Invisible disabilities and the Please “Don’t Buggy in the Wheelchair Zone” campaig

monument

The Please Don’t Buggy in the Wheelchair Zone campaign reminds me of wheelchair-marked disabled car parking spaces and people just presuming the spaces are for wheel chair users. Dismissing people who “don’t look disabled” — who can’t walk very far are then looked at as if they are abusing the spots.

But the difference here is that National Transport Authority and the Department of Transport are backing the campaign with little to no idea or reference that they are making a problem worse for some people: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/please-dont-buggy-wheelchair-zone/

Not all mothers pushing prams are able bodied, especially after c-sections or other births which haven’t gone exactly perfect — should they stay at home with their new borns because the authorities and wheelchair groups can’t distinguish between them and a lazy able-bodied mother with an older child who can walk or take a seat on a bus?

cherryghost

There's similar backlash on their Facebook campaigns too mostly for the same reason. 1/3 of women have c-section for example so I would safely assume 1 in 3 women with buggies on a bus may require the area too.

The whole campaign stinks of ignorance and poor research on all parties involved

Dravokivich

In fairness, that's why they've brought in buses with a space clearly shown for both.

But then again, not enough room for twins, triplets...

L1011

The campaign name is terrible too - it sounds like some form of odd euphemism.

Gatling

Don't actually agree with this idea , it's taken years to see a proper wheelchair user drive for priority spaces ,and now all were hearing is the poor mother pushing a buggy ,
Section or no section how are user's and drivers decide who has a short term medical condition ,
And one thing I'm noticing on these FB pages or groups is lack or mention of fathers and careers using the space with a buggy ,
There is conditions that are invisible yes but do they need priority over some people with real physical disabilities ?

HonalD

Gatling wrote: »

There is conditions that are invisible yes but do they need priority over some people with real physical disabilities ?

I think what is being sought is equality of disability. Just because you’re not in a wheelchair doesn’t mean you are not disabled. It’s just not as obvious. All people who’s mobility is impaired should be positively supported.

server down

HonalD wrote: »

I think what is being sought is equality of disability. Just because you’re not in a wheelchair doesn’t mean you are not disabled. It’s just not as obvious. All people who’s mobility is impaired should be positively supported.

But that’s an actual wheelchair zone. For people who need wheelchairs. Clearly the people who have other disabilities not requiring wheelchairs are not in the same position as the people in wheelchairs needing to park in the wheelchair zone.

Sleeper12

I don't see what the confusion is. Anyone entitled to park in a disabled spot should have a badge displayed.

Carawaystick

Why are small children who can't walk and require a pram or buggy different to grown up people who require a wheelchair?

Cookie_Monster

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why are small children who can't walk and require a pram or buggy different to grown up people who require a wheelchair?

Because a buggy is a convenience not a necessity, unlike a wheelchair.

monument

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Because a buggy is a convenience not a necessity, unlike a wheelchair.

A buggy is just a convenience for new borns being transported, for example, by mothers who have just had c-sections?

HonalD

server down wrote: »

HonalD wrote: »

I think what is being sought is equality of disability. Just because you’re not in a wheelchair doesn’t mean you are not disabled. It’s just not as obvious. All people who’s mobility is impaired should be positively supported.

But that’s an actual wheelchair zone. For people who need wheelchairs. Clearly the people who have other disabilities not requiring wheelchairs are not in the same position as the people in wheelchairs needing to park in the wheelchair zone.

I was speaking in general about the issue, not about the specifics of the zones.

monument

Gatling wrote: »

Don't actually agree with this idea , it's taken years to see a proper wheelchair user drive for priority spaces ,and now all were hearing is the poor mother pushing a buggy ,
Section or no section how are user's and drivers decide who has a short term medical condition ,
And one thing I'm noticing on these FB pages or groups is lack or mention of fathers and careers using the space with a buggy ,
There is conditions that are invisible yes but do they need priority over some people with real physical disabilities ?

Physical disabilities or medical conditions aren’t real if they aren’t clear from the outside?

Bus drivers taking this approach will get themselves and their companies in hot water.

Jamie2k9

Not all mothers pushing prams are able bodied, especially after c-sections or other births which haven’t gone exactly perfect — should they stay at home with their new borns because the authorities and wheelchair groups can’t distinguish between them and a lazy able-bodied mother with an older child who can walk or take a seat on a bus?

