Oil drain nut loose after service

WicklowTiger

Had my 151 Skoda Superb 2.0 TDI serviced at a main dealers 3 weeks ago. About a week or so later noticed a drop of oil in a puddle on the drive, assumed it had been overfilled or a bit splashed out or whatever during service, thought nothing of it.

Yesterday was traveling to Galway, first long drive since the service. In the overtaking lane on the motorway at full speed, next thing big red warning message with stop immediately due to low oil pressure cones up. Got over to the hard shoulder as soon as I could (~500 metres) then called insurance breakdown. Car towed to Skoda dealer in Galway (big shout out to Kennco Insurance here, they've covered towing, car rental and hotel accommodation.)

The garage only got to it last evening, said the oil drain nut was in the sump. So my theory is that the garage who serviced it failed to properly tighten the nut, then the heat of the oil in the long journey caused it to come fully loose.

Sounds like I got lucky and stopped in time (there was still oil leaking when it went on the tow truck), the garage wanted to test it so one of the mechanics drove it home last night.

I've informed the dealer where the car was serviced, they've asked for a report from the Galway dealer.

Anything I should do assuming it comes back with the all clear? Any advice appreciated.

jca

Hope they haven’t stripped the threads in the sump. Keep a very good eye on the oil level when you get it back, crawl underneath and check they haven’t done a botch job on the drain plug. Look for signs of plumbers thread tape around the plug etc. Next time you see drips on the driveway have a look underneath to see where it’s coming from. You were very very lucky.

WicklowTiger

jca wrote: »

Hope they haven’t stripped the threads in the sump. Keep a very good eye on the oil level when you get it back, crawl underneath and check they haven’t done a botch job on the drain plug. Look for signs of plumbers thread tape around the plug etc. Next time you see drips on the driveway have a look underneath to see where it’s coming from. You were very very lucky.

Thanks, yes definitely will always check any evidence! Lesson learned. Still waiting to hear from the garage but hoping all is OK.

If it was me I would insist on a sump drop and inspection of the crank shaft and the bearings. The engine would have been running without adequate lubrication from the moment the warning sounded and for the piece of mind it's worth checking the bearings and crankshaft journals for signs of damage. Even if the engine works now, any damage there would definitely affect the engine in the medium to long term.

samih

samih wrote: »

If it was me I would insist on a sump drop and inspection of the crank shaft and the bearings. The engine would have been running without adequate lubrication from the moment the warning sounded and for the piece of mind it's worth checking the bearings and crankshaft journals for signs of damage. Even if the engine works now, any damage there would definitely affect the engine in the medium to long term.

Could all appear well on an inspection but there could still be unseen stress IMO.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

samih wrote: »

If it was me I would insist on a sump drop and inspection of the crank shaft and the bearings. The engine would have been running without adequate lubrication from the moment the warning sounded and for the piece of mind it's worth checking the bearings and crankshaft journals for signs of damage. Even if the engine works now, any damage there would definitely affect the engine in the medium to long term.

Could all appear well on an inspection but there could still be unseen stress IMO.

Yes, the inspection would really have to be crack open all or some of the bearing caps to see if any material wore out from the nine sets of main bearings. Those are the ones that will show signs of oil starvation before anything else. At the same time it might actually be enough to just drain the current engine oil soon and inspect it and the oil filter for traces of bearing material. If any is found then it would be time for more inspection.

jca

Nah, don't listen to the drama queens here. There's no doubt the oil level got very low but I'd say the oil just surged away from the pick up pipe giving a momentary loss of pressure. It isn't like you drove under load with no oil pressure at all. When you get the car back, the first start of the day will tell all, listen for heavy knocking or rumbling which would indicate big end or main bearing wear.

Toyotafanboi

I reckon the same. Sounds like the engine was shut down within seconds of seeing the light on the dash.

Anyway, who will pay for the sump drop? What will happen when the findings are in all likelihood inconclusive?

The garage will be red faced and undoubtably cover tour costs with the Galway dealer, any associated requests and probably throw in some kind of goodwill gesture.

What volume of oil is required to be lost before you get low oil pressure on that lump?

I agree dropping the sump is inconclusive, that's the point I made. Fail to see how that makes me a drama queen TBH.

Considering that came from the plumbers tape word of warning chap it's amusing actually.

jca

Augeo wrote: »

What volume of oil is required to be lost before you get low oil pressure on that lump?

I agree dropping the sump is inconclusive, that's the point I made. Fail to see how that makes me a drama queen TBH.

Considering that came from the plumbers tape word of warning chap it's amusing actually.

There's many a vw sump after being botched with worse than plumbers tape. They're notorious for stripping threads, there's nothing amusing about it....chap.

jca

jca wrote: »

There's many a vw sump after being botched with worse than plumbers tape. They're notorious for stripping threads, there's nothing amusing about it....chap.

