5000 Euro electricity bill

mary17xx

Hi all, looking for some help as I'm desperate. I have paid all of my electricity bills, but never able to get a reading as the meter is in the house above me that my landlord doesn't Alli me access to. I have been paying estimated bills therefore, and didn't realise it would be this big an issue as I'm from another country and this is not how we do things. I had told my landlord there needed to be a meter reading done and he always said he'd sort it out and never did. He is quite negligent, but I always overlooked things is all windows being painted shut, the power cutting all the time and being unable to fix it as the unit is upstairs in the house we have no access to, dodgy plugs etc, and I always overlooked these things as the place is quite cheap(not the case now as I now have a 5000 bill). Just wondering what to do?

Bill details:
Correction of previous reading 02/04/2014 - 04/07/2017 : 3941.50 euros
Current reading: 36031 c
Previous reading: 35608 e
Unit usage: 423
Unit price: 0.1513

Then charges for this period adds up to over 4800 euros.

server down

How long have you been getting estimated bills? How long were you there?

Cee-Jay-Cee

mary17xx wrote: »

Hi all, looking for some help as I'm desperate. I have paid all of my electricity bills, but never able to get a reading as the meter is in the house above me that my landlord doesn't Alli me access to. I have been paying estimated bills therefore, and didn't realise it would be this big an issue as I'm from another country and this is not how we do things. I had told my landlord there needed to be a meter reading done and he always said he'd sort it out and never did. He is quite negligent, but I always overlooked things is all windows being painted shut, the power cutting all the time and being unable to fix it as the unit is upstairs in the house we have no access to, dodgy plugs etc, and I always overlooked these things as the place is quite cheap(not the case now as I now have a 5000 bill). Just wondering what to do?

Move House. Tell your landlord it’s his problem as he made no option to rectify the problem despite being asked numerous times.

flaneur

How long are you there ?
Is a €5000 bill even possible based on your usage?

Sounds to me like you're paying a lot more than just your electricity bill, particularly if you have absolutely no idea where the circuits are going and have no access to the meter.

That's €416 per month if it were 12 months and whatever else you were paying for the estimated bills too.

Is the bill in your name?

I would actually blame ESB Networks for this too. The supply should never have been connected if there was no access to the meter and the fuse board. It's being caused by very poor regulation and no inspection.

Tenigate

Find out if there were ever any actual readings for your bill, either immediately before you moved in or since you moved in.
If not, the usage may relate to a previous tenant.
Otherwise, you are responsible for your own bill. Perhaps electric heaters caused the high use. whether you're from another country or not doesn't come in to it- you'd be the very one crying discrimination if the landlord refused you based on your nationality.
Side note but i know a landlord whose asian tenants received a gas bill of over eur1000 after leaving the central heating on 24/7. Apoarently in malaysia it's normal to wear shorts and flipflops around the house.

njs030

flaneur wrote: »

How long are you there ?
Is a €5000 bill even possible based on your usage?

Sounds to me like you're paying a lot more than just your electricity bill, particularly if you have absolutely no idea where the circuits are going and have no access to the meter.

That's €416 per month and whatever else you were paying for the estimated bills too.

Is the bill in your name?

I would actually blame ESB Networks for this too. The supply should never have been connected if there was no access to the meter and the fuse board.

How did you work that out? Op didn't say how long they were there?

flaneur

@Tenigate That is a totally unhelpful and frankly xenophobic reply!

The OP is being presented with a ludicrous situation in Ireland where they are being expected to pay an electricity bill without any access to the meter and without any access to even their own fuse board by the sounds of it.

They're saying that they're new to the country because they have no idea whether this is the norm or not in Ireland. Clearly it is not the norm and the setup is totally substandard, but it does not mean that they cannot express the fact that they're surprised by it / confused by it because they're from another country.

Maybe they didn't realise that such an unregulated rental market was even possible in the EU in 2017?

flaneur

notjustsweet wrote: »

How did you work that out? Op didn't say how long they were there?

How did I work what out?
I asked a question.

From what the OP has said they have neither access to the circuit board or the meter, which means they have no idea what they're paying for.
It's a completely ridiculous situation and probably not remotely complaint with the wiring regulations either as the fuse board MUST be accessible for safety reasons.

njs030

flaneur wrote: »

How did I work what out?
I asked a question.

You said it was €416 a month?

flaneur

notjustsweet wrote: »

You said it was €416 a month?

