Assumed ingredients in food/drink ordered?

cormie

Hey folks,
Just curious on this one. Say if somebody ordered, for example, a cappuccino and it was made with almond milk, is there any legal requirement for it to be made with milk meant for baby cows, based on it being ordered using a word typically associated with something that's traditionally made with certain ingredients?

Also, is there an onus on the staff to verbally (or otherwise) inform the customer of potential allergens, or is the onus on the customer to let the staff know of allergies?

Any feedback would be great

brynne

My question to you is, why would you want to withhold that information? I'm not a vegan, but I am a veggie who prefers not to use dairy milk. Assuming you aren't opening a vegan cafe - in which case customers would expect non-dairy milk - what are you hoping to achieve by surruptitiously substituting almond milk for dairy? Death by anaphylactic shock?

Suggest you Google EU regulations on labelling of common allergens before thinking any further on this.

cormie

It's not for me, it's just a hypothetical situation really. In terms of why, well people are easily put off by fear of the unknown. If you ask someone what milk they would like, almond, oat, soy or rice milk for example, and they've never had any of them, they are far more likely to cancel the order than they would be likely to complain or have any problem with the taste of a plant milk.

I remember being in one establishment and there was an oul lad in and got up to buy one of the desserts on display and the staff member told him they were all vegan and he asked what's that and he ended up not getting one. If they didn't mention this I'd bet he would have bought one and thoroughly enjoyed it!

OnDraught

It’s more likely he’d try it and because he’s not aware it’s not dairy he will think there’s something wrong with it. People have tastebuds.

brynne

Ok. I understand and, yes, I think you're right. I know my husband would automatically refuse something made with 'hippy milk'. I've never yet managed to persuade him to try my almond milk, though I came to the conclusion fairly quickly that I didn't like it in tea or coffee. I much prefer it to dairy on breakfast cereal, but I'm afraid the non-creaminess (the very thing that I like about it) would probably put a lot of people off - a bit like skimmed milk!

Apologies for the tone of my previous post. I thought you were actively considering this as some sort of business gimmick.

cormie

That's definitely a point to take into consideration, on the other hand, they may also think it's the best they've ever had and go out of their way to go back to that one place for their daily

I'm curious to what extent the ingredients of such orders need to be communicated though.

I mean if somebody asks for a glass of almond milk, and they are served almond flavoured dairy milk, or if someone asks for a latte and it's made with rice milk, where is the line drawn for how ambiguous a name relates to the ingredients I wonder?

brynne

No, on that, the EU regs are very clear. Because nuts and dairy are both among the 14 common allergens covered by the legislation, you couldn't get away with not labelling. Although most people with allergies are naturally cautious about what they're consuming, the onus is very much on the business to label every food or drink item that contains a recognised allergen.

cormie

Thanks for the input. Looking into it, I see there's people with allergies to rice and oats and almost everything. So legislation only covers the 14 most common ones I guess?

So would a blackboard with ingredients listed be sufficient if it was a coffee shop for example and if a customer were to not pay attention to this and order a latte that was clearly labelled as being provided with a nut milk, that it's their fault?

brynne

Yes, that's right. Legislation only covers the most common allergens.

What a lot of cafes do is to number the 14 allergens on one, clearly visible, master list (such as a blackboard), and then include the relevant numbers in brackets beside each menu item that contains them. But you have to be quite specific with things like nuts and gluten - you have to say what sort of nuts something contains or what sort of cereal.

cormie

Thanks for the info. If a blackboard is enough to relay the info then I guess you could still by default serve something like an almond milk latte instead of using dairy milk and have yourself covered then as long as it's listed properly on the menu?

duploelabs

Jesus F**king christ. The amount of misinformation spouted here is unreal. If you have any concern about allergies as a consumer regarding legislation, talk to the fsai (https://www.fsai.ie/). If you're a cafe operator, talk to your district EHO (environmental health officer) as these two bodies will both regulate and enforce structures to what you can or can't display or serve, not some keyboard knowitalls.

brynne

duploelabs wrote: »

Jesus F**king christ. The amount of misinformation spouted here is unreal. If you have any concern about allergies as a consumer regarding legislation, talk to the fsai (https://www.fsai.ie/). If you're a cafe operator, talk to your district EHO (environmental health officer) as these two bodies will both regulate and enforce structures to what you can or can't display or serve, not some keyboard knowitalls.

