Is an EV practical with no home or workplace charging?

PickYourName

Especially with the BIK change introduced for next year, I’m seriously considering getting an all-electric car – I’ve run a 2008 Prius happily for the last 5 years.

In many ways I’m an ideal candidate for one: an average of maybe 300 kms/week, mostly within (or occasionally on) the M50, very rarely venturing further than 150 kms on a single trip.

However, I’ve no driveway and charging at work is not an option either.

The question is: how practical would it be for me to own an EV?

I’m looking at a BMW i3. If it isn’t practical, I’d probably go for a Mini plug-in hybrid.

What are people's experiences of using the public charging points? Is anyone else using them exclusively?

stesaurus

The Mini phev would be useless to you without home charging. What would be the point?
If you can't get a home charger then stick twith the normal hybrid.

PickYourName

stesaurus wrote: »

The Mini phev would be useless to you without home charging. What would be the point?

Two points: (1) I like the car and (2) Although I've no dedicated work-place charging (and no chance of any) and I'm based at home for work, on most days I have to visit a secondary site in town, which is very close to a public charging point that is currently invariably free, so I could probably get by with about 80% electric-only use with a PHEV. However, it's not the end of the world if there are issues with the public chargers in a PHEV, hence my question: how realistic is it to rely on it?

mordeith

Sounds like a nightmare. I couldn't live without a home charger and that's with two public chargers within 10km (no fast charge though)

stesaurus

You cannot rely on public chargers. Between being blocked by ice vehicles, being offline for long periods and eCars introducing fees next year you'd be mad.
The phev is pointless without a guaranteed chargepoint every night. If you like the car buy a standard version or wait until you can get a chargepoint installed.
You say you don't have a driveway but do you have a dedicated space?

stesaurus

Also you mention you could get by with 80% electrical use? Either you are vastly overestimating the electrical range or you do tiny mileage. Either way a small petrol is the better choice.

PickYourName

stesaurus wrote: »

You cannot rely on public chargers. Between being blocked by ice vehicles, being offline for long periods and eCars introducing fees next year you'd be mad.
The phev is pointless without a guaranteed chargepoint every night. If you like the car buy a standard version or wait until you can get a chargepoint installed.
You say you don't have a driveway but do you have a dedicated space?

No dedicated space - it's resident's parking, though we generally get a spot directly outside: I don't think that's viable, though. A possibility might be the laneway at the back of the house, but that needs further investigation.
80% electric for a PHEV is probably an overestimate: probably better said as most week-days would be electric only.
Is the eCars charge point map acurate in terms of where it shows availability?
Also, are there any details of fees to be intriduced anywhere?
I'd be really curious to know if anyone else is out there who doesn't have home/workplace charging, and how they've got on.

stesaurus

PickYourName wrote: »

No dedicated space - it's resident's parking, though we generally get a spot directly outside: I don't think that's viable, though. A possibility might be the laneway at the back of the house, but that needs further investigation.
80% electric for a PHEV is probably an overestimate: probably better said as most week-days would be electric only.
Is the eCars charge point map acurate in terms of where it shows availability?
Also, are there any details of fees to be intriduced anywhere?
I'd be really curious to know if anyone else is out there who doesn't have home/workplace charging, and how they've got on.

Look into being allocated a defined space and getting a pedestal type charger. Talk to residents committee or management company.

Hard to find specs on the car. What size is the battery? I think it states 42km range so real life you'd need to at least half that. Still manage the week with that range?

No info in charges yet. Last year when they tried they had one subscription option. Think it was €15 a month for access to the public SCPs you'd require. Which is maybe ok if you are guaranteed to be able to use a charger but you won't be. It would be an excercise in frustration

BoatMad

note the BIK reduction only applies to BEVs not hybrids or PHEVS

secondly on the small mileage you do, what is the reason you are considering a BEV

PickYourName

BoatMad wrote: »

note the BIK reduction only applies to BEVs not hybrids or PHEVS

secondly on the small mileage you do, what is the reason you are considering a BEV

I was aware about the BIK reduction applying only to BEV: it's the main reason I'm considering one. For anyone who can avail of it, 0% BIK is a huge benefit.

At the moment, my car is fully paid for, so paying for a new one will come out of a marginal increase in pay. In simple terms, to get a new car costing say €30k would cost my employer €60k, however it is done (assuming a marginal tax rate of about 50%, which it is). At 0% BIK, it would cost €30k, as there's no tax to pay.

I had more or less decided on getting the Mini PHEV, having run a Prius happliy for a few years (just the regular version, not the PHEV version). However, the BIK change suddenly makes the BMW i3 very attractive. In fact, if I had the ability to install a home charger, I'd almost certainly go for it. Hence my original question, though: how viable is it to run one using just the public charging points?

n97 mini

PickYourName wrote: »

how viable is it to run one using just the public charging points?

As stated above, it's not. Between broken charge points, blocked spaces and queues for some CPs, you'd be driven demented.

BoatMad

PickYourName wrote: »

I was aware about the BIK reduction applying only to BEV: it's the main reason I'm considering one. For anyone who can avail of it, 0% BIK is a huge benefit.

