Advice for child with RE exemption

Stallingrad

My daughter attends a Catholic school and is in 2nd year. By agreement with the Principal she has an exemption from RE.

Until recently she was allowed to study and do homework in that class, while the other kids did their RE.

She is now being told she can no longer do homework or schoolwork and must read, and only read FICTION. We are angry that our child is effectively being told not to engage in any kind learning while in this class.

Can anyone advise if the school can put these conditions on a child with an exemption, and do the DES have any specific guidelines in relation to what an exempt child in class can or cannot do?

Very much appreciated.

Hitman3000

Stallingrad wrote:

Can anyone advise if the school can put these conditions on a child with an exemption, and do the DES have any specific guidelines in relation to what an exempt child in class can or cannot do?

Who is saying your child must only read fiction? Religion teacher or Principle?

GritBiscuit

Who gave the caveat and what reason did they give?

Have you asked for a meeting with the principal to ask why the goalposts have changed?

amcalester

Get her to read the Bible.

Stallingrad

The teacher. He was fine with her doing other work until now, but another teacher in the school is more militant with their class and this has now fed into my child's class. The Principal seems to be standing over this new policy.

I am going to challenge it but would like to know where I stand first.

Hotblack Desiato

Dept of Education are supposed to be working on new guidelines for children opting out, but who knows how long that'll be. In the meantime you could look up Teach don't preach which is a site run by Atheist Ireland and maybe contact them. But for the moment it's ultimately up to the principal (unless you can somehow convince the board of management to change the policy.)

Hitman3000

Stallingrad wrote:

The teacher. He was fine with her doing other work until now, but another teacher in the school is more militant with their class and this has now fed into my child's class. The Principal seems to be standing over this new policy.

If you haven't done so, talk to the Principle. If it's a new policy ask for a copy of same.

Hitman3000

amcalester wrote:

Get her to read the Bible.

I see what you did there. Well done.

GritBiscuit

Stallingrad wrote: »

The teacher. He was fine with her doing other work until now, but another teacher in the school is more militant with their class and this has now fed into my child's class. The Principal seems to be standing over this new policy.

I am going to challenge it but would like to know where I stand first.

As it was a good will gesture on behalf of the principal to begin with, he has the ultimate authority as to whether to stand over your original agreement or not...definitely worth challenging, it doesn't seem reasonable to grant an exemption and then later attach conditions, particular ones as arbitrary as limiting the choice of reading material your child is permitted to read in the class.

Either she has an exemption or she doesn't - anything else smacks of personal agenda and petty vendetta on the part of the teacher...who I suspect is picturing other students seeing the added benefits to using the class for homework and study of other subjects and is now working out of pure self-interest...

lazygal

Tell your daughter to do her homework/study.
Have a chat with the principal and follow it up with a written reply stating what your daughter will do during these classes (study, homework, read the latest copy of ALIVE!) and that under no circumstances is this to be challenged with your daughter, that if there is an issue you are to be telephoned. Ask for written confirmation that this has been received by the school.

looksee

Have her read Harry Potter, its well written so will be worthwhile, but all the magic and demons will totally aggravate the religion teachers.

branie2

Or The Hobbit, or Lord of the Rings trilogy

MrPudding

This irritates me. Banning kids from doing something contrustive during an otherwise unconstructive and worthless class has come up a couple of times now. It really is disgraceful.

If other parents are annoyed that a child with an exemption is getting some kind of advantage, then they are perfectly entitled to get an exemption for their child too.

MrP

smacl

MrPudding wrote: »

If other parents are annoyed that a child with an exemption is getting some kind of advantage, then they are perfectly entitled to get an exemption for their child too

I reckon this is exactly what has religious patrons and parents rattled hence the push to close it off. A bit like mass attendances once people realised mass is not obligatory.

robindch

Stallingrad wrote: »

We are angry that our child is effectively being told not to engage in any kind learning while in this class.