Hey, calling me a 'keyboard knowitall' is a little harsh. I thought I made my position quite clear in my first post. In fact, my initial reaction was pretty similar to yours. I backed off when the OP said that he was envisaging a theoretical situation, and the information was not tied into any business idea. I continued - a very general - conversation in that light.

I'm certainly no expert, but I'm not a complete ignoramus either. I run a B&B and had a long and interesting discussion with the HSE inspector around labelling of allergens in respect of the breakfasts I serve. (Interesting, because, at the time, there were no clear labelling guidelines for B&B owners - although, as a 'caterer', the EU legislation applies equally to me as to a cafe owner.)

cormie

Thanks again for the input. I'm not a cafe operator or a consumer concerned with allergens. I'm merely curious from a business perspective in terms of giving someone something different than what is assumed to be the regular ingredients of something, it doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with allergens, but that was just a concern of course, but more so as to whether there's pre-defined compositions of something based on the name used when a customer orders?

duploelabs

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the input. I'm not a cafe operator or a consumer concerned with allergens. I'm merely curious from a business perspective in terms of giving someone something different than what is assumed to be the regular ingredients of something, it doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with allergens, but that was just a concern of course, but more so as to whether there's pre-defined compositions of something based on the name used when a customer orders?

If the dish contains any of the 14 allergens that are contained here https://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/food_information/14_allergens.html then the consumer must be informed on the menu, otherwise it's up to the consumer if they have an allergy that isn't contained in that 14 (my friend who's a fellow chef is allergic to beta carotene) then it's up to the consumer to ask the FOH staff and inform them of this, they will then consult with the kitchen to see if said ingredient is contained. If you're concerned with the providence of any ingredient then ask, the kitchen will have all that documentation as the produce has to be traced

cormie

Thanks again for the input. So just as long as the ingredients are listed on a blackboard/menu, the actual names used are irrelevant? So if someone had "cappuccino" as an item name on the blackboard and it was listed with ingredients of almonds, sesame seeds and cocoa (so not even any coffee), there'd be no issues there?

duploelabs

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the input. So just as long as the ingredients are listed on a blackboard/menu, the actual names used are irrelevant? So if someone had "cappuccino" as an item name on the blackboard and it was listed with ingredients of almonds, sesame seeds and cocoa (so not even any coffee), there'd be no issues there?

Unless there are allergens involved then no. The bastardisation of dishes with chefs doing their own twists on classics is extensive, but not illegal. I've seen 'Eggs Benedict' published on a menu but loaded with pulled pork, avocado and others, whereas that's not traditionally an Eggs Benedict it isn't against the law

Cows Go µ

cormie wrote: »

If you ask someone what milk they would like, almond, oat, soy or rice milk for example, and they've never had any of them, they are far more likely to cancel the order than they would be likely to complain or have any problem with the taste of a plant milk.

Personally if asked that question, I would immediately cancel the order because I have tasted all of them and find them all to be disgusting. I'm lactose intolerant and I would rather make myself sick by drinking regular milk than drink any of those. Luckily they brought out lactose free milk so I can have it instead at home though restaurants rarely have it so I just have to avoid dairy altogether

Graham

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the input. So just as long as the ingredients are listed on a blackboard/menu, the actual names used are irrelevant? So if someone had "cappuccino" as an item name on the blackboard and it was listed with ingredients of almonds, sesame seeds and cocoa (so not even any coffee), there'd be no issues there?

ok, my curiosity can take it no more.

Why on earth would any establishment want to deliberately mislead customers into 'trying' something else.

If I go into a coffee shop and order a white coffee of any variety, I expect coffee with milk. Real, genuine, dairy mail not some nut-dust-suspension.

I certainly don't expect to have to examine the menu boards to work out what's in a white coffee.

forumuser

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the input. So just as long as the ingredients are listed on a blackboard/menu, the actual names used are irrelevant? So if someone had "cappuccino" as an item name on the blackboard and it was listed with ingredients of almonds, sesame seeds and cocoa (so not even any coffee), there'd be no issues there?

There is legislation around labelling and that descriptions shouldn't mislead customers. I'm not sure if that applies to a names displayed in cafes etc.

duploelabs

forumuser wrote: »

There is legislation around labelling and that descriptions shouldn't mislead customers. I'm not sure if that applies to a names displayed in cafes etc.