So you reckon the garage it was towed to will bodge it with plumbers tape ?

When they've identified the loose plug in the first instance?

Chap .... lol

jca

Augeo wrote: »

So you reckon the garage it was towed to will bodge it with plumbers tape ?

When they've identified the loose plug in the first instance?

Chap .... lol

No. I meant the first garage might have stripped the threads did a bodge and hoped for the best that's why it started leaking. @OP, I hope you get sorted and it's just a simple loose drain plug I'm out of here.

WicklowTiger

Thanks for all replies.... Just back from Galway, drove to Wexford via Dublin, almost all motorway. ~350km with a lot of that at 120+kph, no issues at all. Stopped a couple of times, checked under car for evidence, none. Will check dipstick when cold first thing in the morning. Reckon I got off lucky. Galway dealers couldn't have been more helpful, when I started up to drive off she was almost out of diesel (obviously mechanic gave it a good drive the night before) so they stuck €15 diesel in FOC.

mickdw

I wouldn't be happy.
Low oil pressure is different to low oil warning.
Any period of low pressure could have caused damage.
What have the servicing dealer said about this?
I'd be having written record to them stating that engine suffered a low pressure event due to oil loss from loose sump nut x weeks after being services by them.

WicklowTiger

mickdw wrote: »

I wouldn't be happy.
Low oil pressure is different to low oil warning.
Any period of low pressure could have caused damage.
What have the servicing dealer said about this?
I'd be having written record to them stating that engine suffered a low pressure event due to oil loss from loose sump nut x weeks after being services by them.

I tried to get them on the phone today, now it was late enough in the evening. Call not yet returned but will be speaking with them in the morning. I will put concerns in writing though, can't do any harm, thanks for that advice.

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

I wouldn't be happy.
Low oil pressure is different to low oil warning.
Any period of low pressure could have caused damage.
What have the servicing dealer said about this?
I'd be having written record to them stating that engine suffered a low pressure event due to oil loss from loose sump nut x weeks after being services by them.

Indeed..... there could well be damage done and there's nothing drama queenish in knowing enough to point that out.

WicklowTiger

Called dealer this morning, dropping in to them on Monday to have it looked over again and discuss. Very apologetic.

WicklowTiger

Wrote to main dealer this morning and sent them a copy of the letter via email. Glad I did now. Set out for Dublin this evening, half way engine started making a racket and oil pressure light and warnings on again. Engine stuffed? Interesting week ahead...

mickdw

It was always a possibility.
Best result for you that it happened immediately not a year down the line.

Trojan

No advice - just best of luck with it. Keep us updated on how it goes.

jca

WicklowTiger wrote: »

Wrote to main dealer this morning and sent them a copy of the letter via email. Glad I did now. Set out for Dublin this evening, half way engine started making a racket and oil pressure light and warnings on again. Engine stuffed? Interesting week ahead...

Was it low on oil? What happened next did you have to call your breakdown service? What exactly did the second garage tell you? Any oil underneath? Sorry about all the questions but you'll need to have everything in writing from now on as it isn't looking great for your engine at this stage.

WicklowTiger

jca wrote: »

Was it low on oil? What happened next did you have to call your breakdown service? What exactly did the second garage tell you? Any oil underneath? Sorry about all the questions but you'll need to have everything in writing from now on as it isn't looking great for your engine at this stage.

Wednesday wasn't too bad. Was just me in the car, daytime, relatively warm day. Last night was different: myself, the missus, 2 kids under 10 in the car, broken down on the motorway at a point where the hard shoulder was very narrow. We got out and behind the crash barrier for safety. But was dark and raining.

This time I called Skoda assist who apparently I should have called the first time as well. They had recovery to us in less than an hour but because it was late car was taken to Dublin lockup and I had to go with it to get replacement hire car. It will go to dealer in Wicklow today or Monday.

No didn't check oil, but the engine did not sound good at all. I'm happy that it's going to a different dealer to where it was serviced.

jca

One thing that's been niggling me is why the orange low level light didn't come on first. Pity you didn't get a chance to check the oil level when you broke down the second time, very stressful. I hope it works out.

WicklowTiger

jca wrote: »

One thing that's been niggling me is why the orange low level light didn't come on first. Pity you didn't get a chance to check the oil level when you broke down the second time, very stressful. I hope it works out.