Can't blame you as the intention seems to be to inflame the situation, rather than resolve it peacefully. Some religious view it as their divinely-mandated duty to force their religious views upon other people, regardless of the consequences, or of the fairness of their power relationship.

Easiest option is to write to the principal, outlining the previous derogation and then ask them to confirm the new policy in writing. And while that's going on, contact the Teach Don't Preach website and see what your constitutional and other rights are. Written confirmation of the old and new policies should constitute a fairly clear case of discrimination under the constitution, if not the law, and a pleasant letter from a solicitor should do the trick then - if it hasn't already been resolved peacefully before then.

robindch

Another option - much harder to manage and with an unpredictable outcome - would be to speak with the other parents or kids in the class, and as soon as class starts, all the kids take out an identical copy of Harry Potter or whatever and everybody starts reading peacefully and entirely ignoring the teacher.

Peaceful, polite, mass disobedience can be a powerful tool.

spacecoyote

I'd say go with Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials series. A more unsubtle dig at the class.

Or even better, get the sleeve off a His Dark Materials book, cover your child's school books with them. That way he can carry on doing schoolwork whilst also having a little protest

happywithlife

'RE teacher here
Could be several things at play
First of all 're the no homework - I've certainly come across this as if the others see Johnny getting homework done suddenly you may end up with 5 more knocking on the principals door - which they are entitled to do of course but it can quickly make a class unmanageable if those students don't have the skill set to work quietly on their own. Hence a study but no homework approach may be adopted by the school
It sounds as if there has been some discussion with staff and a decision made to tighten up their policy - it may have been one that developed ad hoc and worked fine when it was the odd one/two but if it's become more widespread then it may have needed tightening up. Schools have to have free reign to adapt to their needs though consultation with the wider school community may have been beneficial- but then that may well have happened - who's to know if the parents council aren't on board with this change?
As to thus particular initiative- sounds like the school ate trying to promote reading - always worthwhile. If you object to the fiction element and rather your child be allowed to read something else why not consult with the teacher / principal and come to an agreement?
I can assure you the average teacher has enough to be doing without arguring with your child over their choice of reading material (allowing it's age appropriate and not suitable for school etc)

looksee

There are some entertaining ideas here, but really this is the parents' fight, not the children's. This should be sorted at parent/teacher/department level and the agreed solution passed on to the child with no acrimony or triumphalism.

MrPudding

happywithlife wrote: »

'RE teacher here
Could be several things at play
First of all 're the no homework - I've certainly come across this as if the others see Johnny getting homework done suddenly you may end up with 5 more knocking on the principals door - which they are entitled to do of course but it can quickly make a class unmanageable if those students don't have the skill set to work quietly on their own. Hence a study but no homework approach may be adopted by the school

Then perhaps you should consider not wasting the children's time with a worthless subject, then all the students can learn something worthwhile that will actually benefit then, and you won't need to worry about children not being able to work on their own.

Seriously, that we have this discussion, in 2017, is shameful.

MrP

looksee

happywithlife wrote: »

'RE teacher here
Could be several things at play
First of all 're the no homework - I've certainly come across this as if the others see Johnny getting homework done suddenly you may end up with 5 more knocking on the principals door - which they are entitled to do of course but it can quickly make a class unmanageable if those students don't have the skill set to work quietly on their own. Hence a study but no homework approach may be adopted by the school

These same children will, however, have the skill set to read fiction quietly, even without the incentive of having got their homework done?

smacl

happywithlife wrote: »

'RE teacher here
Could be several things at play
First of all 're the no homework - I've certainly come across this as if the others see Johnny getting homework done suddenly you may end up with 5 more knocking on the principals door -

This does beg the question though whether RE should be an optional subject if there are many students that feel their time would be better spent doing homework. We actually see the flipside of this in my daughter's school where the RE teacher is fine with students quietly doing their homework in the class when they're under pressure. In her leaving cert year with an eye on points and a busy day, my daughter really appreciates this attitude. Imho, there's a huge amount to be said for looking after the best interests of the individual student first, and I'm grateful for her RE teacher taking this stance despite the rules.

