Falsely charged with careless driving, need help please.

bagels

I'm notorious for my slow driving, rarely passing 55mph on the open road and 20mph in built up areas. A nasty individual has complained to the Gardai that I "drive like a maniac" and now I've been falsely charged with careless driving.

I believe I can beat the charge because there's no way my car can 'speed' within the alleged distance from a standing start while negotiating a ninety-degree bend because its only a couple of dozen yards and my car is quite old with a small engine that happens to be very loud.

I need to be able to provide irrefutable evidence in writing of how quick from zero to 30mph is the 2000-'07 version Opel/Vauxhall Agila 1ltr and how far it can travel in that time, but I don't know how to go about acquiring this information.
I'd be extremely grateful for any guidance anybody can give me. Thanks.

ThisRegard

Is someone winding you up maybe?

PrettyBoy

How are you being charged without any evidence? From what you've told us the only thing the guards are going on is an extremely vague statement made by a member of the public.

looksee

Didn't this get sorted in March, or is the court still messing you about?

bagels

ThisRegard wrote: »

Is someone winding you up maybe?

No, I've already been before the court and entered a Not Guilty plea. The case is scheduled for a full hearing soon.

ThisRegard

bagels wrote: »

No, I've already been before the court and entered a Not Guilty plea. The case is scheduled for a full hearing soon.

What's the backstory? Gardai wouldn't charge you that on just the word of someone?

ED E

ThisRegard wrote: »

What's the backstory? Gardai wouldn't charge you that on just the word of someone?

Yes they can, thats the foundation of the traffic watch procedure. Physical evidence is an add on.

rex-x

Also note you can be charged with carless driving for going to slow too, depending, it doesn't necessarily mean you were speeding

AndrewJRenko

Gardai don't charge you based on a vague complaint. At a minimum, someone will have made a detailed complaint with date/time/location and further details. Before you would be charged, their complaint would be put to you, and you would be invited to give a detailed statement in response. The Garda Supt would them make a decision to prosecute or not based on the two statements.

So have you seen the details of the complaint? I'm sure there would be expert motor engineers who could give a statement about the technical specs of your car at the particular location. If you have a solicitor, they should be able to recommend an engineer.

Rubberchikken

Are the statistics available from opel/Vauxhall?
It seems so unfair that a court case can be brought on the word of someone saying you 'drive like a maniac'. How could that even be quantified.

Toyotafanboi

rex-x wrote: »

Also note you can be charged with carless driving for going to slow too, depending, it doesn't necessarily mean you were speeding

Good point. The charge is careless driving not speeding. You can be (and plenty of people are) slow and careless.

selectamatic

As above you should have already seen the statement and given your own counter statement. It's extremely odd for this to have progressed further than that unless of course there's more to this story we've not heard?

Are you sure it's just one individual whos made a statement if another unconnected individual corroborated the initial complaint with their own similar one then it's more likely to be taken further.

ThisRegard

ED E wrote: »

Yes they can, thats the foundation of the traffic watch procedure. Physical evidence is an add on.

Complainant has to go to court as a witness though. Maybe they did already, I don't know the full story.

F1ngers

bagels wrote: »

I need to be able to provide irrefutable evidence in writing of how quick from zero to 30mph is the 2000-'07 version Opel/Vauxhall Agila 1ltr

I always thought they had to prove your guilt, instead of you proving your innocence.

Innocent until proven guilty.

elperello

I need to be able to provide irrefutable evidence in writing of how quick from zero to 30mph is the 2000-'07 version Opel/Vauxhall Agila 1ltr

The other poster suggested an engineers report. That will cost a lot as they will have to give evidence as well as testing your car.
Technical detail from when a similar car was new will not do.
The question is about your car. Your car could have been modified and capable of better performance.

Whole thing seems like a lot of trouble for Gardai to go to.

bagels

Thank you all for your input. I'm sure you'll all appreciate that I don't want the thread sidetracked but for your benefit I'll explain further.

My 10 month old Granddaughter and I were attacked by dogs whose owner had left off their leash while walking them in the housing estate. We incurred no physical damage apart from my Granddaughter being scared out of her wits and crying hysterically. I suffered a panic attack that lasted an hour or more. The owner wasn't a bit put out until I told her that I'd have her dogs put down if they attacked any member of my Family ever again. I also said I'd report her to the Gardai if I saw her dogs off the leash again.

