Inspections to increase?

mtoutlemonde

Good man, Mr. Bruton. Better get the tea and biscuits for the cigire

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2017-Press-Releases/PR-17-11-03.html

It is planned that over 1400 inspections of primary and post-primary schools will be carried out this year, about 450 of which will be unannounced short visits, about 500 will evaluate specific subjects, curriculum areas or specialised provision, 220 will be whole-school-type evaluations, and about 260 will be follow-through inspections. In addition, it is expected that inspectors will conduct around 400 advisory visits to support schools’ self-evaluation and improvement work in schemes such as the Gaeltacht School Recognition Scheme.

And the new buzz words for this year are 'School self-evaluation'.

Stronger emphasis on school self-evaluation. The Department has invested
significant time and resources in helping school leaders use the self-evaluation
tools available to them effectively.

r93kaey5p2izun

I suppose they're at a loose end now at primary level since Droichead has replaced a lot of their work in probating teachers, with teachers doing it for free and in their own time now.

evolving_doors

Oh! Mr. OFSTED. I didn't recognise you there for a second.

Schools rated from ‘very good’ to ‘weak’ under new regime. Bruton says changes will give parents better information on school performance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-rated-from-very-good-to-weak-under-new-regime-1.3278368?mode=amp

mtoutlemonde

evolving_doors wrote: »

Oh! Mr. OFSTED. I didn't recognise you there for a second.

Lesson plans for every lesson on the way. Teacher burnout five years like England. More planning hours to be added to your contract. Your colleagues/principal sitting in on your lessons.

Shortage of sub teachers already = decimation of an education system that works.

Postgrad10

All the more reason to move out of teaching.

Exiled1

About time.
The only problem I see in all of that is the reports don't mention subject areas in the MLLs. The PRs/DPs are easily recognisable while a very few teachers get away with incompetence.
Have a child in a school that got an excellent wse report. On the follow up, they visited a teacher who is a disgrace to the profession and she wasn't even identified by subject area because she was a one person department. It was embarrassing to say the least and as a BoM member I had to bite the bullet.
Otherwise Schools should rightly be hammered if they fall below the PR crap that some of them spout.

snowflaker

If it gets rid of the deadweight and gets younger more eager teachers in I support it

mtoutlemonde

snowflaker wrote: »

If it gets rid of the deadweight and gets younger more eager teachers in I support it

Who are lower paid and will be years working part time before they get full hours let alone pensions. I've seen younger teachers who are anything but eager about teaching and that's before they get employment.

evolving_doors

snowflaker wrote: »

If it gets rid of the deadweight and gets younger more eager teachers in I support it

If we're following the English model (which we are), then there's no doubt it'll get in a lot more younger teachers as the retirement rate shoots up due to disillusionment.
Then it's 'Teach First' initiatives to plug the gap.
Attrition rises.
More disillusionment.
Professional status gone.
Kids get sick of teachers leaving every year.
Downward spiral.

cnn27

It's interesting how Ireland is talking about bringing in such ratings in the same week that the head of Ofsted cast some doubt on their continued use in England...
https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/ofsted-uncertain-about-outstanding-ratings-and-nine-other-things

wirelessdude01

evolving_doors wrote:

If we're following the English model (which we are), then there's no doubt it'll get in a lot more younger teachers as the retirement rate shoots up due to disillusionment. Then it's 'Teach First' initiatives to plug the gap. Attrition rises. More disillusionment. Professional status gone. Kids get sick of teachers leaving every year. Downward spiral.

Kids get sick of teachers leaving every midterm and end of term which happens alot in English system as well.

Wait until performance management kicks in via Cosan and then wait for the outcry from parents about consistency as teachers are moved on, sideways and every which way every few months.

doc_17

Exiled1 wrote: »

About time.
The only problem I see in all of that is the reports don't mention subject areas in the MLLs. The PRs/DPs are easily recognisable while a very few teachers get away with incompetence.
Have a child in a school that got an excellent wse report. On the follow up, they visited a teacher who is a disgrace to the profession and she wasn't even identified by subject area because she was a one person department. It was embarrassing to say the least and as a BoM member I had to bite the bullet.
Otherwise Schools should rightly be hammered if they fall below the PR crap that some of them spout.

Go spout your anti-teacher BS someplace else.

doc_17

snowflaker wrote: »

If it gets rid of the deadweight and gets younger more eager teachers in I support it

One thing I have learned since all my friends have started sending their children to school is that they all become completely irrational when it comes to their children. They’ll believe anything they’re told.

byhookorbycrook

These inspections are about box ticking to a huge extent . At our last WSE, we asked for support in setting up a new initiative , we were promised the moon and stars and 4 years later , we are still waiting .

