General Rugby Discussion II

Clegg

Bristol have announced the signing of Semi Radradra for next season. Huge acquisition for them.

Shefwedfan

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Wonder is it a one year contract and then off to a Top League side, considering nobody knows what's going to happen to the Sunwolves after this season.

It was mentioned in the NZ press the other day that some people are calling for NZ and Aus to drop SA out of Super Rugby. Concentrate on Japan etc....more or less chase the money


SA are too far away and Super Rugby is dying a death anyway.

Japan have pulled the Sunwolves out of Super Rugby but are now saying they might reconsider. If SA are dropped from Super Rugby they will probably end up in Pro14 but will want to have the ability to play in Heniken Cup.

Quin_Dub

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It was mentioned in the NZ press the other day that some people are calling for NZ and Aus to drop SA out of Super Rugby. Concentrate on Japan etc....more or less chase the money


SA are too far away and Super Rugby is dying a death anyway.

Japan have pulled the Sunwolves out of Super Rugby but are now saying they might reconsider. If SA are dropped from Super Rugby they will probably end up in Pro14 but will want to have the ability to play in Heniken Cup.

Interesting..

I know that SA are the majority provider of the TV money in the current Super Rugby deal.

Would Japan fill/improve that funding for having 1 team in a Super 10/12 competition?

If they were given another slot or two I don't know that they be able to fill them unless of course they just took all the SA players,which would be a fairly mercenary move to say the least.

How would the Pro14 accommodate extra teams? - If you assume that the 2 current SA teams would get swapped out for their Super equivalents there's still another 2 teams to be accommodated.

Would Scotland/Wales/Italy want them in thereby likely removing their teams from Europe??

MarinersBlues

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Japan have pulled the Sunwolves out of Super Rugby but are now saying they might reconsider. If SA are dropped from Super Rugby they will probably end up in Pro14 but will want to have the ability to play in Heniken Cup.

If they get into the Champions cup I would make it eight groups of four and have one extra knockout round.

The extra money they bring should help in that regard.

Shefwedfan

MarinersBlues wrote: »

If they get into the Champions cup I would make it eight groups of four and have one extra knockout round.

The extra money they bring should help in that regard.

When the SA team joined the Pro14 they done a couple of interviews with a guy in SA press on Offtheball.The SuperRugby teams would sit back and wait till it was confirmed if the SA team could play in HC...

If they where allowed then either the players would move over to Ceetahs/Kings(unlikely) or the Super Rugby teams would move across to the Pro14 slots



The distance between SA and Aus/NZ is the issue plus the time difference. The fact SA is in the same time bracket as NH teams means TV times suit.....


One of the articles here: https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/mehrtens-remains-adamant-drop-sa-from-super-rugby-20191125?fbclid=IwAR1Ef9aB-auMGAPP4S-EecwvLZX4yhFow0KdFbQFAmyJob6unXbPRp0CDJQ

Interested Observer

MarinersBlues wrote: »

If they get into the Champions cup I would make it eight groups of four and have one extra knockout round.

I don't think there's any chance of that happening, schedules are pretty packed as it is.

Yeah_Right

I remember a friend of mine talking about this in NZ years ago. He said rugby would eventually move from NH and SH based competitions to ones based on time zones. Especially at club level. Super Rugby should go back to being Super 12. 5 kiwi teams, 4 Aussie, 1 PI, 2 Japanese. Alternatively, scrap the PI based side and go with another Asian (HK or Singapore maybe). Or maybe a Californian team.

sydthebeat

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I remember a friend of mine talking about this in NZ years ago. He said rugby would eventually move from NH and SH based competitions to ones based on time zones. Especially at club level. Super Rugby should go back to being Super 12. 5 kiwi teams, 4 Aussie, 1 PI, 2 Japanese. Alternatively, scrap the PI based side and go with another Asian (HK or Singapore maybe). Or maybe a Californian team.

any scope for another NZ based team?

is it possible to split the crusaders region into 2 and have 3 south island based teams and 3 north island??

leave canterbury, mid and south together .......and join tasman, buller and west coast into another franchise??

just spit ballin

PMC83

sydthebeat wrote: »

any scope for another NZ based team?

is it possible to split the crusaders region into 2 and have 3 south island based teams and 3 north island??

leave canterbury, mid and south together .......and join tasman, buller and west coast into another franchise??

just spit ballin

More likely bring back Western Force? Such a shame they left, an tbh that Rapid Rugby thing they are involved in just looks a little silly. Even though it was created to sustain them.

sydthebeat

PMC83 wrote: »

More likely bring back Western Force? Such a shame they left, an tbh that Rapid Rugby thing they are involved in just looks a little silly. Even though it was created to sustain them.

more chance of NZRU being able to sustain a 6th region than ARU sustaining a 5th franchise... sugar daddy or not. they were cut for financial regions and if anything ARUs finances have gotten worse in the meantime, not better.