Two weeks later I was driving through the estate when I saw her partner and her walking with their dogs off the leash again. Words were exchanged and I immediately reported them to the Guard on desk duty at the local station. Several minutes later they covered their asses by phoning the local Garda Station and complained that I'd abused them and threatened to shoot their dogs. They reported that they were very upset and scared of me and that I was speeding around the estate.

Their neighbour conspired with them and phoned the Gardai complaining that I was speeding around the estate.

I am 100% innocent of their allegations.

The Gardai are prosecuting me for a public order offence regarding the incidents involving the dogs and also for careless driving and I'm before the District Court soon for a full hearing.

Its my word against theirs regarding the incidents with the dogs and I hope the Judge will see through their lies.

Regarding the careless driving charge, I can beat it if I have the technical data I seek.

As I said in my opening post I'd be very grateful for your help in acquiring same.

EDIT Maybe I should have mentioned this earlier but I didn't want to complicate matters, I wanted to keep the thread on topic.
When I reported the attack by the dogs to the Gardai, the Garda dealing with the matter made it obvious he wasn't interested so I had words with him and now he's determined to get his pound of flesh. I believe that's why I'm in the mess I'm in now.

DellyBelly

Oh the fact they have a witness saying you were speeding in the estate could have you buggered. Fingers crossed it goes your way anyway

Del2005

bagels wrote: »

Thank you all for your input. I'm sure you'll all appreciate that I don't want the thread sidetracked but for your benefit I'll explain further.

My 10 month old Granddaughter and I were attacked by dogs whose owner had left off their leash while walking them in the housing estate. We incurred no physical damage apart from my Granddaughter being scared out of her wits and crying hysterically. I suffered a panic attack that lasted an hour or more. The owner wasn't a bit put out until I told her that I'd have her dogs put down if they attacked any member of my Family ever again. I also said I'd report her to the Gardai if I saw her dogs off the leash again.

Two weeks later I was driving through the estate when I saw her partner and her walking with their dogs off the leash again. Words were exchanged and I immediately reported them to the Guard on desk duty at the local station. Several minutes later they covered their asses by phoning the local Garda Station and complained that I'd abused them and threatened to shoot their dogs. They reported that they were very upset and scared of me and that I was speeding around the estate.

Their neighbour conspired with them and phoned the Gardai complaining that I was speeding around the estate.

I am 100% innocent of their allegations.

The Gardai are prosecuting me for a public order offence regarding the incidents involving the dogs and also for careless driving and I'm before the District Court soon for a full hearing.

Its my word against theirs regarding the incidents with the dogs and I hope the Judge will see through their lies.

Regarding the careless driving charge, I can beat it if I have the technical data I seek.

As I said in my opening post I'd be very grateful for your help in acquiring same.

What has your solicitor advised? Surely they'd know how to get expert witnesses

Slippin Jimmy

The speed limit is kmph not mph.

dr.fuzzenstein

Slippin Jimmy wrote: »

The speed limit is kmph not mph.

km/h

bagels

DellyBelly wrote: »

Oh the fact they have a witness saying you were speeding in the estate could have you buggered. Fingers crossed it goes your way anyway

Thank you for your good wishes.

punisher5112

Op may I suggest getting a dash cam and also if out walking try and get them on video with likes of a cheap type of go pro as there are so many types out there.

Danbo!

Even with a witness how can a careless driving charge stand up in court without any injury or damage done? A couple of people saying that in their opinion you were driving dangerously, surely you can just say you weren’t. Especially if it’s focussing on speed, there’s no evidence to show you were speeding apart from someone’s opinion.

I may be biased, but I had a collision with a van who was making an illegal turn, without indicating, and all of it on video. Gardai that came to the scene said it was a civil matter for damages as there was no one injured, there was nothing they could do. They wouldn’t even look at the video.

bagels

Del2005 wrote: »

What has your solicitor advised? Surely they'd know how to get expert witnesses

My Solicitor has been provided for me under the Free Legal Aid Scheme. I'm not in a position to afford expert witnesses. What I'm engaged in here is trawling for information that I can't reasonably expect a legal aid solicitor to spend time on. If convicted, there's no point in me complaining afterwards that my solicitor let me down if I haven't bothered to be proactive myself.

bagels

punisher5112 wrote: »

Op may I suggest getting a dash cam and also if out walking try and get them on video with likes of a cheap type of go pro as there are so many types out there.