At the moment, my car is fully paid for, so paying for a new one will come out of a marginal increase in pay. In simple terms, to get a new car costing say €30k would cost my employer €60k, however it is done (assuming a marginal tax rate of about 50%, which it is). At 0% BIK, it would cost €30k, as there's no tax to pay.

I had more or less decided on getting the Mini PHEV, having run a Prius happliy for a few years (just the regular version, not the PHEV version). However, the BIK change suddenly makes the BMW i3 very attractive. In fact, if I had the ability to install a home charger, I'd almost certainly go for it. Hence my original question, though: how viable is it to run one using just the public charging points?

just be careful here

the car must be in the companies name , you cannot forgo salary to buy a personal car, that would be taxed in the normal way , via income tax , hence the comparison you make is not correct , a company buying a company car, which is provided to you costs the company 30 K irrespective of BIK

You on the other hand then get 30% of the OMSP added to your income as a " cash equivalent ", less any mitigating amount of business mileage , then you pay tax on that amount at your marginal rate

hence it nothing like 60k too get 30K car, in no case do you " get " a car

Its not really viable to run an EV using on public charging. you will will find it difficult to access them at times and they will be expensive to use

PickYourName

BoatMad wrote: »

just be careful here

the car must be in the companies name , you cannot forgo salary to buy a personal car, that would be taxed in the normal way , via income tax , hence the comparison you make is not correct , a company buying a company car, which is provided to you costs the company 30 K irrespective of BIK

You on the other hand then get 30% of the OMSP added to your income as a " cash equivalent ", less any mitigating amount of business mileage , then you pay tax on that amount at your marginal rate

hence it nothing like 60k too get 30K car, in no case do you " get " a car

You're correct in relation to how BIK works, but in practice the simplification makes very little difference.

At the moment, I don’t have a company car. If I want to go out and buy a car for €30k (with my own cash), my employer will have to pay me an additional €60k.

Alternatively, next year, they can spend half that on a BEV and give it to me to drive. I end up driving the same €30k car, but it’s cost my employer €30k rather than €60k. This was the logic I used.

A fairer comparison would take into account how BIK actually works. If the company buys a regular car for €30k and gives it to me, as you say I have to pay tax on 30% of the OMSP, or €9k. At a marginal rate of 50%, this is an extra €4.5k I have to find. If I want my take-home pay to be the same, this will cost my employer the full €9k, in order for me to have cash to pay the additional tax. This is paid every year, so over say three years it will cost my employer an additional €27k. If I keep if for another year, it is another €9k.

This is the reason company cars no longer make financial sense if there is no actual business mileage.

The bottom line is that 0% BIK is a huge benefit if it can be availed of.

Pique

You're assuming your employer will go along with this for no benefit to them and tons of benefit to you.

PickYourName

Pique wrote: »

You're assuming your employer will go along with this for no benefit to them and tons of benefit to you.

True, but whilst there's no benefit to the employer, there's no disadvantage either.

In practice, most company cars are leased, so the payment is spread out evenly. If the lease payment is €500/month, it makes no odds to the employer what kind of car is provided.

If it's a BEV next year, there's nothing additional for either company or employee to pay. Otherwise, there is €9k extra gross that has to be paid by the employer every year to cover the BIK liability of the employee, for the example I used.

There are plenty of companies around that would conisder doing this:anything that provides a very significant benefit to an employee at no additional cost to the employer is always going to be positively received.

Pique

I admire your optimism. Fwiw, if it works, can I send you my CV?

liamog

Realistically, surviving on public charging only in Dublin is doable.
There are a number of people around the area who do it. I met a good few of them regularly at FCPs before we got our path side charging point installed.

You should aim to buy a car with the longest range you can. You'll have a different charging profile to most of the posters here.
You'll come to find that supermarkets are ideal places for rapid chargers for people in your situation.
Fortunately most of the Irish EV owners avoid these as they get frustrated when their longer journeys are disrupted by other users of the system.

I'd be planning on a full charge costing €7 for 25kWh and enjoying the fact it's a free ride for the moment.

PickYourName

liamog wrote: »

Realistically, surviving on public charging only in Dublin is doable.
There are a number of people around the area who do it. I met a good few of them regularly at FCPs before we got our path side charging point installed.

You should aim to buy a car with the longest range you can. You'll have a different charging profile to most of the posters here.
You'll come to find that supermarkets are ideal places for rapid chargers for people in your situation.
Fortunately most of the Irish EV owners avoid these as they get frustrated when their longer journeys are disrupted by other users of the system.

I'd be planning on a full charge costing €7 for 25kWh and enjoying the fact it's a free ride for the moment.

Thanks - that's really useful. I live about 3 kms from the centre of Dublin, and mostly drive in and around the city. I've been keeping an eye out and the charging point at Earlsfort Terrace (near where I work) almost invariably has spaces. I see from the charge point map there's a rapid charger where I used to do the weekly shop, and I could do so at the same location again.