PokeHerKing

Stallingrad wrote:

My daughter attends a Catholic school and is in 2nd year. By agreement with the Principal she has an exemption from RE.

Why did you send your kid to a Catholic school if you/she had an issue with an RE class?

spacecoyote

Do schools require that you do RE at senior level? I went to a christian brothers school & religion was dropped as a subject for fifth & sixth year. Even in transition year it was thought as a world religions course and I don't think it was run for the full school year

shopper2011

I can understand why students excempt from RE no longer allow todo homework during this time as its meant to be done at home, under parents supervision. furthermore a large group of children finishing homework early or with nothing todo can become very disruptive very quickly. Some would say out of controll.
I think reading a book during an excempt class is an excellent idea. In fact every child should have access to books or a kindle. I doubt the Fiction only is a rule but more likely a misunderstanding somewhere. If the books were on a kindle, I think that it would be difficult to check. Do you think maybe they are asked to read the required reading for subject English maybe? and it was communicated poorly to you?

Literacy levels in this country are below OECD average yet the OP has a problem with their child being encouraged to read. Fiction is fun, brings on a love for reading.

Hitman3000

PokeHerKing wrote:

Why did you send your kid to a Catholic school if you/she had an issue with an RE class?

Parents are spoilt for choice with the various ethos schools in Ireland operate under. Every town and village has an educate together school... oh wait they don't.

looksee

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Why did you send your kid to a Catholic school if you/she had an issue with an RE class?

This ridiculous question, which has been done to death and is no longer worth arguing is getting annoying. It may get to the stage where we have to - oh maybe ban it?

If you want an answer read some of the numerous and lengthy threads on the subject, but we are not doing it again here.

MrPudding

shopper2011 wrote: »

I can understand why students excempt from RE no longer allow todo homework during this time as its meant to be done at home, under parents supervision. furthermore a large group of children finishing homework early or with nothing todo can become very disruptive very quickly. Some would say out of controll.
I think reading a book during an excempt class is an excellent idea. In fact every child should have access to books or a kindle. I doubt the Fiction only is a rule but more likely a misunderstanding somewhere. If the books were on a kindle, I think that it would be difficult to check. Do you think maybe they are asked to read the required reading for subject English maybe? and it was communicated poorly to you?

This is utter bollox. If the kids are capable of doing the homework then they should be able to. If the quality of the work that they are doing without parental supervision is not good enough, then the teachers can have a word.

I would guess that the only reasons for this are:

1 - Sour grapes. The teacher realises they are basically wasting their life, and know they are wasting there students time. They feel insecure because some of the parents have clearly copped on to how worthless their life's work is, so they are trying to make sure the kids continue to waste their time.
2- Some other parents, who have not copped onto the monumental waste of time that RE is, are having conniptions because some other kids has a perceived advantage over their little darling, or simply more sour grapes, because if they have to waste their precious watching Eastenders and drinking cheap prosecco time doing kids homework, then goddamn it so should everyone else.
3- The teachers (the one that have realised their lives are basically wasted) are concerned that allowing one kid to do something useful during what would be an otherwise completely useless, worthless, waste of even a child's time, could lead to the flood gates opening, and before they know it, there won't be any children left to infect with their nonsense.

I am sure there are more possible reasons, but reckon these are probably the most likely.

MrP

Hitman3000

shopper2011 wrote:

I can understand why students excempt from RE no longer allow todo homework during this time as its meant to be done at home, under parents supervision. furthermore a large group of children finishing homework early or with nothing todo can become very disruptive very quickly. Some would say out of controll. I think reading a book during an excempt class is an excellent idea. In fact every child should have access to books or a kindle. I doubt the Fiction only is a rule but more likely a misunderstanding somewhere. If the books were on a kindle, I think that it would be difficult to check. Do you think maybe they are asked to read the required reading for subject English maybe? and it was communicated poorly to you?