No, it doesn't whatsoever.

brynne

Graham wrote: »

I certainly don't expect to have to examine the menu boards to work out what's in a white coffee.

And that's where I think the problem lies.

While I expect a high-end chef to put their own twist on traditional dishes and drinks, somehow I feel that expecting a customer with a nut allergy to check the blackboard when ordering a common beverage that they could reasonably expect to be made with dairy milk, is just asking for litigation. If a cafe was to go down that route, I feel the staff would have a duty of care to verbally inform their customers, rather than rely on a written menu.

StupidLikeAFox

cormie wrote: »

So would a blackboard with ingredients listed be sufficient if it was a coffee shop for example and if a customer were to not pay attention to this and order a latte that was clearly labelled as being provided with a nut milk, that it's their fault?

Why would a business do this though? What business would knowingly trick or deceive someone into trying something they weren't expecting. Even if it was nice, it's still not something a customer would be expecting so you would immediately think there was something off with your coffee. At worst, someone with a nut allergy could order a cappuccino in good faith, their throat could swell up after a mouthful of it and theres a serious risk they could die.

Legality is one aspect, but if you are pulling a fast one like this, at best you will piss off a lot of your customers or at worst you will kill them!

Caranica

This has another interesting angle. Go into a sandwich place/deli and order a sandwich. 99% of the time what's offered as "butter" is some sort of cheaper spread. I've never seen any signs up to say that it's not actual butter but I can only think of a handful of places that use real butter

Graham

Caranica wrote: »

This has another interesting angle. Go into a sandwich place/deli and order a sandwich. 99% of the time what's offered as "butter" is some sort of cheaper spread. I've never seen any signs up to say that it's not actual butter but I can only think of a handful of places that use real butter

Ugh, another pet peeve. No thanks I really don’t want you to trowel 5 tablespoons of hydrogenated vegetable oil over my lunch.

That annoyance would pale into nothingness compared to someone who messed with my coffee though.

Victor

There has been suggestion that it be made illegal to label nut products a 'milk'.

cormie wrote: »

So would a blackboard with ingredients listed

What happens if a staff member erases something from the blackboard?

cormie

Cows Go µ wrote: »

Personally if asked that question, I would immediately cancel the order because I have tasted all of them and find them all to be disgusting. I'm lactose intolerant and I would rather make myself sick by drinking regular milk than drink any of those. Luckily they brought out lactose free milk so I can have it instead at home though restaurants rarely have it so I just have to avoid dairy altogether

Ah now I'm sure you haven't tried all of them, there's countless varieties of plant milks; oat, coconut, hemp, cashew, hazelnut, almond, brazil, soy, rice, quinoa and more, countless variations; roasted nuts, brown rice etc etc, countless ways they are made sweetened, naturally sweet, not sweet at all, added salt, added vitamins etc and there's countless brands. Then there's also making your own at home, or the cafe might make their own in house even.

This stuff is really nice: https://shop.supervalu.ie/shopping/health-wellness-dairy-free-vitariz-organic-rice-milk-with-almond-1-litre-/p-1143250000

What if they offered to make it for you anyway and if you didn't like it, you could get a refund?

Graham wrote: »

ok, my curiosity can take it no more.

Why on earth would any establishment want to deliberately mislead customers into 'trying' something else.

If I go into a coffee shop and order a white coffee of any variety, I expect coffee with milk. Real, genuine, dairy mail not some nut-dust-suspension.

I certainly don't expect to have to examine the menu boards to work out what's in a white coffee.

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Why would a business do this though? What business would knowingly trick or deceive someone into trying something they weren't expecting. Even if it was nice, it's still not something a customer would be expecting so you would immediately think there was something off with your coffee. At worst, someone with a nut allergy could order a cappuccino in good faith, their throat could swell up after a mouthful of it and theres a serious risk they could die.

Legality is one aspect, but if you are pulling a fast one like this, at best you will piss off a lot of your customers or at worst you will kill them!

Well people are waking up to the health and environmental implications of consuming animal products in general, not to mention the moral and ethical side of things and there's a huge surge in demand for plant milks, as well as a surge in establishments that don't serve any animal products at all.

It's not about wanting to deliberately mislead customers or trick or deceive them, but more about changing the status quo for what should be considered normal or acceptable and also at the same time, not losing a sale because somebody may fear the unknown, when in fact they may enjoy it even more than if it were made with milk meant for baby cows. If a patron is adamant on having milk meant for baby cows with the coffee, then they wouldn't buy anything anyway it wasn't on the menu, so no loss.