I guess I've a few main concerns:

- If EVs become a lot more popular (and the BIK concession may just do this), a lot more pressure could be placed on the charging network. This is my biggest concern.

- Charges could be high when introduced. I’d be less concerned about this, and policy is to encourage use and likely to remain so. But maybe I’m naïve in this thinking?

- Is it realistic to get by with say one rapid charge and a couple of top-up slower charges per week? I suspect must people do the same with EVs as with phones: get into the habit of plugging them into the home (or workplace) charger every night regardless (but I could be wrong on that?). Because of this, maybe not many people know the answer to this?

- Is a realistic range for the i3 around 200kms for the type of driving I do (mostly start/stop at or below 60 kms/hr).

One question: when you say “before we got our path side charging point installed”, was this on a public road, and was this something you instigated?

liamog

Pressure on the charging network will turn into more public rapid chargers installed.
We're likely to see multiple networks, the strategic eCars network, and private operators will start entering the market.
At first it will be free chargers at Lidl, then fast food locations. Basically places that want you to spend 30/40 mins with them.

We do around 425km a week in the Ioniq. We were Rapid Charging 2/3 times a week. If we were anywhere for a couple of hours and there was a slow charger available we'd plug in, but used this as a way to skip fast chargers instead of as a planned charge.

We were able to charge on a Sunday evening, and would need to charge again on a Thursday night. We'd usually drive a fair bit on a Saturday so would rapid at least once. On Sundays we always go to the cinema so would find a slow charger and use the Sunday free parking to fully charge on a slow.

Here's the thread with the details for my charger, the TLDR, public estate (but not taken in charge), install pathside charger next to on-road parking outside my house.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057776204

TLDR Public Road in Managed Estate that's not taken in charge, so

PickYourName

Thanks, that's all very useful information. Based on what you say, I would probably get away with one rapid charge (timed to happen at a weekly supermarket shop) and a couple of slower ones per week, which would be perfectly acceptable.

That's a great solution you have, but sadly I suspect that Dublin City Council would be a lot less amenable than your management company.... :rolleyes:

I'm inclined to think that in the short to medium term charging will become easier rather than more difficult, and whilst no doubt free charging will end, it will be priced at a level that's at the very least competitive with diesel & petrol.

For now, there seems to be more than adequate capacity at the chargers I’d be likely to use, though I'll have to start paying more sttention to them to confirm this.

In the longer term, if there is to be a widespread adoption of EVs, the overall taxation model of private transport will clearly have to change: it’s anyone’s guess as to how that will pan out.

PickYourName

Pique wrote: »

I admire your optimism. Fwiw, if it works, can I send you my CV?

Perhaps I should have mentioned, I'm married to the owner of the company I work for....

Without home charging EV ownership is a lot more difficult, only thing I'd suggest here is to get a 2 or 3 day test drive and see for yourself whether you can live with it or not.

What I would suggest is getting the 40 Kwh 2018 Nissan Leaf, with it's larger battery it should give you a lot more time before you need to recharge. 40 mins to 80% isn't bad at all considering it can take my 2015 40 mins on a cold battery to get to 80% from 18% low battery warning. My battery has half the storage.

I3 is a good option and a great car to drive the Rex allows you to go pretty much anywhere, if you're on a long motorway run you have the option to stop or not, if a charger is broken or got 2 people waiting to charge then you can simply drive on and is a good option until the charging network improves.

liamog

DCC are one of the worst councils when it comes to EV usage, so I don't you think you'd get very far.

I agree with Mad_Lads suggestion to try an extend test drive.

I would question anyone who claims surviving on the public network is difficult and ask them how long they did it for.
I had a chat with a guy at rapid once, he told me it's impossible to use an EV without home charging. We'd had our car three months at that point. Then he said he's been telling everyone that EVs were terrible so that he wouldn't have to wait at chargers.

With a 40 Kwh Leaf and a low Km commute it's do-a-ble, 40 mins to 80% which should take you 180-200 Kms or more with City driving.

PickYourName

liamog wrote: »

DCC are one of the worst councils when it comes to EV usage, so I don't you think you'd get very far.

I think you're dead right there - hence the :rolleyes:

I'm already taking the advice on an extended test drive: I'm hoping to try an i3 out for a couple of days within the next couple of weeks. I had a quick run in one the other day and I was highly impressed: an amazing machine. I know they're expensive, and had thought it was way outside my league when I first went looking a few months back, but the BIK change makes it financially viable. It reminded me a bit of the 1st series Mercedes A-class I had a few years back in terms of size, packaging and quality, but in a completely different league in terms of driveability.

I think if I had the prospect of home charging it would be a no-brainer. It’s the practicalities of keeping it charged that’s holding me back.

ei9go

Quite possible with a Zoe because you can plug in anywhere and gain 20 kw in an hour.

No dependence on fast chargers.

Otherwise, do you need another headache?

Zoe is slow and small, there are two charging options, 22 Kw only or 22/45 I would never get it without the 45 Kw AC.

Zoe isn't that efficient either, the ioniq gets more or similar range on the motorway.

The 40 Kwh should be more efficient than the current Leaf but we don't know yet.