Rail strikes...again

OldGoat

Just an idle thought. If the striking workers would still run the trains but just not enforce any ticket collection, thus delivering a twofold blow to the rail companies and at the same time not pissing off the public rail users.

daheff

i think CIE threatened to sue unions if they did something like this again. AFAIK dublin bus drivers did this before and were warned not to do it again or unions would be sued.

Hitman3000

OldGoat wrote:

Just an idle thought. If the striking workers would still run the trains but just not enforce any ticket collection, thus delivering a twofold blow to the rail companies and at the same time not pissing off the public rail users.

It won't be said, but p*ssing off the public is a tactic employed so political pressure is brought to bear.

fryup

we need a maggie thatcher in this country....someone with the backbone to face down the unions

there's been too much pussyfooting for too long

OldGoat

Hitman3000 wrote: »

It won't be said, but p*ssing off the public is a tactic employed so political pressure is brought to bear.

Yeah, I know but it would be nice not to be the pawn for once.

Zebra3

fryup wrote: »

we need a maggie thatcher in this country....someone with the backbone to face down the unions

there's been too much pussyfooting for too long

Why?

Not everyone gets automatic pay rises like the politicians do or can claim €160 a day in unvouched expenses for going to work. Or a second pension for two years “service”.

People see the politicians looting the system and decide they want some as well.

And maybe if politicians tackled the 12% rent increases, they’re wouldn’t be the need for a pay rise. But then again, FG are the party of the rack renting landlord class so that won’t be happening any time soon.

Why would anyone have a problem with workers standing up for themselves?

BillyBobBS

fryup wrote: »

we need a maggie thatcher in this country....someone with the backbone to face down the unions

there's been too much pussyfooting for too long

No.

Dravokivich

OldGoat wrote: »

Just an idle thought. If the striking workers would still run the trains but just not enforce any ticket collection, thus delivering a twofold blow to the rail companies and at the same time not pissing off the public rail users.

Eh, the want to inconvenience the public rail user. People don't go on strike for sympathy. They want you to be frustrated by Irish Rail.

ThunbergsAreGo

Dravokivich wrote: »

Eh, the want to inconvenience the public rail user. People don't go on strike for sympathy. They want you to be frustrated by Irish Rail.

I think public opinion has changed in the last while regarding this with frustration directed towards the workers and not the company itself

Dravokivich

naughtb4 wrote: »

I think public opinion has changed in the last while regarding this with frustration directed towards the workers and not the company itself

The workers work for Irish Rail. You're unhappy at them, you're unhappy with who they work for.

nice_guy80

the management in cie must be just absolutely clueless

ThunbergsAreGo

Dravokivich wrote: »

The workers work for Irish Rail. You're unhappy at them, you're unhappy with who they work for.

I do not want their strike to work for them

OldGoat

The management companies really don't give a toss for public opinion in comparison to financial gains/losses. When push comes to shove in the strike games it's all about the loss of income. That is and always will be the deciding factor in disputes.

Idbatterim

The level of idiocy here is staggering. Award pay increases in duboin bus and Luas without thinking they are all interlinked ...

Hitman3000

Idbatterim wrote:

The level of idiocy here is staggering. Award pay increases in duboin bus and Luas without thinking they are all interlinked ...

Are you denying the rights of workers to seek a pay rise?

Gerrup Outta Dat!

OldGoat wrote: »

Just an idle thought. If the striking workers would still run the trains but just not enforce any ticket collection, thus delivering a twofold blow to the rail companies and at the same time not pissing off the public rail users.

That’s involve work and customer service. IE staff are work shy.

Gerrup Outta Dat!

They’re moaning about not getting a pay increase in 10 years, but their salary is 60k per year for an experienced train driver as it is. What are they moaning about?

Hitman3000

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote:

They’re moaning about not getting a pay increase in 10 years, but their salary is 60k per year for an experienced train driver as it is. What are they moaning about?

Do you think everyone that works for IR is a train driver?

Gerrup Outta Dat!

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Do you think everyone that works for IR is a train driver?

They’re over paid and work shy as it is.

Hitman3000

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote:

They’re over paid and work shy as it is.

In your opinion.

seamus

The action cited in the OP is a deliberate breach of employment contract and could also be called a conspiracy to theft.

The company could (and should in that case) charge the employees with gross misconduct and fire them. It would be like a supermarket's employees opening the shop but not manning the tills and instead telling customers they can walk out with their full trollies.

Striking is a different action which is protected by law and does not involve the theft or use of company resources by the striking workers.