If it was a 12 month period, which I did omit but corrected in an edit.

two wheels good

Tenigate wrote: »

Find out if there were ever any actual readings for your bill, either immediately before you moved in or since you moved in.
If not, the usage may relate to a previous tenant.
Otherwise, you are responsible for your own bill. Perhaps electric heaters caused the high use. whether you're from another country or not doesn't come in to it- you'd be the very one crying discrimination if the landlord refused you based on your nationality.
Side note but i know a landlord whose asian tenants received a gas bill of over eur1000 after leaving the central heating on 24/7. Apoarently in malaysia it's normal to wear shorts and flipflops around the house.

Why should she be immediately responsible for a bill she can't verify? Maybe her meter is being tapped. It's not unknown.
The mention of nationality was obviously to explain lack of familiarity with local procedures. So less of the knee-jerk mention of discrimination please.

flaneur

OP:

1. Are you a tenant or a licensee? i.e. do you have the tenancy agreement in writing and in your own name?
Lack of access to the meter and fuse board should be discussed with the RTB https://www.rtb.ie/
For safety reasons, you need access to the circuit board and the landlord needs to rectify this ASAP. It's not an acceptable situation.

If you are a licensee i.e. just renting a room in a house and have no formal rental agreement, then you've very few rights outside of normal contract law.

2. Is the bill in your name or is it coming from the landlord to you ?

3. If the bill *is* actually owed, you should explain the situation to the power company - i.e. that you have no physical access to the meter and have made every effort to establish correct readings. They will probably allow you to do some kind of payment plan to pay it off over time, unless they're completely unreasonable.

4. If they do behave unreasonably, make a formal complaint to the CER (Commission for Regulation of Utilities) https://www.cru.ie/home/complaint-form/

I would suggest that you stop your direct debit too to avoid your bank account being cleared. Contact your bank about this.

....

For future reference:

NEVER, EVER move into a house in Ireland without physically inspecting all of the meters and taking readings (and I would usually take a photograph too).

I would absolutely never accept a landlord's or previous resident's word that this has been done.

You should have at the very least any readings for electricity and gas. Water's less relevant as the fee is capped anyway.

The normal process is:

1) Take reading.
2) Select an energy supplier and give them these readings and the date they were taken.
3) Anything from that point is your responsibility and not the previous resident.
4) When you move out, take a final reading and submit that to the gas/electric company.

If you don't do that there's all sorts of potential chaos.

SterlingArcher

mary17xx wrote: »

I have been paying estimated bills...

the unit is upstairs in the house we have no access to,

How much were these estimated bills.

Does someone live in the upstairs place.

flaneur

Also, if you suspect that you're paying for someone else's power, you should contact ESB Networks https://www.esb.ie/contact


From a mobile call 021 238 6555 (the 1850 number will cost a lot more)

This is the company that is responsible for the wires and the metering and supply to your home. They are separate from your energy supplier who actually sells you electricity.

They should be able to advise you on how to get verification that the meter is only connected to your property.

mary17xx

server down wrote: »

How long have you been getting estimated bills? How long were you there?

I added bill details, thanks

mary17xx

SterlingArcher wrote: »

How much were these estimated bills.

Does someone live in the upstairs place.

I added more details of the bill, can supply more if needed. No one lives upstairs the landlord does leave a light on constantly (for "security") but can't see that making a huge difference?

mary17xx

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Move House. Tell your landlord it’s his problem as he made no option to rectify the problem despite being asked numerous times.

I'd love to but the bill is still in my name.

Tenigate

mary17xx wrote: »

I added bill details, thanks

423 units
Unit price: 0.1513
That's €63.45.. plus vat and standing charges.. even with the correction you claim appears on the bill it still doesn't add up to the amount you specified. Your maths are wrong.
It's clearly not just an adjustment relating to estimate v actual.
You're going to have to call the company for clarification. Cancel your DD in the meantime.

testicles

This post has been deleted.

server down

Tenigate wrote: »

423 units
Unit price: 0.1513
That's €63.45.. plus vat and standing charges. How exactly are you coming up with the ridiculous amount?

She’s showing what they are showing. The ESB bills are a mess, a joke, when you move from estimated to actual. They are not showing in that bill the previous estimated reading - the one that was in the last bill, but their best guess at what they now think her reading would have been last month.

We would need to see the old bill.

Op the numbers still don’t add up. Do you have another reading - nighttime maybe?

mary17xx

flaneur wrote: »

OP:

1. Are you a tenant or a licensee? i.e. do you have the tenancy agreement in writing and in your own name?
Lack of access to the meter and fuse board should be discussed with the RTB https://www.rtb.ie/
For safety reasons, you need access to the circuit board and the landlord needs to rectify this ASAP. It's not an acceptable situation.