If cappuccinos are made by default using oat milk by one such place, who's to say that's wrong or deceitful, even if it's not what has been conventionally done in the past.

There's growing awareness, interest and demand in substituting plant foods for animal foods and it's only been getting stronger. Perhaps to a degree that people will know not to assume they're getting animal flesh or secretions when they order something?

The allergy issue is the hurdle. How to not scare people away from ordering what they might really enjoy and come back again and again, while at the same time not getting into hot water if someone assumes the ingredients and has a bad reaction.

OnDraught

Nobody is going to order vegan deserts or vegan coffee unless they’re a vegan. I’ve had the misfortune of trying a selection of vegan ‘chocolate’ deserts and they were extremely unpleasant.

Where do you draw the line anyway? Somebody orders a chicken fillet roll and you give them Quorn chicken? How would you like it if you were eating or drinking something you assumed to be vegan but someone decided you might like real milk in it?

cormie

OnDraught wrote: »

Nobody is going to order vegan deserts or vegan coffee unless they’re a vegan. I’ve had the misfortune of trying a selection of vegan ‘chocolate’ deserts and they were extremely unpleasant.

Where do you draw the line anyway? Somebody orders a chicken fillet roll and you give them Quorn chicken? How would you like it if you were eating or drinking something you assumed to be vegan but someone decided you might like real milk in it?

I'm sorry, but that's completely untrue to say nobody is going to order vegan desserts or coffee unless they're a vegan. Can I ask what desserts you had that were extremely unpleasant and where you had them?

As with any foods, vegan or not, there's always going to be nice and not so nice options and results from the kitchen. I remember eating at a restaurant that's been open over 20 years. At first they were just your average restaurant, then some years after opening they switched to have everything organic, then some years after that they switched to being vegetarian, then some years after that they switched to be fully vegan. The food was amazing and they are still serving the same customers as they were 20 years ago, who continue to go there for the taste and textures, even though the ingredients have changed. You put chocolate in inverted commas too, don't forget that chocolate by definition is vegan. You've probably had more than a few desserts, chocolates, biscuits etc that were in fact vegan without even realising it.

I think in general, vegans are scrupulous when it comes to what they are ordering and don't assume anything to be vegan, there's so many products derived from animals it's insane.

It is interesting where the line is drawn though. I believe terms like gluten free, organic etc are pretty strict as to where they can be used, but plant based etc, well to talk about misleading, look here: http://www.thecompletenatural.ie

Not only misleading, but complete misinformation too.

cormie

brynne wrote: »

And that's where I think the problem lies.

While I expect a high-end chef to put their own twist on traditional dishes and drinks, somehow I feel that expecting a customer with a nut allergy to check the blackboard when ordering a common beverage that they could reasonably expect to be made with dairy milk, is just asking for litigation. If a cafe was to go down that route, I feel the staff would have a duty of care to verbally inform their customers, rather than rely on a written menu.

Yeah this is the ultimate question I guess. Is it leaving them open to litigation, even though they've followed the required practices of labelling on blackboards etc.

Also, should litigation ensue, I wonder what the result would be. I mean someone with an allergy should really be taking care when ordering no matter what it is, the same way a vegan may need to ascertain that there's no animal products in something.

duploelabs

cormie wrote: »

Yeah this is the ultimate question I guess. Is it leaving them open to litigation, even though they've followed the required practices of labelling on blackboards etc.

Also, should litigation ensue, I wonder what the result would be. I mean someone with an allergy should really be taking care when ordering no matter what it is, the same way a vegan may need to ascertain that there's no animal products in something.

Do you not read the answers I posted earlier?

cormie

Yep and they certainly seem to put all responsibility on the consumer where the cafe has listed ingredients and allergens on the menu/blackboard. I'm not too up to scratch on legal proceedings, but I guess someone could still at least attempt to sue a cafe in the above scenario?

OnDraught

cormie wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that's completely untrue to say nobody is going to order vegan desserts or coffee unless they're a vegan. Can I ask what desserts you had that were extremely unpleasant and where you had them?