IE was the last up on the strike list, and is the most closed shop in the CIE group, so this could be a long drawn-out one.

My understanding though is that there is virtually no difference from the BÉ strike last year, the company is on the verge of liquidation so there's no money to give to the drivers.

The end result of this one will probably be the breaking of the exclusively nepotistic hiring practices in IÉ and the importation of EU drivers who'll be delighted to get €40k-€50k for the same job that would net them €30k at home.

Hitman3000

seamus wrote:

The end result of this one will probably be the breaking of the exclusively nepotistic hiring practices in IÉ and the importation of EU drivers who'll be delighted to get €40k-€50k for the same job that would net them €30k at home.

Won't happen.

Idbatterim

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Are you denying the rights of workers to seek a pay rise?

No they can seek what the like. For a company losing money, with ridiculous work practices. Already overpaid workers who's only question is what more can I strangle Out of them , rather than " we should be working together " ... I've no sympathy for them ..

seamus

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Won't happen.

Never underestimate the greediness of unions.

The teachers' union sold new teachers down the river to protect their own terms and conditions.

I can see the workers at IÉ negotiating a sweetheart deal for themselves in return for new hires getting "modern" contracts and terms.

Hitman3000

Idbatterim wrote:

No they can seek what the like. For a company losing money, with ridiculous work practices. Already overpaid workers who's only question is what more can I strangle Out of them , rather than " we should be working together " ... I've no sympathy for them ..

The company has offered 1.75% with links to productivity the workers have sought 3.5%. Define overpaid? As I said to another poster not all employees are train drivers on 60k.

Hitman3000

seamus wrote:

I can see the workers at IÉ negotiating a sweetheart deal for themselves in return for new hires getting "modern" contracts and terms.

I know a few people working for IR in different areas. You are way off the mark.

Zebra3

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

They’re over paid and work shy as it is.

Any proof of this?

baylah17

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Won't happen.

It should though.
Hopefully Ross will stick to his guns and the IE staff will crawl back just like the Bus Eireann crowd did.
Once Ross lets it go insolvent a liquidator can be appointed and the private sector can buy the stock and hire new drivers on real world contracts.

seamus

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I know a few people working for IR in different areas. You are way off the mark.

They won't be sitting at the negotiating table though.

I guess we'll have to see.

IÉ have already offered a payrise and it's been rejected. So the union are going to have to forfeit something in order for management to listen to them.

baylah17 wrote: »

Hopefully Ross will stick to his guns and the IE staff will crawl back just like the Bus Eireann crowd did.

He has no choice now really. He can't suddenly decide to intervene this time when he so vehemently stood out last time. This strike is no different to the others and will have to be sweated out until the union realise that they have no support and the government cannot intervene.

Zebra3

baylah17 wrote: »

It should though.
Hopefully Ross will stick to his guns and the IE staff will crawl back just like the Bus Eireann crowd did.
Once Ross lets it go insolvent a liquidator can be appointed and the private sector can buy the stock and hire new drivers on real world contracts.

LOL.

What company would buy Irish Rail? :D:D

Truly clueless.

Idbatterim

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The company has offered 1.75% with links to productivity the workers have sought 3.5%. Define overpaid? As I said to another poster not all employees are train drivers on 60k.

of course they aren't. I'd say the Admin and clerical side of things is a joke, in fact cie came out with figures on it a few months back. In other companies many of these positions would be axed. You can be on 25k a year and still be overpaid ...

speedboatchase

Zebra3 wrote: »

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

They’re over paid and work shy as it is.

Any proof of this?

They're seeking increases without any productivity strings attached. Their current average salary is €54,647 in a company that's losing money.
There's your proof.

Hitman3000

seamus wrote:

IÉ have already offered a payrise and it's been rejected. So the union are going to have to forfeit something in order for management to listen to them.

Or p*ss off the travelling public.
The union in IR is much smaller than other public sector unions.

Hitman3000

speedboatchase wrote:

They're seeking increases without any productivity strings attached. Their current average salary is €54,647 in a company that's losing money. There's your proof.

Averages mean nothing. E.g. 5 guys, 1 has 10 million the others on minimum wage but based on averages they are all millionaires.

branie2

Excuse the pun, but this is just off the rails

ThunbergsAreGo

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The company has offered 1.75% with links to productivity the workers have sought 3.5%. Define overpaid? As I said to another poster not all employees are train drivers on 60k.

