Assumed ingredients in food/drink ordered?

cormie

Hey folks,
Just curious on this one. Say if somebody ordered, for example, a cappuccino and it was made with almond milk, is there any legal requirement for it to be made with milk meant for baby cows, based on it being ordered using a word typically associated with something that's traditionally made with certain ingredients?

Also, is there an onus on the staff to verbally (or otherwise) inform the customer of potential allergens, or is the onus on the customer to let the staff know of allergies?

Any feedback would be great

brynne

My question to you is, why would you want to withhold that information? I'm not a vegan, but I am a veggie who prefers not to use dairy milk. Assuming you aren't opening a vegan cafe - in which case customers would expect non-dairy milk - what are you hoping to achieve by surruptitiously substituting almond milk for dairy? Death by anaphylactic shock?

Suggest you Google EU regulations on labelling of common allergens before thinking any further on this.

cormie

It's not for me, it's just a hypothetical situation really. In terms of why, well people are easily put off by fear of the unknown. If you ask someone what milk they would like, almond, oat, soy or rice milk for example, and they've never had any of them, they are far more likely to cancel the order than they would be likely to complain or have any problem with the taste of a plant milk.

I remember being in one establishment and there was an oul lad in and got up to buy one of the desserts on display and the staff member told him they were all vegan and he asked what's that and he ended up not getting one. If they didn't mention this I'd bet he would have bought one and thoroughly enjoyed it!

OnDraught

It’s more likely he’d try it and because he’s not aware it’s not dairy he will think there’s something wrong with it. People have tastebuds.

brynne

Ok. I understand and, yes, I think you're right. I know my husband would automatically refuse something made with 'hippy milk'. I've never yet managed to persuade him to try my almond milk, though I came to the conclusion fairly quickly that I didn't like it in tea or coffee. I much prefer it to dairy on breakfast cereal, but I'm afraid the non-creaminess (the very thing that I like about it) would probably put a lot of people off - a bit like skimmed milk!

Apologies for the tone of my previous post. I thought you were actively considering this as some sort of business gimmick.

cormie

That's definitely a point to take into consideration, on the other hand, they may also think it's the best they've ever had and go out of their way to go back to that one place for their daily

I'm curious to what extent the ingredients of such orders need to be communicated though.

I mean if somebody asks for a glass of almond milk, and they are served almond flavoured dairy milk, or if someone asks for a latte and it's made with rice milk, where is the line drawn for how ambiguous a name relates to the ingredients I wonder?

brynne

No, on that, the EU regs are very clear. Because nuts and dairy are both among the 14 common allergens covered by the legislation, you couldn't get away with not labelling. Although most people with allergies are naturally cautious about what they're consuming, the onus is very much on the business to label every food or drink item that contains a recognised allergen.

cormie

Thanks for the input. Looking into it, I see there's people with allergies to rice and oats and almost everything. So legislation only covers the 14 most common ones I guess?

So would a blackboard with ingredients listed be sufficient if it was a coffee shop for example and if a customer were to not pay attention to this and order a latte that was clearly labelled as being provided with a nut milk, that it's their fault?

brynne

Yes, that's right. Legislation only covers the most common allergens.

What a lot of cafes do is to number the 14 allergens on one, clearly visible, master list (such as a blackboard), and then include the relevant numbers in brackets beside each menu item that contains them. But you have to be quite specific with things like nuts and gluten - you have to say what sort of nuts something contains or what sort of cereal.

cormie

Thanks for the info. If a blackboard is enough to relay the info then I guess you could still by default serve something like an almond milk latte instead of using dairy milk and have yourself covered then as long as it's listed properly on the menu?

duploelabs

Jesus F**king christ. The amount of misinformation spouted here is unreal. If you have any concern about allergies as a consumer regarding legislation, talk to the fsai (https://www.fsai.ie/). If you're a cafe operator, talk to your district EHO (environmental health officer) as these two bodies will both regulate and enforce structures to what you can or can't display or serve, not some keyboard knowitalls.

brynne

duploelabs wrote: »

Jesus F**king christ. The amount of misinformation spouted here is unreal. If you have any concern about allergies as a consumer regarding legislation, talk to the fsai (https://www.fsai.ie/). If you're a cafe operator, talk to your district EHO (environmental health officer) as these two bodies will both regulate and enforce structures to what you can or can't display or serve, not some keyboard knowitalls.