Good question and I don't know the answer to it but it definitely went straight to flashing red.

jca

Let us know what happens on Monday. I think you need to go back further and find out why the level sensor isn't working, was it damaged by a jack etc maybe its leaking. That's the worst of those plastic undertrays, they hold so much fluid that by the time you see it on the ground the component that's leaking is nearly empty. A lot of garages are using these suction pumps to empty the oil via the dip stick as they're terrified of the threads coming out with the plug from previously being over tightened.

martyc5674

jca wrote: »

One thing that's been niggling me is why the orange low level light didn't come on first. Pity you didn't get a chance to check the oil level when you broke down the second time, very stressful. I hope it works out.

I'd hazard a guess that it all happened so quick OP either didn't notice or else the oil pressure warning overrode the oil level warning.

On my own car the only time the ECU reads the oil level is prior to startup... it looks at pressure from there on. (granted a different and much older car)
Marty.

fryup

sorry if i'm missing something here?

how does the nut end up in the sump? surely it would have dropped off completely?

martyc5674

fryup wrote: »

sorry if i'm missing something here?

how does the nut end up in the sump? surely it would have dropped off completely?

I think they mean it was on the belly pan.

fryup

belly pan? and whats that?...............splash panel?

jca

Lads Lads, no one said anything about the sump plug dropping out completely. It was loose and the oil leaked out over a few days. That's it. Please don't let this good thread descend into the usual boards tit for tat between two posters, a man has a potentially ruined engine here I think that's more important.

martyc5674

jca wrote: »

Lads Lads, no one said anything about the sump plug dropping out completely. It was loose and the oil leaked out over a few days. That's it. Please don't let this good thread descend into the usual boards tit for tat between two posters, a man has a potentially ruined engine here I think that's more important.

There's no tit for tat....

Quote from OPs first post.

"The garage only got to it last evening, said the oil drain nut was in the sump. So my theory is that the garage who serviced it failed to properly tighten the nut, then the heat of the oil in the long journey caused it to come fully loose."

I read that as the plug worked loose and was sitting on the belly pan when garage examined it. (Big plastic pan under the engine)

But maybe I'm working... maybe it was still in the sump just v loose.

jca

martyc5674 wrote: »

There's no tit for tat....

Quote from OPs first post.

"The garage only got to it last evening, said the oil drain nut was in the sump. So my theory is that the garage who serviced it failed to properly tighten the nut, then the heat of the oil in the long journey caused it to come fully loose."

I read that as the plug worked loose and was sitting on the belly pan when garage examined it. (Big plastic pan under the engine)

But maybe I'm working... maybe it was still in the sump just v loose.

Yea I think the op means the plastic undertray.

spiggotpaddy

I would have thought the top end would suffer a lot more wear long before the shells started knocking. But if the damage isn't apparent, what can you do about it.

martyc5674

jca wrote: »

Yea I think the op means the plastic undertray.

Exactly... so it worked loose dripping a little etc, then finally dropped out completely letting all the oil out over a few seconds.
That's why I reckon OP didn't get a low level oil warning... it happened too quick.
I had a similar incident myself this year.

But the OP could be interpreted either way.

martyc5674

spiggotpaddy wrote: »

I would have thought the top end would suffer a lot more wear long before the shells started knocking. But if the damage isn't apparent, what can you do about it.

The big end bearings need a constant oil supply at high pressure to get the oil between crank and shell.
A few seconds with low oil pressure and they will suffer first.

jca

All considered op this is the best result in comparison to the damage coming to the surface in a few months.

Hugely inconvenient no doubt but there can be no argument from the responsible dealer IMO.

jca wrote: »

Nah, don't listen to the drama queens here. There's no doubt the oil level got very low but I'd say the oil just surged away from the pick up pipe giving a momentary loss of pressure. It isn't like you drove under load with no oil pressure at all. When you get the car back, the first start of the day will tell all, listen for heavy knocking or rumbling which would indicate big end or main bearing wear.

.... first start of the day will tell all .... drama queens.
Very good, chap.

khaldrogo

I've been looking in on this thread over the last few days. It's comical really and just shows the type of poster in the motor section but if you replace 'main dealer' in the OP with 'Atlas' or 'Advance' within one or two posts you would have had someone slating the mechanic/business and people with their anecdotes about their sister's cousins girlfriends mother and how they were ripped off............but when you people see the words 'main dealer' you give the benefit of the doubt to the garage and wait to hear the out come.

Indeed, if advance were involved no post about drama queens would have been thanked several times.

Oil pressure sensors rarely lie

Toyotafanboi

let's leave the willy waving to one side please lads, the OP is keeping us updated and may still need advice from this thread.

Anyone intentionally dragging it off topic will be warned/ banned.