You won't see many new Mums using public transport in the immediate time after birth.

wordofwarning

IMO Dublin Bus would have been promoting a better use of the wheelchair for both mothers and wheelchair users. I can't say I have been in a bus in the last 10 years, where a wheelchair user was left at the stop as a selfish mother was sitting there with her child in a pram. I would not be surprised if this campaign is a knee jerk reaction to a single complaint

What I see a regular basis is an old woman or man sitting in the wheelchair bay, not arsed to move for a mother in a pram. There are plenty of seats on the bus, but the OAP wants to sit in the wheelchair bay as they might have a trolley or for what appears to be no good reason ie the spare single seat beside the stairs is free. I only seen last month, a mother getting off a bus, as an OAP wasn't bothered to give them the wheelchair seat

monument

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You won't see many new Mums using public transport in the immediate time after birth.

Because you know from looking at these mums that they have not recently given birth or if they are still suffering from c-sections or not? How exactly do you know this?

Maybe these mums should just stay at home — don’t shop or don’t go to appointments etc?

Jamie2k9

monument wrote: »

Because you know from looking at these mums that they have not recently given birth or if they are still suffering from c-sections or not? How exactly do you know this?

Maybe these mums should just stay at home — don’t shop or don’t go to appointments etc?

No but in the real world most new mothers would avoid taking a new baby out to shop or on public transport where possible. It would be a last resort for many and I suspect the numbers which your argument are based on a pretty low.

Spanish Eyes

And there I was thinking that everyone with a child, disabled or not had a 7 seater monster and took up two spaces in every car park going.

AlekSmart

monument wrote: »

Physical disabilities or medical conditions aren’t real if they aren’t clear from the outside?

Bus drivers taking this approach will get themselves and their companies in hot water.

Most Busdrivers now encounter such issues an a regular basis,up to several times each day and,often,in circumstances which can be ill tempered,aggressive and defiant of any compromise or logic.

The Busdriver will always be the loser,whether in the opinion of the Wheelchair user or the Buggy pusher.

Should further interaction now be required from the Busdriver,it will inevitably lead to significant service delays as the opposing parties entrench for battle.

Currently,Irish law,does not allow for a Busdriver to require a Buggy pushing passenger to move,but instead allows the driver to "Request" compliance with the relevant signage.

However,the overall situation is now quite fluid following the UK Supreme Court judgement earlier this year,which has now imposed considerable additional duties on operators,whilst yet stopping short of allowing compulsion.

It is noteworthy that the UK Judgement is applicable to ALL vehicles,structures,and area's which have Wheelchair /Disabled spaces,such as Supermarket Car Parks etc.

A brief summation is available here....

https://www.supremecourt.uk/watch/uksc-2015-0025/judgment.html

With the full judgement here......

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0025.html

It is a long judgement from a 7 person Court,reminiscent of the old saying that "A Camel is a Horse designed by a Committee".

It is immediately obvious that their Lord/Ladyships are somewhat irregular Bus Passengers,if they actually believe that Busdrivers will be allowed to stop their engines and delay the journey,without suffering significant backlash from the other,non-disabled,farepaying passengers.

With the space available for Disabled use,being dictated by Engineering design parameters,along with the Commercial Realities of catering for other non-disabled customers,we are now reaching a point where unambiguous decisions are required,as it is increasingly difficult for Public Transport to be "ALL things to ALL men".

server down

monument wrote: »

Because you know from looking at these mums that they have not recently given birth or if they are still suffering from c-sections or not? How exactly do you know this?

Maybe these mums should just stay at home — don’t shop or don’t go to appointments etc?

Christ sake man the wheel chair zone is a priority zone for wheelchair users.

You can stroll on with a missing arm but if you don’t need a wheel chair that’s not the place to sit.

Hilly Bill

If the buggy can be folded up then it should be, but if not then it's first come first served.

Hilly Bill

server down wrote: »

But that’s an actual wheelchair zone. For people who need wheelchairs. Clearly the people who have other disabilities not requiring wheelchairs are not in the same position as the people in wheelchairs needing to park in the wheelchair zone.

A pram is a wheelchair, it's on wheel's and the person sitting in can't walk and needs someone to push them.

Gatling

monument wrote: »

Because you know from looking at these mums that they have not recently given birth or if they are still suffering from c-sections or not? How exactly do you know this?

Maybe these mums should just stay at home — don’t shop or don’t go to appointments etc?

So how do you suggest this is policed if a woman with a buggy said she had a section and won't move for a wheelchair user ,or vice versa .