Hey, calling me a 'keyboard knowitall' is a little harsh. I thought I made my position quite clear in my first post. In fact, my initial reaction was pretty similar to yours. I backed off when the OP said that he was envisaging a theoretical situation, and the information was not tied into any business idea. I continued - a very general - conversation in that light.

I'm certainly no expert, but I'm not a complete ignoramus either. I run a B&B and had a long and interesting discussion with the HSE inspector around labelling of allergens in respect of the breakfasts I serve. (Interesting, because, at the time, there were no clear labelling guidelines for B&B owners - although, as a 'caterer', the EU legislation applies equally to me as to a cafe owner.)

cormie

Thanks again for the input. I'm not a cafe operator or a consumer concerned with allergens. I'm merely curious from a business perspective in terms of giving someone something different than what is assumed to be the regular ingredients of something, it doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with allergens, but that was just a concern of course, but more so as to whether there's pre-defined compositions of something based on the name used when a customer orders?

duploelabs

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the input. I'm not a cafe operator or a consumer concerned with allergens. I'm merely curious from a business perspective in terms of giving someone something different than what is assumed to be the regular ingredients of something, it doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with allergens, but that was just a concern of course, but more so as to whether there's pre-defined compositions of something based on the name used when a customer orders?

If the dish contains any of the 14 allergens that are contained here https://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/food_information/14_allergens.html then the consumer must be informed on the menu, otherwise it's up to the consumer if they have an allergy that isn't contained in that 14 (my friend who's a fellow chef is allergic to beta carotene) then it's up to the consumer to ask the FOH staff and inform them of this, they will then consult with the kitchen to see if said ingredient is contained. If you're concerned with the providence of any ingredient then ask, the kitchen will have all that documentation as the produce has to be traced

cormie

Thanks again for the input. So just as long as the ingredients are listed on a blackboard/menu, the actual names used are irrelevant? So if someone had "cappuccino" as an item name on the blackboard and it was listed with ingredients of almonds, sesame seeds and cocoa (so not even any coffee), there'd be no issues there?

duploelabs

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the input. So just as long as the ingredients are listed on a blackboard/menu, the actual names used are irrelevant? So if someone had "cappuccino" as an item name on the blackboard and it was listed with ingredients of almonds, sesame seeds and cocoa (so not even any coffee), there'd be no issues there?

Unless there are allergens involved then no. The bastardisation of dishes with chefs doing their own twists on classics is extensive, but not illegal. I've seen 'Eggs Benedict' published on a menu but loaded with pulled pork, avocado and others, whereas that's not traditionally an Eggs Benedict it isn't against the law

Cows Go µ

cormie wrote: »

If you ask someone what milk they would like, almond, oat, soy or rice milk for example, and they've never had any of them, they are far more likely to cancel the order than they would be likely to complain or have any problem with the taste of a plant milk.

Personally if asked that question, I would immediately cancel the order because I have tasted all of them and find them all to be disgusting. I'm lactose intolerant and I would rather make myself sick by drinking regular milk than drink any of those. Luckily they brought out lactose free milk so I can have it instead at home though restaurants rarely have it so I just have to avoid dairy altogether

Graham

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the input. So just as long as the ingredients are listed on a blackboard/menu, the actual names used are irrelevant? So if someone had "cappuccino" as an item name on the blackboard and it was listed with ingredients of almonds, sesame seeds and cocoa (so not even any coffee), there'd be no issues there?

ok, my curiosity can take it no more.

Why on earth would any establishment want to deliberately mislead customers into 'trying' something else.

If I go into a coffee shop and order a white coffee of any variety, I expect coffee with milk. Real, genuine, dairy mail not some nut-dust-suspension.

I certainly don't expect to have to examine the menu boards to work out what's in a white coffee.

forumuser

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the input. So just as long as the ingredients are listed on a blackboard/menu, the actual names used are irrelevant? So if someone had "cappuccino" as an item name on the blackboard and it was listed with ingredients of almonds, sesame seeds and cocoa (so not even any coffee), there'd be no issues there?

