Disc brakes and racing

harringtonp

Its on the way

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20171114-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-to-allow-use-of-disc-brakes-in-domestic-road-and-circuit-competition-from-2018-0

Where Britain goes, we usually follow... apart from BREXIT ...

magicbastarder

BREXIT+DISCS=BRISKET.

ednwireland

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

They obviously can't fit 12 speed onto bikes so disc brakes is the new thing.
Probably cause carnage in mixed bunches

bilbot79

Why arent they already allowed?

harringtonp

2012

"John Herety, team manager of the JLT-Condor cycling team, welcomed the news: “The number of people riding disc brake road bikes is increasing all the time.

“British Cycling’s decision to allow the use of disc brakes in domestic road and closed circuit races in 2018 will help to remove a barrier that is currently preventing some people from getting into competitive racing and this decision will hopefully have a really positive impact on the future growth and sustainability of the sport.”

British Cycling is the latest cycling governing body to adopt this change and follows USA Cycling, Cycling Australia and more recently Cycling Canada. UCI sanctioned events will still be subject to specific UCI regulations in relation to the use of disc brakes."

Danbo!

bilbot79 wrote: »

Why arent they already allowed?

EDIT: Don't know what I'm talking about

07Lapierre

Danbo! wrote: »

Hot sharp metal spinning things don’t mix well with skin in a pileup. I wondered as well if there’s a mix of disc and non disc, would varying braking ability in a large group pose a danger?

Should note I know nothing about racing

The only real reason to object to them is reason No. 5...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfNRq_QqShE

magicbastarder

Danbo! wrote: »

Hot sharp metal spinning things don’t mix well with skin in a pileup.

discs have nothing on chainrings when it comes to potential damage to skin.
that said, i can't see too many bunch sprints with the participants with the chain on the small ring.

Chips Lovell

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

Weepsie wrote: »

I thought it was a UCI rule that national federations couldn't use them domestically

Only for UCI races. So they'd still be banned for stuff like the Tour of Britain, Tour of Yorkshire, RideLondon etc.

British Cycling is the latest cycling governing body to adopt this change and follows USA Cycling, Cycling Australia and more recently Cycling Canada. UCI sanctioned events will still be subject to specific UCI regulations in relation to the use of disc brakes.

Crocked

I thought the reason for banning them was due to different braking performance.

In a bunch on wet roads, one lad is braking on carbon clinchers and another is on discs. Going to get very messy, very quickly.

Lemming

Danbo! wrote: »

Hot sharp metal spinning things don’t mix well with skin in a pileup.

Not meaning to single you out Danbo, but what is this common perception about discs being some sort of plutonium isotope-infused razor blades? We've had posters on here before claiming that discs "tend to get sharper over time" and now claims that they're hot and sharp. It's absolute hysteria gone wild.

Discs will get hot, but to get to the point where you would pull your hand away instinctively because of the heat you would need to be absolutely wailing on the brakes and/or applying the brakes heavily over an extended period of time; sudden sharp braking wont do.

Chips Lovell

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

On a practical level it's still probably just going to be people who get paid to ride them and people who don't know any better.

Danbo!

Lemming wrote: »

Not meaning to single you out Danbo, but what is this common perception about discs being some sort of plutonium isotope-infused razor blades? We've had posters on here before claiming that discs "tend to get sharper over time" and now claims that they're hot and sharp. It's absolute hysteria gone wild.

Discs will get hot, but to get to the point where you would pull your hand away instinctively because of the heat you would need to be absolutely wailing on the brakes and/or applying the brakes heavily over an extended period of time; sudden sharp braking wont do.

Good point, I've no reliable source but wondered the same and was told by two different friends who I (had) considered knew a lot about racing. I've edited my post to stop the spread, sorry

Lemming

Danbo! wrote: »

Good point, I've no reliable source but wondered the same and was told by two different friends who I (had) considered knew a lot about racing. I've edited my post to stop the spread, sorry

Just to clarify, I know jack about (road) racing either. I'm coming from an MTB background where discs have been around for over twenty years and almost universal for the last 10/15.

harringtonp

2012

07Lapierre wrote: »

The only real reason to object to them is reason No. 5...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfNRq_QqShE

One reason not to which they didn't mention is wheel compatibility. With rim brakes you can buy any road rim wheel out there and it fits. With disc wheels you get into axle sizes and there is no standard yet.