Thanks, I'll take your advice and get a dashcam in the hope that I can video them walking their dogs off the leash again.

bagels

Danbo! wrote: »

Even with a witness how can a careless driving charge stand up in court without any injury or damage done? A couple of people saying that in their opinion you were driving dangerously, surely you can just say you weren’t. Especially if it’s focussing on speed, there’s no evidence to show you were speeding apart from someone’s opinion.

I may be biased, but I had a collision with a van who was making an illegal turn, without indicating, and all of it on video. Gardai that came to the scene said it was a civil matter for damages as there was no one injured, there was nothing they could do. They wouldn’t even look at the video.

When I reported the attack by the dogs to the Gardai, the Garda dealing with the matter made it obvious he wasn't interested so I had words with him and now he's determined to get his pound of flesh. I believe that's why I'm in the mess I'm in now.

jimmycrackcorm

bagels wrote:

My Solicitor has been provided for me under the Free Legal Aid Scheme. I'm not in a position to afford expert witnesses. What I'm engaged in here is trawling for information that I can't reasonably expect a legal aid solicitor to spend time on. If convicted, there's no point in me complaining afterwards that my solicitor let me down if I haven't bothered to be proactive myself.

If hope at least that your solicitor would be asking the question in court why this charge only occurred after you made a complaint to the Gardai about the behavior of the complainants dogs.

punisher5112

bagels wrote: »

Thanks, I'll take your advice and get a dashcam in the hope that I can video them walking their dogs off the leash again.

There are many many types but I would suggest something decent like ddpai m6 plus, black view or next base.

You can get hard wired in so no mess of cables and will work off ignition on/off.

I feel for you as I had a very similar thing happen to me and it cost me 4 daysvin court having to take off work and paying for a solicitor for those days and attending their office for meetings to do with it.

It was a relief when it was all over as it went on near 2 years.

punisher5112

bagels wrote: »

When I reported the attack by the dogs to the Gardai, the Garda dealing with the matter made it obvious he wasn't interested so I had words with him and now he's determined to get his pound of flesh. I believe that's why I'm in the mess I'm in now.

Call the council and report to dog warden.

I would be going out of my way to come across them while doing so and report each time.

Picture or video evidence would be ideal.

Del2005

bagels wrote: »

My Solicitor has been provided for me under the Free Legal Aid Scheme. I'm not in a position to afford expert witnesses. What I'm engaged in here is trawling for information that I can't reasonably expect a legal aid solicitor to spend time on. If convicted, there's no point in me complaining afterwards that my solicitor let me down if I haven't bothered to be proactive myself.

The solicitor should be doing this for you. If out and out scumbags can get barristers on free legal aid then you deserve better defence. The solicitor isn't doing their job if you are resorting to an Internet forum for your defence.

I wouldn't be focusing on the car I'd be getting the solicitor to pressure the witnesses.

alan partridge aha

bagels wrote: »

When I reported the attack by the dogs to the Gardai, the Garda dealing with the matter made it obvious he wasn't interested so I had words with him and now he's determined to get his pound of flesh. I believe that's why I'm in the mess I'm in now.

You seem to be making a lot of enemies.

AndrewJRenko

bagels wrote: »

My Solicitor has been provided for me under the Free Legal Aid Scheme. I'm not in a position to afford expert witnesses. What I'm engaged in here is trawling for information that I can't reasonably expect a legal aid solicitor to spend time on. If convicted, there's no point in me complaining afterwards that my solicitor let me down if I haven't bothered to be proactive myself.

Were you invited to give a statement on the driving issue before you were charged? What was in their complaint - did they allege breaking a speed limit or what?

bagels

punisher5112 wrote: »

There are many many types but I would suggest something decent like ddpai m6 plus, black view or next base.

You can get hard wired in so no mess of cables and will work off ignition on/off.

I feel for you as I had a very similar thing happen to me and it cost me 4 daysvin court having to take off work and paying for a solicitor for those days and attending their office for meetings to do with it.