We went ahead ourselves , so no doubt next time out the cigire will be patting themselves on the backs for our great work and using it as a model for other schools .

evolving_doors

Another thing to challenge during the final debriefing is the language.
Example: Teaching was observed and the inspector told the teacher that her methods were 'excellent' , resources were 'brilliant' etc. But when it came to reporting back to the school at the end the words used were 'generally good' and 'satisfactory'. The teacher challenged it vehemently untill they conceded that it would be changed to keep in line with the initial feedback.

mtoutlemonde

evolving_doors wrote: »

Another thing to challenge during the final debriefing is the language.
Example: Teaching was observed and the inspector told the teacher that her methods were 'excellent' , resources were 'brilliant' etc. But when it came to reporting back to the school at the end the words used were 'generally good' and 'satisfactory'. The teacher challenged it vehemently untill they conceded that it would be changed to keep in line with the initial feedback.

Yes, I have seen that in a subject inspection where each teacher was given excellent feedback after class but this changed on final day in front of principal - I would have liked to be a fly on the wall that day.

One of the problems I during feedback was in the subject plan under resources - they did not want to see teacher made resources but a link to where the resource is. When asked why - they said that if someone got sick - someone else could use these resources. If you're a qualified teacher in the subject you're covering, you either have your own or prepare them if needed. Everyone teaches differently.

Another one dealt with planning was good to excellent - when asked what 'excellent' was i.e. standard - they wouldn't identify which subject(s) did plan well so that it could be used by the entire school. In an ideal world a school would adhere to the one template.

I was told years ago that a visit of the cigire is at teacher's discretion - would love to see what would happen if all the teachers of the school refused to allow the cigire enter - a poor report - but who reads them?????

I have been through a few inspections during my career and more to come
I have realised that it really is a box ticking exercise and let them at it. I do my best, get on with students, students get good results and have a good subject plan. There will always be a negative but no one is perfect.

judeboy101

Technically, an inspector has to be vetted to be on school property and interacting with students, and vetting for each person needs to be on file in school office and should be specific to that schools patron or managing body. E.g I'm better for my own school and separately vetted as a bom member for another school down the road. One could challenge an inspector to show they are better before a class.

mtoutlemonde

judeboy101 wrote: »

Technically, an inspector has to be vetted to be on school property and interacting with students, and vetting for each person needs to be on file in school office and should be specific to that schools patron or managing body. E.g I'm better for my own school and separately vetted as a bom member for another school down the road. One could challenge an inspector to show they are better before a class.

I think people coming into the school to deliver a course or whatever have to be vetted but once there is teacher supervision, I think they are ok. The inspectors only meet students for questionnaires and in classes both with teacher supervision. I presume all inspectors would be Garda Vetted every year?

keoclassic

judeboy101 wrote: »

Technically, an inspector has to be vetted to be on school property and interacting with students, and vetting for each person needs to be on file in school office and should be specific to that schools patron or managing body. E.g I'm better for my own school and separately vetted as a bom member for another school down the road. One could challenge an inspector to show they are better before a class.

Its this type of stuff that has the public sector destroyed, shame on anyone who would make life this difficult for anyone trying to do their job!

keoclassic

I don't see the issue with more inspections at school level, once you have your subject dept in order, you have nothing to fear.On the most part, its the teachers themselves that get hyped up by the mere suggestion of an inspection.

judeboy101

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I think people coming into the school to deliver a course or whatever have to be vetted but once there is teacher supervision, I think they are ok. The inspectors only meet students for questionnaires and in classes both with teacher supervision. I presume all inspectors would be Garda Vetted every year?

You would think that, but from the way it was put to me, vetting must be school specific AND available for verification in the school office. Now i doubt there is a copy of every inspectors vetting form in every school and they are better for every patron.

judeboy101

keoclassic wrote: »

Its this type of stuff that has the public sector destroyed, shame on anyone who would make life this difficult for anyone trying to do their job!

Rules are rules, teachers are expected to adhere to the highest and most stringent child safety guidelines, yet we allow strangers to wander unaccompanied around the school and to interact unchaperoned with students.

keoclassic

judeboy101 wrote: »

You would think that, but from the way it was put to me, vetting must be school specific AND available for verification in the school office. Now i doubt there is a copy of every inspectors vetting form in every school and they are better for every patron.

That's rubbish, what do etbs do in that instance, re-vet a teacher who moves from one school in the scheme to another.You are describing and trying hard to create a red tape situation whereby a school can feel justified in turning an inspector away?

keoclassic

judeboy101 wrote: »

Rules are rules, teachers are expected to adhere to the highest and most stringent child safety guidelines, yet we allow strangers to wander unaccompanied around the school and to interact unchaperoned with students.