They were a selection my other half brought back to try before giving them to her lactose intolerant niece. There were 5 or 6 different ones.

cormie wrote: »

You put chocolate in inverted commas too, don't forget that chocolate by definition is vegan. You've probably had more than a few desserts, chocolates, biscuits etc that were in fact vegan without even realising it.

You may have a poor palate but most people do not. I would be fully aware if there was something amiss with what I ordered. Assuming you are a vegan you have to remember that you now have most likely forgotten what a proper cappuccino or truffle taste like. When I started eating meat after being a vegetarian for 8 years I was horrified at the meat substitutes I enjoyed only a few weeks before.

cormie wrote: »

I think in general, vegans are scrupulous when it comes to what they are ordering and don't assume anything to be vegan, there's so many products derived from animals it's insane.

You have failed to answer my question here though. If somebody snuck dairy as an ingredient in to your food in an underhanded way but you enjoyed it before being told what happened would you be ok with that?

cormie

duploelabs wrote: »

Unless there are allergens involved then no. The bastardisation of dishes with chefs doing their own twists on classics is extensive, but not illegal. I've seen 'Eggs Benedict' published on a menu but loaded with pulled pork, avocado and others, whereas that's not traditionally an Eggs Benedict it isn't against the law

Actually I think I overlooked where you say "unless there are allergens involved, then no"... so what about the case of calling a cappucino a cappucino even though it's made with almonds, sesame seeds and cocoa, so when there are allergens involved? What extra extent does the cafe need to go to make the customer aware of this other than ingredients listed on the menu/blackboard?

duploelabs

cormie wrote: »

Actually I think I overlooked where you say "unless there are allergens involved, then no"... so what about the case of calling a cappucino a cappucino even though it's made with almonds, sesame seeds and cocoa, so when there are allergens involved? What extra extent does the cafe need to go to make the customer aware of this other than ingredients listed on the menu/blackboard?

Oh FFS, unless there are one of the aforementioned allergens involved in the dish then there is no responsibility on the cafe operator to inform. End of. And your talk of litigation outside display of the 14 allergens is just absolute b*llocks and you'd get laughed out of court

dee_mc

If you want to introduce customers to new things, offer them as clearly marked freebies when they order their regular. Make them a tiny almond milk cappuccino or whatever so they can taste it and decide for themselves if they want to order one in the future.
Any notion of secretly giving people a plant-based milk alternative as a base for their coffee drink is just silly, especially on the basis that you think they'll be ok with it just because they didn't specify they wanted a cow's milk cappuccino or whatever! People like to get what they pay for, but yeah, if you offer the opportunity to consciously try an alternative, and if they like it, then maybe they will turn away from the dairy 'dark side'.
I don't drink milk and I choose to drink my coffee black, so what you're suggesting wouldn't effect me, but to take my mum as an example, she's allergic to soya and oats and she always feels ill after drinking almond milk, so even though these aren't on the specified allergens list, if you were to quietly serve a coffee drink using one of these alternatives you'd have one (violently) sick customer on your hands.
Your idea reminds me a bit of when people conceal vegetables in young children's food - longterm it doesn't work, because you're not teaching them to try something new by trying to fool them into eating something they don't want, even if it is for the greater good.

cormie

OnDraught wrote: »

They were a selection my other half brought back to try before giving them to her lactose intolerant niece. There were 5 or 6 different ones.



You may have a poor palate but most people do not. I would be fully aware if there was something amiss with what I ordered. Assuming you are a vegan you have to remember that you now have most likely forgotten what a proper cappuccino or truffle taste like. When I started eating meat after being a vegetarian for 8 years I was horrified at the meat substitutes I enjoyed only a few weeks before.



You have failed to answer my question here though. If somebody snuck dairy as an ingredient in to your food in an underhanded way but you enjoyed it before being told what happened would you be ok with that?

So were the 5/6 ones desserts (freshly made cakes, mouses etc) or were they store bought confectionary/chocolate etc? Any chance of brand names if so? Just curious as there's a lot of muck out there, same way there's a lot of apples and mandarins that when parents introduce kids to fruit for the first time, if they don't choose good ones, then the kid will then think all apples and all mandarins taste like this.

I'm not saying there's something amiss with what you ordered or anything about palate (I believe I've a great palate thanks ). I'm saying that you've most likely had plenty of vegan products, that just happen to be vegan by design, oreos or chocolate or apple turnovers or the many cakes, desserts, confectionery etc that just happens to be vegan anyway.