It was a relief when it was all over as it went on near 2 years.

Thank you for your advice and empathy. I'm glad you've put your difficulties behind you and have moved on.
I've already had to appear in person on three occasions already whilst the Garda and his witnesses haven't shown their faces in the courtroom yet.
Hopefully justice will be done.

bagels

Del2005 wrote: »

The solicitor should be doing this for you. If out and out scumbags can get barristers on free legal aid then you deserve better defence. The solicitor isn't doing their job if you are resorting to an Internet forum for your defence.

I wouldn't be focusing on the car I'd be getting the solicitor to pressure the witnesses.

Thank you for your kind advice

bagels

alan partridge aha wrote: »

You seem to be making a lot of enemies.

I politely decline to engage in discourse with you

punisher5112

bagels wrote: »

Thank you for your advice and empathy. I'm glad you've put your difficulties behind you and have moved on.
I've already had to appear in person on three occasions already whilst the Garda and his witnesses haven't shown their faces in the courtroom yet.
Hopefully justice will be done.

That's exactly how it went down for me as I had witnesses of my own though and they weren't even called in. Gardai that was prosecuting made up statements and made up all sorts of excuses over each court date.

The last day we were all ready to go in front of judge and he came over looking for my solicitor to say he was looking to get it struck out, he made up an excuse that the witness against me had a best friend die and he had come up to the court to tell him this.....


Now its amazing this had only happened but the a hole never left the court and was already sitting in the corner with the pals for 30 minutes.

I had people waiting inside and out to keep a watch and nobody came to him.

He kept it going for as long as he could to what I can only guess was to cost me work days and a lot of money.

bagels

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Were you invited to give a statement on the driving issue before you were charged? What was in their complaint - did they allege breaking a speed limit or what?

Yes, I was invited to make a statement two months before being charged. They alleged I was speeding and "driving like a maniac", none of which is true.

alan partridge aha

bagels wrote: »

I politely decline to engage in discourse with you

Not a problem, but that's you're issue in that you seem to be rubbing people up the wrong way.

bagels

punisher5112 wrote: »

That's exactly how it went down for me as I had witnesses of my own though and they weren't even called in. Gardai that was prosecuting made up statements and made up all sorts of excuses over each court date.

The last day we were all ready to go in front of judge and he came over looking for my solicitor to say he was looking to get it struck out, he made up an excuse that the witness against me had a best friend die and he had come up to the court to tell him this.....


Now its amazing this had only happened but the a hole never left the court and was already sitting in the corner with the pals for 30 minutes.

I had people waiting inside and out to keep a watch and nobody came to him.

He kept it going for as long as he could to what I can only guess was to cost me work days and a lot of money.

I'm sorry you had to endure all of that.
Unfortunately there are some very nasty Gardai out there whose only use is to blacken the public's opinion of the entire force.
The Garda dealing with this matter made a statement making me out to be a terrible person altogether.
I've never been in a spot of bother in my entire life, no driving convictions or on the spot fines.
I spent years coaching children in sports and other voluntary activities and now I devote myself to my dear Wife, our Grandchildren and rescuing homeless cats and dogs.
And this Garda and his witnesses are going around making me out to be some kind of monster.

Tzardine

I am going to go ahead and call baloney on it.

Every. Single. Word.

I yearn for the old days of trolling.

bagels

alan partridge aha wrote: »

You seem to be making a lot of enemies.

bagels wrote: »

I politely decline to engage in discourse with you

alan partridge aha wrote: »

Not a problem, but that's you're issue in that you seem to be rubbing people up the wrong way.

I take it back, I will discuss the matter with you but just this once and once only, and strictly for your benefit in the hope that you can see that you're doing exactly what you've accused me of, ie "you seem to be rubbing people up the wrong way".

AndrewJRenko

bagels wrote: »

Yes, I was invited to make a statement two months before being charged. They alleged I was speeding and "driving like a maniac", none of which is true.

The first question would be - how did they measure or assess your speed? You won't be charged with speeding by the Gardai unless they have measured your speed with a calibrated speed gun.

Green Peter

Judges are generally very good in this country despite what people say. They will see through whoever is lying in this case. The witness box is a tough place when you are telling the truth but a hell hole when trying to cover a lie!