And on the weight thing from looking I've done its not just a few grams. You can get a rim brake bike weighing 7kg for 2500 but can anybody link to a disc brake bike for <2500 with a weight anywhere near 7.5

CramCycle

2014

My only concern would be difference in breaking performance, in that if it is that much better, is there a higher risk of crashes.

Personally I don't care, a bit sh1tty on those of us who recently bought bikes with rim brakes because we were told Discs were a non runner for a few years.

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

harringtonp wrote: »

And on the weight thing from looking I've done its not just a few grams. You can get a rim brake bike weighing 7kg for 2500 but can anybody link to a disc brake bike for <2500 with a weight anywhere near 7.5

It's like we've gone back 20 years with bicycle weights.

And we're told they don't matter because aero.

CramCycle

2014

Lumen wrote: »

It's like we've gone back 20 years with bicycle weights.

And we're told they don't matter because aero.

If cyclocross is to be believed, we need heavier bikes so that we can hide the motors believably :pac:

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

Also, this..

“We know that buying a bike is a significant financial investment for people to make and with the cycling industry producing more and more bikes with disc brakes we felt it was only right that we amended our regulations to ensure that people can take part in any form of cycling, whether recreational or competitive, with one bike.

...is just completely arseways.

Where does it stop? Why not let people race with mudguards and racks while we're at it? You know, to keep it accessible.

Toss. I bet the average disc braked racer costs £4k and up. What this is doing is completely the opposite of the stated objective, because once disc brakes start to penetrate the bunch everyone will need one.

And then the budget racer who could pick up a decent rim-braked race bike for £1k on the bike to work scheme (or cheaper second hand) will be completely screwed.

eeeee

2011

Lumen wrote: »

Also, this..



...is just completely arseways.

Where does it stop? Why not let people race with mudguards and racks while we're at it? You know, to keep it accessible.

Toss. I bet the average disc braked racer costs £4k and up. What this is doing is completely the opposite of the stated objective, because once disc brakes start to penetrate the bunch everyone will need one.

And then the budget racer who could pick up a decent rim-braked race bike for £1k on the bike to work scheme (or cheaper second hand) will be completely screwed.

This is absolutely the case for me, it will be years before I could afford a decent comparable disc braked bike, even when they become cheaper second hand.

So I'm gonna be on my rim brakes in a largely disc braked bunch for years. Oh joy.

Ugh

harringtonp

2012

Lumen wrote: »

Also, this..

because once disc brakes start to penetrate the bunch everyone will need one..

I presume the logic here is that disc brakes bikes DO stop quicker and that if you are the only one on rim brakes you will be going into back wheels when the bunch stalls...

Steve SilverMint

2012

I'd imagine now that Campagnolo finally launched their disc brakes during the summer the switch will really start to gather momentum.

saccades

Seventies - Apparently were misery came home to roost

Lumen wrote: »

Toss. I bet the average disc braked racer costs £4k and up. What this is doing is completely the opposite of the stated objective, because once disc brakes start to penetrate the bunch everyone will need one.

And then the budget racer who could pick up a decent rim-braked race bike for £1k on the bike to work scheme (or cheaper second hand) will be completely screwed.

My Hydro disc braked racer cost £1400 gbp, PX do a mech disc with carbon frame/forks/Rival 11 for 1350 euro. Giant Defy Disc is 1k GBP, Cube are selling ultegra carbon disc bikes for 2.5K euros, cervelo for 2.7k euros and that's before I go to pauls cycles and see cannondale synapse ultegra disc for 2k euros. Are they average enough?

You know the main difference with disc brakes? more consistent braking in poor weather conditions so the dry summer racers will be fine, you know something else that you haven't thought of....