I've tested a lot of foods on my own mini relations and I think once you get approval from a kid who otherwise has a terrible diet, then you know you're on the right track!

As I said, I think vegans in general are scrupulous and should never assume something is vegan, no matter how vegan it sounds, the same way someone with allergies shouldn't assume something is allergen free I guess. If somebody "snuck in" dairy after reading the ingredients or confirming with staff that what was being ordered didn't contain any animal products, then that's a dick thing to do and dangerous if the customer also happened to have allergies to the specific food, so that's certainly not ok.

You'll quite often find something referred to as vegan, only to find out it contains honey or some other animal derived product.

cormie

duploelabs wrote: »

Oh FFS, unless there are one of the aforementioned allergens involved in the dish then there is no responsibility on the cafe operator to inform. End of. And your talk of litigation outside display of the 14 allergens is just absolute b*llocks and you'd get laughed out of court

I'm only brought up litigation after brynne said:

"expecting a customer with a nut allergy to check the blackboard when ordering a common beverage that they could reasonably expect to be made with dairy milk, is just asking for litigation."

and if I understand you correctly, you're saying that as long as the ingredients are listed on a menu or blackboard, then the cafe have adhered to regulations and would not be at any risk of legal recourse.

I didn't cop it earlier, but what I now think you're also saying is that only the 14 allergens need to be listed. So both of the below would suffice:

Non vegan establishment menu:
Cappuccino: made with local organic milk (essential to be listed as it's one of the 14 allergens) and Kenyan roasted coffee beans (not essential)

Vegan establishment menu:
Cappuccino: with frothy oat milk and Kenyan roasted coffee beans (neither are essential as neither are in the 14 listed allergens).


So the vegan establishment could simply list it as "Cappuccino" and it would then be up to the patron to enquire further?

Graham

FYP

Vegan establishment menu:
Cappuccino: with frothy oat milk-substitute and Kenyan roasted coffee beans

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

cormie

dee_mc wrote: »

If you want to introduce customers to new things, offer them as clearly marked freebies when they order their regular. Make them a tiny almond milk cappuccino or whatever so they can taste it and decide for themselves if they want to order one in the future.
Any notion of secretly giving people a plant-based milk alternative as a base for their coffee drink is just silly, especially on the basis that you think they'll be ok with it just because they didn't specify they wanted a cow's milk cappuccino or whatever! People like to get what they pay for, but yeah, if you offer the opportunity to consciously try an alternative, and if they like it, then maybe they will turn away from the dairy 'dark side'.
I don't drink milk and I choose to drink my coffee black, so what you're suggesting wouldn't effect me, but to take my mum as an example, she's allergic to soya and oats and she always feels ill after drinking almond milk, so even though these aren't on the specified allergens list, if you were to quietly serve a coffee drink using one of these alternatives you'd have one (violently) sick customer on your hands.
Your idea reminds me a bit of when people conceal vegetables in young children's food - longterm it doesn't work, because you're not teaching them to try something new by trying to fool them into eating something they don't want, even if it is for the greater good.

That's not really the point, especially if the establishment is vegan anyway, I don't think they could be giving away freebies the whole time, or spending time making tiny samples for those who enter a vegan premises and order a cappuccino.

Again, it's not about secretly giving anyone anything, it's about a more efficient process of using one milk by default, that just happens to not be what that drink is conventionally made with, because the conventional ingredient doesn't fit in with the ethos of the establishment.

Your mother is a great example of where caution needs to be taken. It's about getting the balance of not losing customers who have an unfounded fear of anything unconventional, but then at the same time making sure each customer enjoys what's on offer as much as possible, so your mother could go for rice milk instead for example if the option was there.

cormie

Graham wrote: »

FYP

Vegan establishment menu:
Cappuccino: with frothy oat milk-substitute and Kenyan roasted coffee beans

Or just "Cappucino" if I understand duploelabs correctly?

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm aware of this, but it's not something I agree with, it's not something that's even across the board, with coconut milk, almond milk, peanut butter etc all being allowed to be labelled as such.

I wonder how they'll approach the milky way, pretty sure that wasn't squeezed through the teats of a mammal that was artificially inseminated against their will!

goat2

cormie wrote: »

Hey folks,
Just curious on this one. Say if somebody ordered, for example, a cappuccino and it was made with almond milk, is there any legal requirement for it to be made with milk meant for baby cows, based on it being ordered using a word typically associated with something that's traditionally made with certain ingredients?

