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National pride

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    #92
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    server down wrote: »

    No they are not. If we had random lines on a Map we would have lots more separatist movements. Nation states are not just States. Some historic nations were split up - east and west Germany, and north and south Korea.

    Some states are multi-national, like the UK. In multi-national states there tend to be separatist movements. In some parts of the world two competing nationalities are in conflict, like Northern Ireland. Nation states tend to be stable, mult-national states tend not to be.

    ( and by multi-national I dont mean multi-cultural. I mean countries with a ethnic or language group that was historically in the majority in a certain area).

    In fact random lines on a Map is what colonialism left Africa and to a certain extent the middle east and it doesnt work.

    Germany as a nation came into existence in 1871. It's borders then bear no resemblance to its borders today.
    Poland didn't exist as a nation between 1795 and 1918.
    Austria's borders today would be unrecognisable to someone 100 years ago.
    Belgium didn't exist until 1830
    If you lived in Alsace at any time before 1945, you may well have had to change nationality a few times during your lifetime.

    All those (former) borders are entirely artificial.

    But I do take it as a very positive result of Europe's very recent history that people these days assume that our borders are naturally grown and immutable rather than the random result of the latest bout of violence - it speaks of decades of peace that would allow such an assumption to grow.


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    #93
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Shenshen wrote: »
    Germany as a nation came into existence in 1871. It's borders then bear no resemblance to its borders today.

    Not talking about boders. I am talking about nations, or peoples with cultural or linguistic similarities. The germans existed before the State existed.

    Poland didn't exist as a nation between 1795 and 1918.

    ireland didnt exist as a State until 1921. The Irish people existed before that. Polish people didnt blink out of existance between 1795 and 1918 either. If they did they would have stayed in Russia and considered themselves Russian.
    Austria's borders today would be unrecognisable to someone 100 years ago.

    Thats right, the artifical construct called the Austro Hungarian empire collapsed.
    Belgium didn't exist until 1830

    Its a non-nation State, hence the seperatist movements. Thats one of the remaining non nation states in Europe, the UK is another.
    If you lived in Alsace at any time before 1945, you may well have had to change nationality a few times during your lifetime.

    However people's nationality didnt change.
    All those (former) borders are entirely artificial.

    The artifical one's broke up. So yes.
    But I do take it as a very positive result of Europe's very recent history that people these days assume that our borders are naturally grown and immutable rather than the random result of the latest bout of violence - it speaks of decades of peace that would allow such an assumption to grow.

    In this entire sequence of nonsense you are deliberately using nation in the sense that I didnt use it. I specifically said Nation-States are not artifical constructs.

    You on the other hand are using the term Nation as synomous with the State. Its true that these terms are sometimes interchangable but not when we are explaining the difference between a nation state, and some other kind of multi-national state.

    So yes states come and go, but nations dont. And nation states are stable because they dont have sub-nations who want to separate. The UK, being multi-national, has seperatists movement. Germany being a nation state does not.

    EDIT:

    or as wiki sez

    A nation state or nation-state is a type of state that joins the political entity of a state to the cultural entity of a nation, from which it aims to derive its political legitimacy to rule and potentially its status as a sovereign state.[1] A state is specifically a political and geopolitical entity, whilst a nation is a cultural or ethnic one. The term "nation state" implies that the two coincide, in that a state has chosen to adopt and endorse a specific cultural group as associated with it.


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    #94
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    If you are finding this difficult look to our neighbour. In international competitions the Scottish, Welsh and English have seperate national teams. They belong to one State.


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    #95
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    server down wrote: »
    Not talking about boders. I am talking about nations, or peoples. The germans existed before the State existed.




    ireland didnt exist as a State until 1921. The Irish people existed before that. Polish people didnt blink out of existance between 1795 and 1918 either. If they did they would have stayed in Russia and considered themselves Russian.



    Thats right, the artifical construct called the Austro Hungarian empire collapsed.



    Its a non-nation State, hence the seperatist movements. Thats one of the remaining non nation states in Europe, the UK is another.



    However people's nationality didnt change.



    The artifical one's broke up. So yes.



    In this entire sequence of nonsense you are deliberately using nation in the sense that I didnt use it. I specifically said Nation-States are not artifical constructs.

    You on the other hand are using the term Nation as synomous with the State. Its true that these terms are sometimes interchangable but not when we are explaining the difference between a nation state, and some other kind of multi-national state.

    So yes states come and go, but nations dont. And nation states are stable because they dont have sub-nations who want to separate. The UK, being multi-national, has seperatists movement. Germany being a nation state does not.

    Germany does have separatist movements, they're just not as strong as in other nations. Bavaria has a party that wants to bring back the Bavarian monarchy, Friesland has a movement that wants to split from both Germany and the Netherlands to form an independent state, etc.

    Nearly every nation today is an amalgamation or a part of previous nations, that were just as artificial.

    Yes, people did exist before nations, I never claimed they didn't?