WicklowTiger

All I can say is, a nut came free, oil from engine emptied, and said nut was found within the engine area/underbody of the car. I don't have any knowledge of engines, only thing about them I ever knew was that a certain level of oil is needed to keep them operating and any drop below that level is catostrophic. Other than that, no clue as to how they work. I never even knew there was such a nut until a few days ago!

spiggotpaddy

martyc5674 wrote: »

The big end bearings need a constant oil supply at high pressure to get the oil between crank and shell.
A few seconds with low oil pressure and they will suffer first.

And the cam lobes wouldn't mind the odd squirt of the black stuff whacking it down the motorway.
Probably won't be until the next owner feels the burn. I would consider the top end as precision engineering and the bottom as just nuts and bolts.

WicklowTiger

WicklowTiger wrote: »

....... only thing about them I ever knew was that a certain level of oil is needed to keep them operating and any drop below that level is catostrophic. .............

It's impossible to quantify how much oil loss can be tolerated by an engine without damage but as your's lost quite a lot of it as the sump plug was actually after coming detached completely it was very likely your engine was damaged, unfortunately.

Toyotafanboi

It's funny and i know it's not scientific but you see the likes of fifth gear making videos of ancient Madras and iirc even a diesel a4 where they completely drain the dump of oil and run the engines for absolute hours afterwards and they seem to be "relatively" ok in that it's minutes before they start knocking and hours before they seize.

OP's car was oil starved for just seconds before being shut down, it's hard to imagine that it could have been damaged to the extent that it caused critical engine failure within hours of being refilled with oil. It does sound like it has been though and I'd agree that while it's immediately inconvenient it's definitely better in the long run.

Toyotafanboi

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

...........

OP's car was oil starved for just seconds before being shut down, it's hard to imagine that it could have been damaged to the extent that it caused critical engine failure...............

It's not at all hard to imagine.
Modern engines are built to relatively extreme tolerances compared to even 20 years ago........if engine oil supply is restricted for even seconds to components than the results will quite likely be catastrophic.

A film of high pressure oil is required, a film of oil won't last milliseconds between components if there's no pressure, it's flicked away and the heat takes over damaging the metal.

jca

khaldrogo wrote: »

I've been looking in on this thread over the last few days. It's comical really and just shows the type of poster in the motor section but if you replace 'main dealer' in the OP with 'Atlas' or 'Advance' within one or two posts you would have had someone slating the mechanic/business and people with their anecdotes about their sister's cousins girlfriends mother and how they were ripped off............but when you people see the words 'main dealer' you give the benefit of the doubt to the garage and wait to hear the out come.

I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt to anyone. The op needs to establish the sequence of events that led him to dreadful position as he said himself he doesn't understand how engines work. If indeed his engine is ruined the blame game is going to begin with no one going to want to pick up the bill for a new engine. A quick check of the oil level when it broke down the second time would have told a lot. I still suspect the sump threads have been damaged and the oil leaked out again, hopeful I'm wrong in this case.

I'd imagine oil would have been noticed at the scene by the towtruck driver loading it ......... IMO of course.

The OP could perhaps contact the tow truck company an enquire was there oil (fresh oil, from his car of course) on the flatbed.

mickdw

Hold on. I don't think it anyway likely that the engine lost all its oil a second time. That would be just too weird.
In my opinion, Engine lost oil first time - this is known. Engine suffers damage.
Engine filled up with oil and put back on the road. First long run and engine fails as result of damage. Now it did throw the oil pressure warning but that doesn't mean all the oil was gone again. It could be failed oil pump having been damaged in the first event. That would explain not getting a low oil warning.
Regardless it's new engine time. I believe there is a very good chance of a satisfactory result given the immediate failure.

jca

mickdw wrote: »

Hold on. I don't think it anyway likely that the engine lost all its oil a second time. That would be just too weird.
In my opinion, Engine lost oil first time - this is known. Engine suffers damage.
Engine filled up with oil and put back on the road. First long run and engine fails as result of damage. Now it did throw the oil pressure warning but that doesn't mean all the oil was gone again. It could be failed oil pump having been damaged in the first event. That would explain not getting a low oil warning.
Regardless it's new engine time. I believe there is a very good chance of a satisfactory result given the immediate failure.

Very likely it's oil pump failure if it didn't lose the oil for the second time.

gctest50

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

..................

OP's car was oil starved for just seconds before being shut down, it's hard to imagine that it could have been damaged to the extent that it caused critical engine failure within hours of being refilled with oil........

The oil pressure switch only comes on at about 0.8 ---- 0.5 bar

Pressure could be low for ages, say hello to f*cked shell bearings

Needles73

gctest50 wrote: »

The oil pressure switch only comes on at about 0.8 ---- 0.5 bar

Pressure could be low for ages, say hello to f*cked shell bearings

F*ck all point in having an oil pressure switch so if that's the case.

gctest50

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/topran/2724635

You need a gauge really, you'd notice stuff with it