Also, is there an onus on the staff to verbally (or otherwise) inform the customer of potential allergens, or is the onus on the customer to let the staff know of allergies?

Any feedback would be great

Yes, everything sold for consumption is supposed to have the list of allergic ingredients on it, this has to be written in bold on containers and packaging, and in menu in restaurants they also have to have their list of allergens on each choice of dish,

duploelabs

cormie wrote: »

Or just "Cappucino" if I understand duploelabs correctly?



I'm aware of this, but it's not something I agree with, it's not something that's even across the board, with coconut milk, almond milk, peanut butter etc all being allowed to be labelled as such.

I wonder how they'll approach the milky way, pretty sure that wasn't squeezed through the teats of a mammal that was artificially inseminated against their will!

A certain degree of cop-on has to be maintained, which you seem to be devoid of, or are you going to start giving out that buffalo wings are from buffaloes or that baby back ribs aren't in fact made from babies

duploelabs

goat2 wrote: »

Yes, everything sold for consumption is supposed to have the list of allergic ingredients on it, this has to be written in bold on containers and packaging, and in menu in restaurants they also have to have their list of allergens on each choice of dish,

OP has been told this repeatedly but is ignoring it

goat2

it is up to the customer to take care that they specify what allergies, If I have an allergy, I do not expect the café owner or shop to know this, it is up to me to read the list of allergens, or if I am not sure to discuss my allergy with the assistant, I have worked in the food industry, and when working there, I had to know all the allergens and this was a great help for me and customer, usually anyone that had an allergy and were scared of this enough, would point this out to me, I would not like to be the cause of them getting sick due to my lack of knowledge, but they would have to say to me first thst they are allergic, I have no way of knowing anyones allergies

Del2005

If I order a Cappucino and the restaurant doesn't make it with cow milk then I'd expect to be informed, if they don't then it's a sign of how little respect they have for their customers. Where do you draw the line all coffee is decaf because you don't agree with people getting a caffeine buzz.

The only time it might be OK is if the premises has multiple signs saying everything here is vegan , then I could go somewhere else.

witchgirl26

cormie wrote: »

You put chocolate in inverted commas too, don't forget that chocolate by definition is vegan. You've probably had more than a few desserts, chocolates, biscuits etc that were in fact vegan without even realising it.

Since when is chocolate vegan? Most chocolate I know is made with milk and therefore definitely not vegan. And I know this as I have a lactose intolerance so am completely aware of what has dairy in it and what doesn't.

cormie wrote: »

I think in general, vegans are scrupulous when it comes to what they are ordering and don't assume anything to be vegan, there's so many products derived from animals it's insane.

Yes vegans and vegetarians are scrupulous as they are not in the majority so need to double check that their specific, chosen lifestyle choice is catered for. If this was reversed and someone decided to sneak some meat onto a pizza for a vegi or vegan as "maybe they'd like it if they tried it" there'd be uproar and rightly so!

I completely disagree with the premise offered. I can't have milk. I use soy drink on my cereal in the morning but have hated any hot chocolate I made using it (don't take anything in tea anyway). My other half really hates the taste of it in hot drinks so would be disgusted if a cafe randomly decided he should try it and he only found out after paying when drinking it. And yes you can taste the difference. People are allowed to try or not try things if they want but it shouldn't be forced upon them by a cafe!

Scraggs

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the input. So just as long as the ingredients are listed on a blackboard/menu, the actual names used are irrelevant? So if someone had "cappuccino" as an item name on the blackboard and it was listed with ingredients of almonds, sesame seeds and cocoa (so not even any coffee), there'd be no issues there?

If I ordered this "cappuccino" well firstly hopefully I would have my epi pen with me and secondly I'd be pissed there's not even coffee ...why would you call it a cappuccino?

Deliberately misleading customers as to what the food ingredients are is such a bizarre business model especially when there is a trend towards transparency with ingredients and consumers are more knowledgable and concerned with what they are eating.