My son does evening study or mores to the point he does his homework during this time. The school has no issue with him doing his homework unsupervised but then again it's a service we pay extra for.
You seem to have a low opinion of children and considering it's Secondary school they are more liable to be 14 plus teenagers rather than a bunch of giggly 10 year olds.

shopper2011

MrPudding wrote:

1 - Sour grapes. The teacher realises they are basically wasting their life, and know they are wasting there students time. They feel insecure because some of the parents have clearly copped on to how worthless their life's work is, so they are trying to make sure the kids continue to waste their time. 2- Some other parents, who have not copped onto the monumental waste of time that RE is, are having conniptions because some other kids has a perceived advantage over their little darling, or simply more sour grapes, because if they have to waste their precious watching Eastenders and drinking cheap prosecco time doing kids homework, then goddamn it so should everyone else. 3- The teachers (the one that have realised their lives are basically wasted) are concerned that allowing one kid to do something useful during what would be an otherwise completely useless, worthless, waste of even a child's time, could lead to the flood gates opening, and before they know it, there won't be any children left to infect with their nonsense.

If you feel so strongly, why not home school?

happywithlife

MrPudding wrote: »

Then perhaps you should consider not wasting the children's time with a worthless subject, then all the students can learn something worthwhile that will actually benefit then, and you won't need to worry about children not being able to work on their own.

Seriously, that we have this discussion, in 2017, is shameful. MgMrP

When taught correctly it IS worthwhile! Nothing worse than ignorance!
You are better off making your point to our esteemed minister of ed than the lackey on the ground

happywithlife

MrPudding wrote: »

This is utter bollox. If the kids are capable of doing the homework then they should be able to. If the quality of the work that they are doing without parental supervision is not good enough, then the teachers can have a word.

I would guess that the only reasons for this are:

1 - Sour grapes. The teacher realises they are basically wasting their life, and know they are wasting there students time. They feel insecure because some of the parents have clearly copped on to how worthless their life's work is, so they are trying to make sure the kids continue to waste their time.
2- Some other parents, who have not copped onto the monumental waste of time that RE is, are having conniptions because some other kids has a perceived advantage over their little darling, or simply more sour grapes, because if they have to waste their precious watching Eastenders and drinking cheap prosecco time doing kids homework, then goddamn it so should everyone else.
3- The teachers (the one that have realised their lives are basically wasted) are concerned that allowing one kid to do something useful during what would be an otherwise completely useless, worthless, waste of even a child's time, could lead to the flood gates opening, and before they know it, there won't be any children left to infect with their nonsense.

I am sure there are more possible reasons, but reckon these are probably the most likely.

MrP

A who are you to state anyone is wasting their life?
But you are talking as if every 'RE teacher ONLY teaches RE - Which simply is not the case. The vast majority of 'RE teachers also teach other subjects - in some cases multiple other subjects

MrPudding

shopper2011 wrote: »

If you feel so strongly, why not home school?

Luckily I don't need to. When my kids were in Dublin they went to the French school, which didn't teach nonsense. In the uk we picked non-religious school, and now we are in France, so again no nonsense.

happywithlife wrote: »

When taught correctly it IS worthwhile! Nothing worse than ignorance!
You are better off making your point to our esteemed minister of ed than the lackey on the ground

What does it teach that is worthwhile that could not be taught without the wrapper of nonsense and fiction?

MrP

uck51js9zml2yt

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Why did you send your kid to a Catholic school if you/she had an issue with an RE class?

Why shouldn't he?
My son is in an RC school and doesn't do RE. He goes to the principals office and does homework.

MrPudding

happywithlife wrote: »

A who are you to state anyone is wasting their life?
But you are talking as if every 'RE teacher ONLY teaches RE - Which simply is not the case. The vast majority of 'RE teachers also teach other subjects - in some cases multiple other subjects

If you spend your life teaching a nonsense subject, which re is, then by definition, you are wasting your life.

MrP

happywithlife

MrPudding wrote: »

Luckily I don't need to. When my kids were in Dublin they went to the French school, which didn't teach nonsense. In the uk we picked non-religious school, and now we are in France, so again no nonsense.

