy as those here, it's the low average which makes those countries appear to be poor. But their middle class nowadays have similar charging levels to our middle class for the most part, and software development is one of the most globalised sectors in the world, so prices converge)
Some eastern European countries and Russia do appear to trade currently at a discount however for the same calibre of work, presumably because the middle class over there are hurting. I know some very, very good engineers who will work for €30/hour for example, whilst I simply wouldn't work for less than €50/hour and more usually for much more if it weren't for the recession in C++ right now.
So I guess take your pick and see what happens.
Niall0 -
Actually no. They no more charge less to local customers than I do to Irish customers. I charge everybody the same, and so do they.
(There is a huge gap between rich and poor in countries like India and Thailand, but their wealthy are just wealthy as those here, it's the low average which makes those countries appear to be poor. But their middle class nowadays have similar charging levels to our middle class for the most part, and software development is one of the most globalised sectors in the world, so prices converge)
Some eastern European countries and Russia do appear to trade currently at a discount however for the same calibre of work, presumably because the middle class over there are hurting. I know some very, very good engineers who will work for €30/hour for example, whilst I simply wouldn't work for less than €50/hour and more usually for much more if it weren't for the recession in C++ right now.
So I guess take your pick and see what happens.
Niall
Well what I mean is that a 'high' hourly rate in Romania or the Czech Republic possibly is going to be around €40 or €50/hour, and then the average rate might be €25 or €30.
In Ireland, it'll be more like €100 or something, and then the average might be €50 (the same as the high rate in these other countries).
Obviously it's going to vary wildly, but you can see the contrast. If an agency abroad charges 300/day and an Irish agency charges 500/day, that's going to be a big difference!
Yep spot on, just have to do some research but you'd also be reluctant in case it flat out goes nowhere! A punt as I said.0 -
Maybe you could find someone who fancies earning themselves some extra cash to do it in their spare time (i.e. very part time). It'll take longer and communication will be much more difficult but it will most likely be cheaper if you are reluctant to invest too much at this stage. Can always pay for an agency if initial response is good, though changing dev will come with it's own set of problems I guess.
Not sure if it would fit with how you'd like it to go though.0 -
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Would you consider building the app Yourself?. There are two ways about it. Buy a monthly subscription one like "Goodbarber" no code required. Or learn how to code one. Would take around a year to learn. And about €5-6000 in 1-to-1 tuition fees.0
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Maybe you could find someone who fancies earning themselves some extra cash to do it in their spare time (i.e. very part time). It'll take longer and communication will be much more difficult but it will most likely be cheaper if you are reluctant to invest too much at this stage. Can always pay for an agency if initial response is good, though changing dev will come with it's own set of problems I guess.
Not sure if it would fit with how you'd like it to go though.
Yep might be the only way. Any recommendations for finding such a person? Obviously there are the global freelance sites which are the likely option, but you need to post an actual job on there to get any quotes to start.0 -
Would you consider building the app Yourself?. There are two ways about it. Buy a monthly subscription one like "Goodbarber" no code required. Or learn how to code one. Would take around a year to learn. And about €5-6000 in 1-to-1 tuition fees.
Thought of that actually but would take quite a while of course. I have other projects too and not sure it would be the best option all round really! You could learn how to build a basic app relatively quickly, but to get something that would be launch-ready would be another thing altogether I am guessing.0 -
Thanks - PMs sent guys!0
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A word of warning to anyone partnering up out of the blue. The developers work is front loaded in these partnerships so they take on the majority of the risk. That's why a pay/equity split is often a better deal since it means the idea/business person puts skin in the game early. It also means they can keep more equity and stay in the driving seat in terms of equity share. They also get the skill set they need without having to dig into their capital too much. Also, since money is changing hands the developer has to structure their work load in a much more professional way since the other party is a client as well as a partner - this is a very valuable situation for the other party. This level of expectation/professionalism will also hopefully scare away amateur developers from just giving it a go.
So for example a 30k project might turn into a 10k project + 20% equity (these are just example figures). Since most of these agreements are a bit loose the equity is ultimately going to be a gentleman's agreement but getting it signed in writing is still worth it for both sides. Saying that, it's important to plan out the milestones as to when a company is to be registered and the equity split put in place.