With no need to include a braking track on the rim there is nothing to wear it out and you can start to get some really, really light rims in aluminium which are way cheaper than carbon (less sexy though) that will last an age. My last disc wheel (Open Pro on XT hub) hit 23K on wicklows roads before a spoke went and it needed a rebuilt, rim was immaculate. It's done another 5K plus on a mates commuter bike in dublin.

My current rims are on ~7K.

I'd be more worried about which bolt thru standard becomes the standard.

niceonetom

saccades wrote: »

My Hydro disc braked racer cost £1400 gbp, PX do a mech disc with carbon frame/forks/Rival 11 for 1350 euro. Giant Defy Disc is 1k GBP, Cube are selling ultegra carbon disc bikes for 2.5K euros, cervelo for 2.7k euros and that's before I go to pauls cycles and see cannondale synapse ultegra disc for 2k euros. Are they average enough?

You know the main difference with disc brakes? more consistent braking in poor weather conditions so the dry summer racers will be fine, you know something else that you haven't thought of....

With no need to include a braking track on the rim there is nothing to wear it out and you can start to get some really, really light rims in aluminium which are way cheaper than carbon (less sexy though) that will last an age. My last disc wheel (Open Pro on XT hub) hit 23K on wicklows roads before a spoke went and it needed a rebuilt, rim was immaculate. It's done another 5K plus on a mates commuter bike in dublin.

My current rims are on ~7K.

I'd be more worried about which bolt thru standard becomes the standard.

Yeah, but those bikes are still significantly heavier than the same model with rim brakes... so the trade-off between weight and braking has to be faced by those without megabucks. That's a trade-off that simply doesn't exist as it stands.

It's not entirely trivial either. An extra kg can be the difference between getting over a hill fairly handily and suffering like a dog, at least that has been my experience in racing.

The weight-penalty for disks seems to generally be about 700g to 1000g (and about the same number of euro) - how many racers would be keen on the idea of taking an additional couple of bidons up every incline? On the promise that their rims will last longer?

Outside of road-racing, discs make a lot of sense, but in the bunch rim brakes still win out on the basis of weight, aerodynamics, level of faff, and inevitable crash replacement cost.

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

I looked at some prices and it seems the hydro disc penalty over rim brakes is currently around €500 or 25%, whichever is greater.

niceonetom

And about how many grams does that €500 add to average total bike?

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

niceonetom wrote: »

And about how many grams does that €500 add to average total bike?

Dunno.

Here's a custom weightweenied Colnago C60 disc @ 7.4kg. It looks very expensive.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=134689

I bet it cost a lot more than AstraMonti's 5.63kg Planet X.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84778803&postcount=5523

CramCycle

2014

Suppose it will depend on the number of crashes it causes in A4 before they decide on making discs mandatory or having seperate races.

I for one think that once they get the indoor velodrome built, it will be grand, as none of us will need brakes then.

niceonetom

Lumen wrote: »

Dunno.

Here's a custom weightweenied Colnago C60 disc @ 7.4kg. It looks very expensive.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=134689

I bet it cost a lot more than AstraMonti's 5.63kg Planet X.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84778803&postcount=5523

I'm not talking about bespoke show-ponies that exist to be photographed for the the internet. As I'm sure Astra would (eventually) admit, that is a very sill bike. Lovely, but silly.

What I was trying to compare is the opposite end of the fred ladder - off-the-peg, my-first-proper-race-bike bikes. You know, big brand, ultegra, alu wheels. Ford Focus of bikes. That kind of thing.

The Giant TCR is probably about as typical and vanilla as it gets. You can get this for €2100 rrp or you can essentially the same bike with disks for €2400. So only 300 extra...

But the one with discs is about 800 to 1000g heavier (depending on which reviews you chose to believe).

So the cheaper bike is the faster one, more or less. And that's why I'd chose it for racing.

But I'm not sure I can rely on others to do the same though, judging by the amount of cycling industry press-release boilerplate guff that pops up on forums.

Personally, I hope that the whenever the rules change and the first tranche of disk-equipped freds show up to race in spring, they are mocked and derided mercilessly, to the point of tears and deep deep buyer's remorse.