If you are a licensee i.e. just renting a room in a house and have no formal rental agreement, then you've very few rights outside of normal contract law.

2. Is the bill in your name or is it coming from the landlord to you ?

3. If the bill *is* actually owed, you should explain the situation to the power company - i.e. that you have no physical access to the meter and have made every effort to establish correct readings. They will probably allow you to do some kind of payment plan to pay it off over time, unless they're completely unreasonable.

4. If they do behave unreasonably, make a formal complaint to the CER (Commission for Regulation of Utilities) https://www.cru.ie/home/complaint-form/

I would suggest that you stop your direct debit too to avoid your bank account being cleared. Contact your bank about this.

....

For future reference:

NEVER, EVER move into a house in Ireland without physically inspecting all of the meters and taking readings (and I would usually take a photograph too).

I would absolutely never accept a landlord's or previous resident's word that this has been done.

You should have at the very least any readings for electricity and gas. Water's less relevant as the fee is capped anyway.

The normal process is:

1) Take reading.
2) Select an energy supplier and give them these readings and the date they were taken.
3) Anything from that point is your responsibility and not the previous resident.
4) When you move out, take a final reading and submit that to the gas/electric company.

If you don't do that there's all sorts of potential chaos.

Thank you, and yes I do have a tenancy agreement.

mary17xx

Tenigate wrote: »

423 units
Unit price: 0.1513
That's €63.45.. plus vat and standing charges.. even with the correction you claim appears on the bill it still doesn't add up to the amount you specified. Your maths are wrong.
It's clearly not just an adjustment relating to estimate v actual.
You're going to have to call the company for clarification. Cancel your DD in the meantime.

They just said over 3900 brought forward from the new reading.

server down

mary17xx wrote: »

They just said over 3900 brought forward from the new reading.

They are estimating 800 on top of that but that’s not explained by the unit reading.

mary17xx

server down wrote: »

She’s showing what they are showing. The ESB bills are a mess, a joke, when you move from estimated to actual. They are not showing in that bill the previous estimated reading - the one that was in the last bill, but their best guess at what they now think her reading would have been last month.

We would need to see the old bill.

Op the numbers still don’t add up. Do you have another reading - nighttime maybe?

I don't have another reading unfortunately. My previous bills are all just showing around 100 euros though. I'll attach screen shots of the bill charges.

server down

Also

http://touch.boards.ie/forum/1349

server down

mary17xx wrote: »

I don't have another reading unfortunately. My previous bills are all just showing around 100 euros though. I'll attach screen shots of the bill charges.

That’s insane.

flaneur

mary17xx wrote: »

Thank you, and yes I do have a tenancy agreement.

If you’ve a tenancy ageeement you need to be talking to the landlord about why the circuit board and meter are inaccessible.

If they’re unwilling to rectify that, you’ll need to get the RTB to help. It’s a breech of Irish wiring regulations for a start and probably of the minimum specifications for rental units.

For safety reasons (being able to isolate the whole supply or a circuit) you need access.

server down

Op. It’s claiming you read the meter. Obviously you couldn’t. Weirder and weirder.

flaneur

It sounds like the landlord spoted a meter reader card and submitted a reading. Those would be from ESB Networks, not the energy supply companies.

There would have been a card with the MPRN on it. All they’d have to do is ring or text a number with the current reading.

Could you verify that the address on your bill is the exact address for your home and not the landlord’s address or another property?

Like if you’re 1A Homeville and the landlord is 1 Homeville, you’ve a bit of an issue.

This sounds like some kind of conversion to apartments or something?

In my view this is partially the ESB’s fault. They should not allow a meter to go physically unread for that length of time. If they can’t get access they should be ringing people and knocking on doors.

One or two missed readings is one thing, but years is incredibly sloppy and will inevitably cause issues like this.

uck51js9zml2yt

It says it's a customer reading. Have you been able to verify it?

George Sunsnow

Guys I run a farm with a milking machine,auto scrapers,compressors and all sorts going aswell as what’s in my home and I’d be hard set to run up that kind of a bill
It’s clearly,undoubtedly an error

ED E

flaneur wrote: »

It sounds like the landlord spoted a meter reader card and submitted a reading. Those would be from ESB Networks, not the energy supply companies.

There would have been a card with the MPRN on it. All they’d have to do is ring or text a number with the current reading.