In these endeavours the main concern of all sides should be about how risk and reward is balanced fairly. This is vital not only in terms of fairness but this is also the best approach to building trust among parties. A figure it out later attitude is a recipe for the developer to get shafted down the road. And in any case, that kind of attitude will cause experienced developers to avoid you like the plague.0 -
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A word of warning to anyone partnering up out of the blue. The developers work is front loaded in these partnerships so they take on the majority of the risk. That's why a pay/equity split is often a better deal since it means the idea/business person puts skin in the game early. It also means they can keep more equity and stay in the driving seat in terms of equity share. They also get the skill set they need without having to dig into their capital too much. Also, since money is changing hands the developer has to structure their work load in a much more professional way since the other party is a client as well as a partner - this is a very valuable situation for the other party. This level of expectation/professionalism will also hopefully scare away amateur developers from just giving it a go.
So for example a 30k project might turn into a 10k project + 20% equity (these are just example figures). Since most of these agreements are a bit loose the equity is ultimately going to be a gentleman's agreement but getting it signed in writing is still worth it for both sides. Saying that, it's important to plan out the milestones as to when a company is to be registered and the equity split put in place.
In these endeavours the main concern of all sides should be about how risk and reward is balanced fairly. This is vital not only in terms of fairness but this is also the best approach to building trust among parties. A figure it out later attitude is a recipe for the developer to get shafted down the road. And in any case, that kind of attitude will cause experienced developers to avoid you like the plague.
Thanks Aswerty and completely agree with all of that. I would only want to work with a developer who is aware of and gets all this too.0 -
Oh, and just to add for your own benefit. The standard of execution for social mobile apps ( e.g. dating) is so high these days. I know a guy who tried to build a meet up style app and he failed hard in terms of the level of polish and usability you need to get to. His app never really got to a point where the general public would have considered it market ready. And that's before they even got around to tackling the problem of adoption let alone generating revenue or securing major funding. And he had two developers involved - one partnered and one outsourced. I'm sure his sunken cost was beyond the 30k you've been mentioning.
In terms of fundraising - the US is the only place that the market share and VC model rather than a traditional revenue model is entertained by investors. So unless you're turning the whole e-dating industry on it's head - you're the former and not the latter. This means starting this in Ireland is about the worst handicap you could have unless your differentiator is specific to the Irish market.
Though thinking out loud, digitising the matchmaking industry with a white label product would probably be the sort of thing you could get off the ground here. That's a cash up front business! Investors in Ireland understand that kind of thing and moving stagnating industries into the digital age is a well known path to success.
Personally, I think creating a successful business focussed on online dating is one of the most difficult goals you can set yourself. It really is the new "we're building a social app" which was the hot thing 10 years ago and which literally all but a handful failed (as in you could probably count them on your fingers).0 -
Oh, and just to add for your own benefit. The standard of execution for social mobile apps ( e.g. dating) is so high these days. I know a guy who tried to build a meet up style app and he failed hard in terms of the level of polish and usability you need to get to. His app never really got to a point where the general public would have considered it market ready. And that's before they even got around to tackling the problem of adoption let alone generating revenue or securing major funding. And he had two developers involved - one partnered and one outsourced. I'm sure his sunken cost was beyond the 30k you've been mentioning.
In terms of fundraising - the US is the only place that the market share and VC model rather than a traditional revenue model is entertained by investors. So unless you're turning the whole e-dating industry on it's head - you're the former and not the latter. This means starting this in Ireland is about the worst handicap you could have unless your differentiator is specific to the Irish market.
Though thinking out loud, digitising the matchmaking industry with a white label product would probably be the sort of thing you could get off the ground here. That's a cash up front business! Investors in Ireland understand that kind of thing and moving stagnating industries into the digital age is a well known path to success.
Personally, I think creating a successful business focussed on online dating is one of the most difficult goals you can set yourself. It really is the new "we're building a social app" which was the hot thing 10 years ago and which literally all but a handful failed (as in you could probably count them on your fingers).
It sure ain't easy but what field is these days! The one big advantage that you might not be aware of too is that online daters will try pretty much ANY app at least once. I speak from experience too! All it takes is a write-up in a blog or high traffic site to spark a nice amount of downloads, and if the app fits with current trends and solves some pain points, I believe it has an excellent chance.
It's also a very press and buzz-worthy area, which helps massively in terms of exposure and initial traction. People want to write about it and if someone has a good experience with a dating app, they will tell all their single friends about that very app.
Also, a lot of it is timing and luck. If I were here now talking about how I was looking for devs to work on a new swipe left / swipe right dating app, your reaction might be the same. But of course, that became Tinder!
So I think it mainly comes down to just having a go with a concept that is likely to resonate, and a path to getting that initial publicity to drive downloads in the early stages. And if people like it and are getting results, they'll stay and they'll recommend it to others.