Tell me, are teachers not undergoing retrospective vetting at the moment? So technically there are thousands of teachers who are not currently vetted!

r93kaey5p2izun

Surely inspectors would be vetted under the new digital system and just share their vetting with each school digitally. I don't think this is an issue at all.

judeboy101

keoclassic wrote: »

That's rubbish, what do etbs do in that instance, re-vet a teacher who moves from one school in the scheme to another.You are describing and trying hard to create a red tape situation whereby a school can feel justified in turning an inspector away?

How can a school "create red tape", "red tape" can only come from legislation and how it is implemented. My understanding was that "pure" etb's was one vetting covers all, but if etb was co patron with patron X and a teacher moved to that school from a non etb/patron X school they would technically have to re vet. Same as if i was coach of soccer team but switched to gaa, id need re vetting.

keoclassic

you are 100% correct in your understanding of the situation, if you are a teacher, but we are not talking about teachers here, personally i dont know the situation for an inspector, but as one poster has said it is relatively a non issue in my eyes.....bigger fish to fry in the teaching Profession.As for the red tape comment you are right, it was a bad choice of words, being an asshole would have been more suitable!

doc_17

After an inspection each school gets an option to reply. Perhaps in their reply they should grade the department in the following:

Are there prefabs on site? That would be weak.

Is there high speed broadband? If not that would be weak.

Does the school have to engage in fundraising because the dept don’t find them correctly? If so the dept’s funding is weak.

Has the school lost post holders due to retirement that have not been replaced due to the moratorium? This resulting in not enough middle management to meet the ongoing, increasing and ever more onerous bureaucratic demands of the dept? If so the dept are weak.

Those are just a few of the top of my head but because those scenarios exist in all schools then I am labelling the dept weak.

byhookorbycrook

Two things that struck me during our WSE:

One inspector asked "If a former pupil aged 20 turned up with their solicitor here to look for proof that you had met their needs, what documentation would you have to show them?" Seriously, we are now supposed to have keep enough "evidence" stored to cover our asses if a past pupil turns up in 8 or more years time? We don't have enough spaces for all of our staff, much less for all the paperwork we would need to keep for an unspecified number of years? And do we have to teach every lesson as if a barrister was peering over our shoulders?

Another suggested we send any children with SEN to another room if we thought the inspector might upset them- reminds me of the stories circulating in the 70s of certain children being told to stay home/ go count the cattle/ work in the bog the day the inspector was due.

I'm of an age and experience that cigirí don't scare me, if they have a better way to do things to show me, fantastic, if not, then go bother someone else. Our staff are a hardworking and professional lot, either make actually helpful and practical recommendations as to how to improve or stop wasting our time.

mtoutlemonde

doc_17 wrote: »

After an inspection each school gets an option to reply. Perhaps in their reply they should grade the department in the following:

Are there prefabs on site? That would be weak.

Is there high speed broadband? If not that would be weak.

Does the school have to engage in fundraising because the dept don’t find them correctly? If so the dept’s funding is weak.

Has the school lost post holders due to retirement that have not been replaced due to the moratorium? This resulting in not enough middle management to meet the ongoing, increasing and ever more onerous bureaucratic demands of the dept? If so the dept are weak.

Those are just a few of the top of my head but because those scenarios exist in all schools then I am labelling the dept weak.

Have you 25+ students in a classroom and a teacher is made identify and cater for each students needs.... fail.

Are you implementing new courses where the facilitators don't know what they're on about.... fail.

Are you 'reforming' our successful education and looking to other countries such as the failed UK system.... fail.

mtoutlemonde

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Two things that struck me during our WSE:

One inspector asked "If a former pupil aged 20 turned up with their solicitor here to look for proof that you had met their needs, what documentation would you have to show them?" Seriously, we are now supposed to have keep enough "evidence" stored to cover our asses if a past pupil turns up in 8 or more years time? We don't have enough spaces for all of our staff, much less for all the paperwork we would need to keep for an unspecified number of years? And do we have to teach every lesson as if a barrister was peering over our shoulders?

Another suggested we send any children with SEN to another room if we thought the inspector might upset them- reminds me of the stories circulating in the 70s of certain children being told to stay home/ go count the cattle/ work in the bog the day the inspector was due.

I'm of an age and experience that cigirí don't scare me, if they have a better way to do things to show me, fantastic, if not, then go bother someone else. Our staff are a hardworking and professional lot, either make actually helpful and practical recommendations as to how to improve or stop wasting our time.

Anecdotal: I heard of a teacher who on being interrupted by the cigire, sitting down and saying to the cigire 'You teach them so'

Romantic Rose

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Anecdotal: I heard of a teacher who on being interrupted by the cigire, sitting down and saying to the cigire 'You teach them so'

It took balls for the teacher to do that but that is what a lot of teachers are missing these days...balls. We need to stand up for ourselves, not pander to the constant demands of this and that so that someone can justify their cushy job at the top. Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians these days.