Could you verify that the address on your bill is the exact address for your home and not the landlord’s address or another property?

Like if you’re 1A Homeville and the landlord is 1 Homeville, you’ve a bit of an issue.

This sounds like some kind of conversion to apartments or something?

In my view this is partially the ESB’s fault. They should not allow a meter to go physically unread for that length of time. If they can’t get access they should be ringing people and knocking on doors.

One or two missed readings is one thing, but years is incredibly sloppy and will inevitably cause issues like this.

We get meter readers around to do an ESB reading more regularly than annually. They have probably knocked several times unanswered.

flaneur

Yeah but they should raise a major fuss if you don’t grant access twice.

The OP should have received a letter demanding access back in 2015 and explaining that they called on X and Y dates and were unable to view the meter and requesting that the OP contact them to resolve.

That would have set the ball in motion to get this resolved before it grew to this scale of a problem.

Failure to do that has created this and similar messes.

server down

the total cost pre standing charges at 3941.5 divided by the cost per unit of .1513 indicates that the readings were out by about 26051 units assuming no price changes


You can ask for the previous bills to be resent. I can’t imagine that this is a valid underestimation.

DrumSteve

That's mental,

Sounds like someone read the wrong meter,

Coles

Was the initial meter reading recorded on the lease when you moved into your home? When your name was put on the account this was probably done.

Do you use a lot of electricity? Do you use electric heating constantly? Is the water heater constantly on? If you do then it is possible that the bill is genuine.

If the meter is in a part of the house that you have no access to then it is possible that someone is stealing electricity. If the landlord has any electrical items plugged in that he has not informed you of then he is liable for it. For example a 1kw heater would add €4000 to your bill over three years. Don't alert your landlord to the problem yet until you figure out how to secure the evidence if this has been the case.

Very best of luck resolving this issue. It is very possible that it's mistake in the meter reading.

flaneur

The water heating being constantly on only matters if you've got the classic 'immersion' which is basically a copper cylinder with absolutely useless insulation or no insulation at all. So, basically it's a 3kW electric radiator.

If you've a proper fully insulated (to near thermos flask levels) water heater (as per the norm in most countries), you just leave the water heater on all the time and it only heats the water you used. Your hot press would be cold.

Kalimah

I'm in a four bedroom detached house with 5 people in it and I can tell you we don't stint on power. Our bills come to about 1200 a year. Something radically wrong there OP.

wordofwarning

flaneur wrote: »

Yeah but they should raise a major fuss if you don’t grant access twice.

The OP should have received a letter demanding access back in 2015 and explaining that they called on X and Y dates and were unable to view the meter and requesting that the OP contact them to resolve.

That would have set the ball in motion to get this resolved before it grew to this scale of a problem.

Failure to do that has created this and similar messes.

So you think private companies need to hold the hands of grown adults to ensure they submit a meter reading? Do you think there should be zero personal responsibility?

The ESB networks reads meters several times per year. They should not have to be calling and writing to John Smith, who is 45 years old to ask when suits him for a man from ESB networks to call out to hold us hand to read the meter that could easily be in his hall...

People failing to own their **** creates messes. Private companies should not have help adults do basic things like read a meter

server down

wordofwarning wrote: »

So you think private companies need to hold the hands of grown adults to ensure they submit a meter reading? Do you think there should be zero personal responsibility?

The ESB networks reads meters several times per year. They should not have to be calling and writing to John Smith, who is 45 years old to ask when suits him for a man from ESB networks to call out to hold us hand to read the meter that could easily be in his hall...

People failing to own their **** creates messes. Private companies should not have help adults do basic things like read a meter

Christ there is always one plonker. In this case she can’t get at the meter. Take your political rant elsewhere.

flaneur

1. ESB Networks is a semi-state / public body, not a private company.
2. I think power companies make a huge profit and could spend a tiny bit of effort ensuring they have accurate billing information.
3. It’s not difficult to print a warning notice clearly on the bill if you have an estimated reading or even send a warning text message.
4. Multiple estimated readings should generate a flag where it’s followed up.
5. It is not in any company’s interests to allow situations like this to build as it will often result in difficulties collecting an enormous bill, having to extend credit or even having to write the bill off.
6. It would identify safety issues like lack of access to a meter / board as the OP is having.