What does it teach that is worthwhile that could not be taught without the wrapper of nonsense and fiction?
MrP

Empathy and respect for a start
Remember I said i teach 'RE- please don't confuse that for mere catechetics as you seem to be doing.

MrPudding

happywithlife wrote: »

Empathy and respect for a start
Remember I said i teach 'RE- please don't confuse that for mere catechetics as you seem to be doing.

Is that a clever little dig, or do you genuinely believe that empathy and respect can only be taught when wrapped in nonsense?

MrP

shopper2011

happywithlife wrote:

When taught correctly it IS worthwhile! Nothing worse than ignorance!

Couldnt agree more. Ignorance is the problem here.

MrPudding

shopper2011 wrote: »

Couldnt agree more. Ignorance is the problem here.

Please, do enlighten me and rescue me from my ignorance. Please tell me something that is taught in RE that can only be taught in the context of teaching children made up nonsense.

MrP

shopper2011

Mr Pudding

Everybody has the ability to hold strong opinions and beliefs. Your opinions and beliefs are as strong as some religous groups faith. To understand your beliefs is to understand why you behave the way you behave. To understand the Islamic faith and other faiths would give an insight into why they behave the way they behave.
Ignorance or lack of interest or empathy leads to misunderstanding, suspicion and fear. Fear can lead to violence.
RE is the study of Religion, not fiction.

To chose a lack of an understanding of other peoples strong beliefs or faiths. Even dismissing other peoples strong beliefs (you have strong beliefs too) leads to very bad places. History has taught us this.

looksee

shopper2011 - you are posting in the Atheism and Agnosticism forum. The argument from the forum side is that religion IS a fiction. That is basic to the forum and is going to be argued. All the rest of your argument could easily be turned round on you, indeed religions are much more likely to deal with each other violently on the basis of 'dismissing other people's strong beliefs'. History has taught us this.

PokeHerKing

MrPudding wrote:

If you spend your life teaching a nonsense subject, which re is, then by definition, you are wasting your life.

To be fair if you're happy then you're life is not wasted. You guys get fairly bent out of shape over a fairy tale.

Did you tell your kid about Santa or the tooth fairy?

Yous are as bad as religious nuts. Find more important things to get worked up about.

Hitman3000

shopper2011 wrote:

RE is the study of Religion, not fiction.

All religion is fiction and not particularly well wrote fiction if the bible /Koran/Torah is anything to go by.

GritBiscuit

PokeHerKing wrote: »

To be fair if you're happy then you're life is not wasted. You guys get fairly bent out of shape over a fairy tale.

Did you tell your kid about Santa or the tooth fairy?

Yous are as bad as religious nuts. Find more important things to get worked up about.

How much genital mutilation, homophobia and institutionalised child abuse have santa or the tooth fairy been responsible for? Not all fiction is equal...

MrPudding

shopper2011 wrote: »

Mr Pudding

Everybody has the ability to hold strong opinions and beliefs. Your opinions and beliefs are as strong as some religous groups faith. To understand your beliefs is to understand why you behave the way you behave. To understand the Islamic faith and other faiths would give an insight into why they behave the way they behave.
Ignorance or lack of interest or empathy leads to misunderstanding, suspicion and fear. Fear can lead to violence.
RE is the study of Religion, not fiction.

To chose a lack of an understanding of other peoples strong beliefs or faiths. Even dismissing other peoples strong beliefs (you have strong beliefs too) leads to very bad places. History has taught us this.

So just to be clear, does this mean you can't tell me something useful that is taught in RE that could not be taught without being wrapped in nonsense, or just that you won't?

MrP

dr.fuzzenstein

When I was a wee lad my School did have several options.
There was catholic and protestand RE and as an alternative there was ethics.
That was Germany in the early 80's. I am hoping that one day educational facilitis in Ireland might be dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century (nevermind the 21st).

tedpan

Loved RE at school, it was a chance for everyone to either do their homework or doss.

kylith

shopper2011 wrote: »

If you feel so strongly, why not home school?