Racing a bike with disk brakes should be seen as an open declaration of incompetence, naivety, neophytism, and disrespect to the sport, your fellow competitor, nature, your country, the cycling gods, and Sean Kelly himself. Hopefully that taboo will be established and disks will be like hairy legs or helmets with peaks on them - not illegal, but frowned upon with a severity sufficient to keep the numbers down.

CramCycle

2014

Agree with everything even the hairy legs comment, while I like well shaved legs, my partner doesn't so I have to accept the humiliation when I turn up in a TT suit and King Kong's legs.

Eamonnator

Seventies - Apparently were misery came home to roost

Here is a comparison between two Canyon Bikes. They have the exact same components and wheels, with one exception. One has disc brakes, the other doesn't.
The disc brake version is one kilogramme heavier and six hundred Euro more expensive.

https://www.canyon.com/en-ie/tools/bike-comparison/#biketype=1&bike1=4160&bike2=4084

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

Eamonnator wrote: »

Here is a comparison between two Canyon Bikes. They have the exact same components and wheels, with one exception. One has disc brakes, the other doesn't.
The disc brake version is one kilogramme heavier and six hundred Euro more expensive.

https://www.canyon.com/en-ie/tools/bike-comparison/#biketype=1&bike1=4160&bike2=4084

That's a great comparison.

The rim-braked version might be bang on 6.8kg with pedals and bottle cages. The disc braked version is going to be 7.8kg.

But....

The rim-braked one has full carbon rims. I haven't used any very modern carbon rims, but the 2010-ish ones I had were just woeful in the wet. It never seemed to matter for racing, because there wasn't much braking in the racing I did, but still...

Maybe there will be a split between entry level race bikes with shallow alu rims and expensive bikes with deep sections and disc brakes.

The braking will be similar but the deep rimmed disc braked versions will have different aero.

What's the latest on the drag of loadsa spokes + sticky out disc brakes + deep rims vs shallow low-spoke rim-braked wheels?

endacl

Lumen wrote: »

It's like we've gone back 20 years with bicycle weights.

And we're told they don't matter because aero.

Always easiest and cheapest to drop weight from the engine.

Lumen

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

endacl wrote: »

Always easiest and cheapest to drop weight from the engine.

But completely irrelevant to a discussion of alternative bicycle components.

eeeee

2011

niceonetom wrote: »

I<snip>

The Giant TCR is probably about as typical and vanilla as it gets. You can get this for €2100 rrp or you can essentially the same bike with disks for €2400. So only 300 extra...

But the one with discs is about 800 to 1000g heavier (depending on which reviews you chose to believe).

So the cheaper bike is the faster one, more or less. And that's why I'd chose it for racing.

But I'm not sure I can rely on others to do the same though, judging by the amount of cycling industry press-release boilerplate guff that pops up on forums.

Personally, I hope that the whenever the rules change and the first tranche of disk-equipped freds show up to race in spring, they are mocked and derided mercilessly, to the point of tears and deep deep buyer's remorse.
<snip>

€300 is a huge amount of money to someone like me, and in fact if I do get a disc braked bike it will be years after they become legal, and therefore affordable second hand.

They will be completely and totally adopted by fellow racers, of that I have no doubt. Most take on every single legal technological advance as soon as it can.
In the same way few race with downtube shifters now, rim brakes will go the same way.
Even Sean Kelly couldn't hold out on the technological advances, he raced clipped in in the end.
There will be fcuk all derision, and ships jumped as soon as they can be if every other technological advance to hit racing has proved.

But not before I can afford to upgrade, and have years of avoiding the back of sharp braking disc people.
Disc's coming in unlevels the playing field even more, and make an already exclusive sport even further out of reach, and unaffordable.

Cant wait :rolleyes:

saccades

Seventies - Apparently were misery came home to roost

"Disks coming in unlevels the playing field even more"

The engine matters the most, then at speed it's aero. Any other complaint is someone not training enough.


I don't race because I'm currently not allowed to.

I'm a disc convert, I think they are ace for mtb, commuting and club spins in dirty weather. A lot of people in the road club were worried about my road discs on the sunday spin initially. 2 years later and no one cares as I haven't chainsawed anyone in half, if there is a need for emergency braking then bumping into another bike is down the list of worries.