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    #96
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    server down wrote: »
    If you are finding this difficult look to our neighbour. In international competitions the Scottish, Welsh and English have seperate national teams. They belong to one State.

    And here I was thinking that was simply because they each had founded a football association independently and never agreed to join.

    And what about Northern Ireland in that scenario?


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    #97
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    It's those tidy towns bastards with their civic pride that are the dangerous ones. One day they're planting flowers on the street and the next they've created a city state and plunder a continent.


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    #98
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Shenshen wrote: »
    And here I was thinking that was simply because they each had founded a football association independently and never agreed to join.

    No, the FA existed before the IFA, SFA and FAW. For ten years or so.

    Anyway why would the Scottish break away from the FA ( or even found their own to begin with) unless they considered themselves different enough to do so? Why not stay in a UK interntional and league?

    Anyway the footie is just one example. Do you think Scotland is a nation? It clearly isnt a State.
    And what about Northern Ireland in that scenario?

    I already said that Northern Ireland had two competing nationalities. It's not a nation state ( it is part of the UK State) but were it its own country it wouldnt be a nation state either. It would be a mess.


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    #99
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    server down wrote: »
    YOu would need to create an unmodifable constitution for the world government, before creating the government. And this constitution would legalise gay marriage in (the country formally known as) Saudi Arabia, and across the middle east? Good luck with that.



    I mean that ship has sailed. Its one of the reasons why Irish people dont defend their culture much. There isnt one.

    Go back 100, 200 years and how many would have thought gay marriage would be legalised anywhere?


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    #100
    AMKC
    Registered Users Posts: 15,735 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Ulysses Gaze wrote: »
    Humans would kick the **** out of each other regardless of whether there were open or closed borders.

    It is in our DNA.

    This Socialist concept of the "Brotherhood of Man" where everyone lives in peace and harmony is a myth.

    It will never happen.

    I don't believe that at all. There is good in everyone we are not born to hate people are thought it unfortunately. When that stops the Human race will learn to live together as one race no matter our colour, our gender or the piece of land we are on or our sexuality. It might not happen in our lifetime but I do believe it will happen but it might take a terrible war for it too happen for humans to see how stupid and wrong they were fighting over stupid and things that don,t do them any harm and to start working together as one race for the betterment of the human race so we can go out into space and find new worlds and lifeforms to share our uniqueness with and to learn from them and there culture and way of doing things.


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    #101
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    AMKC wrote:
    I don't believe that at all. There is good in everyone we are not born to hate people are thought it unfortunately. When that stops the Human race will learn to live together as one race no matter our colour, our gender or the piece of land we are on or our sexuality. It might not happen in our lifetime but I do believe it will happen but it might take a terrible war for it too happen for humans to see how stupid and wrong they were fighting over stupid and things that don,t do them any harm and to start working together as one race for the betterment of the human race so we can go out into space and find new worlds and lifeforms to share our uniqueness with and to learn from them and there culture and way of doing things.


    Actually humans are going to be fighting even more as resources get scarcer.


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    #102
    AMKC
    Registered Users Posts: 15,735 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Actually humans are going to be fighting even more as resources get scarcer.

    Maybe short term but long term we need to start going into space and colonising other worlds as well as finding new resources in space and that can only benefit humans.
    There is lots of resources in space on asteroids and on the moons of many of the worlds and even on our own moon. Its just a matter of mining and processing them all so we can use them.


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    #103
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    AMKC wrote:
    Maybe short term but long term we need to start going into space and colonising other worlds as well as finding new resources in space and that can only benefit humans. There is lots of resources in space on asteroids and on the moons of many of the worlds and even on our own moon. Its just a matter of mining and processing them all so we can use them.


    I like Star Trek aswell but it's not real.


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    #104
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    AMKC wrote: »
    I don't believe that at all. There is good in everyone we are not born to hate people are thought it unfortunately. When that stops the Human race will learn to live together as one race no matter our colour, our gender or the piece of land we are on or our sexuality. It might not happen in our lifetime but I do believe it will happen but it might take a terrible war for it too happen for humans to see how stupid and wrong they were fighting over stupid and things that don,t do them any harm and to start working together as one race for the betterment of the human race so we can go out into space and find new worlds and lifeforms to share our uniqueness with and to learn from them and there culture and way of doing things.

    Ahh Utopia...aint going to happen. Btw you might wish to adopt the more frequent use of the full stop - the highlighted sentence is unreadable.

    Humans are animals at the end of the day and will continue to 'fight over stupid things'. More likley we will wipe ourselves out before we ever get around to fighting over the resources in space. Interestingly that is exactly what is already starting to happen.

    See:

    [url]ttp://nationalpost.com/opinion/war-in-space-is-increasingly-possible-that-would-be-terrible-for-everyone[/url]

    I really do hope that some poor unsuspecting alien really doesn't get "to share our uniqueness" lol....


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