Perhaps some kind of restructuring might work, but TV income from australia is pitiful.

and in all this..... what about the hags ??

PMC83

sydthebeat wrote: »

and in all this..... what about the hags ??

Thats a good question, was great seeing them get to the final last year, a shame the final itself wasn't a better match.

Slick jersey as well!

Yeah_Right

sydthebeat wrote: »

any scope for another NZ based team?

is it possible to split the crusaders region into 2 and have 3 south island based teams and 3 north island??

leave canterbury, mid and south together .......and join tasman, buller and west coast into another franchise??

just spit ballin

I don't think there is room for a 6th NZ team. There just isn't the population especially in the South Island. More people live in the Auckland region than in the whole of the SI. And over half the population live in the northern third of the country, so the Blues and Chiefs regions.

I was sorry to sorry to see the Western Force go as I think a successful team based in Perth could really help rugby get established in WA. Big Saffa and kiwi expat communities there.

I don't know what to do with the Hags. Would their timezone suit SA/Europe or the Pacific?

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I remember a friend of mine talking about this in NZ years ago. He said rugby would eventually move from NH and SH based competitions to ones based on time zones. Especially at club level. Super Rugby should go back to being Super 12. 5 kiwi teams, 4 Aussie, 1 PI, 2 Japanese. Alternatively, scrap the PI based side and go with another Asian (HK or Singapore maybe). Or maybe a Californian team.

California for time zone based? What about Argentina and jaguar's?
Problem for New Zealand and Australia is without south Africa income goes down and that isnt good for game if these countries income goes down considerably from what it is now.

Shefwedfan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

California for time zone based? What about Argentina and jaguar's?
Problem for New Zealand and Australia is without south Africa income goes down and that isnt good for game if these countries income goes down considerably from what it is now.

Super Rugby is dying a slow slow death. The money is getting drained out of all the leagues and the TV rights money is going the same way.....


SA is not the answer to it and NZ/Aus know it. They are losing money as well. The only way to get money back into it is via Asia markets. Look at soccer and thats how Premiership started to make big money.



During WC it was mentioned about the Japanese loved NZ....on the back of the WC I would expect NZ are hoping they can cash in on the Asia market. They will have no problem dumping SA if they see cash

The Lost Sheep

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Super Rugby is dying a slow slow death. The money is getting drained out of all the leagues and the TV rights money is going the same way.....

SA is not the answer to it and NZ/Aus know it. They are losing money as well. The only way to get money back into it is via Asia markets. Look at soccer and thats how Premiership started to make big money.

During WC it was mentioned about the Japanese loved NZ....on the back of the WC I would expect NZ are hoping they can cash in on the Asia market. They will have no problem dumping SA if they see cash

south Africa isnt a solution but dropping them completely isnt at all.

Asian markets can help but is only going to go a small way.

You cant compare soccer to this. Asians played soccer, everyone did lot to progress the game. Many of the unions dont do that in rugby.
The new zealanders wont dump south Africa because of the competitive rugby side of things. Even with improvements from Japan recently New Zealand will want south African opposition on very regular basis.

No doubt I'm just being a bit alarmist but from a climate point of view should we really be considering expanding the Pro14 / Heineken cup to include teams that will create tens of thousand more air miles.

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

No doubt I'm just being a bit alarmist but from a climate point of view should we really be considering expanding the Pro14 / Heineken cup to include teams that will create tens of thousand more air miles.

the distance from south africa to europe is slightly less than it is to new zealand.

logistically it could end up being very similar air miles that super rugby teams currently have to travel.

MarinersBlues

Interested Observer wrote: »

I don't think there's any chance of that happening, schedules are pretty packed as it is.

It is only one extra round of fixtures.
No too much of an issue for Pro14 and Aviva Prem.
Top 14 can get rid of the silly quater finals or reduce the league size.

I suppose it depends on what SA bring with them.

The 5 group format really pisses me off

Shefwedfan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

south Africa isnt a solution but dropping them completely isnt at all.

Asian markets can help but is only going to go a small way.

You cant compare soccer to this. Asians played soccer, everyone did lot to progress the game. Many of the unions dont do that in rugby.
The new zealanders wont dump south Africa because of the competitive rugby side of things. Even with improvements from Japan recently New Zealand will want south African opposition on very regular basis.

I know you can't compare soccer but that is what most of the rugby clubs are doing. Look at the English Premiership Rugby and they are all making these huge losses in the hope that one day it will turn into another Premiershipsoccer league


South Africa would be better to concentrate on getting into Heineken Cup...NZ and Aus will drop them if they can....the World League was brought up so NZ and AUs could start making some money. That has been canned so they are looking at alternative.