How dare they ask them to work for their increase :eek:

Hitman3000

naughtb4 wrote:

How dare they ask them to work for their increase

They already work. You do understand inflation and workers seeking a rise to offset inflation.

seamus

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Or p*ss off the travelling public.

You see, that's only effective where politicians can get involved or the public can switch to a competitor. Neither of which apply here. BÉ and Luas staff both bet on "pissing off the public" with their strike action, and both actions ended with zero public support and the union slinking away, tail between their legs.

This strike is basically no different. At best they might secure themselves a slightly better pay deal, but it'll cost them jobs further down the line as IÉ go bankrupt.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

fryup wrote: »

we need a maggie thatcher in this country....someone with the backbone to face down the unions

there's been too much pussyfooting for too long

We had a Maggie Thatcher in this country before, her name was Maggie Thatcher and she was a cnut.

Randle P. McMurphy

seamus wrote: »

You see, that's only effective where politicians can get involved or the public can switch to a competitor. Neither of which apply here. BÉ and Luas staff both bet on "pissing off the public" with their strike action, and both actions ended with zero public support and the union slinking away, tail between their legs.

This strike is basically no different. At best they might secure themselves a slightly better pay deal, but it'll cost them jobs further down the line as IÉ go bankrupt.

Not sure if you're trolling or seriously deluded.

ThunbergsAreGo

Randle P. McMurphy wrote: »

Not sure if you're trolling or seriously deluded.

You think those strikes had public support?

http://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/luas-strike-poll-finds-80-11138700

http://www.thejournal.ie/striking-rail-workers-poll-3672179-Oct2017/

Hitman3000

seamus wrote:

You see, that's only effective where politicians can get involved or the public can switch to a competitor. Neither of which apply here. BÉ and Luas staff both bet on "pissing off the public" with their strike action, and both actions ended with zero public support and the union slinking away, tail between their legs.

The union is there for their members not the public. Politicians won't get involved publicly. Switch to a competitor, who?

Wanderer78

Program 'atomisation' has been extremely successful!

bennyl10

Hitman3000 wrote: »

They already work. You do understand inflation and workers seeking a rise to offset inflation.

55K is a perfectly respectable, well paying wage!!
They were offered a near 2% increase! More than most people have even come close to seeing!

Stop bring a lazy so and so, take the generous increase the near insolvent company has offered, and get back to bleeding work!

Hitman3000

naughtb4 wrote:

You think those strikes had public support?

Do you think workers are concerned or should be concerned with the opinions of the public?

Hitman3000

bennyl10 wrote:

55K is a perfectly respectable, well paying wage!! They were offered a near 2% increase! More than most people have even come close to seeing!

Are all workers on 55k? Forget about average nonsense it means nothing. What they were offered is irrelevant they are entitled to seek a pay rise of their own figure. What others are getting, again irrelevant.

speedboatchase

Hitman3000 wrote: »

speedboatchase wrote:

They're seeking increases without any productivity strings attached. Their current average salary is €54,647 in a company that's losing money. There's your proof.

Averages mean nothing. E.g. 5 guys, 1 has 10 million the others on minimum wage but based on averages they are all millionaires.

The majority of them are absolutely nowhere near minimum wage and you know it, apologist. Drivers start on €43,716 and rises to €55,238 in increments after 10 years. Hilariously overpaid and driving the company into the ground.

seamus

Randle P. McMurphy wrote: »

Not sure if you're trolling or seriously deluded.

You're probably going to try and tell me now that both were big wins for the unions and had full public support. I recall Siptu trying to claim a good outcome in the Luas dispute, a claim which everyone found amusing.

Both were absolute disasters for the unions. The members came out of the strikes worse off then they'd gone in. The Luas staff got a small increase, but it cost them bonuses. A net loss for them. Bus Eireann staff ended up agreeing to widespread layoffs.

And neither had anything approaching strong public support.

Hitman3000

speedboatchase wrote:

The majority of them are absolutely nowhere near minimum wage and you know it, apologist. Drivers start on €43,716 and rises to €55,238 in increments after 10 years. Hilariously overpaid and driving the company into the ground.

Are all employees of IR drivers? Take your time before you answer.

baylah17

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Switch to a competitor, who?

Private Bus companies using the motorway network and whoever buys the tangible assets when IR is placed in liquidation.

Guy:Incognito

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Are you denying the rights of workers to seek a pay rise?

To what end should they be supported in their rights? Do the employer's just have to pay them whatever they want whenever they feel entitled? Do we just engage in an endless loop of luas -> bus -> train driver pay increases.