For racing in Ireland (And pro racing in general)... I don't think it's quite so clear cut, some races they will make sense others they won't, it's another thing to think about before a race the same as calculating which cassette to put on.

I do have to point out the logical failure in your post though nee - you can spend 2.1K on a TCR rim braked bike but can't afford the extra 300 for the heavier disc version? Spend that 2.1K updating your current bike to include discs (front only if on a strict budget).

Macy0161

2014

Can only talk as some one who got a disc brakes bike when the thoughts of racing hadn't entered my head. The ban probably already has been a barrier to me!

eeeee

2011

saccades wrote: »

"Disks coming in unlevels the playing field even more"

The engine matters the most, then at speed it's aero. Any other complaint is someone not training enough.


I don't race because I'm currently not allowed to.

I'm a disc convert, I think they are ace for mtb, commuting and club spins in dirty weather. A lot of people in the road club were worried about my road discs on the sunday spin initially. 2 years later and no one cares as I haven't chainsawed anyone in half, if there is a need for emergency braking then bumping into another bike is down the list of worries.

For racing in Ireland (And pro racing in general)... I don't think it's quite so clear cut, some races they will make sense others they won't, it's another thing to think about before a race the same as calculating which cassette to put on.

I do have to point out the logical failure in your post though nee - you can spend 2.1K on a TCR rim braked bike but can't afford the extra 300 for the heavier disc version? Spend that 2.1K updating your current bike to include discs (front only if on a strict budget).

I can't afford either of those bikes, I said that €300 is a huge amount of money to me, as a difference. If I get the money to buy a new (second hand) race bike, the price differential between rim and disc brakes has it out of my price range for a long while yet.

Obviously the engine matters most, that concept isn't beyond me! But if the same one is on a 7kg disc braked bike, and the other is on (as I am at the mo) a 10kg rim braked bike, disc brake person is going to be able to have more modulation, and comfort on a rolling course, brake later into corners etc. etc. It's a fallacy to say they'll be the same.

And I don't know if racing has changed since you were at it but people slamming on their brakes happens A LOT in the road races I do. It happens repeatedly in every single one I do. This is going to be a lot scarier when those people are on discs and I am on rim brakes.

Bear in mind what happens in the pro peleton is a lot different in the amateur one, you can't compare them. Also bear in mind that the womens races are not divided into abilities, all are in together, which is another concern in the disc and rim thing.

Yet another reason track rules, no brakes or gears!

Cookie_Monster

Anything that raises the profile and makes them more common is good new IMO.
My road bike has rims brakes, my cycloX commuter discs. I hate the road bike now, the brakes are totally ****. I cannot wait to be able to afford to replace it with all new disc based goodness and feel good about stopping once more.

harringtonp

2012

nee wrote: »

They will be completely and totally adopted by fellow racers, of that I have no doubt. Most take on every single legal technological advance as soon as it can.
In the same way few race with downtube shifters now, rim brakes will go the same way.
Even Sean Kelly couldn't hold out on the technological advances, he raced clipped in in the end.
There will be fcuk all derision, and ships jumped as soon as they can be if every other technological advance to hit racing has proved.

Cant wait :rolleyes:

Love your optimism. The 2 other things you mention were advances... they made a rider go faster and it was a no brainer to adopt them.

Look around the domestic peleton: aero frames, light but deep section wheels, skin suits, aero helmets, shaved legs, guys carry next to nothing in pockets. This is all in the name of free speed. There is no way these guys are going to take on something that adds the guts of the extra kg and reduces aerodynamics.

In club circles you do see guys talking up disc brakes. But in general they don't race and are the guys who are most risk averse when it comes to route choice, road conditions etc. Tell the public disc brakes are safer and by in large they will go for up. But the racing scene won't buy that as the level of risk (and lack of control they have over it) they face is high.

It will only change if the weights equalize due to frame changes (and I gather there is scope for this) and they can get enough marketing blurb out there to convince riders that there is no loss in aerodynamics.