Bringing one Japanese club into Super Rugby is not working, they need 2-3 to get any sort of interest. Having so many clubs then in Super Rugby has already shown it is a disaster so they will need to drop someone. SA already have links into Europe with the pro14. Dropping them and putting in a number of Asian teams might work


Doing nothing will not, Aus will go bankrupt soon....NZ already have huge issues with player drain and loads of articles about how poor the U20 are.....so they need money to hold onto players......

The Lost Sheep

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I know you can't compare soccer but that is what most of the rugby clubs are doing. Look at the English Premiership Rugby and they are all making these huge losses in the hope that one day it will turn into another Premiershipsoccer league

South Africa would be better to concentrate on getting into Heineken Cup...NZ and Aus will drop them if they can....the World League was brought up so NZ and AUs could start making some money. That has been canned so they are looking at alternative.

Bringing one Japanese club into Super Rugby is not working, they need 2-3 to get any sort of interest. Having so many clubs then in Super Rugby has already shown it is a disaster so they will need to drop someone. SA already have links into Europe with the pro14. Dropping them and putting in a number of Asian teams might work

Doing nothing will not, Aus will go bankrupt soon....NZ already have huge issues with player drain and loads of articles about how poor the U20 are.....so they need money to hold onto players......

south Africa moving lock stock and barrel to northern hemisphere will not help Australia and New Zealand. Yes super rugby and rugby in general needs to do more to expand into Asia but not by disregarding south Africa at the same time.
New Zealand and Australia wont drop south Africa any time soon because of how vital south Africa are to finances and yes there is potential for much increased income from Asia they need south Africa for higher standard of rugby they bring.

sydthebeat

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

New Zealand and Australia wont drop south Africa any time soon because of how vital south Africa are to finances .....

you could be looking at this the wrong way....

you have to ask yourself would south africa drop NZ and Aus to move to the NH... and the projections are that yes, they would. It may end up that NZ and Australia will have no option but to look at the asian market for survival.

they have already insisted on very strict financial conditions of japanese involvement in super rugby ... enough for JRU to pull the sunwolves rather than meet the financial constraints.

SA are also seeing their international players eventually end up in the NH, so a tighter connection with them makes sense from a test logistic level.

The Lost Sheep

sydthebeat wrote: »

you could be looking at this the wrong way....

you have to ask yourself would south africa drop NZ and Aus to move to the NH... and the projections are that yes, they would. It may end up that NZ and Australia will have no option but to look at the asian market for survival.

they have already insisted on very strict financial conditions of japanese involvement in super rugby ... enough for JRU to pull the sunwolves rather than meet the financial constraints.

SA are also seeing their international players eventually end up in the NH, so a tighter connection with them makes sense from a test logistic level.

south Africans might but we cant allow that happen as it completely wrecks rugby in New Zealand and Australia if south Africans do leave as you are assuming so much about rugby in Asia.
The leagues in Europe dont need expansion. 14 in pro rugby already and 18 is too much. You then have to look at south Africa in 6 nations if all their provincial sides are in Europe and that cant happen either.

Yeah_Right

Maybe NZ should go back to the good old days when the NPC was the greatest "club" competition in the world. We were nice and included the Aussies and the Saffas and then the Argies and the Japs. Everything has just gotten too messy. I think its time to cut these other unions loose and just stick with kiwi sides. NZ eligible players only except for a few PIs, Japs and Yanks. Then just base some of the sides in Japan, Australia and the US to get their TV money.

Simple

sydthebeat

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

south Africans might but we cant allow that happen as it completely wrecks rugby in New Zealand and Australia if south Africans do leave as you are assuming so much about rugby in Asia.
The leagues in Europe dont need expansion. 14 in pro rugby already and 18 is too much. You then have to look at south Africa in 6 nations if all their provincial sides are in Europe and that cant happen either.

i dont like the absolutes of "we cant allow" and "that cant happen"...

the status quo is heading towards a cliff edge... doing nothing is the worst option.

Super rugby is broken.
its moving more and more towards a NZ league with the odd saffer team doing good.
typiclally 4 of the 5 NZ sides make the play offs, and typically at least 3 of those are the highest point getters over the season.

in the last 8 years theres only been one winner who wasn't kiwi, the tahs beating crusaders by one point in 2014.

The Rugby Championship is broken
in the last 10 years NZ have won 7 rugby championships.
the ones they lose are in the RWC years where you could argue they are concentrating on something else.