Isambard

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The first question would be - how did they measure or assess your speed? You won't be charged with speeding by the Gardai unless they have measured your speed with a calibrated speed gun.

it depends what's being alleged, if the witnesses say they were driving madly and erratically, perhaps on the wrong side of the road or driving at the dog guy, then speed isn't relevant. I don't see how we can help the OP without knowing what was alleged and how the OPs driving was careless.

Del2005

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The first question would be - how did they measure or assess your speed? You won't be charged with speeding by the Gardai unless they have measured your speed with a calibrated speed gun.

There's no requirement for a Garda to use a calibrated or functioning speed gun. They can form an opinion either by witnessing it themselves or from witnesses. Too many cases where lost because the Gardai couldn't calibrate the speed guns so they changed the legislation.

AndrewJRenko

Del2005 wrote: »

There's no requirement for a Garda to use a calibrated or functioning speed gun. They can form an opinion either by witnessing it themselves or from witnesses. Too many cases where lost because the Gardai couldn't calibrate the speed guns so they changed the legislation.

Good point, my knowledge of this area is a little dated.

Isambard wrote: »

it depends what's being alleged, if the witnesses say they were driving madly and erratically, perhaps on the wrong side of the road or driving at the dog guy, then speed isn't relevant. I don't see how we can help the OP without knowing what was alleged and how the OPs driving was careless.

OP said that they alleged that he was speeding. I'm questioning how they could have judged his speed against the speed limit.

Isambard

no i think they said he "drove like a maniac" which doesn't necessarily mean he was speeding.

exaisle

bagels wrote: »

I'm notorious for my slow driving, rarely passing 55mph on the open road and 20mph in built up areas.

Why does that make you notorious? Are you the cause of traffic jams or do you refuse to pull in to let faster drivers past? Are you a menace on the road?

Anyhow...you haven't been falsely accused, you've been accused. Whether or not the accusation is false is up to the court...

bagels

exaisle wrote: »

Why does that make you notorious? Are you the cause of traffic jams or do you refuse to pull in to let faster drivers past? Are you a menace on the road?

Anyhow...you haven't been falsely accused, you've been accused. Whether or not the accusation is false is up to the court...

Impatient passengers get pissed off because I don't put the boot down, that's one reason why. Another is when I'm driving in my estate or in the estates of my Grandchildren I drive no faster than 30kph (ie the new limit in housing estates) and that seems to piss off drivers that are stuck up my ass.

I don't cause traffic jams, I always pull over to allow faster drivers, except when in housing estates of course.

I'm not a menace on the road, I've never had a conviction, been to court nor had an on-the-spot fine.

The opinion of a Judge is just that, an opinion. I didn't commit the offence I'm accused of.

bagels

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The first question would be - how did they measure or assess your speed? You won't be charged with speeding by the Gardai unless they have measured your speed with a calibrated speed gun.

The complainant stated that the noise made by the car was what alerted her in the first place and then when she looked in my direction she claims she saw me speeding.

Green Peter wrote: »

Judges are generally very good in this country despite what people say. They will see through whoever is lying in this case. The witness box is a tough place when you are telling the truth but a hell hole when trying to cover a lie!

Telling the truth comes naturally to me so I've no fear of the witness box. I've no intention of compromising my personal integrity by lying. Hopefully the Judge will see through this stitch-up.

Isambard wrote: »

it depends what's being alleged, if the witnesses say they were driving madly and erratically, perhaps on the wrong side of the road or driving at the dog guy, then speed isn't relevant. I don't see how we can help the OP without knowing what was alleged and how the OPs driving was careless.

What's alleged by the complainant is that I was speeding and driving like a maniac, nothing more, and nothing else is alleged by her.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Good point, my knowledge of this area is a little dated.
OP said that they alleged that he was speeding. I'm questioning how they could have judged his speed against the speed limit.

The complainant, nor anybody else, couldn't judge my speed, its not possible without the appropriate instrumentation.

AndrewJRenko

bagels wrote: »

The complainant stated that the noise made by the car was what alerted her in the first place and then when she looked in my direction she claims she saw me speeding.

Your solicitor should be able to tear this apart easily enough. What was she judging against? How could she judge your speed? What IS the speed limit on that road? e