The example you gave earlier of an "oul lad" looking at desserts and not ordering because they were vegan is an example of poor staff training imo, rather than pushing the desserts as vegan being the main feature the staff member should have been prepared with spiels for each item eg: "this apple tart is made with fresh apples from Johnnys orchard", "this brownie is made with dark chocolate so is lovely and rich but not too heavy and is perfect with coffee"

cormie

duploelabs wrote: »

A certain degree of cop-on has to be maintained, which you seem to be devoid of, or are you going to start giving out that buffalo wings are from buffaloes or that baby back ribs aren't in fact made from babies

duploelabs wrote: »

OP has been told this repeatedly but is ignoring it

What's with the hostility? I've been respectful and thankful for your input. I understand that that the allergens have to be listed and understood that long ago. I was a bit confused as to whether all ingredients had to be listed, or just the allergens, but it seems now that only the allergens have to be listed if I'm understanding it correctly. Miscommunication and misunderstanding does not mean I'm ignoring what's being said.

cormie

Del2005 wrote: »

If I order a Cappucino and the restaurant doesn't make it with cow milk then I'd expect to be informed, if they don't then it's a sign of how little respect they have for their customers. Where do you draw the line all coffee is decaf because you don't agree with people getting a caffeine buzz.

The only time it might be OK is if the premises has multiple signs saying everything here is vegan , then I could go somewhere else.

How is it disrespect for their customers if they are a vegan establishment. I mean if they called a homemade bar they made a snickers, are you going to be upset becuase there's not powdered milk in it?

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Since when is chocolate vegan? Most chocolate I know is made with milk and therefore definitely not vegan. And I know this as I have a lactose intolerance so am completely aware of what has dairy in it and what doesn't.



Yes vegans and vegetarians are scrupulous as they are not in the majority so need to double check that their specific, chosen lifestyle choice is catered for. If this was reversed and someone decided to sneak some meat onto a pizza for a vegi or vegan as "maybe they'd like it if they tried it" there'd be uproar and rightly so!

I completely disagree with the premise offered. I can't have milk. I use soy drink on my cereal in the morning but have hated any hot chocolate I made using it (don't take anything in tea anyway). My other half really hates the taste of it in hot drinks so would be disgusted if a cafe randomly decided he should try it and he only found out after paying when drinking it. And yes you can taste the difference. People are allowed to try or not try things if they want but it shouldn't be forced upon them by a cafe!

Milk chocolate yes. A lot of dark chocolates won't have any milk, but just be careful as they may be made on the same production line as those using milk.

Again, this isn't about sneaking anything anywhere. The cafe isn't forcing anything upon anyone. The cafe has a product and the customer can choose whether to buy it or not.

Scraggs wrote: »

If I ordered this "cappuccino" well firstly hopefully I would have my epi pen with me and secondly I'd be pissed there's not even coffee ...why would you call it a cappuccino?

Deliberately misleading customers as to what the food ingredients are is such a bizarre business model especially when there is a trend towards transparency with ingredients and consumers are more knowledgable and concerned with what they are eating.

The example you gave earlier of an "oul lad" looking at desserts and not ordering because they were vegan is an example of poor staff training imo, rather than pushing the desserts as vegan being the main feature the staff member should have been prepared with spiels for each item eg: "this apple tart is made with fresh apples from Johnnys orchard", "this brownie is made with dark chocolate so is lovely and rich but not too heavy and is perfect with coffee"

I was just giving an example to see if naming something that has none of the traditional ingredients is still ok from a legal perspective. Again it's not about deliberately misleading customers. A burger is just a shape. It's not misleading to call something a burger just because it has no meat in it.

I completely agree with the "oul lad" scenario, I actually said it to the person after that I bet if she didn't mention the word vegan, he would have bought one

cruizer101

cormie wrote: »

I wonder how they'll approach the milky way, pretty sure that wasn't squeezed through the teats of a mammal that was artificially inseminated against their will!

Milky is an adjective and as such its meaning depends on the context. Something can have a milky taste (milky bar, various nut 'milks'), milky consistency (when airbrushing it is often advised to have a paint consistency like milk i.e. just slightly thicker than water), milky color (e.g. pasty irish persons skin tone). Where as milk has a proper distinct definition.

If a business is deciding to change ingredients from what is considered the standard and is what the vast majority of people would expect for a dish/drink then they should explicitly inform the customer and let them make and informed decision.

This should go both ways also, so if I make an onion bhaji, traditionally onions and batter, but decide it would be tasty with some chicken in it also that should be explicitly stated as it is a variation from the traditional and what people would reasonably expect. Would you like if you were surprise served an Onion Bhaji with chicken?