As others say the engine is the main thing but unlike running all the other things you can do to help yourself go faster are a very big second (as anybody who has recently switched from summer bike and setup to winter will probably attest).

eeeee

2011

harringtonp wrote: »

Love your optimism. The 2 other things you mention were advances... they made a rider go faster and it was a no brainer to adopt them.

Look around the domestic peleton: aero frames, light but deep section wheels, skin suits, aero helmets, shaved legs, guys carry next to nothing in pockets. This is all in the name of free speed. There is no way these guys are going to take on something that adds the guts of the extra kg and reduces aerodynamics.

In club circles you do see guys talking up disc brakes. But in general they don't race and are the guys who are most risk averse when it comes to route choice, road conditions etc. Tell the public disc brakes are safer and by in large they will go for up. But the racing scene won't buy that as the level of risk (and lack of control they have over it) they face is high.

It will only change if the weights equalize due to frame changes (and I gather there is scope for this) and they can get enough marketing blurb out there to convince riders that there is no loss in aerodynamics.

As others say the engine is the main thing but unlike running all the other things you can do to help yourself go faster are a very big second (as anybody who has recently switched from summer bike and setup to winter will probably attest).

I agree with the above. I also think it's only a matter of time before they make disc bikes as light as rim-braked bikes.

There is a large part of me that thinks this is all just a way of selling a new thing to make more moneny cos the margins on the old thing are shot to shyte. It seems market rather than performance driven.

I'm not anti-disc, they make sense in a lot of ways, but I can't say I have ever felt the rim brakes on my race bike deficient, although I can also see how discs can aid performance (late braking into corners is a big one, it's a cnut to have to chase back on after them if you get caught behind at them). I just feel like it's just a method of selling bikes.

I hope it'll take a while, but I'm pretty sure those with deep pockets will be racing super light disc brake bikes as soon as they can, leaving those who can't at a disadvantage.

All those second place things add up, secondary and all though they are.

And so everyone goes out to buy a new bike...

magicbastarder

nee wrote: »

And so everyone goes out to buy a new bike...

an idea abhorrent to cyclists!

that said, i'd be curious as to the average age of bikes out on the road, maybe ones you'd see people using on club spins.

CramCycle

2014

I use the same bike for commuting, audaxes, club spins, racing. While we all say about different bikes for different things, I imagine I am not alone in my limited number of bikes.

I won't be getting another road bike for at least 4 years, again, I doubt I am the only one.

Chips Lovell

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

Whatever about weight, I think the biggest drawback is that they're not very practical for road racing, which you'd quickly find out the first time you find yourself standing at the side of a road holding a wheel in the air watching the bunch disappear.

CramCycle

2014

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Whatever about weight, I think the biggest drawback is that they're not very practical for road racing, which you'd quickly find out the first time you find yourself standing at the side of a road holding a wheel in the air watching the bunch disappear.

So your saying they work as legitimate excuses, my mind is changing.

harringtonp

2012

magicbastarder wrote: »

an idea abhorrent to cyclists!

that said, i'd be curious as to the average age of bikes out on the road, maybe ones you'd see people using on club spins.

Winter bike: 2009
Summer (race) bike: 2013

Both 10 speed, 11 speed will eventually force an upgrade of some sort

ednwireland

Nineties - Welcome to the internet

magicbastarder wrote: »

an idea abhorrent to cyclists!

that said, i'd be curious as to the average age of bikes out on the road, maybe ones you'd see people using on club spins.

2009 focus cayo (3rd set of wheels)

jamesd

2015

magicbastarder wrote: »

an idea abhorrent to cyclists!

that said, i'd be curious as to the average age of bikes out on the road, maybe ones you'd see people using on club spins.

Summer Bike - 2016
Winter Bike - 2016

CramCycle

2014

magicbastarder wrote: »

an idea abhorrent to cyclists!

that said, i'd be curious as to the average age of bikes out on the road, maybe ones you'd see people using on club spins.

2015 Stevens Veulta

oinkely

2001 Giant TCR (though haven't raced since the bike was only 10 years old)

dahat

Race bike 2016
Winter bike 2015

No plans to upgrade either, race bike will see me out as I'm 40 yrs old and A3 with a season of hidings ahead. Possibly another 2/3 years racing left in me.