It’s not unreasonable to expect these things to happen.
Particularly when many people (probably most) pay energy bills by direct debit and many don’t even get paper bills. Unless they’re large amounts they probably don’t read them. You just see Electric Ireland, Airtriciy, Energia etc and an amount on your back statement. If that’s out of line with normal you might log in and check the bill on their site.
These are highly profitable companies operating a public utility in a regulated market. They shouldn’t just be so lazy as to just let metering slide without pushing to get action to get a reading. It’s very sloppy practice at best.

The idea that a consumer must constantly check up on the accounting practices of a huge industry and take a hit when they fail to gather data is absolutely contrary to the ideas of consumer protection and consumer rights.

The assumption has to be that you're dealing with a potentially vulnerable party who doesn't have the same level of resources as the companies involved.

To present someone with a €5000 bill is crazy stuff. They need to at the very least be accommodating about sprteading that payment to balance it out.

server down

You’d at least think that a customer reading that caused a huge spike in the next bill would be investigated.

server down

Why in 2017 do meters have to be read anyway? Why is it 1950’s technology.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

server down wrote: »

Why in 2017 do meters have to be read anyway? Why is it 1950’s technology.

Hence the introduction of smart metres.

server down

That’s still 1992 technology. I don’t need a dirty great bandwidth meter on the wall of my kitchen. Or hidden in a hard to access locker. Give me an app.

JohnC.

server down wrote: »

That’s still 1992 technology. I don’t need a dirty great bandwidth meter on the wall of my kitchen. Or hidden in a hard to access locker. Give me an app.

I'd rather they sort out the notoriously abysmal security on IoT devices before going widespread with that.

flaneur

Even using 1970s billing systems you could flag a problem like not allowing more than two estimated bills without automatically issuing a letter to the customer.
This is all 100% achievable with the technology they’ve had for many decades.

ESB Networks did several smart meter trials and seemed to find issues with most of them. That’s probably why they’re waiting for a more mature, bug free solution before they go lashing money into it.

You can also do it without exposing it to the public internet. IoT smart meters with an ability so shut off supply would be just begging to be hacked!

James 007

Kalimah wrote: »

I'm in a four bedroom detached house with 5 people in it and I can tell you we don't stint on power. Our bills come to about 1200 a year. Something radically wrong there OP.

The OP has been in the place for 3 years. I am not questioning the OP here, but I always find with non irish people that they tend to go with the flow, use gas/elec to their hearts content and then only ask questions when the correct reading bill comes in the door. Only you OP can answer this question. You say you were in cheap accommodation, how was it heated, was it electrically heated. Assume electric cooker too. How much pressure did you put on the owner to ensure the correct reading was taken. Why didnt you take the reading and submit it yourself. Ive done this before and the bill was not even in my name. The cost is €111/month addtional, assuming 3 years, total amount €3,900. What were your previous bills like, do you have records. Just some points but only you OP will know whether you were negligent with regards usage or did you control you level of usage. If its the latter then you have every right to question it.

eurasian

When you started renting you should have taken meter readings for bos electricity and gas.
If you didn't, you have strongs grounds to negotiate with landlord. If you did, then there's a real problem unless it's technicals faults somewhere on the lines.

ShaShaBear

James 007 wrote: »

The OP has been in the place for 3 years. I am not questioning the OP here, but I always find with non irish people that they tend to go with the flow, use gas/elec to their hearts content and then only ask questions when the correct reading bill comes in the door. Only you OP can answer this question. You say you were in cheap accommodation, how was it heated, was it electrically heated. Assume electric cooker too. How much pressure did you put on the owner to ensure the correct reading was taken. Why didnt you take the reading and submit it yourself. Ive done this before and the bill was not even in my name. The cost is €111/month addtional, assuming 3 years, total amount €3,900. What were your previous bills like, do you have records. Just some points but only you OP will know whether you were negligent with regards usage or did you control you level of usage. If its the latter then you have every right to question it.

eurasian wrote: »

When you started renting you should have taken meter readings for bos electricity and gas.
If you didn't, you have strongs grounds to negotiate with landlord. If you did, then there's a real problem unless it's technicals faults somewhere on the lines.

Both of you seem to be missing the part where she has no access to do a meter reading as the meter is located in a different property that the landlord has denied her access to.

James 007

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Both of you seem to be missing the part where she has no access to do a meter reading as the meter is located in a different property that the landlord has denied her access to.

Well if it is in a different property, then I would ask the landlord for photographic evidence from the time I entered to the time I was leaving. Is the bill in the OP's name, this is key, if not the landlord doesn't stand a chance to get money back. The supply board may have taken a customer reading at some stage, also try and get hold of that and the date it was taken, ti may help