You cant,

that's like me asking someone to move for my child who's registered as having a Disability but not physical obvious (not that I ever would)

Gatling

Hilly Bill wrote: »

A pram is a wheelchair, it's on wheel's and the person sitting in can't walk and needs someone to push them.

But a chair that isn't a medical necessity actually there is no reason for a buggy other than convenience .

Dravokivich

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If the buggy can be folded up then it should be, but if not then it's first come first served.

If it can't be, you'd have to wonder why they brought it on a bus. What would they do if there was already a buggy there? Which is so something that comes up.

monument

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No but in the real world most new mothers would avoid taking a new baby out to shop or on public transport where possible. It would be a last resort for many and I suspect the numbers which your argument are based on a pretty low.

Hilly Bill

Dravokivich wrote: »

If it can't be, you'd have to wonder why they brought it on a bus. What would they do if there was already a buggy there? Which is so something that comes up.

They would have to get the next bus same as if there was already a wheelchair on the bus and 2 more want to get on. Common sense gets first preference.

Gatling

Dravokivich wrote: »

If it can't be, you'd have to wonder why they brought it on a bus. What would they do if there was already a buggy there? Which is so something that comes up.

Simple play the poor mother who doesn't have a clue about the buggy they spent several hundred euros on and expect everyone else to fold or move

monument

server down wrote: »

Christ sake man the wheel chair zone is a priority zone for wheelchair users.

You can stroll on with a missing arm but if you don’t need a wheel chair that’s not the place to sit.

Christ sake man... your attitude seems to be: to hell with others who need to use the space... Or maybe these mothers and anybody else who needs a pram to bring their child with them should just stay at home — don’t shop or don’t go to appointments etc?

Gatling wrote: »

So how do you suggest this is policed if a woman with a buggy said she had a section and won't move for a wheelchair user ,or vice versa .

I could suggest the companies and state agencies don't see things so black and white and have a bit of cop on with the campaigns they support.

Mrs OBumble

monument wrote: »

Maybe these mums should just stay at home — don’t shop or don’t go to appointments etc?

Yes, actually they should be avoiding any unnecessary trips in the first six weeks. They have a newborn with very little immune system, and they themselves have a major wound that needs to heal: I've had major gynaecological surgery a good deal less invasive than c-section, and I didn't go on a bus for a good three weeks afterwards. Even then, it was very uncomfortable due to the amount of lateral movement (yes, I sat in the disabled seats, but was very prepared to move if anyone else needed them).

Shops deliver. So do friends and partners. And a woman who's had a c-section isn't allowed to lift more than about 1kg, so she's not going to be able to do much shopping anyways.

Public health nurses visit at home.

Taxis or being driven by family / friends are the best option for attending any unavoidable appointments.

Short walks in the neighbourhood are the best option for getting out of the house. Leave the cross town trips for later.



Over the years, I've had a variety of knee injuries. Some have seen me on crutches for up to a month. Others have been invisible, unless you watch me walk hobble. None have been long-term enough to qualify me for a disability car-parking badge. Every single time, though, I've been considerably less disabled than anyone who needs to use a wheelchair to get around: I could always get to seats in a bus that they couldn't get to.

Graham

monument wrote: »

I could suggest the companies and state agencies don't see things so black and white and have a bit of cop on with the campaigns they support.

I’m not sure “don’t buggy in the wheelchair zone unless you’re one of the tiny minority of buggy users with a genuine medical need” has quite the same impact.

The campaign is obviously targeted at the majority of buggy users who use the wheelchair space purely out of convenience.

monument

Graham wrote: »

I’m not sure “don’t buggy in the wheelchair zone unless you’re one of the tiny minority of buggy users with a genuine medical need” has quite the same impact.

The campaign is obviously targeted at the majority of buggy users who use the wheelchair space purely out of convenience.

And, going by the bus drivers on this thread and previous ones, there's nothing at all obvious to distinguish between people with invisible disabilities and medical conditions.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Yes, actually they should be avoiding any unnecessary trips in the first six weeks. They have a newborn with very little immune system, and they themselves have a major wound that needs to heal:

Not all trips are unnecessary, the effects can be longer than 6 weeks for people, and c-sections was an example (other people have back problems etc etc).

And, if we're talking about recommended times, three months is the recommended time that a baby should be kept in a flat pram... maybe car-less mothers and fathers should just stay at home in that time?

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Shops deliver. So do friends and partners. And a woman who's had a c-section isn't allowed to lift more than about 1kg, so she's not going to be able to do much shopping anyways.