I should also say that initial feedback among a group of mainly single people on FB was very positive, and they agreed it would help solve a few major pain points!0 -
Ha, yeah it's easy to write things off. There's actually a great thread somewhere by the guy who started Dropbox with everyone telling him why it's not going to work. Or another thread with Linus Torvalds the creator of Linux being told all the reasons why Linux isn't any good.0
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Ha, yeah it's easy to write things off. There's actually a great thread somewhere by the guy who started Dropbox with everyone telling him why it's not going to work. Or another thread with Linus Torvalds the creator of Linux being told all the reasons why Linux isn't any good.
Yep!! Bit like the 'yeaaah keep us posted there sure' replies Brian Chesky got from top investors when trying to pitch Airbnb 10 years ago!
https://medium.com/@bchesky/7-rejections-7d894cbaa084
It's always a gamble, but when it pays off, it pays off...0 -
Get a contractor to do it. Put some effort into getting someone decent.
My services are sold for obscene amounts of money by my employer. You'll definitely get better value using a contractor.
You won't save much and open yourself to significant risk employing someone based abroad. Best off just getting someone based in Ireland.0 -
Khalil Great Hearse wrote: »Get a contractor to do it. Put some effort into getting someone decent.
My services are sold for obscene amounts of money by my employer. You'll definitely get better value using a contractor.
You won't save much and open yourself to significant risk employing someone based abroad. Best off just getting someone based in Ireland.
Any half decent contractor is going to cost 400 - 500 per day.
Also OP, consider that you'll need backend services such as running on Amazon / Azure. Consider also that the app being designed around personal data, security is a premier concern.
A lot depends on the complexity of the functionality. It would be worth using one of the free non-coding app builders just to design the UI to get a proper feel for what is required.0 -
Yes you would pay a lot more than that for dev through custom sw dev company, e.g. 40k per month for single dev project.jimmycrackcorm wrote: »Any half decent contractor is going to cost 400 - 500 per day.0 -
jimmycrackcorm wrote: »Any half decent contractor is going to cost 400 - 500 per day.
Also OP, consider that you'll need backend services such as running on Amazon / Azure. Consider also that the app being designed around personal data, security is a premier concern.
A lot depends on the complexity of the functionality. It would be worth using one of the free non-coding app builders just to design the UI to get a proper feel for what is required.
Yup with an Irish agency you're talking around 400/day at least I'd say, so if the app took 10 weeks to deliver then it's going to be at least 20K and this doesn't include design or the other services you mention above.
Since it's between the two of us, 10K each might be doable but then again when you're looking to save not spend, it's a big punt. If a freelancer could build it for 10K (even for one platform; e.g. Android), then that would be a lot better.
But possibly a false economy too, if the quality won't be as high or if it's only for one platform.0 -
When I want to prototype something with a technology I am not familiar with I go to https://www.freelancer.com/ I hire between 2 and 3 different "Freelancers" to do the same project. Then whichever one I have the best working relationship with I use for a longer period. But I pay all three up to their completion.
Usually this gets me as far as filling in the more important "unknown unknowns" so at least the project appears short term de-risked. Obviously this is not the same as building a team which you will need for the commercial endeavour. One of the surprising results I have found is that the best value is typically not in India/China. I have even found for some projects the best value to be in US which I would not of expected.
OP: If you are of the mind of "build it and they will come" I would suggest you research the timeline/trajectory of other start-ups in the same market vertical before putting any money into it.0 -
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When I want to prototype something with a technology I am not familiar with I go to https://www.freelancer.com/ I hire between 2 and 3 different "Freelancers" to do the same project. Then whichever one I have the best working relationship with I use for a longer period. But I pay all three up to their completion.
Usually this gets me as far as filling in the more important "unknown unknowns" so at least the project appears short term de-risked. Obviously this is not the same as building a team which you will need for the commercial endeavour. One of the surprising results I have found is that the best value is typically not in India/China. I have even found for some projects the best value to be in US which I would not of expected.
OP: If you are of the mind of "build it and they will come" I would suggest you research the timeline/trajectory of other start-ups in the same market vertical before putting any money into it.
Interesting, we chatted over PM too. I would much prefer to work with an agency in the US.
Freelancers are frequently way too unreliable and will express initial interest then disappear, miss milestones by miles, etc.
Just a case of finding a solid agency, a quote that is affordable, and then assessing whether to go ahead or not.0
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