Australian Rugby is broken
Playing numbers dropping off, the standard of super rugby sides is pretty poor.
in 2017 the brumbies were the top australian side .. finishing with 34 points.
that would have put them 10th in the overall standings, even lower than the last placed NZ team (blues with 37 points).. and remember they would have played the aussies sides more often.
ARUs finances and game is in serious trouble, they have no direction out of their crises. australian rugby is already "wrecked"

Doing nothing is not an option.

Shefwedfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Maybe NZ should go back to the good old days when the NPC was the greatest "club" competition in the world. We were nice and included the Aussies and the Saffas and then the Argies and the Japs. Everything has just gotten too messy. I think its time to cut these other unions loose and just stick with kiwi sides. NZ eligible players only except for a few PIs, Japs and Yanks. Then just base some of the sides in Japan, Australia and the US to get their TV money.

Simple

NZ can go back to that, just all of their best player will be swanning around a European pitch near you

James Lowe said it in his interview recently that loads of guys are now looking at Europe, rock up here for a few season, make big money and then head home.



NZ need TV money, no harm to you but very few will have any interest outside of NZ in watching two NZ teams play each other.

Yeah_Right

Shefwedfan wrote: »

NZ can go back to that, just all of their best player will be swanning around a European pitch near you

James Lowe said it in his interview recently that loads of guys are now looking at Europe, rock up here for a few season, make big money and then head home.



NZ need TV money, no harm to you but very few will have any interest outside of NZ in watching two NZ teams play each other.

Ok. Simple solution. NZ sets up a club team in the NH. Make it 2 clibs. One in the UK and one in France. All NZ players that want to go to the NH can play for them. That way NZRU get good TV money and you guys get to watch some quality rugby players. Win, win

Shefwedfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Ok. Simple solution. NZ sets up a club team in the NH. Make it 2 clibs. One in the UK and one in France. All NZ players that want to go to the NH can play for them. That way NZRU get good TV money and you guys get to watch some quality rugby players. Win, win

What you do about the French players that have to be part of the team?

I would expect England will bring in similar requirements soon......


At the moment Super Rugby is fairly poor.....its just two teams who can't defend. Yeah its fun to watch at the start but gets fairly boring watching after a while. I used to get up to watch, now I couldnt be bothered. I know a number of peopel are the same....


Yes if the 2 NZ teams are on I might stick on.....

Yeah_Right

I have to say that I'm pretty blasé about Super Rugby these days. And no its not because the Blues are ****. I swear its not... Shut up Syd!! :mad:
I record all the matches. I tend to only watch the matches involving NZ teams and then flick through the others. If they are good matches I might watch the whole thing. The kiwi derbies tend to be only ones that are any good.

I think it is a bit of a case of familiarity breeding contempt. I remember when Super Rugby started in the late 90s. There was actually a buzz about playing the Aussie and South African sides. Need to find a way to get that back. I have no idea how.

The Lost Sheep

sydthebeat wrote: »

i dont like the absolutes of "we cant allow" and "that cant happen"...

the status quo is heading towards a cliff edge... doing nothing is the worst option.

Super rugby is broken.
its moving more and more towards a NZ league with the odd saffer team doing good.
typiclally 4 of the 5 NZ sides make the play offs, and typically at least 3 of those are the highest point getters over the season.

in the last 8 years theres only been one winner who wasn't kiwi, the tahs beating crusaders by one point in 2014.

The Rugby Championship is broken
in the last 10 years NZ have won 7 rugby championships.
the ones they lose are in the RWC years where you could argue they are concentrating on something else.

Australian Rugby is broken
Playing numbers dropping off, the standard of super rugby sides is pretty poor.
in 2017 the brumbies were the top australian side .. finishing with 34 points.
that would have put them 10th in the overall standings, even lower than the last placed NZ team (blues with 37 points).. and remember they would have played the aussies sides more often.
ARUs finances and game is in serious trouble, they have no direction out of their crises. australian rugby is already "wrecked"

Doing nothing is not an option.

Japan national side has done well in recent years but how much of just TV income from Asian market will be enough for Australia and New Zealand rugby?
Australian rugby is already in big trouble and all south Africans moving to play in Europe and just having some Asian sides play will not work

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I have to say that I'm pretty blasé about Super Rugby these days. And no its not because the Blues are ****. I swear its not... Shut up Syd!! :mad:
I record all the matches. I tend to only watch the matches involving NZ teams and then flick through the others. If they are good matches I might watch the whole thing. The kiwi derbies tend to be only ones that are any good.

I think it is a bit of a case of familiarity breeding contempt. I remember when Super Rugby started in the late 90s. There was actually a buzz about playing the Aussie and South African sides. Need to find a way to get that back. I have no idea how.

do more to get islanders sides and or players involved? Look to USA? Team based in Hawaii. Maybe another on west coast?

Former Former

It's striking how many of the ills of Super Rugby are shared by the Pro14.