Let me hazard a guess here: You've never been car-free with a new born in an area away from where your family and friends live?

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Taxis or being driven by family / friends are the best option for attending any unavoidable appointments.

Yes, because everybody is made of money to take taxis or has family / friends available for every time they need to go out.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Short walks in the neighbourhood are the best option for getting out of the house. Leave the cross town trips for later.

Bus trips for people who can't walk very far aren't always going to be cross town trips.

Jamie2k9

monument wrote: »

Individual or household?

liger

Graham wrote: »

I’m not sure “don’t buggy in the wheelchair zone unless you’re one of the tiny minority of buggy users with a genuine medical need” has quite the same impact.

DB were stung paying out a few years back because a driver forced a mother, who wouldn't fold down a buggy, off the bus to make way for a wheelchair, it turned out that the child had a medical condition and shouldn't have been taken out of the pram. Tens of thousands of Euro later and a policy change that means driver may only request if a buggy can moved/folded to allow a wheelchair user onto the bus.

Despite these ads, a driver can still do no more than ask. Also the entire phrasing is ridiculous, it's almost as bad to read as AIB "we're backing doing".

monument

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Individual or household?

Households, 2016 data.

Tombo2001

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Because a buggy is a convenience not a necessity, unlike a wheelchair.

I dont buy that.......

There is a thin line between a convenience and a necessity if thats the distinction you are making.

Have you tried to carry a baby, a carrier bag and walk alongside a 3 year for example to a bus stop that is half a mile away. A three year old who may themselves want to be carried along the way.

You dont have to be a c-section mother in pain to find that a difficult challenge.

This conversation is yet another example of where people are experts on their own problems/ challenges but willing to completely dismiss other peoples problems/ challenges.

Can i ask these people banging on about 'convenience'.....have you ever actually done this?

Tombo2001

And by the way folks - while we are on the subject of fuppin ridiculous stereotypes - dads do look after babies too......and just occasionally.....in between opening cans of lager and watching the premier league matches on sky morning noon and night.....just occasionally they push buggies too.

server down

monument wrote: »

Christ sake man... your attitude seems to be: to hell with others who need to use the space... Or maybe these mothers and anybody else who needs a pram to bring their child with them should just stay at home — don’t shop or don’t go to appointments etc?

It’s a priority area for people in wheelchairs. It should be policed as such. If you have a buggy, give way if a wheelchair user wants to get on.

I could suggest the companies and state agencies don't see things so black and white and have a bit of cop on with the campaigns they support.

I just see selfishness here. A wheelchair area that can be occupied by buggies is useless.

server down

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They would have to get the next bus same as if there was already a wheelchair on the bus and 2 more want to get on. Common sense gets first preference.

Your “common sense” makes the wheelchair space useless. They might as well call it a buggy space (wheelchairs off peak if there are no buggys)

Tombo2001

server down wrote: »

It’s a priority area for people in wheelchairs. It should be policed as such. If you have a buggy, give way if a wheelchair user wants to get on.




I just see selfishness here. A wheelchair area that can be occupied by buggies is useless.

Passengers With Buggies
Published on Wednesday, November 26, 2008
Wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for use of the wheelchair space, since this is the only place in which they can travel safely.

Low-floor buses are designed so that buggies can remain unfolded in the wheelchair space if it is free. Please make sure the buggy is safely positioned and the brake is on, unfolded buggies cannot travel in the gangway. You should be able to board any low-floor bus with a buggy. If the driver thinks that it is too crowded for you to board safely, he may refuse you boarding. The driver will not ask anybody already travelling to get off the bus to make room.

If someone in a wheelchair wishes to board when there is an unfolded buggy in the wheelchair space, the driver will ask you to fold the buggy and either put it in the luggage space or keep it by your side.

Thats fairly clearcut.

To be fair I dont see why parents should have a problem with that.

Though it should be a stipulation that the driver assist the parent in folding the buggy in this case, as you cant really fold a buggy with one hand and hold the baby with the other.

I was left in a tight spot one day when I went to fold the buggy. On this occasion on the NCR, I was trying to fold the buggy and holding the baby at the same time which I just couldnt do.

A gang of junkies on the bus insisted on holding the baby while I folded the buggy. It left me in a real pickle because they were off their heads, but at the same time they were the only ones on the bus who offerred to help - and I needed help.

ThisRegard

Tombo2001 wrote: »

And by the way folks - while we are on the subject of fuppin ridiculous stereotypes - dads do look after babies too......and just occasionally.....in between opening cans of lager and watching the premier league matches on sky morning noon and night.....just occasionally they push buggies too.