Because every atheist can afford to give up work and has the skillset to homeschool :rolleyes:

happywithlife wrote: »

Empathy and respect for a start
Remember I said i teach 'RE- please don't confuse that for mere catechetics as you seem to be doing.

And can empathy and respect (religion, respect :rolleyes:, can't even respect a child's desire to learn) only be taught in a religion class? Would an ethics class not be a better, more inclusive option?

Samaris

Religion as I was taught it was rather a waste of time, but it seems unreasonable to be having such a go at RE teachers, Mr. Pudding.

Firstly, as it was pointed out, many teachers have RE teaching as a side subject (and I have a massive bone to pick with teacher training in Ireland having the amount of focus on religious training that it does, but that's not the fault of individuals.) It's also pretty rude to go on about about wasting their lives, which was a bit all-guns-blazing for a personal opinion about a stranger's life based on very little info about them.

As for what can be taught in a religion class that can't be taught in other subjects, it depends how it is taught. An understanding of religions and culture is valuable compared to indoctrination in one religion and catechism and the rest of it. Morality and how morality is developed - often, but by no means invariably through a cultural lens heavily influenced by a religion - is also a valuable understanding (and might at least ensure people can identify a Sikh from a Muslim, which appears to be amazingly difficult to many people). How culture and religion combine to create elements of national or group identity and why various religions have not gotten on and even how different cultures have gotten different religious histories, mythologies and messages from ultimately very similar source material about the same. And indeed why some people don't believe at all. How certain power structures form, which is not restricted to religion, but it has a fair few examples.

I'm not saying that this is how religion is generally taught here, but they could be positives. Also not saying that it has to be through RE, there are elements of history, geography, liturature and whatever Civics is called now. But there is enough there that it would probably allow for scheduled time rather than shoehorning it into other subjects with their own timetables and topics to get through.

It would certainly be of more use than learning to drone Ar nAthair phonetically.


Edit; also the 'if you don't like religion, just homeschool' argument is tired, impactical and rather childish. Bring back Sunday Schools for dedicated How To Catholic teaching if you want and keep schooling in facts neutral.

smacl

shopper2011 wrote: »

Mr Pudding

Everybody has the ability to hold strong opinions and beliefs. Your opinions and beliefs are as strong as some religous groups faith. To understand your beliefs is to understand why you behave the way you behave. To understand the Islamic faith and other faiths would give an insight into why they behave the way they behave.
Ignorance or lack of interest or empathy leads to misunderstanding, suspicion and fear. Fear can lead to violence.
RE is the study of Religion, not fiction.

To chose a lack of an understanding of other peoples strong beliefs or faiths. Even dismissing other peoples strong beliefs (you have strong beliefs too) leads to very bad places. History has taught us this.

That's all well and good, but RE as taught in a Catholic ethos school makes the rather unfortunate presumption that the beliefs held by those of the Catholic faith are correct and those which are contradictory are incorrect. This leads to just the type of misunderstanding and bad will you're talking about. Worse still, RE taught in many religious ethos schools also includes elements of faith formation which is unreasonable to impose on those who are not members of that faith. As has been discussed and documented ad nauseam on these forums, this is a violation of the pupils and their parents humans rights.

uck51js9zml2yt

smacl wrote: »

That's all well and good, but RE as taught in a Catholic ethos school makes the rather unfortunate presumption that the beliefs held by those of the Catholic faith are correct and those which are contradictory are incorrect. This leads to just the type of misunderstanding and bad will you're talking about. Worse still, RE taught in many religious ethos schools also includes elements of faith formation which is unreasonable to impose on those who are not members of that faith. As has been discussed and documented ad nauseam on these forums, this is a violation of the pupils and their parents humans rights.

Parents who have their kids in RC schools who are not RC have a choice in most schools. Like me, they can remove their kid from the class.

As for whoever said all religions were fiction. Those of us who hold to a particular faith would disagree. I'd call that which I didn't agree with something other than fiction.