There is legislation around labelling and that descriptions shouldn't mislead customers. I'm not sure if that applies to a names displayed in cafes etc.

duploelabs

forumuser wrote: »

There is legislation around labelling and that descriptions shouldn't mislead customers. I'm not sure if that applies to a names displayed in cafes etc.

No, it doesn't whatsoever.

brynne

Graham wrote: »

I certainly don't expect to have to examine the menu boards to work out what's in a white coffee.

And that's where I think the problem lies.

While I expect a high-end chef to put their own twist on traditional dishes and drinks, somehow I feel that expecting a customer with a nut allergy to check the blackboard when ordering a common beverage that they could reasonably expect to be made with dairy milk, is just asking for litigation. If a cafe was to go down that route, I feel the staff would have a duty of care to verbally inform their customers, rather than rely on a written menu.

StupidLikeAFox

cormie wrote: »

So would a blackboard with ingredients listed be sufficient if it was a coffee shop for example and if a customer were to not pay attention to this and order a latte that was clearly labelled as being provided with a nut milk, that it's their fault?

Why would a business do this though? What business would knowingly trick or deceive someone into trying something they weren't expecting. Even if it was nice, it's still not something a customer would be expecting so you would immediately think there was something off with your coffee. At worst, someone with a nut allergy could order a cappuccino in good faith, their throat could swell up after a mouthful of it and theres a serious risk they could die.

Legality is one aspect, but if you are pulling a fast one like this, at best you will piss off a lot of your customers or at worst you will kill them!

Caranica

This has another interesting angle. Go into a sandwich place/deli and order a sandwich. 99% of the time what's offered as "butter" is some sort of cheaper spread. I've never seen any signs up to say that it's not actual butter but I can only think of a handful of places that use real butter

Graham

Caranica wrote: »

This has another interesting angle. Go into a sandwich place/deli and order a sandwich. 99% of the time what's offered as "butter" is some sort of cheaper spread. I've never seen any signs up to say that it's not actual butter but I can only think of a handful of places that use real butter

Ugh, another pet peeve. No thanks I really don’t want you to trowel 5 tablespoons of hydrogenated vegetable oil over my lunch.

That annoyance would pale into nothingness compared to someone who messed with my coffee though.

Victor

There has been suggestion that it be made illegal to label nut products a 'milk'.

cormie wrote: »

So would a blackboard with ingredients listed

What happens if a staff member erases something from the blackboard?

cormie

Cows Go µ wrote: »

Personally if asked that question, I would immediately cancel the order because I have tasted all of them and find them all to be disgusting. I'm lactose intolerant and I would rather make myself sick by drinking regular milk than drink any of those. Luckily they brought out lactose free milk so I can have it instead at home though restaurants rarely have it so I just have to avoid dairy altogether

Ah now I'm sure you haven't tried all of them, there's countless varieties of plant milks; oat, coconut, hemp, cashew, hazelnut, almond, brazil, soy, rice, quinoa and more, countless variations; roasted nuts, brown rice etc etc, countless ways they are made sweetened, naturally sweet, not sweet at all, added salt, added vitamins etc and there's countless brands. Then there's also making your own at home, or the cafe might make their own in house even.

This stuff is really nice: https://shop.supervalu.ie/shopping/health-wellness-dairy-free-vitariz-organic-rice-milk-with-almond-1-litre-/p-1143250000

What if they offered to make it for you anyway and if you didn't like it, you could get a refund?

Graham wrote: »

ok, my curiosity can take it no more.

Why on earth would any establishment want to deliberately mislead customers into 'trying' something else.

If I go into a coffee shop and order a white coffee of any variety, I expect coffee with milk. Real, genuine, dairy mail not some nut-dust-suspension.

I certainly don't expect to have to examine the menu boards to work out what's in a white coffee.

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Why would a business do this though? What business would knowingly trick or deceive someone into trying something they weren't expecting. Even if it was nice, it's still not something a customer would be expecting so you would immediately think there was something off with your coffee. At worst, someone with a nut allergy could order a cappuccino in good faith, their throat could swell up after a mouthful of it and theres a serious risk they could die.

Legality is one aspect, but if you are pulling a fast one like this, at best you will piss off a lot of your customers or at worst you will kill them!

Well people are waking up to the health and environmental implications of consuming animal products in general, not to mention the moral and ethical side of things and there's a huge surge in demand for plant milks, as well as a surge in establishments that don't serve any animal products at all.