Exactly. I was about to post this when I saw your post. I've had the pleasure of both using buses and trains with a young baby in a buggy, it's an absolute pain in the ass and I'm pretty fit and able bodied. I remember transfering trains at Maynooth I think it was and having to carry the feckin thing, with baby and bags, over the foot bridge to the other platform in the pissing rain.

monument

monument wrote: »

The Please Don’t Buggy in the Wheelchair Zone campaign reminds me of wheelchair-marked disabled car parking spaces and people just presuming the spaces are for wheel chair users. Dismissing people who “don’t look disabled” — who can’t walk very far are then looked at as if they are abusing the spots.

But the difference here is that National Transport Authority and the Department of Transport are backing the campaign with little to no idea or reference that they are making a problem worse for some people: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/please-dont-buggy-wheelchair-zone/

Not all mothers pushing prams are able bodied, especially after c-sections or other births which haven’t gone exactly perfect — should they stay at home with their new borns because the authorities and wheelchair groups can’t distinguish between them and a lazy able-bodied mother with an older child who can walk or take a seat on a bus?

Look OP, you can't make every body happy no matters what you do. So do what you can to help the most vulnerable, and that is what they are doing.

Maybe the authority are doing the best practice, and maybe it is just a bonus that in doing this they can also make some other people who like to get out raged, happy by letting them get out raged.

Bacchus

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I don't see what the confusion is. Anyone entitled to park in a disabled spot should have a badge displayed.

I think you've missed what this is about (did you read the article or just see the headline?). This isn't about accessible parking spaces where you display your badge. This is about the wheelchair spaces on a bus.

The campaign itself is controversial in my eyes. On the one hand I appreciate that priority of those spaces should be given to those with literally no other option to sit elsewhere or "fold up their chair". On the other hand, it's a bit all or nothing. The example above about the child with the medical condition is a perfect one that shows that this isn't well thought out. I'd even have some sympathy for parents with strollers who then have to fold up a buggy while handling a small baby (on a moving bus and possibly crowded bus!) and then doing the reverse when they want to get off. Not to mention the potential risk to the safety of the baby during all this.

Hilly Bill

server down wrote: »

Your “common sense” makes the wheelchair space useless. They might as well call it a buggy space (wheelchairs off peak if there are no buggys)

Nope, you have missed the meaning of common sense.

liger

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Passengers With Buggies
Published on Wednesday, November 26, 2008
Wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for use of the wheelchair space, since this is the only place in which they can travel safely.

That's from 2008, policy has been updated a few times since.

It says priority, not a right of access to that space above all else.

Equality doesn't mean that you get preferential treatment over all others. So what are we aiming for? equality when it suits?

Tombo2001

liger wrote: »

That's from 2008, policy has been updated a few times since.

It says priority, not a right of access to that space above all else.

Equality doesn't mean that you get preferential treatment over all others. So what are we aiming for? equality when it suits?

Pls show us the policy before we start discussing how the policy should change.

Also - its up to Dublin Bus to enforce policy.

I dont see why it needs to be turned into a personal thing between wheelchair users and parents.

There should never be a stand off.

The rules are the rules, so therefore Dublin Bus needs to
(i) Make the rules clear
(ii) Enforce the rules.

Jamie2k9

monument wrote: »

Households, 2016 data.

Fair enough but such cases would still be rare in terms of blocking the space for that reason.

server down

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Nope, you have missed the meaning of common sense.

Have i? Your version of common sense would leave wheelchair users without much chance to get on most buses.

Hilly Bill

server down wrote: »

Have i? Your version of common sense would leave wheelchair users without much chance to get on most buses.

Not really, it's equally opportunities. A woman has a child in a buggy that can't be taken out for whatever reason has as much right as a person in a wheelchair who also can't get out of the chair. It's called common sense.

server down

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Not really, it's equally opportunities. A woman has a child in a buggy that can't be taken out for whatever reason has as much right as a person in a wheelchair who also can't get out of the chair. It's called common sense.

Repeating "common sense" isnt really an argument. And according to the new rules she doesnt.

We've gone from invisible disabilities, to all women with buggys btw.

Graham

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Not really, it's equally opportunities. A woman has a child in a buggy that can't be taken out for whatever reason has as much right as a person in a wheelchair who also can't get out of the chair. It's called common sense.

Common sense tells me the vast majority of buggy users are mobile, the overwhelming majority of wheelchair users are not.