It's not about wanting to deliberately mislead customers or trick or deceive them, but more about changing the status quo for what should be considered normal or acceptable and also at the same time, not losing a sale because somebody may fear the unknown, when in fact they may enjoy it even more than if it were made with milk meant for baby cows. If a patron is adamant on having milk meant for baby cows with the coffee, then they wouldn't buy anything anyway it wasn't on the menu, so no loss.

If cappuccinos are made by default using oat milk by one such place, who's to say that's wrong or deceitful, even if it's not what has been conventionally done in the past.

There's growing awareness, interest and demand in substituting plant foods for animal foods and it's only been getting stronger. Perhaps to a degree that people will know not to assume they're getting animal flesh or secretions when they order something?

The allergy issue is the hurdle. How to not scare people away from ordering what they might really enjoy and come back again and again, while at the same time not getting into hot water if someone assumes the ingredients and has a bad reaction.

OnDraught

Nobody is going to order vegan deserts or vegan coffee unless they’re a vegan. I’ve had the misfortune of trying a selection of vegan ‘chocolate’ deserts and they were extremely unpleasant.

Where do you draw the line anyway? Somebody orders a chicken fillet roll and you give them Quorn chicken? How would you like it if you were eating or drinking something you assumed to be vegan but someone decided you might like real milk in it?

cormie

OnDraught wrote: »

Nobody is going to order vegan deserts or vegan coffee unless they’re a vegan. I’ve had the misfortune of trying a selection of vegan ‘chocolate’ deserts and they were extremely unpleasant.

Where do you draw the line anyway? Somebody orders a chicken fillet roll and you give them Quorn chicken? How would you like it if you were eating or drinking something you assumed to be vegan but someone decided you might like real milk in it?

I'm sorry, but that's completely untrue to say nobody is going to order vegan desserts or coffee unless they're a vegan. Can I ask what desserts you had that were extremely unpleasant and where you had them?

As with any foods, vegan or not, there's always going to be nice and not so nice options and results from the kitchen. I remember eating at a restaurant that's been open over 20 years. At first they were just your average restaurant, then some years after opening they switched to have everything organic, then some years after that they switched to being vegetarian, then some years after that they switched to be fully vegan. The food was amazing and they are still serving the same customers as they were 20 years ago, who continue to go there for the taste and textures, even though the ingredients have changed. You put chocolate in inverted commas too, don't forget that chocolate by definition is vegan. You've probably had more than a few desserts, chocolates, biscuits etc that were in fact vegan without even realising it.

I think in general, vegans are scrupulous when it comes to what they are ordering and don't assume anything to be vegan, there's so many products derived from animals it's insane.

It is interesting where the line is drawn though. I believe terms like gluten free, organic etc are pretty strict as to where they can be used, but plant based etc, well to talk about misleading, look here: http://www.thecompletenatural.ie

Not only misleading, but complete misinformation too.

cormie

brynne wrote: »

And that's where I think the problem lies.

While I expect a high-end chef to put their own twist on traditional dishes and drinks, somehow I feel that expecting a customer with a nut allergy to check the blackboard when ordering a common beverage that they could reasonably expect to be made with dairy milk, is just asking for litigation. If a cafe was to go down that route, I feel the staff would have a duty of care to verbally inform their customers, rather than rely on a written menu.

Yeah this is the ultimate question I guess. Is it leaving them open to litigation, even though they've followed the required practices of labelling on blackboards etc.

Also, should litigation ensue, I wonder what the result would be. I mean someone with an allergy should really be taking care when ordering no matter what it is, the same way a vegan may need to ascertain that there's no animal products in something.

duploelabs

cormie wrote: »

Yeah this is the ultimate question I guess. Is it leaving them open to litigation, even though they've followed the required practices of labelling on blackboards etc.

Also, should litigation ensue, I wonder what the result would be. I mean someone with an allergy should really be taking care when ordering no matter what it is, the same way a vegan may need to ascertain that there's no animal products in something.

Do you not read the answers I posted earlier?

cormie

Yep and they certainly seem to put all responsibility on the consumer where the cafe has listed ingredients and allergens on the menu/blackboard. I'm not too up to scratch on legal proceedings, but I guess someone could still at least attempt to sue a cafe in the above scenario?